Re: Ajax libraries: let's wait a bit
Ugo Cei wrote: Il giorno 08/nov/05, alle ore 11:06, Sylvain Wallez ha scritto: The framework that currently satisfies these constraints is the Dojo toolkit. It is packed with impressive features, is developped by a community that functions very much like Apache and has an Apache-compatible licence. Have you seen the new Dojo rich text editing widget [1]? Looks simpler (for most forms you don't need lots of fancy editing features) and more robust than HTMLArea. And it works in Safari too. Ugo [1]: http://dojotoolkit.org/docs/rich_text.html Wow! Goodbye HTMLArea! Hello Dojo! :-) Best Regards, Antonio Gallardo.
Re: Ajax libraries: let's wait a bit
Andreas Hochsteger wrote: Hi Sylvain and other AJAX gurus ;-) I wonder, if you heard of Taconite [1] which seems to have released 1.0 recently? It is licensed under the Apache License, but I don't know, if it does what we need. It merely handles posting a form and inserting Ajax resquest results into the page. And it does that in a very strange way: to import the Ajax result in the page document, it dynamically builds some JavaScript code that recreate the element hierarchy. Why don't they simply use regular DOM calls as we do in CForms, I don't know. Additionally to the list of AJAX libraries already posted [2] I found an other one in [3]. But unfortunately Taconite isn't mentioned in both lists. The current problem is that every day a new Ajax framework is announced, and most often, it's a dozen lines of JavaScript which defines yet another wrapper around XmlHttpRequest. If we choose to use an external library, this should be something serious that brings more than that, and is not a one man show that will be dead tomorrow. The framework that currently satisfies these constraints is the Dojo toolkit. It is packed with impressive features, is developped by a community that functions very much like Apache and has an Apache-compatible licence. Sylvain -- Sylvain WallezAnyware Technologies http://people.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com Apache Software Foundation Member Research Technology Director
Re: Ajax libraries: let's wait a bit
Il giorno 08/nov/05, alle ore 11:06, Sylvain Wallez ha scritto: The framework that currently satisfies these constraints is the Dojo toolkit. It is packed with impressive features, is developped by a community that functions very much like Apache and has an Apache-compatible licence. Have you seen the new Dojo rich text editing widget [1]? Looks simpler (for most forms you don't need lots of fancy editing features) and more robust than HTMLArea. And it works in Safari too. Ugo [1]: http://dojotoolkit.org/docs/rich_text.html -- Ugo Cei Tech Blog: http://agylen.com/ Open Source Zone: http://oszone.org/ Wine Food Blog: http://www.divinocibo.it/
Re: Ajax libraries: let's wait a bit
Ugo Cei wrote: Il giorno 08/nov/05, alle ore 11:06, Sylvain Wallez ha scritto: The framework that currently satisfies these constraints is the Dojo toolkit. It is packed with impressive features, is developped by a community that functions very much like Apache and has an Apache-compatible licence. Have you seen the new Dojo rich text editing widget [1]? Yup, I'm subscribed to the Dojo lists and follow everything :-) I also fell in love with their fisheye list [2]! Sylvain [1]: http://dojotoolkit.org/docs/rich_text.html [2] http://dojotoolkit.org/~alex/dojo/trunk/demos/widget/Fisheye.html -- Sylvain WallezAnyware Technologies http://people.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com Apache Software Foundation Member Research Technology Director
Re: Ajax libraries: let's wait a bit
Sylvain Wallez wrote: Ugo Cei wrote: Il giorno 08/nov/05, alle ore 11:06, Sylvain Wallez ha scritto: The framework that currently satisfies these constraints is the Dojo toolkit. It is packed with impressive features, is developped by a community that functions very much like Apache and has an Apache-compatible licence. Have you seen the new Dojo rich text editing widget [1]? Yup, I'm subscribed to the Dojo lists and follow everything :-) I also fell in love with their fisheye list [2]! Hmm, doesn't seem to be working, at least not in my Firefox. I assume it's supposed to do something like the menu on my site: http://lojjic.net ? Looking at their HTML source it's difficult to even call it HTML, there are so many custom presentational attributes. If this approach is indicative of Dojo as a whole I'd stay away from it. Sylvain [1]: http://dojotoolkit.org/docs/rich_text.html [2] http://dojotoolkit.org/~alex/dojo/trunk/demos/widget/Fisheye.html
Re: Ajax libraries: let's wait a bit
