Siren by OpenSSF

[Roman Shaposhnik]

This seems like a pretty useful service for getting early
signals around disclosures and such. Given how many
projects in the supply chain they are tracking are from
the ASF I wonder if we need to be on a receiving end
of it either via security@a.o or some other way?

https://openssf.org/blog/2024/05/20/enhancing-open-source-security-introducing-siren-by-openssf/

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: FYI, ASF volunteers page is live, mentors & speakers are welcome to sign up

[Roman Shaposhnik]

This is awesome! Quick question: does it get rebuilt automatically or
is there a human kick needed to update the page based on .md and .json
data?

Thanks,
Roman.

On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 4:45 AM Bertrand Delacretaz
 wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> The new "ASF volunteer mentors & speakers" page [0] is live, meant to
> replace the unmaintained community.zones.apache.org utilities, which
> will soon be redirected to it.
>
> ASF committers are welcome to add their names to that page if you are
> willing to be a mentor and/or speaker on ASF topics.
>
> To do so, add your ASF ID to [1] and if desired you can add some
> additional information (region, languages spoken, website) to [2].
>
> -Bertrand
>
> [0] https://community.apache.org/contributors/asf-volunteers.html
> [1] 
> https://github.com/apache/comdev-site/blob/main/source/contributors/asf-volunteers.md
> [2] https://github.com/apache/comdev-site/blob/main/static/data/people.json
>
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Re: Nearby ASF people, or volunteers page?

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Mon, Nov 27, 2023 at 1:03 PM Bertrand Delacretaz
 wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> We have a "nearby ASF people" app at [1], meant to help people find
> mentors or ASF speakers, that's not really maintained and contains a
> lot of stale data.
>
> I think we could just use a website page to provide that information,
> and I've created a prototype at [2], example output at [3]. It's just
> an additional "mentors and speakers" page for our website, with a
> simple way for people to add their information in a Markdown page.
>
> What do people think, can we replace the people app with such a simple page?

This would work for me, but I'd really love to have a map
visualisation view as well
(this should't be too hard, right? ;-))

Thanks,
Roman.

> Unless people step up to actually maintain [1], I think [2] would at
> least allow us to publish some up to date information. We can always
> revive [1] later if volunteers show up.
>
> -Bertrand
>
> [1] https://community.zones.apache.org/map.html
> [2] https://github.com/apache/comdev-site/pull/146
> [3] 
> https://community-volunteers.staged.apache.org/contributors/asf-volunteers.html
>
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Re: VP Conferences changes

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Thu, Nov 9, 2023 at 12:42 AM Kanchana Welagedara
 wrote:
>
> Dear Rich,
>
> With reminiscing of helping out to organize ApacheCon Asia 2006 Asia ( Sri
> Lanka ), my first ever ApacheConf experience, let me write this you .
>
> Your dedication, guidance and tireless efforts have made a profound impact
> on Apache community . Apache conferences have flourished and have become
> not just events but vibrant gathering of like-minded individuals passionate
> about Apache software .
> Your commitment to fostering the an inclusive and environment has created
> an atmosphere where participants are formed and knowledge is shared .
>  Thank you for outstanding services as the VP of conferences.

Huge +1 to the above! Rich has absolutely put a lot of heart and soul
into the events over the years!

Thanks,
Roman.

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FOSDEM 2024

[Roman Shaposhnik]

Hi!

I remember we typically have a wiki page for coordinating
things around FOSDEM -- I just forgot the URL :-( Little help?

Also, I'll definitely be there and also plan to be at the State of
Open CON in UK after that.

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: Helping to welcome non-english communities by questioning our rules?

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 10:42 AM Christofer Dutz
 wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> as some of you might know, I recently joined a company where most employees 
> are native Chinese speakers.
> I was looking forward to this for the reason of gaining more insight into how 
> these communities work and was hoping to gain some actionable things to help 
> make the ASF more welcoming to these communities.
>
> Yes: Many of us say: English is the most spoken and understood language on 
> the planet.
> However even if someone might understand English and might be able to write 
> English, they still might not feel comfortable doing so.
> In the PLC4X project we have one person who stated that on multiple occasions 
> and he’s a valuable part of the community.
>
> It seems that our way of writing English emails, even if accessible to 
> communities in China, still it causes them to build up parallel structures:
>
>   *   WeChat Groups
>   *   Workspaces using tools like Lark/Feishu
>
> I was always trying to convince them to come and have discussions on 
> mailing-lists but have generally failed to do so.
>
> Now after starting to work at Timecho, I got used to using their chat tool 
> (Feishu) … it’s sort of like Teams combined with Office 365.
> But the feature that struck me most, was the ability that I could select any 
> channel and enable the “Translation assistant”. Here I could select which 
> language I want to read the discussions in, and I can even have the assistant 
> auto-translate everything to Chinese. This way I can communicate with my 
> colleagues as if I was communicating with native English speakers. It’s been 
> nothing but amazing to see how easy it is to simply ignore language barriers 
> and focus on the task at hand and not having to deal with writing in a 
> non-native language (Well … I think I would be 100% lost, if someone asked me 
> to write in Chinese ;-) )
>
> This got me thinking:
> We have this rule: If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t happen (Don’t 
> even know if it’s really written down somewhere or if it’s just a common 
> mantra).
> But I think this is just one instance of a solution to the problem of us 
> wanting to have every decision documented and archived and searchable, so 
> everyone can participate and later search for reasons why a project did what 
> they did.
> So … what if we question this rule.
> I was thinking of if we couldn’t achieve what the rule wanted, by introducing 
> a new solution into the picture.
> What if we had a global storage for everything that happens in a project?
> Every input to the project is stored in this system. This input could be in 
> any language.
> If we had a sponsor to allow auto-translating things to English (I am sure 
> there are services out there able to do that)
> A translated English version could be stored alongside the original.
> Now every system we use, could have plugins to send to this central system: 
> Email, GitHub, Jira, Slack, WeChat, …
> If someone could now use this system to follow everything that a project is 
> doing, possibly using the translation API to have things converted into the 
> language he can understand.
>
> I think (except for the translation service), we should have everything we 
> need inside the foundation.
>
> What do you folks think?

Yes, and... ;-)

...I've been thinking along the same lines given that I have recently
helped OpenAtom Foundation get to a point where they have native
translations/explanations of portions from
https://www.apache.org/legal/

The translations are done and have been reviewed by two of our long
standing, bi-lingual ASF members. So they are as good as it gets.

Now, the question I have is: how can we promote this to our
communities who may benefit from it?

The reason I'm asking is not to hijack this thread ;-) but rather to
figure out what would be our attitude towards non-english content
(like what you're suggesting Chris). Would we be comfortable putting
it some place on apache.org ? Would a better option be simply linking
to some other resource? Would a parallel, web property managed by
folks affiliated with ASF, but not officially ASF be a better option?

But to get back to Chris' question: my answer would be "YES -- let's
collect all things that can be helpful (regardless of the language)",
but my followup question would be: how should we manage/expose/promote
it?

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: Fw: Permission to translate your ASF blog and article

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Sat, Aug 12, 2023 at 9:46 AM Liu Ted  wrote:
>
> Hi ComDev,
> I have completed the translation of a few recent articles regarding the 
> Generative AI Guidance & Cyber Resilience Act and I wish to contribute them 
> to the ASF Blog and also promote them to other social network channels in 
> China or elsewhere. They are:
> [Article 1]: by Roman Shaposhnik, VP, Legal Affairs, ASFOriginal: 
> https://news.apache.org/foundation/entry/asf-legal-committee-issues-generative-ai-guidance-to-contributorsTranslation:
>  https://kaiyuanshe.feishu.cn/docx/Z1DZdCPMUojFfgxIHXBcMJ97neg (Done)
> [Article 2]: by ASFOriginal: 
> https://www.apache.org/legal/generative-tooling.htmlTranslation: 
> https://kaiyuanshe.feishu.cn/docx/IK7DdQFHFoHZj8xSeWbc5UyonZf (Done)
> [Article 3]: by Dirk-Willem van Gulik, VP, Public Affairs, ASF
> Original: 
> https://news.apache.org/foundation/entry/save-open-source-the-impending-tragedy-of-the-cyber-resilience-actTranslation:
>  https://kaiyuanshe.feishu.cn/docx/WH7EdLAosoNYcixiI2oc3RqUnrf (WIP)
>
> Are there any processes that I should follow to get approval? Any comments 
> are welcome.

I am not sure I know what the process is -- but the above gets my
super-enthusiastic +1. We have such a great community of native
Chinese speakers in some of the most active projects in the ASF -- I'm
sure they will be delighted to see these translations published!

Which brings me to CCing Brian directly ;-) Brian, very narrowly: do
we have precedents of publishing non-English articles on
news.apache.org?

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: Skill based groups at the ASF

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Mon, Aug 7, 2023 at 9:02 PM Drew Foulks  wrote:
>
> Hi All!
>
> I'd like to submit an idea for an effort that I'd like to undertake / see
> undertaken here at the foundation -- I've taken to calling them guilds for
> lack of a better name, which are essentially project independent expert
> groups that help in a specific capacity (builds, writing, websites, etc) to
> help elevate solutions from the TLP level to the Foundation level.
>
> Feedback is appreciated.

FWIW: huge +1 to the idea. Bootstrapping it to make it real would be a bit of
a heavy pull ('cuz I don't think just an ML would do it -- you kind would have
to engage in some level of community building). But if it succeeds -- that'd
be awesome. Count me in (Operating Systems, IoT, AI, Cloud Native,
MLOps/DataOps I guess would be the guilds I'd join in a heartbeat).

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: Short Email to committers@ highlighting our generative AI/tools guidance

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 3:53 PM  wrote:
>
> On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 15:26 +0300, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
> > Hi!
> >
> > I was contemplating sending a really short email
> > to committers@ with the $subj. Who should I talk
> > with to get this done (or convince myself that
> > an email to a different ML is better ;-))?
>
>
> It's definitely hard to know what ML is correct. committers@ does
> indeed go to the correct audience, but we have trained people to ignore
> that list for many years.

Yeah... thinking I'll probably CC members@ ?

> Please *also* post the policy/advice/guidance/whatever it is to a web
> page on either community.apache.org/contributors or somewhere on
> apache.org for permanent reference.

https://news.apache.org/foundation/entry/asf-legal-committee-issues-generative-ai-guidance-to-contributors

and

https://www.apache.org/legal/generative-tooling.html

Thanks,
Roman.

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Short Email to committers@ highlighting our generative AI/tools guidance

[Roman Shaposhnik]

Hi!

I was contemplating sending a really short email
to committers@ with the $subj. Who should I talk
with to get this done (or convince myself that
an email to a different ML is better ;-))?

Thanks,
Roman.

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Anyone interested in initiating an ALC Cyprus?

[Roman Shaposhnik]

Inspired by Christofer's message I got to think that maybe there's
enough of us ASF folks in Cyprus (at least during summer time ;-))

At any rate -- if there's interest -- it just so happens that I've got
pretty kick-ass downtown space in a tower that I can use for
regular get-togethers.

