Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source Sustainability

[Jarek Potiuk]

I cannot agree more with all the points you raised, DW. Those reflect
very well my understanding of ASF role and what we can bring to the
table and what are the important parts of what we can advocate for.

>From my side, I would like to bring to the "Practical" workshop (I
sent context to organizers to see how they see it as a topic but I
will explain it here as well). I have a feeling that this might be the
practical side of some of the points raised by DW :)

The points that I wanted to raise at the workshop was about some of
the aspects of putting in practice what DW described above:

1) making sure that community-driven process is established and some
rules of participation are well understood and followed by all
involved parties (individual contributors and stakeholders in projects
particularly)
2) empowering more individual contributors who are part of the
community and making it replicable to have a model where those
contributors (and future ones) can remain independent, and can afford
spending a lot of (full?) time on being part of the community and can
make decent living from that - at the same time providing stronger
vendor-neutrality properties
3) ways how 3rd-parties can be involved without taking over the
relationships between contributors and stakeholders
4) practical ways to achieve that  - I have some use-cases and
relationships already established that might show how this can be
possible (based on my example) and proposals what can be done in the
future

J.


On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 1:08 PM Dirk-Willem van Gulik
 wrote:
>
> So I think there are a couple of things I'd personally would like to hit / 
> speak to at this event. In part as we have other parts of the industry 
> approaching this much more from a money/company driven (or take your 
> responsibility) perspective. In priority order:
>
> 1) "Community over Code" and good governance standards
>
> Software in general, and open source software in particular, is becoming key 
> to civic society - these days you cannot run a country (or even participate 
> in the democratic process on the legislative side ) without it.
>
> That means that, like all industries that rose to importance, society 
> increasingly needs to rely on & trust "us". Or ensure it can trust us by 
> regulation (in a lot of countries - industrial regulation (as opposed to self 
> regulation, guilds, etc) started to appear when steam-boilers went bang in 
> the middle of populated areas).
>
> We're simply too important to ignore.
>
> In apache - we understand a lot of this already very well - and have a 
> culture (community over code) and a set of checks and balances, or 
> governance, (votes for releases, process, security policies) that is 
> conductive to deserving that trust.
>
> We do not 'sling code onto github' or over a wall and call it `open source'-- 
> but rather insist that there is a community behind it. Or retire it (to the 
> attic) when there is not -- and it would become a risk or liability because 
> of no maintenance, etc.
>
> =>  so I would like to further this "community over code" notion.
>
> And emphasise that just `throwing code over the wall' is not what helps build 
> a body of (civic, or otherwise) technology that can be the foundations of a 
> digital public infrastructure or society.
>
> 2) "capacity and capability"
>
> Software is unique and odd - in that you can make perfect copies. And that 
> the fact that you use it `too' comes at virtually no cost to me. And if you 
> do & feed me back some small improvement, bug report or something - it 
> probably is a win-win for me to share it. However that also means that you 
> need relatively few developers at its core.
>
> This gives rise to two risks you need to negate. Firstly simply that of 
> knowledge capture and sustainability (capacity is not an issue - few are 
> needed). Which is not always in the interest of the corporate funders of the 
> volunteers (e.g. in apache). Nor in the interst of any corporate funders 
> (period) -- e.g. in cases where sponsors buy board-seats or strategic control 
> of open source houses.
>
> But secondly - that of ensuring that a sufficiently wide body of people 
> builds up the capability to participate with, and over time replace,  this 
> relatively small group of core developers. Especially in the light of SaaS 
> and similar technologie which curtails how many people are close enough to 
> the coal face to pick up the needed knowledge. Or at companies; where the 
> existence of readily available large solutions makes picking up on that skill 
> less needed.
>
> So in a way to break through a `fatal' aspect of well build technology - that 
> you do not need to know about it anymore.
>
> => so. would like to argue for physical places, of sufficient size  
> to build the right human culture, to work, learn and build these critical 
> skills.
>
> and that this is _NOT_ the problem of open source - but the 
> responsibility 

Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source Sustainability

[Dirk-Willem van Gulik]

So I think there are a couple of things I'd personally would like to hit / 
speak to at this event. In part as we have other parts of the industry 
approaching this much more from a money/company driven (or take your 
responsibility) perspective. In priority order:

1) "Community over Code" and good governance standards

Software in general, and open source software in particular, is becoming key to 
civic society - these days you cannot run a country (or even participate in the 
democratic process on the legislative side ) without it.