Jason Johnston wrote: Sylvain Wallez wrote: Ugo Cei wrote: Il giorno 08/nov/05, alle ore 11:06, Sylvain Wallez ha scritto: The framework that currently satisfies these constraints is the Dojo toolkit. It is packed with impressive features, is developped by a community that functions very much like Apache and has an Apache-compatible licence. Have you seen the new Dojo rich text editing widget [1]? Yup, I'm subscribed to the Dojo lists and follow everything :-) I also fell in love with their fisheye list [2]! Hmm, doesn't seem to be working, at least not in my Firefox. I assume it's supposed to do something like the menu on my site: http://lojjic.net ? Yup. Nice site! Looking at their HTML source it's difficult to even call it HTML, there are so many custom presentational attributes. If this approach is indicative of Dojo as a whole I'd stay away from it. I couldn't find in your web page how is defined the menu. BTW, I liked the comment in the page's source code :-) Sylvain -- Sylvain WallezAnyware Technologies http://people.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com Apache Software Foundation Member Research Technology Director
Re: Ajax libraries: let's wait a bit
On Tue, 2005-11-08 at 19:13 +0100, Sylvain Wallez wrote: Jason Johnston wrote: Sylvain Wallez wrote: Ugo Cei wrote: Il giorno 08/nov/05, alle ore 11:06, Sylvain Wallez ha scritto: The framework that currently satisfies these constraints is the Dojo toolkit. It is packed with impressive features, is developped by a community that functions very much like Apache and has an Apache-compatible licence. Have you seen the new Dojo rich text editing widget [1]? Yup, I'm subscribed to the Dojo lists and follow everything :-) I also fell in love with their fisheye list [2]! Hmm, doesn't seem to be working, at least not in my Firefox. I assume it's supposed to do something like the menu on my site: http://lojjic.net ? Yup. Nice site! Thanks :-) Someday it will even be Cocoon-based (AxKit right now). Looking at their HTML source it's difficult to even call it HTML, there are so many custom presentational attributes. If this approach is indicative of Dojo as a whole I'd stay away from it. I couldn't find in your web page how is defined the menu. Sorry the HTML is unformatted, that makes it hard to examine. It's a plain ol' HTML unordered list with some JS and CSS applied. See https://svn.lojjic.net/ScriptLibrary/trunk/OSXBar-doc.html BTW, I liked the comment in the page's source code :-) Ha! Forgot that was in there.
Re: Ajax libraries: let's wait a bit
Hi Sylvain and other AJAX gurus ;-)
I wonder, if you heard of Taconite [1] which seems to have released 1.0
recently?
It is licensed under the Apache License, but I don't know, if it does
what we need.
Additionally to the list of AJAX libraries already posted [2] I found an
other one in [3].
But unfortunately Taconite isn't mentioned in both lists.
Cheers,
Andreas
[1] http://taconite.sourceforge.net/
[2] http://wiki.osafoundation.org/bin/view/Projects/AjaxLibraries
[3] http://ajaxpatterns.org/Ajax_Frameworks
Sylvain Wallez wrote:
Hi all,
A few days ago, I raised some concerns [1] about the Scriptaculous
JavaScript library which we started to use in the Ajax block, because of
modifications made to JavaScript base classes made by the underlying
Prototype library on which it is based.
I had no satisfying answer on the Scriptaculous mailing-list, and
removing the base classes extensions in Prototype would mean rewriting a
lot of things in Scriptaculous and is thus very unlikely to happen.
Furthermore, I also wanted to use the Sortable [2] class for CForms
repeaters, but had to make important modifications to the class itself
for this to work with CForms because the conventions used are different.
Considering this, I decided that Scriptaculous was a wrong choice and
looked to other alternatives.
The most promising so far is the Dojo Toolkit [3] :
- it has a very cool load on demand feature that allows to have only
bootstrap script tags in the page, and then load other scripts when
they are needed using require('foo.bar.baz'). A must have in Cocoon
where each block may bring its own client-side scripts. Also in CForms
where you do not want e.g. to have htmlarea and calendar loaded in all
pages if not used in these pages.
- it is not only about cool effects: it provides a number of data
structures, can use iframes when xmlhttprequest is not present, tackles
the browser history problem in Ajax apps, etc.
- its development is community-driven, even if the original creator
plays the benevolent dictator
- it has an interesting test system that uses Rhino, and the ability to
assemble and compress a number of files in a single one to speedup
things in production.