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: Community-run MVP programs at the ASF

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Thu, Jun 22, 2023 at 1:39 AM Phil Steitz  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 12:57 PM Mark Thomas  wrote:
>
> > On 21/06/2023 19:57, Jeff Jirsa wrote:
> > > Member of the cassandra PMC, but responding here individually. I'm not
> > actually sure I actually support the idea of an MVP program, but do want to
> > point out that "PMC" has other special meaning:
> > >
> > > - A member of the PMC is (or at least was, and if it's changed, I missed
> > it) strictly required to be a committer. We've had threads in the past
> > about whether or not there was room for flexibility, and structurally the
> > answer was no. That's a problem because:
> > >
> > > - Committer requires signing an ICLA. That's a problem because:
> > >
> > > - Not all community members CAN sign an ICLA. Some are prevented from
> > doing so by employment restrictions or other legal requirements. So even if
> > it were the case that SOMEONE might be the type of contributor who a
> > project WOULD make a member of the PMC, some individuals CAN NOT accept
> > that.
> >
> > Yes, that is an issue. It would be interesting to get some numbers on
> > how often that happens and whether there is anything the ASF can do to
> > help reduce the frequency - e.g. engagement with employers. Probably a
> > topic for a separate thread.
> >
> > Regardless, it is pretty much inevitable given the size of the ASF that
> > there will be some people that can't sign the ICLA and that is an issue
> > worth trying to address.
> >
> > Note: Projects can invite whoever they like to join their private list.
> > It would be unusual but I can't think of any reason a project couldn't
> > have honorary PMC members (or similar name), subscribed to the private
> > list and their voices listened to as if there were PMC members - the
> > only difference being they would not be listed in committee-info.txt and
> > their votes would not be binding.
> >
> > > Beyond that:
> > >
> > > The PMC is permanent, irrevocable, and binding.
> >
> > Not quite. There are ways to remove bad actors from a PMC if necessary.
> >
> > > There are existence proofs of single bad actors  on the PMC effectively
> > blowing up projects (I will show them to you if needed, but PMC members who
> > veto every single action and lead other contributors to fork).
> >
> > Been there. Got the t-shirt. Several times. And I hope I never have to
> > go there again. It is never pretty, always stressful and damages the
> > community. That it is rare is both good and bad. It is good it doesn't
> > happen often but the downside is there is relatively little experience
> > of dealing with it to draw on if you find yourself in that situation.
> >
> > > "This person is doing cool things to help the community THIS YEAR" is
> > not the same as "please be a driving force of the project forever".
> >
> > While there are bad actors, there represent a very small faction of the
> > community. I'd argue there is a greater risk of harm to the community by
> > having high bars for committership and PMC membership and excluding
> > folks than there is by having low bars and accepting the risk of a bad
> > actor.
> >
> > > On a personal level, I started working with Cassandra to solve a problem
> > at work, but I kept working on it because some company I had never heard of
> > sent me an email and a t-shirt that said MVP on it. I was nowhere NEAR the
> > level of contributions you'd need to be a committer, much less a member of
> > the PMC (a conference talk and a couple emails, no code contributed at
> > all). It was a nice marketing gesture for the project, and probably for the
> > company (maybe they assumed my employer would turn into a paying customer,
> > which definitely wasnt going to happen).
> >
> > I think there is plenty of room for that sort of contributor
> > appreciation. Putting on my VP Brand hat for a minute, I have approved
> > companies producing project branded swag for exactly this purpose. The
> > main concern is making sure it is community swag rather than corporate
> > swag.
> >
> > > All of that said: it feels weird. I can argue about why it's good and
> > important. It still feels weird. Emotionally, I don't love the idea, but we
> > also don't want affiliated companies running programs that may be
> > misconstrued as acting for the (trademarked) brand, and that's the typical
> > place you'd see a program like this. Microsoft has MVPs. AWS has community
> > heroes. Apache projects  have merit within the project and within the
> > foundation, but again, permanent, binding, and requires contracts.
> >
> > It looks as if there are a couple of different issues here (long term
> > contributors that can't sign the ICLA, wider contributor recognition as
> > a way to build community, maybeothers). I think there are solutions to
> > these issues that don't require creation of a parallel / alternative
> > system of recognizing merit.`
> >
> > My main concern with a parallel system of merit recognition is that it

Re: [DISCUSS] ASF Mastodon instance?

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Sun, Nov 6, 2022 at 11:20 PM Niels Basjes  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Given the recent events around twitter I had this crazy idea:
> What if the ASF would run their own Mastodon instance under the apache.org
> domain?
>
> Primarily this would make it possible for all projects to have a clean
> account that can be used for project announcements (i.e. usable by PMCs ?)
> I expect this to also make it quite easy to archive all communication via
> this route.
> Like:
>
>- @a...@apache.org
>- @fl...@apache.org
>
> Second (I consider this to be optional) it would allow all
> committers/pmcs/... to have a clean ASF relatable point of communication.
> In my case
>
>- @nielsbas...@apache.org
>
> I have NO idea how easy/hard/expensive such a thing is at the scale of the
> ASF.
> I just wanted to drop the idea here so it can be discussed (and then either
> be accepted or rejected).

And therein lies the rub -- I think it will be a reasonable impact on
our infra team (Greg CCed for further comments) and as such will have
to be justified...

...'cuz the only justification I have is that (and perhaps similar to
yours) "it would be really cool to have it" ;-)

Thanks,
Roman,

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Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source Sustainability

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Sat, Nov 5, 2022 at 6:27 PM Jarek Potiuk  wrote:
>
> I am also scheduled for the "Workshop 3.4 Exploring practical solutions to
> ensure long term sustainability of open source software".

I'm now signed up to be on the:

"1.4: Identifying, fixing and managing critical open source software
used by European Public Services."

> Geertjan - agree on both - beer a day before and a zoom call to prepare -
> likely with Molly/Joe involved to get their help on messaging, and view.

+1. Should we pick up a venue as well?

> Related to what DW wrote - yep. We should always speak as individuals, but
> I think we can be better prepared and not caught by "press" if we got some
> kind of briefing from Molly/Joe. I have no experience speaking at EU
> forums, but I remember when I was speaking at a big banking conference when
> I was in a small Mobile Payment startup, I appreciated a lot all the
> briefing, help and suggestions from the people with PR/Marketing experience
> and I think that was one of the best prepared talks of mine.
> (I actually quit the startup soon after because I realized at that very
> conference that what our CEO was selling us internally was a complete
> dreampipe, but that's a completely different story :D).
>
> Best time for me is Tuesday, Thursday or Friday next week - anything
> before  3pm CET should work.

Works for me as well!

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source Sustainability

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 11:44 AM Christofer Dutz
 wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> as I attended the last set of workshops in pre-pandemic times, it seems the 
> European Commission is continuing to try to understand open-source.
> In this quest it seems they are planning on doing a set of workshops on a 
> one-day session:
> https://swforum.eu/events/open-source-workshops-computing-sustainability
>
> As last time Willem and I traveled there as we didn’t want the corporates to 
> take over the narrative and explain to the European commission how 
> Open-Source works, perhaps we should participate.
> I mean … we’re a pretty important factor in open-source, I guess.
>
> What do you folks think?

I very much support this idea. Also, given that I live in EU now --
that trip would be very easy for me (if needed).

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: The ASF booth at OpenSource Experience Paris

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 12:34 PM Jean-Baptiste Onofré  wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
>
> November 8 & 9 will be OpenSource Experience Paris
> (https://www.opensource-experience.com/en/).
>
> I took the opportunity/lead to request a booth for The ASF, that has
> been accepted.
>
> I will be on the booth (of course), splitting my time between The ASF
> booth and my company booth.
> I would need help for:
> - if you are around and have some time to be on the booth, it would be great
> - I would need some material/gadgets for the booth (stickers, ...). Do
> we have a process for shipping/printing/getting material ?
>
> PS: I'm interested in joining the comdev group. What's the process to join ?

I may be able to help staff the booth. Quick question: will that
include registration to the event or do I need to pay for that
separately?

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: A way to keep the name

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 4:35 PM me  wrote:
>
> Roman, welcome to the party!

LOL! Thanks ;-)

> I think the scope of the risk (in terms of “what”) is fairly well understood. 
> Did you also estimate the probability of the risks? (i.e. likelihood?)

IIRC mostly the likelihood.

> Do you mind sharing what the results were of the previous assessment?

It was deemed to be low: primarily based on our historic use of the
name (we have been pretty respectful with it) and the fact that
whoever brings the lawsuit will have to have a standing.

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: A way to keep the name

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 6:54 PM me  wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Subject:  Re: A way to keep the name
>
> I think it's a good idea to make such a fund or simply make sure that
> existing efforts (TAC, Outreachy engagement) have some deliberate and
> conscious actions in this direction - knowing the past association - and
> showing the respect and following the original mindset of people who
> created the foundation.
> I want to re-iterate that we have to proceed with caution here. We’re making 
> assumptions based on western culture and values. The way funds are made 
> available has to be approached carefully. A scholarship or social award might 
> be more diplomatic? I can’t speak for the Apache, but I can re-iterate that 
> trying this w/ some nations is going to be received as offensive.
>
>
>
> Just one comment here - I stated my opinion in the member's discussions -
> that's my personal view of course, that there is nothing to repair as there
> is no damage and simply de-association of Apache name while also showing
> the respect and engage community to actively work on de-associating is a
> better way of handling the issue than any repair.
> How do we know that there is no damage or repair until we speak with them?
>
>
>
> Using the word "reparation" here is certainly not the one I'd use. It might
> be good will and sign of respect, but in no-way it should bring any
> obligation on the ASF.
>
> If I see "Association with permission" is extremely dangerous for the
> foundation that worked 20 years on the brand being it's most valuable asset
> (without the real piggy-backing on the Apache Tribe in order to build the
> reputation). Just having "permission" from others on the important asset of
> the ASF foundation brand depending on non-member decisions might also be
> illegal from the foundation bylaws (I am not a lawyer and certainly do not
> know much about US law). This would basically mean that we put the fate of
> the foundation in the hands of non-members.
>
>
> I don’t mean to nudge here, but I’m going to.
>
> I want to be very open that I don’t necessarily agree with the “change the 
> name at all costs approach”. Maybe I’m naive, but I find a romantic element 
> to having organizations that can share a name with a group of people that 
> represents the characteristics of those people, while maintaining a 
> consistent responsibility to represent them cooperatively.
>
> That said, I also recognize we live in a polarizing social climate, so I feel 
> it is a responsible direction to hear the tribe and hear what they have to 
> say to determine if a problem exists. My only caution with the approach is 
> that it is temporary. We could find out it doesn’t bother anyone today, only 
> to have it revisited in X amount of time to find that it is no longer 
> acceptable. I don’t personally understand the problem well enough to know 
> what the degree or stability of those relationships and perceptions are.
>
> I understand the apprehension to the word “permission’. If I can put this in 
> radical terms, how would you feel if I started a software foundation called 
> the Jarek Potiuk foundation?
> Then I would create a name page similar to 
> https://www.apache.org/apache-name/  Most of the verbiage would be 
> respectful, and would pay homage to an inspiring colleague “Jarek Potiuk"
>
> Then in some fashion like this -> As the Apache HTTP Server grew from patches 
> applied to the NCSA Server, a pun on the name quickly spread amongst members 
> of the community, with the rumor being that “Apache” actually stood for “a 
> ‘patchy’ server”. As time passed, the popularity of the “A Patchy Server” 
> story grew: rumor became lore, and lore became legend.
>
> I would write… "as an open source project, each of us brought our own spice 
> to the software, very much like a ‘potluck’ dish. Given the similarities in 
> the name we called it internally a  “Potluck Foundation”…etc.
>
> Maybe you are ok with it. Maybe not. Maybe your family and descendants aren’t 
> ok with it later. Either way, that is your name, and you have every right in 
> this country (US) to tell us not to use it. If we don’t comply, and you sue 
> us, we can lose the right to use the name as well as be penalized 
> financially. (Apologies if this offends. I’m trying to demonstrate a 
> parallel.)
>
> There is a causal relationship between the foundation’s name and the Apache 
> people based on the link provided above.
>
> What I’m going to suggest as the following is an extreme case. However, it 
> can’t be ignored. There is legal precedent for companies being sued in the 
> United States over the use of tribal names. (One that immediately comes to 
> mind is the Allergan case. They paid an annual $15 million dollar royalty to 
> a Mohawk nation while the patents remained valid, as well as handed over 
> those patents to the tribe. I believe Apple and Google have also both been 
> sued in similar cases.)
>
> As an open source body with no revenue, 

Re: [DISCUSS] Crazy or good Idea?