That means that, like all industries that rose to importance, society 
increasingly needs to rely on & trust "us". Or ensure it can trust us by 
regulation (in a lot of countries - industrial regulation (as opposed to self 
regulation, guilds, etc) started to appear when steam-boilers went bang in the 
middle of populated areas).

We're simply too important to ignore.

In apache - we understand a lot of this already very well - and have a culture 
(community over code) and a set of checks and balances, or governance, (votes 
for releases, process, security policies) that is conductive to deserving that 
trust. 

We do not 'sling code onto github' or over a wall and call it `open source'-- 
but rather insist that there is a community behind it. Or retire it (to the 
attic) when there is not -- and it would become a risk or liability because of 
no maintenance, etc.

=>  so I would like to further this "community over code" notion.

And emphasise that just `throwing code over the wall' is not what helps build a 
body of (civic, or otherwise) technology that can be the foundations of a 
digital public infrastructure or society.

2) "capacity and capability"

Software is unique and odd - in that you can make perfect copies. And that the 
fact that you use it `too' comes at virtually no cost to me. And if you do & 
feed me back some small improvement, bug report or something - it probably is a 
win-win for me to share it. However that also means that you need relatively 
few developers at its core.

This gives rise to two risks you need to negate. Firstly simply that of 
knowledge capture and sustainability (capacity is not an issue - few are 
needed). Which is not always in the interest of the corporate funders of the 
volunteers (e.g. in apache). Nor in the interst of any corporate funders 
(period) -- e.g. in cases where sponsors buy board-seats or strategic control 
of open source houses.

But secondly - that of ensuring that a sufficiently wide body of people builds 
up the capability to participate with, and over time replace,  this relatively 
small group of core developers. Especially in the light of SaaS and similar 
technologie which curtails how many people are close enough to the coal face to 
pick up the needed knowledge. Or at companies; where the existence of readily 
available large solutions makes picking up on that skill less needed. 

So in a way to break through a `fatal' aspect of well build technology - that 
you do not need to know about it anymore.

=> so. would like to argue for physical places, of sufficient size  to 
build the right human culture, to work, learn and build these critical skills.

and that this is _NOT_ the problem of open source - but the 
responsibility of society.

This is not something uncommon - we have plenty of industrial areas where 
countries build & keep strategic and tactical capcity. And in Europe - this is 
increasingly done pan-european.

3) "Software matters too much"

Software matters too much for communities and societies -- so I would 
personally not want to allow  large corporate interest buy themselves control 
of this. 

I am worried about a self amplifying and 'fiscally welcome' pattern; where we 
blame some industry for a problem in society. And were we then expect 'them' to 
resolve this; or pay for something as some sort of penance. But in return then 
effectively allows the existing and richest players get even more control over 
the playing field. 

As opposed to letting society set & enforce their vision of what is right. And 
either pick up the tab for that - or tax/fine those that do not comply -and- 
then allow society to choose where to invest that money  in. Rather than let 
the inmates run the asylum & direct the funding.

Apache is in a vey good position here - we are one of the defacto industry 
bodies - but unlike most - we are a community of (people) volunteer(ed by their 
employers dujour) - not a set of companies. In many ways we are more like the 
IEEE, the IETF, the institute of chartered engineers or a medical society - 
-than say, the GSMA or the W3C. 

And we have a stellar track record when it comes to resisting & neutering such 
corporate funding / direction attemts.

But the corollary/downside of that is that we're also ill equipped to do the 
`boring grunt work' that is often needed once things become so key to society. 
Such as secretariat services, testing, 

Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source Sustainability

[Jean-Baptiste Onofré]

Hi Jarek,

1.1 - Agree, my proposal is more attending
2.1 - it's interesting. As Karaf is also cloud runtime, I think we
have some fuel here. I can talk to Funs from Cloudstack. I think it
would be great to have both the stack standpoint, and the
runtime/application standpoint as well.
3.4 - OK I leave it to you then