The current drawback of Dojo is that the all the spiffy effects are
there (and more [4]), but lack a close integration with background page
update. But that should be a couple of classes.
All this to say that before making a choice for a client-side JS library
that more and more blocks are likely to use with the progression of Ajax
needs, we need to take a bit of time to find the pros and cons of the
various alternatives.
As 2.1.8 will be released soon, I will rollback changes to the CForms JS
library so that is uses the little home-grown stuff I wrote back in
July. I will also remove the Ajax examples that rely on Scriptaculous
(sorry Jeremy!), which will be reinstalled once we've taken the time to
make a choice.
Thoughts?
Sylvain
[1] http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-devm=112921787207346w=2
[2] http://script.aculo.us/demos/ajax/sortable_elements
[3] http://dojotoolkit.org/
[4]
http://dojotoolkit.org/~alex/dojo/trunk/tests/widget/test_FisheyeList.html
Re: Ajax libraries: let's wait a bit
Hi Sylvain
I +1 your decision to roll back for the release of 2.1.8, and am very
glad you found this problem in time.
I will start brushing up on Dojo !!
best regards
Jeremy
On 15 Oct 2005, at 13:40, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
Hi all,
A few days ago, I raised some concerns [1] about the Scriptaculous
JavaScript library which we started to use in the Ajax block,
because of modifications made to JavaScript base classes made by
the underlying Prototype library on which it is based.
I had no satisfying answer on the Scriptaculous mailing-list, and
removing the base classes extensions in Prototype would mean
rewriting a lot of things in Scriptaculous and is thus very
unlikely to happen. Furthermore, I also wanted to use the Sortable
[2] class for CForms repeaters, but had to make important
modifications to the class itself for this to work with CForms
because the conventions used are different.
Considering this, I decided that Scriptaculous was a wrong choice
and looked to other alternatives.
The most promising so far is the Dojo Toolkit [3] :
- it has a very cool load on demand feature that allows to have
only bootstrap script tags in the page, and then load other
scripts when they are needed using require('foo.bar.baz'). A must
have in Cocoon where each block may bring its own client-side
scripts. Also in CForms where you do not want e.g. to have htmlarea
and calendar loaded in all pages if not used in these pages.
- it is not only about cool effects: it provides a number of data
structures, can use iframes when xmlhttprequest is not present,
tackles the browser history problem in Ajax apps, etc.
- its development is community-driven, even if the original creator
plays the benevolent dictator
- it has an interesting test system that uses Rhino, and the
ability to assemble and compress a number of files in a single one
to speedup things in production.
The current drawback of Dojo is that the all the spiffy effects are
there (and more [4]), but lack a close integration with background
page update. But that should be a couple of classes.
All this to say that before making a choice for a client-side JS
library that more and more blocks are likely to use with the
progression of Ajax needs, we need to take a bit of time to find
the pros and cons of the various alternatives.
As 2.1.8 will be released soon, I will rollback changes to the
CForms JS library so that is uses the little home-grown stuff I
wrote back in July. I will also remove the Ajax examples that rely
on Scriptaculous (sorry Jeremy!), which will be reinstalled once
we've taken the time to make a choice.
Thoughts?
Sylvain
[1] http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-
devm=112921787207346w=2
[2] http://script.aculo.us/demos/ajax/sortable_elements
[3] http://dojotoolkit.org/
[4] http://dojotoolkit.org/~alex/dojo/trunk/tests/widget/
test_FisheyeList.html
--
Sylvain WallezAnyware Technologies
http://people.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
Apache Software Foundation Member Research Technology Director
smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: Ajax libraries: let's wait a bit
If you haven't seen this yet, this comparison of toolkits may be handy: http://wiki.osafoundation.org/bin/view/Projects/AjaxLibraries Has anyone looked at DWR? Mark On 15 Oct 2005, at 18:23, Pier Fumagalli wrote: On 15 Oct 2005, at 17:51, Sylvain Wallez wrote: Pier Fumagalli wrote: On 15 Oct 2005, at 13:40, Sylvain Wallez wrote: The current drawback of Dojo is that the all the spiffy effects are there (and more [4]), but lack a close integration with background page update. But that should be a couple of classes And that it takes currently between 4 to 5 seconds to initialize on my Safari... That's because you're loading the uncompressed version, i.e. a lot of uncompressed scripts are being loaded dynamically. Ah, that said, though, it seems to be lacking of support for Safari in lost of places... I tried Drag and Drop and DatePicker, for example, and while they work in Mozilla, they don't on Safari. Even the example you sent (FishEye) doesn't hide the labels correctly on Safari (while it does on Mozilla). That said, the Editor works on Safari as well (apart from saving). Pier
Ajax libraries: let's wait a bit
Hi all,
A few days ago, I raised some concerns [1] about the Scriptaculous
JavaScript library which we started to use in the Ajax block, because of
modifications made to JavaScript base classes made by the underlying
Prototype library on which it is based.