[Roman Shaposhnik]

Chris, thanks for sort of reviving the old thread I had before the
war: I'm slowly coming back to my more regular Open Source life from
all the craziness of the past two months. Because of that, there's not
much to report back -- but I will share a few points and comment on a
few of yours. Hope this will help move things along.

On Wed, Apr 20, 2022 at 3:11 PM Christofer Dutz
 wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> now that the Aprils Fool Joke has worn off a bit, I think I can post this 
> here. I at first suggested this in the board list before April 1st, as I 
> wanted to make sure this hasn’t been wiped off the table as a silly idea 
> before.
>
> Turns out that I didn’t get a single “silly idea” response.
>
> As you all might know I have been working on finding ways to finance my work 
> on open-source, but in an open-source way that others can also profit from 
> what I might find out.
>
> There are some projects that managed to form or attract companies to grow 
> around them. These usually don’t have problems finding funds to finance 
> further development.
> However, we also have a large number of projects that are not as big, or a 
> large number of people working on our projects, but don’t work for those 
> companies.
>
> So, these people are generally relying on finding contracts themselves. This 
> usually is problematic as many larger companies don’t do business with 
> individuals.
> Also is it often tricky to get the legal documents and contracts right and 
> then not even talking about how long payments usually take.
>
> Another thing is that the ASF is a non-profit organization and therefore it’s 
> challenging to advertise commercial offerings around Apache projects.
>
> As an example: One of the things I found out with my crowd-funding experiment 
> is that this doesn’t work. Admittedly I wasn’t expecting it to work. 
> Companies just can’t donate large amounts of money without any assurances. 
> But I did learn one thing: My crowd-funding experiment was in a way the most 
> successful thing I did.
>
> The thing was, that I listed up things that could be on the roadmap and I 
> added a price-tag to them. This is one thing an Apache project just couldn’t 
> do. So even if I didn’t get a single cent in donations for my work, I was 
> approached by multiple companies willing to finance individual campaigns, but 
> with a normal consulting contract.
>
> Now there are also companies like Tidelift, that want to close this gap. 
> However, we are still a bit unsure how to align the interest of that company 
> with the values of the ASF. And there’s the fact that not everyone is able to 
> profit from Tidelift. I for example tried reaching out to them several times 
> for offering commercial PLC4X support, but the only responses I got, were 
> people wanting to discuss how my business could profit from using more 
> open-source ;-) So for me Tidelift is not an option as not everyone can use 
> it.
>
> Now let me get to my idea:
> What If there was a separate legal entity closely related to the ASF (Let’s 
> call it “Support Inc.” for now). I would even propose that the oversight 
> entity for Support Inc. should be the ASF board. This would assure the 
> company is perfectly in-line with the ASF and its values.

First of all, I 100% agree with Sam -- there's absolutely 0 reason
that I see these two entities should have (structurally!) any more
ties than ASF and let's say Cloudera. If you disagree on that point
strongly -- now would be a good time to list all your reasons for why.

Back to building an independent business: my hypothesis back when I
started the Tidelift thread is that we basically have two choices:
  1. piggy back off of somebody who is already doing a similar kind of
a business (and convince them to tweak it to be fully aligned with
ASF's vision)
  2. have a brand new business

This thread of yours seem to be focused on #2 so I'll stay with that
(and will comment on #1 in a separate thread).

I'll start with saying that I've been talking to a LOT of my VC and
OSS Foundations friends about #2 lately and the consensus seems to be
that it is all about the economics of bootstrapping this kind of a
business. The economics simply doesn't seem to work out (at least not
in the US market) until you hit a certain number of customers AND
committers in what, effectively, can be described as a marketplace. We
can debated at what # of both of these you can hope to be at least
somewhat revenue neutral, but it is pretty clear that the numbers are
significant. Effectively, you need seed money.

This kind of seed money can either come from (please add to the list
if I missed anything):
1. large Co's (FANG, etc.)
2. traditional VCs
3. non-traditional VCs

#1 I am not hopeful -- and if there's anyone on this list who can help
move a needle in that direction I'd love to hear about that

#2 the feedback universally is "you're proposing to build a
marketplace, there's a few already (e.g. Tidelif), please 

Re: Thoughts on alternative communication channels for our communities

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 7:09 PM Rich Bowen  wrote:

>
>
> >> I still fail to understand the reason for looking for alternatives to
> >> MLs for managing ASF projects...
>
> It's less a question of us looking for alternatives, and more a question
> of observing the broader open source community and seeing that the
> younger/newer participants in this space want something different,
> expect something different, and are turned off by the current state of
> things.
>
> > Honestly -- I don't think we have a choice. At least I don't that we have
> > when it comes to users. Those will engage with us in whatever manner
> > they seem to perceive as most natural and it seems that in 2022 email
> > is definitely not the first thing that comes to the users' mind.
> >
> > So... the choice we have to make is to -- either meet our users where
> > they seem to be looking for us (or at least half-way) OR agree that
> > we will be forever cut off from quite a number of them.
>
> Yes, this is 100% it. I've long said that to reach our audience, you
> have to go where they are, and engage with them there. "Just subscribe
> to the mailing list", while an acceptable answer 10 years ago, is like
> speaking a foreign language today.
>

+1000! Which brings me to: I guess the outcomes of this thread I see
seem to be:
  1. make sure foundation itself provides an MVP for at least two
 styles of communication channels ("topic grouped channels"
 and "instant messaging channels"). We've got email and perhaps
 Matrix could be a good enough answer to the 2nd requirement.

  2. The best we can do on everything else is simply collect a sort
   of FAQ advising our communities on places they should consider
   monitoring/engaging so that they "go where [users] are" to your
point.

Anything else I am missing?

Thanks,
Roman.



> The process (email this cryptic address, wait for the cryptic response
> that you get, and follow the instructions in it, and hope for the best,
> then email this *other* address to talk to us) is just too involved,
> unintuitive, and just seems intentionally byzantine, to the people we're
> trying to engage with today. It makes sense to me, because I've been
> doing it for almost 30 years. But we need to listen to our audience,
> because they are no longer interested in jumping through arbitrary hoops
> when they can just go ask on Reddit instead.
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>
>

Re: Thoughts on alternative communication channels for our communities

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 9:23 PM Bertrand Delacretaz 
wrote:

> Le mar. 1 mars 2022 à 20:12, Mark Thomas  a écrit :
> > ...Why re-invert the wheel?
> >
> > https://matrix.org/ ...
>
> Would we need to run our own Matrix servers if we want to make it an
> alternative for our projects?
>
> Using https://matrix.org/docs/projects/server/synapse ?
> (which is written in Python - good thing for us as that's ASF infra's
> default language)
>

I'd be very much in favor of ASF offering its own medium for "real time
communications"
to augment Slack. Today the foundation doesn't have anything that would fit
that
description other than IRC (and I really think that's not enough these
days). I have
a lot of issues with us relying on Slack (including forcing ppl to have
accounts there).

So the way I see it is this: foundation offering email and Matrix would
provide an MVP
for independent channels of communications for our communities (and then we
can
even do things like
https://matrix.org/docs/projects/bridge/matrix-appservice-slack)

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: Effective ways of getting individuals funded to work on ASF projects

[Roman Shaposhnik]

Hi!

top-posting here, since I'd like to summarize a few points to see where we
can
take this discussion. Before I do that I wanted to thank Bertrand and Jim
for
excellent, short emails/summaries and also special thanks to Chris for an
extremely informative recap of his efforts.

Personally, I'd like to focus on 3 things. Please let me know if I'm missing
anything or you disagree:

1. building a robust list of what we at ASF perceive as potential value
that can be offered to *our* members, committers and contributors
by the 3d parties like Tidelift (again, I'm simply using them as an
example here -- anybody else would do just fine).

2. building a list of "rules of engagement" that we feel must be met
for these types of relationships to be compatible with the way we
govern our communities.

3. document all the learning, pitfalls, etc. that we've collectively
amassed by trying to solve this type of a problem on a one-by-one
basis.

To expand on those points: I really do think that 3d parties (if done
right) can take care of a lot of pain points for us. Again -- I'm NOT
saying that a magic entity like that even exists today (maybe Tidelift
is really not the right solution for us -- dunno yet) -- what I'm saying
is that I really would like to understand how that type of a service
should look like. Or take Jarek's example of ridesharing: most
of people focus on ridesharing companies just matching riders to
drivers, but that's just the tip of the iceberg -- ridesharing companies
solve huge amounts of arbitration issues (such as insurance, license,
etc.). Common folk don't get to see those -- but that's a huge value they
offer to drivers (and arguably riders) on top of just finding "customers".
Same with 3d parties for us I have in mind (see Chris's list of gotchas).

For now, I propose a few Cofluence pages under ComDev where this
type of information gets collected. I'll do it later tonight -- so feel free
to just add to this thread for now.

Once we've collected that type of info -- we can then sort of "evaluate
vendors" against that list and see what they are missing, etc. We can
even issue a wide "call to apply" for various companies if we feel like it.

Makes sense?

Thanks,
Roman.