Regards
JB

On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 12:46 PM Jarek Potiuk  wrote:
>
> 3.4. I will be writing a (short) proposal on what I would like to
> cover and share it here before sending it to them (I got contact from
> DW).
>
> 1.1 - is a bit vague to me (and I would rather be a more passive
> listener as I am not sure if I have anything to come up with)
> 2.1 - is interesting, but I think it would be great if someone from
> cloudstack takes an active part in it. There were some really
> interesting talks from Cloudstack  at ApacheCon's last day and I had
> nice conversations there - they have a really interesting stakeholder
> setup  and in Cloudstack and possibly that would be a great input.
> Maybe someone from cloudstack is listening ? Or if not I can reach out
> to the speakers I spoke to I think :)
>
> J,
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 12:26 PM Jean-Baptiste Onofré  
> wrote:
> >
> > By the way, I'm pretty interested to participate on these workshops:
> >
> > 1.1 - Open Source Processors for the Cloud Continuum
> > 2.1 - Open Source Software and Cloud Services and Applications: On the
> > way to more interoperable cloud services
> > 3.4 - Exploring practical solutions to ensure long term sustainability
> > of open source software
> >
> > I chatted today with some Eclipse Foundation guys: they plan to be
> > there as well.
> >
> > Thoughts ?
> >
> > Regards
> > JB
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 11:38 AM Jarek Potiuk  wrote:
> > >
> > > Yep. Thanks DW :)
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 10:43 AM Christofer Dutz
> > >  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for taking this coordination over.
> > > >
> > > > They did disarm my worries, that the panelists would be from the 
> > > > industry. It seems this is not the case.
> > > >
> > > > But they do explicitly welcome suggestions for people to be acting as 
> > > > panelist on these sessions.
> > > > So, we can be more actively involved. If we want to.
> > > >
> > > > And I agree .. this is not something we can sit out like an ApacheCon 
> > > > CFP and submit ideas a minute before the deadline.
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > > From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik 
> > > > Date: Thursday, 27. October 2022 at 10:24
> > > > To: dev@community.apache.org 
> > > > Subject: Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source 
> > > > Sustainability
> > > > I've been in touch with the various organizers (who do not seem to be 
> > > > that organised).
> > > >
> > > > Happy to bundle things once we reach some sort of conclusion here. But 
> > > > suspect we need to do this in the next hours and days; not week.
> > > >
> > > > That said - these meetings are open - so anyone can 'show up' and 
> > > > participate. In many ways this type of meeting where the EC tries to 
> > > > inform itself are very much in a spirit akin to open source; just show 
> > > > up, contribute meaningfully, constructively and have 
> > > > knowledge/information to bring.
> > > >
> > > > Dw
> > > >
> > > > > On 26 Oct 2022, at 23:14, Jarek Potiuk  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Do you have a specific contact or conversation you can forward? Or is
> > > > > it a generic address we should find ourselves?
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 10:55 PM Christofer Dutz
> > > > >  wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Hi all,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I think we probably should at least tell them as soon as possible, 
> > > > >> that we want to attend and which seessions, which people would be 
> > > > >> willing to participate.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> As I mentioned, unfortunately I won’t be able to attend.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Chris
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> From: Jean-Baptiste Onofré 
> > > > >> Date: Wednesday, 26. October 2022 at 19:42
> > > > >> To: dev@community.apache.org 
> > > > >> Subject: Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source 
> > > > >> Sustainability
> > > > >> Hi Chris,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I can be there as well if needed.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Regards
> > > > >> JB
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 10:44 AM Christofer Dutz
> > > > >>  wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Hi all,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> as I attended the last set of workshops in pre-pandemic times, it 
> > > > >>> seems the European Commission is continuing to try to understand 
> > > > >>> open-source.
> > > > >>> In this quest it seems they are planning on doing a set of 
> > > > >>> workshops on a one-day session:
> > > > >>> https://swforum.eu/events/open-source-workshops-computing-sustainability
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> As last time Willem and I traveled there as we didn’t want the 
> > > > >>> corporates to take over the narrative and explain to the European 
> > > 

Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source Sustainability

[Jarek Potiuk]

3.4. I will be writing a (short) proposal on what I would like to
cover and share it here before sending it to them (I got contact from
DW).