I had no satisfying answer on the Scriptaculous mailing-list, and
removing the base classes extensions in Prototype would mean rewriting a
lot of things in Scriptaculous and is thus very unlikely to happen.
Furthermore, I also wanted to use the Sortable [2] class for CForms
repeaters, but had to make important modifications to the class itself
for this to work with CForms because the conventions used are different.
Considering this, I decided that Scriptaculous was a wrong choice and
looked to other alternatives.
The most promising so far is the Dojo Toolkit [3] :
- it has a very cool load on demand feature that allows to have only
bootstrap script tags in the page, and then load other scripts when
they are needed using require('foo.bar.baz'). A must have in Cocoon
where each block may bring its own client-side scripts. Also in CForms
where you do not want e.g. to have htmlarea and calendar loaded in all
pages if not used in these pages.
- it is not only about cool effects: it provides a number of data
structures, can use iframes when xmlhttprequest is not present, tackles
the browser history problem in Ajax apps, etc.
- its development is community-driven, even if the original creator
plays the benevolent dictator
- it has an interesting test system that uses Rhino, and the ability to
assemble and compress a number of files in a single one to speedup
things in production.
The current drawback of Dojo is that the all the spiffy effects are
there (and more [4]), but lack a close integration with background page
update. But that should be a couple of classes.
All this to say that before making a choice for a client-side JS library
that more and more blocks are likely to use with the progression of Ajax
needs, we need to take a bit of time to find the pros and cons of the
various alternatives.
As 2.1.8 will be released soon, I will rollback changes to the CForms JS
library so that is uses the little home-grown stuff I wrote back in
July. I will also remove the Ajax examples that rely on Scriptaculous
(sorry Jeremy!), which will be reinstalled once we've taken the time to
make a choice.
Thoughts?
Sylvain
[1] http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-devm=112921787207346w=2
[2] http://script.aculo.us/demos/ajax/sortable_elements
[3] http://dojotoolkit.org/
[4]
http://dojotoolkit.org/~alex/dojo/trunk/tests/widget/test_FisheyeList.html
--
Sylvain WallezAnyware Technologies
http://people.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
Apache Software Foundation Member Research Technology Director
Re: Ajax libraries: let's wait a bit
On 15 Oct 2005, at 13:40, Sylvain Wallez wrote: The current drawback of Dojo is that the all the spiffy effects are there (and more [4]), but lack a close integration with background page update. But that should be a couple of classes And that it takes currently between 4 to 5 seconds to initialize on my Safari... Pier smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: Ajax libraries: let's wait a bit
Pier Fumagalli wrote: On 15 Oct 2005, at 13:40, Sylvain Wallez wrote: The current drawback of Dojo is that the all the spiffy effects are there (and more [4]), but lack a close integration with background page update. But that should be a couple of classes And that it takes currently between 4 to 5 seconds to initialize on my Safari... That's because you're loading the uncompressed version, i.e. a lot of uncompressed scripts are being loaded dynamically. Sylvain -- Sylvain WallezAnyware Technologies http://people.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com Apache Software Foundation Member Research Technology Director
Re: Ajax libraries: let's wait a bit
On 15 Oct 2005, at 17:51, Sylvain Wallez wrote: Pier Fumagalli wrote: On 15 Oct 2005, at 13:40, Sylvain Wallez wrote: The current drawback of Dojo is that the all the spiffy effects are there (and more [4]), but lack a close integration with background page update. But that should be a couple of classes And that it takes currently between 4 to 5 seconds to initialize on my Safari... That's because you're loading the uncompressed version, i.e. a lot of uncompressed scripts are being loaded dynamically. Ah, that said, though, it seems to be lacking of support for Safari in lost of places... I tried Drag and Drop and DatePicker, for example, and while they work in Mozilla, they don't on Safari. Even the example you sent (FishEye) doesn't hide the labels correctly on Safari (while it does on Mozilla). That said, the Editor works on Safari as well (apart from saving). Pier smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