On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 9:43 AM Bertrand Delacretaz 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Le lun. 28 févr. 2022 à 21:15, Jarek Potiuk  a écrit :
>
> > ...Proposal:
> > I think we all agree that ASF meets the criteria of Tidelift already.
> > Why don't Tidelift (in the places where open-source projects included are
> > listed) explain that ASF projects meet the criteria, and any one is free
> > to deal directly with the committers of all ASF projects directly...
>
> I'd say we all agree that *in theory* ASF projects meet Tidelift's
> criteria, quoting from earlier in this thread, with my own numbering
> added:
>
> Le lun. 28 févr. 2022 à 19:30, Joshua Simmons
>  a écrit :
> > ...*What Tidelift expects from maintainers*Maintainers provide two
> things to
> > our customers: (1) information (licensing details, context on CVEs) and
> > (2) continuity (comfort that the package is maintained and is highly
> likely to
> > continue to be maintained). We also expect maintainers (3) to abide by a
> Code
> > of Conduct
>
> I think for (3) we're good, the ASF will intervene if projects are not ok.
>
> But for (1) and (2) I think the ASF *wants* our projects to be good
> citizens, and we work towards that and support them, but entities such
> as Tidelift or others could add value by measuring and reporting what
> actually happens.
>
> Does Apache FOO actually provide good information on security issues and
> CVEs?
> Timely response? What's their average/min/max response time, how many
> "in-flight" CVEs?
> Does Apache FOO release often enough? Maybe based on project maturity
> categories, new, established, mostly dormant etc.
>
> We could of course measure these things ourselves, and we do have some
> data.
>
> But I think having external entities provide factual data on how well
> our projects are doing can be useful, and for customers of Tidelift
> and the like that certainly has value.
>
> Whatever mechanism our contributors use to finance themselves, having
> information on which projects are most worthy of trust can help end
> users select and finance the right projects and people.
>
> -Bertrand
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>
>

Re: Thoughts on alternative communication channels for our communities

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Sun, Feb 27, 2022 at 11:59 PM Gilles Sadowski 
wrote:

> Le dim. 27 févr. 2022 à 23:11, Jarek Potiuk  a écrit :
> >
> > >
> > > It rather seems to me that tools targeted to synchronous
> > > communication are quite bad for asynchronous usage.
> > >
> >
> > I quite disagree, I use slack for async communication a lot. Including
> > underrepresented in IT Outreachy (https://www.outreachy.org/)  interns
> that
> > I am mentoring - from India, Peru and Nigeria that I am interacting with
> > them over the last 3 months of their internship Most of that is
> > asynchronous because I live in Poland which is about 12 hours apart from
> > both India and Peru. And we have different holidays schedules. Heck -
> > another mentor for the project is in Israel where Sunday is a working day
> > and Friday is not. VAST majority of our communication is done by Slack.
> >
> > Could you please explain what are your experiences that are somehow bad?
> > What are the success/failure stories you can share ? Please. some
> examples.
> > I can provide a dosen of those that led to successes and failures and
> > learning from those.
>
> I'm not trying to argue about others's people preference; any tool
> can be used.  It's just that I don't think that "it's newer/graphical" is
> a reason for change.
>
> Two years ago, we used Slack for synchronous GSoC meetings
> (which had its merits).
> However, the issue here (IIUC) is to replace "If it did not happen
> on the ML, then it did not happen" (where "ML" is the _primary_
> channel, not a mere "read-only", after the fact, archive of a decision
> taken elsewhere).
>
> >
> > But to be perfectly clear the Github Discussions example I've shown is
> 100%
> > asynchronous - apparently you missed that point.
>
> So, in addition to dropping the MLs, is the plan to force everyone
> to subscribe to GitHub?
>
> > > Assuming that I'm only subscribed to some project's "dev@" ML, how
> > > can I interact with either of those solutions?
> > >
> >
> > * Point 1 - I have not seen "no need to subscribe to interact" as a
> > requirement. I probably missed it. But I am sure you can point me in the
> > right direction.
>
> There are ASF subscription requirements associated with various
> roles (committers, PMC, etc.).
> GitHub/Slack/etc. are not yet among them so it seems weird that
> those channels could bypass the official ones.
>
> > * Point 2. But even if I missed it - for Github Discussions it is enough
> to
> > reply to the email you get - with your personal email. You must have
> missed
> > the point as well. It's full interaction, you "reply-to" and your entry
> is
> > part of the discussion. Does it qualify as interaction ?
>
> Yes. [I asked for clarification about this, earlier in the thread.  Did
> INFRA
> ever advertised that it would work?]
>
> > Or do we need more
> > ? What else do we need?
>
> Next time I wish to intervene in GH discussion, I'll try it. ;-)
>
> > > I still fail to understand the reason for looking for alternatives toth
> > > MLs for managing ASF projects...
> > >
> >
> > Maybe the many thousands of people who do not know how to subscribe -
> from
> > China - as mentioned before, in the thread. I am not sure if that's
> enough
> > of an argument for you.
>
> Do you mean that those people don't have an email address, or cannot
> click on a subscription link in a browser?
>

>From what I understand -- those people just don't feel comfortable being
compelled doing that.

Imagine if you were asked to follow a Gopher link? Kind of the same (btw,
amazingly Gopher is actually not quite dead in 2022).

Now, you may find it ridiculous -- but it is actually very much a thing
(especially in the countries that did NOT have robust internet
participation in the 80s-90s).

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: Effective ways of getting individuals funded to work on ASF projects

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Sun, Feb 27, 2022 at 11:11 PM Gary Gregory 
wrote:

> We just went through this with Log4j and decided that the Tidelift model
> was not compatible with Apache. Hopefully someone on our PMC can provide a
> recap.
>

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I remember there wasn't any attempt
to work with TideLift on changing the engagement model on their end,
was there?
This time I'm suggesting that we work together with TideLift to come up
with the new rules (or to agree -- together -- that no such rules exist).

Basically, the exercise I'm suggesting is different.

Still, the kind of recap you have in mind would be super useful.

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: Thoughts on alternative communication channels for our communities

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Sun, Feb 27, 2022 at 10:55 PM Gilles Sadowski 
wrote:

> Le dim. 27 févr. 2022 à 21:13, Jarek Potiuk  a écrit :
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Do any of the mentioned alternatives fulfill those requirements?
> > >
> >
> > I think most - with very little investment on taking backup (same as we
> do
> > with ponymail today).
>
> It rather seems to me that tools targeted to synchronous
> communication are quite bad for asynchronous usage.
>
> >
> > Two examples:
> >
> > * http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org/ Apache Airflow public slack.
> > searchable and owned by us: Developed by one of our PMC members in his
> free
> > time. Solves "public", "owned", "searchable". With little effort can be
> > made offline-usable (it's a simple web app that loads the backup of slack
> > messages), It even looks nice. The only thing it lacks currently is
> support
> > for thread display.
> > * For Github discussion as I mentioned before it's just making sure you
> > subscribe to emails (same as current Ponymail backup).
>
> Assuming that I'm only subscribed to some project's "dev@" ML, how
> can I interact with either of those solutions?
>

You can't really. But at least the ML gets all the traffic (so it is
solving 1/2 of the problem).


>
> > I think it's not a matter of "limitation" of certain media, bit more a
> > question of a little "investment" into some popular solutions to make
> them
> > fulfill the requirements we have and a way that INFRA provides
> instructions
> > and possible some little infrastructure and possibly "verification" for
> > those popular media used by different PMC. Same as currently providing
> > support for Ponymail (which is essentially a 3rd-party tool as well),
> > It is more effort to support more solutions - yes, but INFRA can also tap
> > into support of the PMCs that want to use different tools to help with
> > making the effort to make it "blessed".
>
> I still fail to understand the reason for looking for alternatives to
> MLs for managing ASF projects...
>

Honestly -- I don't think we have a choice. At least I don't that we have
when it comes to users. Those will engage with us in whatever manner
they seem to perceive as most natural and it seems that in 2022 email
is definitely not the first thing that comes to the users' mind.

So... the choice we have to make is to -- either meet our users where
they seem to be looking for us (or at least half-way) OR agree that
we will be forever cut off from quite a number of them.

Thanks,
Roman.

Effective ways of getting individuals funded to work on ASF projects

[Roman Shaposhnik]

Hi!

over the past couple of years there has been a number
of efforts trying to figure out effective ways of getting funded
for working on ASF projects as individuals and not employees
at companies building on top of these projects.

Chris's recent experience is but one of them:
https://lists.apache.org/thread/momxgzzyq03lz54knvzhxm16r8j40vog

My personal frustration with all these threads is that we never
seem to arrive at any actionable suggestions for how developers
like Chris can *easily* create these additional income streams.

Rightfully, we at ASF basically say that it must be a 3d party issue
to solve. It very much is. The problem is that doing so one one-off
just perpetuates the logistical pain of setting up contracts, etc. etc.
This creates a pretty significant barrier and, as Chris's experience
would suggest it typically becomes too insurmountable for individual
developers.

Sure, there have been interesting attempts to "hack the system"
and use things like GitCoin, BugMark and a few others to solve for
this "how do we get back to our open source roots when individuals,
not corporations were the economic agents around open source".
But I honestly don't know of any of them becoming viable either.
At least not so far.

At the risk of tilting at windmills once again, I'd like to see if there's
enough interest to take a crack at this problem yet again.

And in the spirit of "hacking the system" I'd like to suggest that we
focus on a 3d party solving it for us. In fact, I suggest we pick a
very particular 3d party -- TideLift

https://support.tidelift.com/hc/en-us/articles/4406293106324-Quickstart-guide

Now, before you exclaim "who the heck appointed TideLift to solve it for
us?"
I'd be the first one to admit that I picked them because I know them
really well and I do think they are the closest to giving us some of the
answers.
But above all, I'm suggesting we look at TideLift because they seem to
be very much willing to work with us on actually changing their engagement
model to fit our needs. IOW, it is not like their rules are cast in stone
-- we can
assume they are malleable. If anyone knows of a similar 3d party -- let's
discuss
that too.

If, however, there's a general consensus about seriously looking
at them as that 3d party -- I'd like to start collecting names of ASF
developers (and PMCs) who would be willing to participate in
a trial program with them of sorts and report back.

If you have comments on anything above -- please reply in-thread.

If you'd be interested in this trial -- you can either do that or just
reply to me personally.

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: Thoughts on alternative communication channels for our communities

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Sun, Feb 27, 2022 at 9:13 PM Jarek Potiuk  wrote:

> >
> >
> > Do any of the mentioned alternatives fulfill those requirements?
> >
>
> I think most - with very little investment on taking backup (same as we do
> with ponymail today).
>
> Two examples:
>
> * http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org/ Apache Airflow public slack.
> searchable and owned by us: Developed by one of our PMC members in his free
> time. Solves "public", "owned", "searchable". With little effort can be
> made offline-usable (it's a simple web app that loads the backup of slack
> messages), It even looks nice. The only thing it lacks currently is support
> for thread display.
>

This is VERY nice! I'd really like to see some kind of a public
searchability on all popular ASF slack channels.


> * For Github discussion as I mentioned before it's just making sure you
> subscribe to emails (same as current Ponymail backup).
>
> I think it's not a matter of "limitation" of certain media, bit more a
> question of a little "investment" into some popular solutions to make them
> fulfill the requirements we have and a way that INFRA provides instructions
> and possible some little infrastructure and possibly "verification" for
> those popular media used by different PMC. Same as currently providing
> support for Ponymail (which is essentially a 3rd-party tool as well),
>
> It is more effort to support more solutions - yes, but INFRA can also tap
> into support of the PMCs that want to use different tools to help with
> making the effort to make it "blessed".
>

Yeah, I'm thinking that perhaps what is emerging from this thread is a
requirement to have some tooling that would allow ANYTHING -> ASF ML flow
(just for archive and searchabililty purposes). Or will this be too useless
for more "real time" style communications?

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: Thoughts on alternative communication channels for our communities

[Roman Shaposhnik]

Hi tison!