1.1 - is a bit vague to me (and I would rather be a more passive
listener as I am not sure if I have anything to come up with)
2.1 - is interesting, but I think it would be great if someone from
cloudstack takes an active part in it. There were some really
interesting talks from Cloudstack  at ApacheCon's last day and I had
nice conversations there - they have a really interesting stakeholder
setup  and in Cloudstack and possibly that would be a great input.
Maybe someone from cloudstack is listening ? Or if not I can reach out
to the speakers I spoke to I think :)

J,



On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 12:26 PM Jean-Baptiste Onofré  wrote:
>
> By the way, I'm pretty interested to participate on these workshops:
>
> 1.1 - Open Source Processors for the Cloud Continuum
> 2.1 - Open Source Software and Cloud Services and Applications: On the
> way to more interoperable cloud services
> 3.4 - Exploring practical solutions to ensure long term sustainability
> of open source software
>
> I chatted today with some Eclipse Foundation guys: they plan to be
> there as well.
>
> Thoughts ?
>
> Regards
> JB
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 11:38 AM Jarek Potiuk  wrote:
> >
> > Yep. Thanks DW :)
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 10:43 AM Christofer Dutz
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Thanks for taking this coordination over.
> > >
> > > They did disarm my worries, that the panelists would be from the 
> > > industry. It seems this is not the case.
> > >
> > > But they do explicitly welcome suggestions for people to be acting as 
> > > panelist on these sessions.
> > > So, we can be more actively involved. If we want to.
> > >
> > > And I agree .. this is not something we can sit out like an ApacheCon CFP 
> > > and submit ideas a minute before the deadline.
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik 
> > > Date: Thursday, 27. October 2022 at 10:24
> > > To: dev@community.apache.org 
> > > Subject: Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source 
> > > Sustainability
> > > I've been in touch with the various organizers (who do not seem to be 
> > > that organised).
> > >
> > > Happy to bundle things once we reach some sort of conclusion here. But 
> > > suspect we need to do this in the next hours and days; not week.
> > >
> > > That said - these meetings are open - so anyone can 'show up' and 
> > > participate. In many ways this type of meeting where the EC tries to 
> > > inform itself are very much in a spirit akin to open source; just show 
> > > up, contribute meaningfully, constructively and have 
> > > knowledge/information to bring.
> > >
> > > Dw
> > >
> > > > On 26 Oct 2022, at 23:14, Jarek Potiuk  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Do you have a specific contact or conversation you can forward? Or is
> > > > it a generic address we should find ourselves?
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 10:55 PM Christofer Dutz
> > > >  wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Hi all,
> > > >>
> > > >> I think we probably should at least tell them as soon as possible, 
> > > >> that we want to attend and which seessions, which people would be 
> > > >> willing to participate.
> > > >>
> > > >> As I mentioned, unfortunately I won’t be able to attend.
> > > >>
> > > >> Chris
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> From: Jean-Baptiste Onofré 
> > > >> Date: Wednesday, 26. October 2022 at 19:42
> > > >> To: dev@community.apache.org 
> > > >> Subject: Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source 
> > > >> Sustainability
> > > >> Hi Chris,
> > > >>
> > > >> I can be there as well if needed.
> > > >>
> > > >> Regards
> > > >> JB
> > > >>
> > > >> On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 10:44 AM Christofer Dutz
> > > >>  wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Hi all,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> as I attended the last set of workshops in pre-pandemic times, it 
> > > >>> seems the European Commission is continuing to try to understand 
> > > >>> open-source.
> > > >>> In this quest it seems they are planning on doing a set of workshops 
> > > >>> on a one-day session:
> > > >>> https://swforum.eu/events/open-source-workshops-computing-sustainability
> > > >>>
> > > >>> As last time Willem and I traveled there as we didn’t want the 
> > > >>> corporates to take over the narrative and explain to the European 
> > > >>> commission how Open-Source works, perhaps we should participate.
> > > >>> I mean … we’re a pretty important factor in open-source, I guess.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> What do you folks think?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Chris
> > > >>
> > > >> -
> > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > -
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, 

Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source Sustainability

[Jean-Baptiste Onofré]

By the way, I'm pretty interested to participate on these workshops:

1.1 - Open Source Processors for the Cloud Continuum
2.1 - Open Source Software and Cloud Services and Applications: On the
way to more interoperable cloud services
3.4 - Exploring practical solutions to ensure long term sustainability
of open source software

I chatted today with some Eclipse Foundation guys: they plan to be
there as well.

Thoughts ?

