Re: [dev-biblio] Re: [xbiblio-devel] csl changes

[Peter . Dudek]

> > Plus, I was thinking, should there be support for shortened journal
> > names? Like J. Clim. and then every one knows it is the Journal of
> > Climatology? Will be very tough to implement though, as I don't think
> > there even exists a list with all valid shortenings. Just a thought...
> 
> Yes, abbreviations for journal names are quite common. Implementation should
> not
> be very difficult. In a simple case each user can him/herself define a
> replacement (or alias) list
> (i.e. "Journal of Climatology" -> "J. Clim.")
> that can be switched on/off as the user likes.
> 
> Thanks for the idea.
> 
> Matthias Basler

There is a standard list of abbreviations. ISSN has published such a list for
many languages based on the ISO 4 standard. Here are the relevant references:

ISSN: http://www.issn.org:8080/pub/products/lstwa
ISO:
http://www.iso.org/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER=3569

I'm not particularly fond of the idea of forcing the user to make their own
definitions if a standardized set already exists.

My 0.2 cents.

Cheers,
Peter Dudek
Department of Cell Biology
University of Geneva
Switzerland

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Re: [dev-biblio] Re: [xbiblio-devel] csl changes

[Peter . Dudek]

Dear Bruce,

I sent a response concerning this issue to dev@bibliographic.openoffice.org, but
for some reason it doesn't appear to have gone through (especially noticeable
since a few of the list members are having a discussion on the subject several
hours after my post to the list). To paraphrase:

There is already standardized list of abbreviations. One such list is published
by ISSN and is based on the ISO 4 standard. Here are the relevant sources:

ISSN: http://www.issn.org:8080/pub/products/lstwa
ISO:
http://www.iso.org/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER=3569

Regards,
Peter Dudek
Department of Cell Biology
University of Geneva
Switzerland

> 
> On Feb 10, 2006, at 12:19 PM, Johan Kool wrote:
> 
> > There are two ways to take abbreviated journal names into account. Add 
> > an abbreviated title to the data, or let the citation processor 
> > abbreviate the name.
> 
> Correct.
> 
> > There are some pros and cons for each approach.
> >
> > Add abbreviated title to data:
> > - abbreviated title might not be present
> > - only one abbreviation, different styles might use/prefer different 
> > abbreviations
> 
> Hmm ... I hadn't thought about that one. Do styles specify how to 
> abbreviate journal titles? Do they include other periodicals (court 
> reporters, magazines, newspapers) too?
> 
> > + much easier for the citation processor to implement
> >
> > Let the citation processor abbreviate:
> > - making a full list of all abbreviations is a lot of work
> 
> And error prone? And consider the code involved in internationalizing 
> it.
> 
> > + title might always abbreviated (although maybe not always exactly 
> > correct) *
> > + each style can define its own preferred abbreviations
> >
> > *) This is the case if it's allowed to replace strings partly, e.g.
> > Journal -> J.
> > Climatology -> Clim.
> >
> > There are probably more things for this list. I'm curious which method 
> > you prefer. It seems to me that Bruce prefers the first. Matthias and 
> > me seemingly had the second option in mind.
> 
> I have no strong opinion at the moment. I suppose my immediate question 
> is whether CSL needs an abbreviatedTitle element, or whether the 
> attribute is enough. I've already added the latter.
> 
> > This whole abbreviation habit is a very annoying habit, and to be 
> > honest I think that journals would be wise to stop using it...
> 
> I agree. There are a lot of citation practices that I think are a 
> vestige of a time before computers. I wonder if this is one of them. I 
> am really reluctant to support some of those old features, like the 
> absolutely heinous practice in note citations of doing "op. cit." Every 
> time I read a book that uses that convention I find myself frustrated.
> 
> BTW, my name abbreviation example is "Federal Bureau of Investigation" 
> --> "FBI"
> 
> Bruce
> 
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Re: [dev-biblio] Re: [xbiblio-devel] csl changes

[Bruce D'Arcus]

On Feb 10, 2006, at 8:24 AM, Matthias Basler wrote:

Yes, abbreviations for journal names are quite common. Implementation 
should not

be very difficult. In a simple case each user can him/herself define a
replacement (or alias) list
(i.e. "Journal of Climatology" -> "J. Clim.")
that can be switched on/off as the user likes.