On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 7:06 PM tison  wrote:

> Hi Roman,
>
> I noticed your summary and focus on user-facing channels. Comments inline.
>
> Roman Shaposhnik 于2022年2月22日 周二23:32写道：
>
> > Thanks for all the feedback so far. If I were to summarize what's been
> > expressed
> > on this thread so far, it seems that we're all agreeing that:
> >1. Even if mailing lists appear to be clunky in 2022 they are still
> > appreciated
> > as THE channel for any kind of "official" ASF business to be
> conducted
> > (e.g. major decision points, voting, etc.). In that sense -- whatever
> > other
> > channels may have been used to build consensus -- the final (or
> > official
> > if you will) closure is expected to happen on a mailing list.
>
>
> Yes. Actually communication happens in various way, public or private,
> despite of the rules we set up or encourage. But we still need a single
> source of truth for catching up decisions and mailing list works well in
> this direction.
>
> 2. There are TONS of alternative communication channels for developers
> > and users to explore and it is unlikely that we will have any
> semblance
> > of convergence there -- these are too fragmented by geographical,
> > cultural,
> > language and other preferences.
> >
> > Now, if I were to make an observation, I'd split our constituency in 3 of
> > the
> > usual concentric circles: PMC, Developers/Committers, Users.
> >
> > It sounds like making sure that all official PMC business to be conducted
> > on the
> > mailing list is not only desirable from the ASF's perspective but also
> > [mostly]
> > appreciated by the PMCs themselves. That leaves Developers/Committers and
> > Users.
> >
> > My biggest problem is actually with users -- it seems that having all
> these
> > extra
> > communication channels makes it more difficult for newcomers to find good
> > entry points re: engaging with the projects -- or maybe not. That's still
> > not clear
> > to me and I would love to hear more feedback.
> >
> > What do ppl think?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Roman.
>
>
> I think the challenge here for the wider community of developers and users
> are somehow the same - community members who are less involved tends to use
> the channel they're familiar with and responsive.
>
> Why GitHub issues and discussions mentioned many times? It's because that
> the actual development activities happens there for those projects and
> questions or discussion thrown there get responses. The point that you
> don't have to create a new account is important as mentioned above in this
> thread.
>

I am actually curious about those -- what has been everyone's experience
with Googling for things in GH issues/threads?

Now let's think of a typical journey of a user. The most frequently asked
> question is "How do I do X". It should be almost covered by documents, and
> when documents cannot solve the question, communication requirements occur.
>
> No matter what channel it provides, a user@ mailing list, an Q GitHub
> discussion, or a user forum, what users want eagerly is to get response and
> answered. Always a project's README should tell where you can ask a
> question and make sure it's THE channel you put an eye on.
>

Honestly, for me that question always starts with a google query -- so I
guess the real issue is whatever provides the best Google's score and shows
up sooner will win. That's on the R/O side. So I think that is fine. But if
a user decides to participate -- I believe then it becomes highly dependent
on the user's previous experience, age, background, etc. Not sure we can do
much here -- but it would be useful to see some kind of a study tracking
what makes new users engage in the quickest possible way when they try
doing it for the first time.


> Users preference matters here since the cost here may be too high to just
> ask a question but subscribing a mailing list and receiving all
> notification. Especially younger users may be even lack of knowledge to
> subscribe a mailing list (it's common in China).
>

Exactly. So... let me ask you this: do you know a project or two in ASF that
does it the best for its Chinese users? I'd really love to learn from those
experiences.


> This can be something like "friction". Users used to ask on StackOverflow
> won't be willing to switch to another channel for one question.


> On communication tools topic, I always sort out channels into 2×2 kinds.
>

I really like your split, btw.


>
> 1. topic grouped channel
>

I guess email would qualify here for ASF.


> 2. inst

Re: Thoughts on alternative communication channels for our communities

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 10:19 AM Zhiyuan Ju  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I involved in the Apache APISIX Community since 2019, and I would prefer to
> keep using the mailing list than other ways.  There have been
> some challenges like not a friendly way to discuss codes, not every
> volunteer or contributor watching the mailing list, and so on, but there
> also have advantages:
>
> 1. It's public, archived, and searchable. When the APISIX project is was
> not donated to the ASF, maintainers search historical mails from other ASF
> projects and follow the guidelines, without much help to ask "How to do
> this?" again and again.
> 2. We could use Slack to discuss things of course, but if the community is
> very active and there will have lots of unread messages, it's indeed a
> challenge for me personally.
> 3. I agree that many projects tend to use other tools to discuss than a
> mailing list, like Slack and Discord, they're ok because our goal is to
> keep things transparent and clear (personally think), also the project
> community is active and healthy.
> 4. As for "If it did not happen on the ML, then it did not happen.", it's
> our foundation's community culture, it doesn't conflict with other tools.
> No matter which tool we use, don't forget what's our goal :)
>

Thanks for all the feedback so far. If I were to summarize what's been
expressed
on this thread so far, it seems that we're all agreeing that:
   1. Even if mailing lists appear to be clunky in 2022 they are still
appreciated
as THE channel for any kind of "official" ASF business to be conducted
(e.g. major decision points, voting, etc.). In that sense -- whatever
other
channels may have been used to build consensus -- the final (or official
if you will) closure is expected to happen on a mailing list.

2. There are TONS of alternative communication channels for developers
and users to explore and it is unlikely that we will have any semblance
of convergence there -- these are too fragmented by geographical,
cultural,
language and other preferences.

Now, if I were to make an observation, I'd split our constituency in 3 of
the
usual concentric circles: PMC, Developers/Committers, Users.

It sounds like making sure that all official PMC business to be conducted
on the
mailing list is not only desirable from the ASF's perspective but also
[mostly]
appreciated by the PMCs themselves. That leaves Developers/Committers and
Users.

My biggest problem is actually with users -- it seems that having all these
extra
communication channels makes it more difficult for newcomers to find good
entry points re: engaging with the projects -- or maybe not. That's still
not clear
to me and I would love to hear more feedback.

What do ppl think?

Thanks,
Roman.

Thoughts on alternative communication channels for our communities

[Roman Shaposhnik]

Hi!

while the classical ASF communication culture is pretty squarely
centered around mailing lists it has become apparent in recent
years that some of our communities (especially younger ones)
prefer using alternative channels of communication. The range
is pretty wide from Slack to Telegram and WeChat (and I have
even heard of an occasional TikTok use ;-)).

The question that originated from one of the board meetings and
the one that I'd like to pose for this forum is basically: what's our
collective advice to these communities on these alternative (and
when I say alternative I really mean anything but a mailing list)
communication channels?

Personally I don't think denying them is a viable strategy, but I'd
like to open up this discussion and see what others think.

So... let's at least start with folks sharing their experience with
these alternative communication channels: the good, the bad
and the ugly.

Personally, I don't think I have much to share -- I'm still very
much a mailing list guy when it comes to ASF.

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: Tidelift

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 3:51 AM Dave Fisher  wrote:
>
> Jared, I like your descriptions! If you replace sponsor with vendor it should 
> be very familiar to us all!

First of all: +1 to Jarek's idea.

Second of all, now that I have the board's blessing to go and explore
the Tidelift-like situations in more details -- I'm about to start a
new (more meta if you will) thread on this soon.

Stay tuned (I'm traveling + waiting on a few data points to arrive
from Tidelift and others).

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: Tidelift

[Roman Shaposhnik]

Jim said:

> IMO, the foundation and the project should do nothing associated with
this. It should neither encourage or condone it. In no way should we enter
into any agreement, contract, whatever, w/ Tidelift. If Tidelift wishes to
work independently and directly w/ people, that's fine. But having the ASF
and/or the project involved at any level should be disallowed.

This is exactly what I said on the LEGAL JIRA. So +1 to this framing. Now,
personally, I think Tidelift can be a great ally of Open Source in general
and as such I'm personally extremely willing to work with them to make sure
they come up with tweaks for their model that make sense to us and other
Open Source projects. More on that below:

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 7:56 AM Sam Ruby  wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 4:50 PM Ralph Goers 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > Recently the Logging Services PMC was approached by Tidelift offering to
> provide monetary support either to the project or individual committers. To
> obtain that sponsorship the project has to agree to the terms at
> https://support.tidelift.com/hc/en-us/articles/4406309657876-Lifter-agreement.
> It appears that Struts has accepted this already.
>
> Perusing the agreement, I see talk of payment, license, and trademark.
> So let's cover that, and the topic we want to cover, the Apache Way.
>
> Let's be welcoming and friendly, and focus more on what they need to
> do, rather than on what they must not do
>

Huge +1 to the above. I really feel that Tidelift is onto something here
and am very much willing to work with them (even in my personal capacity).


> Outline:
>
> * So you want to pay a contributor?  Great!  If that is something you
> wish to do, do so directly with each contributor as this is not a
> service the ASF provides.  Just make sure that each contributori is
> aware of each of the five points listed on The Apache Way page[1].  In
> particular, be aware that each individual contribution will be
> evaluated on its merits and require consensus before being accepted.
>
> * All code must be licensed only under the Apache Software License,
> with no additional conditions.  Should an individual contributor
> become a committer, they will be required to sign an ICLA.  You are
> welcome to sign a CCLA.
>
> * You are welcome to make nominative use of our trademarks.  If you
> require anything more, see out Trademark Policy[2].
>
> [1] https://www.apache.org/theapacheway/
> [2] https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/


I'd like to refocus this thread (or perhaps fork a new one) on expanding
this useful list started by Sam. I also plan to talk to Tidelift later this
week so having as much data points as I possibly can would be super useful.

Anyone has anything else they feel like adding to the above list?

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: Update to ICLA to include github id

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 7:21 PM Craig Russell  wrote:
>
> Hi Roman,
>
> I understand that GitHub now recommends (not enforced) that people use a 
> single
> GitHub id for all of their interactions on the service, and to specifically 
> delete all
> accounts except for the one account. They can then merge the deleted accounts
> to their one account.

Where is this coming from? Do you have a URL? I'm simply asking because it goes
directly against most employer's recommendations that I know of.

> [So this is different from Google mail accounts, which Google encourages 
> folks to have multiple accounts for different purposes.]
>
> If people have multiple GitHub accounts, the one on the ICLA would be the one 
> that they plan to have associated with their Apache id in future.
>
> Apache will only allow an Apache id to be associated with one GitHub id so I 
> think we are ok there. Happy to have operations verify this.

There's a LOT of things to unpack here, but I'm still not sure what
problem are we trying to solve.

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: Update to ICLA to include github id

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 6:03 PM Craig Russell  wrote:
>
> I propose to modify the ICLA to include the submitter's github id. These 
> days, with GitHub, projects propose new committers and all they really know 
> about them is the contributors' github id. This sometimes makes it 
> challenging for Secretary to find the corresponding PMC vote, which delays 
> things. If the github id is included in the ICLA, it's much easier to verify 
> the project and the status of the contributor.

My immediate reaction: which one of half a dozed GH IDs do you mean?
(and yes, people have been train to segregate between different
employees, organizations, etc.)

Also, I'm really not quite sure what verification step knowing ONE of
these IDs would help. Can you please elaborate?

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: New Apache.org product concept: Digital Merit Badges

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 5:19 AM Daniel Gruno  wrote:

> I had a similar idea some years back, but with a slightly more
> tongue-in-cheek approach.
>

>From a peanut gallery: whatever we do THE ABOVE is the attitude I would
advocate -- take it seriously and you stand a real chance of ruining your
community.

Thanks,
Roman.