Regards
JB


On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 11:38 AM Jarek Potiuk  wrote:
>
> Yep. Thanks DW :)
>
> On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 10:43 AM Christofer Dutz
>  wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Thanks for taking this coordination over.
> >
> > They did disarm my worries, that the panelists would be from the industry. 
> > It seems this is not the case.
> >
> > But they do explicitly welcome suggestions for people to be acting as 
> > panelist on these sessions.
> > So, we can be more actively involved. If we want to.
> >
> > And I agree .. this is not something we can sit out like an ApacheCon CFP 
> > and submit ideas a minute before the deadline.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik 
> > Date: Thursday, 27. October 2022 at 10:24
> > To: dev@community.apache.org 
> > Subject: Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source Sustainability
> > I've been in touch with the various organizers (who do not seem to be that 
> > organised).
> >
> > Happy to bundle things once we reach some sort of conclusion here. But 
> > suspect we need to do this in the next hours and days; not week.
> >
> > That said - these meetings are open - so anyone can 'show up' and 
> > participate. In many ways this type of meeting where the EC tries to inform 
> > itself are very much in a spirit akin to open source; just show up, 
> > contribute meaningfully, constructively and have knowledge/information to 
> > bring.
> >
> > Dw
> >
> > > On 26 Oct 2022, at 23:14, Jarek Potiuk  wrote:
> > >
> > > Do you have a specific contact or conversation you can forward? Or is
> > > it a generic address we should find ourselves?
> > >
> > > On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 10:55 PM Christofer Dutz
> > >  wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Hi all,
> > >>
> > >> I think we probably should at least tell them as soon as possible, that 
> > >> we want to attend and which seessions, which people would be willing to 
> > >> participate.
> > >>
> > >> As I mentioned, unfortunately I won’t be able to attend.
> > >>
> > >> Chris
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> From: Jean-Baptiste Onofré 
> > >> Date: Wednesday, 26. October 2022 at 19:42
> > >> To: dev@community.apache.org 
> > >> Subject: Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source 
> > >> Sustainability
> > >> Hi Chris,
> > >>
> > >> I can be there as well if needed.
> > >>
> > >> Regards
> > >> JB
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 10:44 AM Christofer Dutz
> > >>  wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi all,
> > >>>
> > >>> as I attended the last set of workshops in pre-pandemic times, it seems 
> > >>> the European Commission is continuing to try to understand open-source.
> > >>> In this quest it seems they are planning on doing a set of workshops on 
> > >>> a one-day session:
> > >>> https://swforum.eu/events/open-source-workshops-computing-sustainability
> > >>>
> > >>> As last time Willem and I traveled there as we didn’t want the 
> > >>> corporates to take over the narrative and explain to the European 
> > >>> commission how Open-Source works, perhaps we should participate.
> > >>> I mean … we’re a pretty important factor in open-source, I guess.
> > >>>
> > >>> What do you folks think?
> > >>>
> > >>> Chris
> > >>
> > >> -
> > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> > >
> > > -
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org

Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source Sustainability

[Jarek Potiuk]

Yep. Thanks DW :)

On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 10:43 AM Christofer Dutz
 wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Thanks for taking this coordination over.
>
> They did disarm my worries, that the panelists would be from the industry. It 
> seems this is not the case.
>
> But they do explicitly welcome suggestions for people to be acting as 
> panelist on these sessions.
> So, we can be more actively involved. If we want to.
>
> And I agree .. this is not something we can sit out like an ApacheCon CFP and 
> submit ideas a minute before the deadline.
>
> Chris
>
> From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik 
> Date: Thursday, 27. October 2022 at 10:24
> To: dev@community.apache.org 
> Subject: Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source Sustainability
> I've been in touch with the various organizers (who do not seem to be that 
> organised).
>
> Happy to bundle things once we reach some sort of conclusion here. But 
> suspect we need to do this in the next hours and days; not week.
>
> That said - these meetings are open - so anyone can 'show up' and 
> participate. In many ways this type of meeting where the EC tries to inform 
> itself are very much in a spirit akin to open source; just show up, 
> contribute meaningfully, constructively and have knowledge/information to 
> bring.
>
> Dw
>
> > On 26 Oct 2022, at 23:14, Jarek Potiuk  wrote:
> >
> > Do you have a specific contact or conversation you can forward? Or is
> > it a generic address we should find ourselves?
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 10:55 PM Christofer Dutz
> >  wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> I think we probably should at least tell them as soon as possible, that we 
> >> want to attend and which seessions, which people would be willing to 
> >> participate.
> >>
> >> As I mentioned, unfortunately I won’t be able to attend.
> >>
> >> Chris
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Jean-Baptiste Onofré 
> >> Date: Wednesday, 26. October 2022 at 19:42
> >> To: dev@community.apache.org 
> >> Subject: Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source Sustainability
> >> Hi Chris,
> >>
> >> I can be there as well if needed.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >> JB
> >>
> >> On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 10:44 AM Christofer Dutz
> >>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi all,
> >>>
> >>> as I attended the last set of workshops in pre-pandemic times, it seems 
> >>> the European Commission is continuing to try to understand open-source.
> >>> In this quest it seems they are planning on doing a set of workshops on a 
> >>> one-day session:
> >>> https://swforum.eu/events/open-source-workshops-computing-sustainability
> >>>
> >>> As last time Willem and I traveled there as we didn’t want the corporates 
> >>> to take over the narrative and explain to the European commission how 
> >>> Open-Source works, perhaps we should participate.
> >>> I mean … we’re a pretty important factor in open-source, I guess.
> >>>
> >>> What do you folks think?
> >>>
> >>> Chris
> >>
> >> -
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
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Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source Sustainability