I think the solution for csl is simple:



... or maybe call the attribute "variant."

That way the processor could look for an abbreviated title, and if not 
there, default to the simple title.


In terms of how to handle that in data, to me it's clear that 
periodicals and such ought to be normalized as full resources/objects. 
So if you're using a RDBMS, there's a table called "collections" which 
includes periodicals.  That table would then have both "title" and 
"short-title" columns.


Likewise, in an RDF representation, you'd do:

http://ex.net/journals#x";>
  Some Full Journal
  S. F. J.


The same issue applies to corporate/organizational names.

Bruce

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Re: [dev-biblio] Re: [xbiblio-devel] csl changes

[Matthias Basler]

Zitat von Johan Kool <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Plus, I was thinking, should there be support for shortened journal
> names? Like J. Clim. and then every one knows it is the Journal of
> Climatology? Will be very tough to implement though, as I don't think
> there even exists a list with all valid shortenings. Just a thought...

Yes, abbreviations for journal names are quite common. Implementation should not
be very difficult. In a simple case each user can him/herself define a
replacement (or alias) list
(i.e. "Journal of Climatology" -> "J. Clim.")
that can be switched on/off as the user likes.

Thanks for the idea.

Matthias Basler
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [dev-biblio] Re: [xbiblio-devel] csl changes

[Bruce D'Arcus]

On Feb 9, 2006, at 4:37 AM, Matthias Basler wrote:


I'd definitely prefer the version below, for exactly this reason.


OK, then, I modified the schema and wrote an XSLT to mostly convert the 
old examples.


For now I've put it all here:



Once I stabilize everything (schema, examples, directory and file 
naming conventions, etc.), I'll move it to the Sourceforge site. While 
I don't expect to make any huge changes at this point, please get me 
feedback on any of the above.


The one feature I'm still working on figuring out is better 
international support. I've been talking to a guy who deals with 
Japanese texts on this.


As I said, this is a quick-and-dirty way to do an online repository 
that I think has promise. In everyday use I'd like my formatter to be 
able to grab the needed style from online, and then cache them. Alf 
mentioned on his blog awhile back that Endnote ships will thousands of 
styles, which seems kind of silly when you consider that a given author 
may only ever use a handful of them.


Next step is to figure out how to create a Ruby and/or Python 
CitationStyle object out of these.


Bruce

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Re: [dev-biblio] Re: [xbiblio-devel] csl changes

[Matthias Basler]

Zitat von Bruce D'Arcus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


> The final issue is about the prefix/suffix thing. Should they be plain
> text (as they are now), or should I allow them to have formatting
> attached to them?

I'd definitely prefer the version below, for exactly this reason. Bear in mind
that the XML file format is something that is to last, and that needs to be
open for future extensions. Even if formatting isn't a topic now, it might
become in two or three years. Changing a GUI is easy, but having to switch to a
new incompatible XML schema then will produce much more pain.

Matthias Basler
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [dev-biblio] Re: [xbiblio-devel] csl changes

[Bruce D'Arcus]

On Feb 8, 2006, at 6:12 PM, Johan Kool wrote:

Focus on getting it easily readable for your own parser, as well as 
the human eye. If it works for that, it works for a GUI too.


OK, then, I think that's settled.

The final issue is about the prefix/suffix thing. Should they be plain 
text (as they are now), or should I allow them to have formatting 
attached to them?


If the latter, it'd look like this:

 


   (
  ) 


  .



  :

 

It's more verbose and difficult to handle, but not significantly so.

For comparison, the alternative would be:

 





 

Bruce

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