>
> Some sample "merits" I had in mind then:
>
> - 1,000 commits within a year
> - 5,000 commits in total
> - 1,000 emails to our lists
> - Annoyed Sally more than 5 times
> - Caused at least one CVE
> - *Fixed* at least that one CVE...
>
> Well, you can see what I'm talking about. It's probably not what many
> people would be wanting... :p  (I would tick all the above boxes btw!)
>
> But activity-based merits could be a fun comdev projects. We have access
> to the stats through Kibble, so we could auto-generate a bunch of them.
>
> With regards,
> Daniel.
>
> On 05/04/2021 14.10, Jarek Potiuk wrote:
> > I like the idea.
> >
> > It's very similar to what has already been done at the ApacheCon every
> > year. you got the "badges" that you could attach to your generic
> > "conference badge".
> >
> > https://twitter.com/wusheng1108/status/1171101885664595968
> >
> > J.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 1:43 PM Liu Ted 
> wrote:
> >
> >> I like this idea.
> >>
> >> Ted Liu
> >>
> >> 在 2021 年 4月 月 5 日週一，時間：16:42 ， Matthew Sacks <
> matt...@matthewsacks.com>
> >> 寫道：   Summary: Digital Merit badges
> >> ASF participation and responsibility are based on merit. So like other
> >> merit-based organizations, why not have a digital merit badge. It would
> >> slow your name and summarize your involvement and contributions
> (volunteer,
> >> committer, member, board member, founding member, etc.).
> >> Also, what projects you work on.
> >>
> >> Other examples of design: Trust Certification badges:
> >>
> >>
> https://trustarc.com/truste-certifications/enterprise-privacy-certification/
> >>
> >> What it’s not: social score, that’s not what I’m proposing.
> >>
> >> If an ASF member, committee, and volunteer involvement are based on
> merit,
> >> why not have a digital merit badge that shows what they’ve done?
> >>
> >> Like other organizations based on merit, there are usually badges
> >> recognizing one's contributions to that contributor.
> >>
> >> I’m thinking to list the following on the badge:
> >> - committer, member, volunteer, board member, founder, etc
> >> - year joined
> >>
> >> If you click the badge, it will take you to a profile page with:
> >> - Projects they contribute/contributed to
> >> - Apachcon participation, presentations, etc
> >> - Apache.org personal homepage (if they have one)
> >>
> >>  From a marketing perspective, it also expands the ASF “brand” and
> >> reputation. You have many of the best software engineers and IT
> >> professionals in the world helping make better software available to
> >> commercial companies as well as public organizations and individuals
> >>
> >> If LinkedIn displayed a dynamically generated badge validated by an
> >> ASF-hosted infra API (blockchain validated) on Roy Fielding or JimJag’s
> >> LinkedIn page, for example, wouldn’t that be of interest in expanding
> ASF
> >> reach? It could increase volunteering, donations, page views, and more
> >> benefits.
> >>
> >> Not just LinkedIn, but maybe RedHat, Microsoft, maybe Apple (probably
> not),
> >> Oracle, IBM, AWS, Google could get a Platinum sponsor badge to show
> their
> >> pride for supporting the ASF as a major corporation. More corporations
> will
> >> follow suit.
> >>
> >>
> >> Thoughts?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Thank you, Matthew
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
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Re: One year anniversary of ALC Beijing

[Roman Shaposhnik]

This is really amazing! Huge kudos to all who made it happen -- I wish we
had more ALCs like that!

Thanks,
Roman.

On Fri, Feb 26, 2021 at 4:09 PM Willem Jiang  wrote:

> Hi
>
>
> This is Willem Jiang, the chapter leader of Apache Local Community
> Beijing[1], and I am beyond thrilled to share with you the joy and
> excitement of ALC Beijing’s one year anniversary.
>
>
> ALC Beijing was officially founded on February 27th, 2020, with a
> mission of promoting Apache way and Open Source culture in China. ALC
> Beijing is committed to bringing local open source enthusiasts
> together by hosting events and publishing articles . By sharing open
> source development experience, ALC Beijing encourages more people
> (especially the university students) to participate in ASF projects.
> ALC Beijing also plays a role of facilitating the mutual cooperations
> of ASF projects. ALC Beijing aims to advocate ASF projects by working
> closely with the local developer teams to host meetups, and sharing
> the Open Source governance experience of ASF by translating the policy
> documentations.
>
>
> Over a year, ALC Beijing has reached a milestone in community culture
> building. Despite the fact that due to the pandemic we were not able
> to host the events in half of last year, we still managed to host 2
> ALC meetups and participated in 2 co-events[2]. We have met hundreds
> of Open Source enthusiasts in Beijing through these events. We also
> started a local social media public account (ALC Beijing official
> WeChat public account) to publish 60 articles which focus on the
> interpretation of Apache Way, the latest updates of ASF projects, and
> other related information about local projects. Now The account has
> achieved 1,600 subscribers.
>
>
> ALC Beijing also has published 9 original podcast episodes[3][4] on
> its own channel, and has achieved over 4,600 plays. The podcast
> included the sharing of experience from those who just graduated from
> Apache Incubator, and the success stories which could encourage more
> university students to participate in open source projects.
>
>
> ALC Beijing further accelerated the progress of culture-building by
> translating Apache 20 Anniversary documentary subtitles, Apache
> Incubator Cookbook and Apache License[5] so that the enthusiasts in
> China could enjoy the work with fewer language barriers.
>
>
> With all the help from Apache and members, ALC Beijing is determined
> to serve everyone who is interested in open source. We look forward to
> sharing with you about more accomplishments of ALC Beijing in the near
> future.
>
> [1]https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ALC+Beijing
> [2]https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ALC+Beijing+Events
> [3]]
> https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/alc-beijing-podcast/id1523278501?uo=4=1001lsYj
> [4]https://www.ximalaya.com/keji/37853515/
> [5]https://github.com/alc-beijing/translation
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Willem
>
>
> Twitter: willemjiang
> Weibo: 姜宁willem
>
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Re: Apache in Month of November 2020 (News Video)

[Roman Shaposhnik]

Very nicely done! Kudos!

Thanks,
Roman.

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 12:10 AM Swapnil M Mane  wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> Hope you are doing well.
> Recently I have experimented with a video on Apache News Roundup.
> Here is what happened this month in Apache.
>
> https://youtu.be/daud_G6YyV0
>
> I am also working on more videos and content for spreading Apache and
> open source awareness, I will keep you posted on this.
> More content can be found at the YouTube channel 'Open Source Wave'
> https://s.apache.org/OpenSourceWave
>
>
> Thanks & regards,
> Swapnil M Mane,
> www.apache.org
>
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Re: ALC, and who can speak on behalf of Apache

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 12:15 PM Rich Bowen  wrote:
>
> I've made two posts on this list in the past couple of days regarding
> the rising ACL effort and my concerns about it.
>
> I *desperately* want this kind of grass-roots enthusiast community
> effort. I do NOT want to kill it. But I've learned from Fedora user
> groups that allowing any random stranger to start up a group, using our
> Trademarks, to promote whatever message comes into their head, is
> *going* to bite us in the butt, sooner rather than later.
>
> This is *NOT* about the Indore group and their recent event. Rather it's
> about the future. The groups currently out there are full of experienced
> Apache people. All well and good. The second wave will be full of people
> wanting to promote their business, or their personal brand, using our
> name, and spreading misinformation about Apache under our official banner.
>
> We *cannot* allow this to happen. To do so would be a dereliction of our
> duty as a PMC. We must plan for the bad actors, even while enabling the
> good actors.
>
> I'm not entirely sure what I'm proposing, but I think that requiring, at
> this stage, at least one Member to be involved in the creation and
> mentoring of a new group, is a reasonable path.
>
> A brief discussion of these issues has occurred on the
> priv...@community.apache.org mailing list, where I was rightfully called
> out for having the conversation in private rather than in public. So,
> moving the conversation here, as is appropriate.

One potential (if not solution -- but at least a line of thought) could be
to bring these efforts into the fold officially by requiring them to be
official sub-projects of ComDev PMC. Then we can have a policy requiring
a certain governance oversight over those sub-projects (like requiring
a certain # of PMC/members, etc.).

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: Workshop about the future of Open Source Software and Open Source Hardware

[Roman Shaposhnik]

A bit of a belated reply -- but this looks very interesting to me on
both open source and business sized (my company -- ZEDEDA is right in
the middle of all this change).

So... a question: how can I sign up for this event?

Thanks,
Roman.

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 2:26 AM Christofer Dutz
 wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> They already changed the wording slightly ... now they write that Siemens 
> MindSphere USES a lot of Open-Source software.
> Still not happy with it being mentioned directly after the: "There are a lot 
> of Open-Source platforms", but it sort of feels as if Siemens had pulled some 
> strings to be mentioned here (The official Agenda doesn't even mention 
> "Siemens" or "MindSphere")
>
> I just discussed this with my boss and I'll probably be going.
> Would however be great to show up there with a little (or a big) Apache 
> delegation.
> The big commercial players could be showing up with quite a delegation.
> After all it's not about Apache PLC4X, but could involve a great portion of 
> what Apache does.
> And especially the Panel discussions about:
>
> "Panel 2.2: Nurturing Open Source Communities
> In the backdrop of the increasing popularity and use of open source
> software, it is a paradox that many open source projects continue to
> struggle to sustain themselves. Remarkably, sustainability issues
> afflict not just the small and medium-sized project, but also some of
> the larger and well-known ones.
> The success of open source software initiatives often goes hand in
> hand with the success of their communities. So what are the success
> factors leading to a sustainable community? What are the key
> challenges open source projects face? More importantly, what can
> and should be done about the sustainability and funding issue?
> This session invites a brief discussion to identify key sustainability
> concerns, followed by two deeper debates on practical
> proposals/solutions to solve (i) Sustainability issues (ii) Funding
> issues. The session combines results and inputs from the
> Commission’s EU-FOSSA project and the Commission’s Open
> Source Observatory (OSOR)"
>
> "Panel 7: Improving openness, trust and security thanks to open
> source
> The advent of emerging technologies like Artificial Intelligence and
> block chain and the exponential increase on cybersecurity threats
> made the demand for security, trust and transparency in decision
> making as key priorities in designing ICT systems. Open source is seen
> as a mechanism to ensure such characteristics. The purpose of this
> session is to highlight the role of Open Source towards achieving
> security, trust and transparency in decision-making. What are the
> strengths but also what are the weaknesses and limitations? The
> session combines results and inputs from the Commission’s EUFOSSA project."
>
> Chris
>
> Am 07.10.19, 10:38 schrieb "Julian Feinauer" :
>
> Hi all,
>
> sorry for being late to the party.
> I totally agree with all that has been written.
> And although I will not be able to participate I think we should work on 
> having them correct that (on paper and in their minds).
> Probably we could even do that as an official statement of the ASF or use 
> some contacts to other OSS initiatives.
> As I see that as a rather general matter to hijack "OSS".
>
> What do you think?
>
> Julian
>
> Am 06.10.19, 11:48 schrieb "Christofer Dutz" :
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> Yes, that too was my impression. I remember the amount of work you 
> put in here. But it seems that Siemens likes to appear open without actually 
> being open for open source. That's why I contacted the organizers and tried 
> to convince them to correct this paragraph and suffered that they invite 
> tuely open open-source communities.
>
> I'll be discussing with my boss, if I can attend.
>
> Chris
>
> Holen Sie sich Outlook für Android
>
> 
> From: Michael Osipov 
> Sent: Saturday, October 5, 2019 6:31:01 PM
> To: dev@community.apache.org ; Christofer 
> Dutz ; i...@apache.org 
> Subject: Re: Workshop about the future of Open Source Software and 
> Open Source Hardware
>
> Am 2019-10-05 um 17:20 schrieb Christofer Dutz:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Lukasz just posted this on the plc4x slack channel mainly because 
> of Siemens’ attempt to appear open:
> > “There are also B2B Open Source platforms: Siemens’ MindSphere 
> offers a managed open source Platform-as-a-Service for developing 
> cross-platform applications” (Which it clearly is not).
> >
> > But when I read through the Agenda I think it might be a good idea 
> to show up with a little Apache delegation:
> > 
> https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/news/workshop-about-future-open-source-software-and-open-source-hardware
> >
> > Seems to be not a Workshop where you 

Re: OpenStack Upstream Institute

[Roman Shaposhnik]

I've been thinking of this style of even a lot recently.