[Christofer Dutz]

Hi all,

Thanks for taking this coordination over.

They did disarm my worries, that the panelists would be from the industry. It 
seems this is not the case.

But they do explicitly welcome suggestions for people to be acting as panelist 
on these sessions.
So, we can be more actively involved. If we want to.

And I agree .. this is not something we can sit out like an ApacheCon CFP and 
submit ideas a minute before the deadline.

Chris

From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik 
Date: Thursday, 27. October 2022 at 10:24
To: dev@community.apache.org 
Subject: Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source Sustainability
I've been in touch with the various organizers (who do not seem to be that 
organised).

Happy to bundle things once we reach some sort of conclusion here. But suspect 
we need to do this in the next hours and days; not week.

That said - these meetings are open - so anyone can 'show up' and participate. 
In many ways this type of meeting where the EC tries to inform itself are very 
much in a spirit akin to open source; just show up, contribute meaningfully, 
constructively and have knowledge/information to bring.

Dw

> On 26 Oct 2022, at 23:14, Jarek Potiuk  wrote:
>
> Do you have a specific contact or conversation you can forward? Or is
> it a generic address we should find ourselves?
>
> On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 10:55 PM Christofer Dutz
>  wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I think we probably should at least tell them as soon as possible, that we 
>> want to attend and which seessions, which people would be willing to 
>> participate.
>>
>> As I mentioned, unfortunately I won’t be able to attend.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> From: Jean-Baptiste Onofré 
>> Date: Wednesday, 26. October 2022 at 19:42
>> To: dev@community.apache.org 
>> Subject: Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source Sustainability
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>> I can be there as well if needed.
>>
>> Regards
>> JB
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 10:44 AM Christofer Dutz
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> as I attended the last set of workshops in pre-pandemic times, it seems the 
>>> European Commission is continuing to try to understand open-source.
>>> In this quest it seems they are planning on doing a set of workshops on a 
>>> one-day session:
>>> https://swforum.eu/events/open-source-workshops-computing-sustainability
>>>
>>> As last time Willem and I traveled there as we didn’t want the corporates 
>>> to take over the narrative and explain to the European commission how 
>>> Open-Source works, perhaps we should participate.
>>> I mean … we’re a pretty important factor in open-source, I guess.
>>>
>>> What do you folks think?
>>>
>>> Chris
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>
>


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Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source Sustainability

[Dirk-Willem van Gulik]

I've been in touch with the various organizers (who do not seem to be that 
organised).

Happy to bundle things once we reach some sort of conclusion here. But suspect 
we need to do this in the next hours and days; not week.

That said - these meetings are open - so anyone can 'show up' and participate. 
In many ways this type of meeting where the EC tries to inform itself are very 
much in a spirit akin to open source; just show up, contribute meaningfully, 
constructively and have knowledge/information to bring.