Basically an ASF bootcamp for students and the like who want to break
into open source but don't quite know how.

Have a day and a place with a lot of existing ASF committers/PMC
around and an objective of having your first real commit accepted into
a real ASF project.

The commit itself could be anything -- the point is to break that ice
and just feel like it is doable.

Thanks,
Roman.

On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 9:51 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:
>
> I just attended a great session about the OpenStack Upstream Institute,
> and I would love to see us do a similar thing. Perhaps starting at
> ApacheCon 2020, but possibly as stand-alone roadshow type events. Just
> something to consider, as a way to build skilled contributor communities.
>
> Basic idea: One day (or up to 2, depending) on how to contribute to
> $project. They do intro "how to do open source" content, and then drill
> down to project-specific content later in the day.
>
> By the end of the day, students will have pushed one patch, with good
> commit message, to some project. But much of the content is more about
> culture than specific project or technical details.
>
> Perhaps this is something that the Training PMC should be doing instead
> - but I think all of those people are here, too.
>
> I've pasted my full notes from the meeting below, for those that want
> more context.
>
> Resources:
>
> Upstream institute wiki page:
> https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/OpenStack_Upstream_Institute
>
> Upstream training guide:  https://docs.openstack.org/upstream-training/
>
> OpenStack Contributor guide: https://docs.openstack.org/contributors/
>
> OpenStack community page:  https://www.openstack.org/community/
>
> Full Notes:
>
> Ildiko and Kendall presented today about the OpenStack Upstream Institute.
>
> OUI is an in-person training about how to contribute to OpenStack, as
> well as being general open source advocates. Open design, development,
> community, and source.
>
> First training was 5 years ago before OpenStack Summit.
>
> Training is to help newcomers get over the hurdles of contributions.
> Training has evolved over the years based on lessons learned.
>
> Training is 1 or 1.5 days long. Lots of Q and exercises.
>
> Covers governance, release cycle, how teams are structures, how doc/code
> development is going. Account setup is part of the day. Walk them
> through sending their first patch and navigating the review process. How
> to revise changes. Git basics. How you communicate with the community.
> How to test your changes. Running and configuring devstack.
>
> Training is very interactive, to keep people engaged. Lots of exercises
> to ensure that the attendees grasped the material and can act on it.
>
> Have project mentors attend, so that they can recommend “low hanging”
> issues that the trainees can address.
>
> This is *not* training about how to use/administer OpenStack itself.
>
> No criteria for people to join the training. All levels of experience
> are represented, and the day has to be crafted around that, so sometimes
> it takes all available time, and sometimes it’s done much faster.
>
> There is a lot of culture that is passed along to the participants,
> which includes open source norms. These are also informed by the 4 Opens.
>
> People involved in the training include board members, PTLs (project
> technical leads), mentors, current developers. Representation from all
> of the various major sections of the community. Largely a community
> effort, rather than just pushed by the Foundation.
>
> All of the slides/text are translated into multiple languages so that
> they can be presented to local audiences more effectively.
>
> Many of the projects host project-specific onboarding. Culture, system
> setup, other technical details.
>
> There is also a mentoring program which attendees can participate in if
> they need more help.
>
> Training is the day before OpenStack Summit/Open Infrastructure Summit.
> Also at regional OpenStack Days, Open Infra Days, which are smaller
> events all around the world.
>
> Encourage people to keep in touch with one another after the training.
> This is especially useful with regional trainings, so that people are in
> the same region/timezone, and have a local project community.
>
> When space/time isn’t available at an event, run office hours where
> people can drop by and ask questions, get help.
>
> Local events, a couple dozen attendees. At major international events,
> more like 60 - 80 attendees.
>
> Resources listed in the etherpad:
>
> Upstream institute wiki page:
> https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/OpenStack_Upstream_Institute
> Upstream training guide:  https://docs.openstack.org/upstream-training/
> OpenStack Contributor guide: https://docs.openstack.org/contributors/
> OpenStack community page:  https://www.openstack.org/community/
> May be other things :)
>
> Started with lecture format, and evolved into the current, more-hands on

Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 4:05 PM Jim Jagielski  wrote:
> > On Jul 16, 2019, at 5:21 PM, Roman Shaposhnik  wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 10:52 AM Jim Jagielski  wrote:
> >>
> >> I think that the events of the last several months have clearly shown a 
> >> lack of awareness, knowledge and (and some level) appreciation (adherence) 
> >> to The Apache Way. It would be useful, I think, if this was a focused 
> >> effort w/i the foundation.
> >>
> >> Of course, there is a lot of overlap between ComDev and this effort, and 
> >> so the questions are how best to address this. Maybe some sort of sub-cmmt 
> >> under ComDev? Or spinning this out ala D (but as a PMC to avoid the 
> >> problems that cmmt encountered and to engender trust and collaboration)? 
> >> Or basically focus on it w/i ComDev with the structure "as is"... I think 
> >> having one person "tasked" with herding the cats and coordinating the 
> >> effort would be useful (and I volunteer to do so), no matter what 
> >> structure we decide.
> >>
> >> Thoughts? Ideas?
> >
> > As always with Apache Way (hint-hint ;-)) the trick is to JFDI. So if
> > you're passionate about it (the way Gris is passionate about D) why
> > don't you just start leading this effort in ComDev? Is there anything
> > that's blocking you at this point, Jim?
> >
>
> Because I prefer coordinating w/ people rather than running off half-cocked. 
> It's basic common courtesy. It how collaboration works.

Whatever happened to *rough* consensus and working code^H^H^H^Hcontent ?

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 10:52 AM Jim Jagielski  wrote:
>
> I think that the events of the last several months have clearly shown a lack 
> of awareness, knowledge and (and some level) appreciation (adherence) to The 
> Apache Way. It would be useful, I think, if this was a focused effort w/i the 
> foundation.
>
> Of course, there is a lot of overlap between ComDev and this effort, and so 
> the questions are how best to address this. Maybe some sort of sub-cmmt under 
> ComDev? Or spinning this out ala D (but as a PMC to avoid the problems that 
> cmmt encountered and to engender trust and collaboration)? Or basically focus 
> on it w/i ComDev with the structure "as is"... I think having one person 
> "tasked" with herding the cats and coordinating the effort would be useful 
> (and I volunteer to do so), no matter what structure we decide.
>
> Thoughts? Ideas?

As always with Apache Way (hint-hint ;-)) the trick is to JFDI. So if
you're passionate about it (the way Gris is passionate about D) why
don't you just start leading this effort in ComDev? Is there anything
that's blocking you at this point, Jim?

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: [ANNOUNCE] Welcome Gris Cuevas as new PMC member

[Roman Shaposhnik]

Congrats

On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 11:26 AM Sharan Foga  wrote:
>
> Congratulations and welcome Gris!
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
> On 2019/04/23 11:26:51, Myrle Krantz  wrote:
> > Hey all,
> >
> > Please welcome Gris Cuevas as the newest member of the Community
> > Development PMC.
> >
> > Gris is helping out representing Apache at various conferences and helping
> > to make our own conferences a success.  Gris has also offered to help us
> > with Diversity & Inclusion work and has already made several constructive,
> > concrete proposals.  She's helping us find the way forward through a
> > particularly messy and difficult topic.
> >
> > Thank you Gris, for accepting our invitation to continue your awesome work
> > together with us!  I look forward to continuing to work together with you!
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Myrle Krantz
> > PMC Member, Apache Community Development
> >
>
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] Welcome Gris Cuevas as new PMC member

[Roman Shaposhnik]

Congrats Gris! And welcome!!!

Thanks,
Roman.

On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 4:27 AM Myrle Krantz  wrote:
>
> Hey all,
>
> Please welcome Gris Cuevas as the newest member of the Community
> Development PMC.
>
> Gris is helping out representing Apache at various conferences and helping
> to make our own conferences a success.  Gris has also offered to help us
> with Diversity & Inclusion work and has already made several constructive,
> concrete proposals.  She's helping us find the way forward through a
> particularly messy and difficult topic.
>
> Thank you Gris, for accepting our invitation to continue your awesome work
> together with us!  I look forward to continuing to work together with you!
>
> Best Regards,
> Myrle Krantz
> PMC Member, Apache Community Development

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Re: Apache Brochure/Tri-Fold?

[Roman Shaposhnik]

I can help getting the fixes committed -- replied on the JIRA and
assigned to myself to help  Dmitriy get his fixes in

On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 10:47 AM Dmitriy Pavlov  wrote:
>
> Thanks for this idea, for me it will be also easier to keep track.
>
> Issue: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COMDEV-315
>
> Could you please assign me to contributor role, so I can assign this issue
> to me?
>
> пт, 22 мар. 2019 г. в 20:42, sebb :
>
> > On Fri, 22 Mar 2019 at 15:50, Dmitriy Pavlov  wrote:
> > >
> > > It's a pity. Also, I can prepare .xfc files and send it to a ComDev
> > > committer via email. Who can commit it later?
> >
> > Better to create a JIRA COMDEV issue and attach it there please.
> >
> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COMDEV
> >
> > That would make it easier to keep track of progress, and allow others
> > to help/comment.
> >
> > @comdev: Maybe ask Infra to create a (read-only) GitHub mirror of the
> > SVN repo so non-committers can create PRs etc?
> >
> > > пт, 22 мар. 2019 г. в 18:34, Rich Bowen :
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 3/22/19 11:24 AM, Dmitriy Pavlov wrote:
> > > > > Hi Roman,
> > > > >
> > > > > I've tried to update it using GIMP, and it seems I can fix it. It
> > refers
> > > > to
> > > > > "Standard" font. If I set Arial it looks ok.
> > > > >
> > > > > Can I commit changes later using general Apache Committer
> > credentials or
> > > > > should I be committer in the ComDev?
> > > >
> > > > One must be a ComDev committer to commit there.
> > > >
> > > > > пт, 22 мар. 2019 г. в 05:21, Roman Shaposhnik  > >:
> > > > >
> > > > >> On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 6:23 PM Shane Curcuru  > >
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Kevin A. McGrail wrote on 3/21/19 8:57 PM:
> > > > >>>> Anyone know where the source for this is at so I can print some
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > >>>> roadshow?
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Last updated 2017, but it is a trifold brochure layout:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>   https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/comdev/marketing/brochure/
> > > > >>
> > > > >> As a side note, the Russian translation has a very messed up font
> > > > kerning.
> > > > >> Would be great to fix it.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Thanks,
> > > > >> Roman.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > -
> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com
> > > > http://rcbowen.com/
> > > > @rbowen
> > > >
> > > > -
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> >
> >