Dw

> On 26 Oct 2022, at 23:14, Jarek Potiuk  wrote:
> 
> Do you have a specific contact or conversation you can forward? Or is
> it a generic address we should find ourselves?
> 
> On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 10:55 PM Christofer Dutz
>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> I think we probably should at least tell them as soon as possible, that we 
>> want to attend and which seessions, which people would be willing to 
>> participate.
>> 
>> As I mentioned, unfortunately I won’t be able to attend.
>> 
>> Chris
>> 
>> 
>> From: Jean-Baptiste Onofré 
>> Date: Wednesday, 26. October 2022 at 19:42
>> To: dev@community.apache.org 
>> Subject: Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source Sustainability
>> Hi Chris,
>> 
>> I can be there as well if needed.
>> 
>> Regards
>> JB
>> 
>> On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 10:44 AM Christofer Dutz
>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> as I attended the last set of workshops in pre-pandemic times, it seems the 
>>> European Commission is continuing to try to understand open-source.
>>> In this quest it seems they are planning on doing a set of workshops on a 
>>> one-day session:
>>> https://swforum.eu/events/open-source-workshops-computing-sustainability
>>> 
>>> As last time Willem and I traveled there as we didn’t want the corporates 
>>> to take over the narrative and explain to the European commission how 
>>> Open-Source works, perhaps we should participate.
>>> I mean … we’re a pretty important factor in open-source, I guess.
>>> 
>>> What do you folks think?
>>> 
>>> Chris
>> 
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> 
> 


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Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source Sustainability

[Jean-Baptiste Onofré]

Hi Chris,

Yes, I agree. I think it makes sense to prepare here and have one
person as "main" contact.

Regards
JB

On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 8:09 AM Christofer Dutz
 wrote:
>
> Well I thought we would coordinate things a bit more here and then I could 
> forward it as bulk to them. Didn't think everyone contacting them on his own 
> was what they would expect.
>
> Chris
>
> Holen Sie sich Outlook für Android
> 
> From: Jarek Potiuk 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2022 11:14:13 PM
> To: dev@community.apache.org 
> Subject: Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source Sustainability
>
> Do you have a specific contact or conversation you can forward? Or is
> it a generic address we should find ourselves?
>
> On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 10:55 PM Christofer Dutz
>  wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I think we probably should at least tell them as soon as possible, that we 
> > want to attend and which seessions, which people would be willing to 
> > participate.
> >
> > As I mentioned, unfortunately I won’t be able to attend.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > From: Jean-Baptiste Onofré 
> > Date: Wednesday, 26. October 2022 at 19:42
> > To: dev@community.apache.org 
> > Subject: Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source Sustainability
> > Hi Chris,
> >
> > I can be there as well if needed.
> >
> > Regards
> > JB
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 10:44 AM Christofer Dutz
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > as I attended the last set of workshops in pre-pandemic times, it seems 
> > > the European Commission is continuing to try to understand open-source.
> > > In this quest it seems they are planning on doing a set of workshops on a 
> > > one-day session:
> > > https://swforum.eu/events/open-source-workshops-computing-sustainability
> > >
> > > As last time Willem and I traveled there as we didn’t want the corporates 
> > > to take over the narrative and explain to the European commission how 
> > > Open-Source works, perhaps we should participate.
> > > I mean … we’re a pretty important factor in open-source, I guess.
> > >
> > > What do you folks think?
> > >
> > > Chris
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>

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Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source Sustainability

[Christofer Dutz]

Well I thought we would coordinate things a bit more here and then I could 
forward it as bulk to them. Didn't think everyone contacting them on his own 
was what they would expect.

Chris

Holen Sie sich Outlook für Android

From: Jarek Potiuk 
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2022 11:14:13 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org 
Subject: Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source Sustainability

Do you have a specific contact or conversation you can forward? Or is
it a generic address we should find ourselves?

On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 10:55 PM Christofer Dutz
 wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I think we probably should at least tell them as soon as possible, that we 
> want to attend and which seessions, which people would be willing to 
> participate.
>
> As I mentioned, unfortunately I won’t be able to attend.
>
> Chris
>
>
> From: Jean-Baptiste Onofré 
> Date: Wednesday, 26. October 2022 at 19:42
> To: dev@community.apache.org 
> Subject: Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source Sustainability
> Hi Chris,
>
> I can be there as well if needed.
>
> Regards
> JB
>
> On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 10:44 AM Christofer Dutz
>  wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > as I attended the last set of workshops in pre-pandemic times, it seems the 
> > European Commission is continuing to try to understand open-source.
> > In this quest it seems they are planning on doing a set of workshops on a 
> > one-day session:
> > https://swforum.eu/events/open-source-workshops-computing-sustainability
> >
> > As last time Willem and I traveled there as we didn’t want the corporates 
> > to take over the narrative and explain to the European commission how 
> > Open-Source works, perhaps we should participate.
> > I mean … we’re a pretty important factor in open-source, I guess.
> >
> > What do you folks think?
> >
> > Chris
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org

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