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[jira] [Commented] (COMDEV-315) Fix Russian translation for Apache Brochure

[Roman Shaposhnik (JIRA)]

[ 
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COMDEV-315?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel=16799511#comment-16799511
 ] 

Roman Shaposhnik commented on COMDEV-315:
-

Hey [~dpavlov] if you could attach fixed xcf and pdf files to this JIRA I can 
commit those

> Fix Russian translation for Apache Brochure
> ---
>
> Key: COMDEV-315
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COMDEV-315
> Project: Community Development
>  Issue Type: Bug
>Reporter: Dmitriy Pavlov
>    Assignee: Roman Shaposhnik
>Priority: Major
>
> The Russian translation has a very messed up font kerning.
> Related discussion:
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/c926035ccb50282b9769770c8276c8c1f172ee6c68b32b37d6381cf7@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E



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[jira] [Assigned] (COMDEV-315) Fix Russian translation for Apache Brochure

[Roman Shaposhnik (JIRA)]

 [ 
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COMDEV-315?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:all-tabpanel
 ]

Roman Shaposhnik reassigned COMDEV-315:
---

Assignee: Roman Shaposhnik

> Fix Russian translation for Apache Brochure
> ---
>
> Key: COMDEV-315
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COMDEV-315
> Project: Community Development
>  Issue Type: Bug
>Reporter: Dmitriy Pavlov
>    Assignee: Roman Shaposhnik
>Priority: Major
>
> The Russian translation has a very messed up font kerning.
> Related discussion:
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/c926035ccb50282b9769770c8276c8c1f172ee6c68b32b37d6381cf7@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E



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Re: on "meritocracy"

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 4:25 PM Naomi Slater  wrote:
>
> I suspect the answer is not to replace the word but to do away with it
> entirely

I still would like to have a succinct handle to reference the ethos of ASF.

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: on "meritocracy"

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 9:59 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:
> On 3/22/19 3:03 AM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
> > It would be very important to come up with a replacement that is
> > as effective as what we're trying to replace. Frankly, I don't know
> > a single candidate.
>
> As discussed elsewhere in the thread, simply coming up with a new word,
> while potentially helpful in starting conversations, doesn't really
> address the underlying problem. And each new word (do-ocracy is one that
> has been proposed, for example) comes with its own set of concerns and
> baggage.

FWIW: the only word I can 100% embrace as a wholesale replacement
of meritocracy is do-ocracy.

> We have had the "what other word can we use" conversation at least once
> on this mailing list, and at least one on members, in the last 2 years.
> Neither conversation resulted in anything actionable.

That's basically my point.

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: on "meritocracy"

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 10:53 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:
> On 3/21/19 1:15 PM, Naomi Slater wrote:
> >
> > I feel like this is a good opportunity to bring up (as I have brought up
> > before) the fact that "meritocracy" was invented for the purposes of a
> > satirical *dystopian* novel.
>
> Well, maybe. I kind of find that entire line of conversation to be just
> an amusing sidebar, and not really relevant. But, then, this is a
> favorite topic of debate with my linguist brother - the descriptive vs
> prescriptive nature of definitions. :)
>
> Word origins are just that - origins. What matters is the current
> meaning, not where they originated. You can play that kind of game with
> lots of English words, many of which have absurd origin stories.
>
> I have a similar reaction to people who try to justify current
> political policies by referencing the historical origin of their
> opponent's political party.
>
> What's relevant is now.
>
> Many, many words that we rely on daily have contradictory origin
> stories. "Awful" and "Terrible" are instructive examples.
>
> > I *think* that on this particular mailing list, you're preaching to the
> > choir. And that choir is notably much more diverse than the ASF at
> > large. The challenge is spreading this story to the larger congregation.
> > Particularly when certain vocal members of that congregation speak very
> > loudly against those efforts as being wasteful of time and volunteer
> > effort.
> >
> >
> > but in your first email, re people getting offended, you said:
> >
> > "I understand that these people exist, but citing them as representative
> > seems weird."
>
> Specifically, there, I'm talking about Stuart Varney, who is a nasty,
> horrible person, and isn't representative of anyone here at the
> Foundation, even the most horrible nasty person here.
>
> Crafting our message for the small number of horrible people seems less
> effective than crafting it for the large number of
> well-intentioned-but-passive people, well-intentioned-but-unaware
> people, and well-intentioned-but-unaffected-due-to-their-privilege people.
>
> I firmly believe that most of the people here at the Foundation
> genuinely want to do the right thing. That we haven't done the right
> thing is not, for the most part, due to a malicious intention to do the
> wrong thing. I try, really hard, to assume good intent when crafting
> messages. If we assume everyone is Stuart Varney, we'll end up with
> messaging that will offend everyone and inform nobody.
>
> > my experience attempting to bring this sort of thing "to the
> > congregation" (i.e., members@) in the past is *the primary reason* I
> > burnt out and took hiatus for as long as I did. it was extremely
> > exhausting. being challenged by multiple people on every little point.
> > being drawn into long, circular, unproductive, and hostile arguments.
> > having to manage other people's emotions/outrage/flames
> >
> > traumatizing too, to be honest
> >
> > it is ironic (and bitterly unfair) that this sort of work often has to
> > be done by the people who have a material stake in what is being
> > dismissed and who are already exhausted/traumatized from all the times
> > they've had these sorts of conflicts before
>
> Yes, agreed. Also ironic is how some of us who desperately want to help
> are often unable to do so, because, as a white, middle aged, bearded,
> financially successful man, I'm a large part of the problem, and so my
> voice doesn't carry nearly the weight of yours.
>
> > I don't know what to do, to be honest. I don't have the emotional or
> > psychological health required to butt heads on members@ anymore
>
> I am willing to take on that fight, whenever and however I can. I often
> feel that I'm trying to mop up the sea with a paper towel. And these
> discussions in Apache-land are pretty consistently LESS hostile than in
> other communities I'm part of.
>
> > perhaps a good first step would be to update the material the ComDev
> > project is responsible for? phase out the word "meritocracy" (and maybe
> > add a note that acknowledges this change and gives a rationale). reframe
> > our values and approach as per my last email. from there, we could move
> > on to http://theapacheway.com/ (if Shane is up for it) and then the
> > Apache website proper, Incubator, etc. let it percolate through
>
> +1 to phasing out the word. -0 to providing a rationale for doing so, as
> it would seem to be a distraction, and picking a fight. Rather, finding
> the right/best phrasing, and moving to it, without necessarily drawing
> attention to the change, seems like a way to avoid pointless pushback
> from our Usual Suspects that tend to poop on any attempt to balance our
> community diversity.
>
> FWIW:
>
> [rbowen@sasha:comdev/site]$ grep -ri meritocracy | wc -l
> 4
>
> So, that one's easy ...
>
>
> [rbowen@sasha:apache/www-site]$ grep -ri meritocracy ./ | wc -l
> 150
>
> Somewhat more challenging, and would 

Re: Apache Brochure/Tri-Fold?

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 6:23 PM Shane Curcuru  wrote:
>
> Kevin A. McGrail wrote on 3/21/19 8:57 PM:
> > Anyone know where the source for this is at so I can print some for the
> > roadshow?
>
> Last updated 2017, but it is a trifold brochure layout:
>
>   https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/comdev/marketing/brochure/

As a side note, the Russian translation has a very messed up font kerning.
Would be great to fix it.

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: Proposed process for recognizing *Non-Technical* Contributions

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 9:03 AM Sharan Foga  wrote:

> Hi Roman
>
> My understanding (and interpretation :-)  is that it would be good for
> comdev to develop and own this and so we can help provide support to any
> projects wanting to implement it.
>
> Having common guidelines will help make sure that we can capture any
> knowledge that can help. And having mentors that can help projects
> interpret and implement the guidelines would  also be valuable.
>

Awesome! That makes perfect sense -- just wanted to make sure.

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: Proposed process for recognizing *Non-Technical* Contributions

[Roman Shaposhnik]

Sorry for coming to this thread rather late.

First of all -- terrific idea and a very thorough write up.

One thing I sort of missed though, is whether this is being proposed a
formal policy of some kind? Or just a compilation of good practiced that
all PMCs can follow?

Thanks,
Roman.

On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 12:53 AM Sally Khudairi  wrote:

> Hello ComDev-ers! I hope you are all well and that your 2019 is looking
> bright thus far.
>
> I wanted to share my proposal for recognizing non-technical contributions
> at the ASF. Whilst some of us have spoken about this issue for many years,
> this discussion formalized during ApacheCon Montreal (September 2018;
> select excerpts at the end of this message) and moved onto the ASF Members
> list for review and vetting.
>
> We have received both signoff from VP ComDev Sharan Foga, as well as
> careful consideration and positive feedback from more than a dozen Members.
>
> Let's proceed!
>
> Proposed Contribution Process for Non-Technical tasks:
>
> 1) Contributions must be associated with an existing ASF project or
> committee. For example:
>
>   - Creating supporting graphics for ASF Marketing & Publicity
>
>   - Providing marketing support for an Apache TLP
>
>   - Onboarding new contributors to an Apache podling community
>
>   - Developing a new Website for an existing project
>
>   - Participating in Apache Community Development activities --staffing
> the ASF booth, coordinating events, etc.
>
>   - Writing project/process documentation
>
>   - Helping with ASF Operations activities --legal/accounting support, etc.
>
> ...there are more ways folks can contribute. We just need to give them the
> ability to do so.
>
> 2) The TLP/podling/committee involved must have at least one community
> member (internal; e.g. PMC) to help provide guidance on the task/activity
> involved, and at least three PMC Members who may be able to nominate the
> individual for Committership, as per the ASF's established contributor >
> committer process http://community.apache.org/contributors/index.html .
>
> 3) All project/committee participants are encouraged to sign an ASF ICLA
> in order to have their contributions recognized.
>
> 4) Recognition must happen on-list.
>
> 5) All PMCs and podlings are encouraged to consider non-code contributions
> and establish their own sub-processes for determining how to accept,
> integrate, and recognize non-technical participation.
>
> 6) Recommend that a team of advisors for this process operate under
> ComDev, and for any serious issues to be escalated to the ASF President and
> the individuals identified in the ASF Code of Conduct who act as
> ombudspeople for conflict resolution.
>
> 7) Recommend that all non-ASF-Member-confidential tasks/Requests for
> Assistance be posted publicly on https://helpwanted.apache.org/ ...the
> form makes it easy to do so! The related details on the tasks themselves
> may be published on a project's JIRA, blog post, mailing list, Webpage,
> community forum, Slack channel, etc.
>
> 8) Projects/committees are encouraged to share their initiatives with ASF
> Marketing & Publicity  for additional visibility across
> ASF communication channels.
>
> ...as we build the program, I'm sure we'll be able to flesh out more
> details and areas of activity.
>
> And to kick it off, ASF Marketing & Publicity have some graphics/creative
> tasks that we will be leading as part of a "Central Services sub-group"
> under our committee. We will be posting details on blogs.apache.org and
> promoted to the greater community. Those who are creatively inclined and
> are able to help are welcome to join us.
>
> I hope the proposed process will help encourage broader participation. In
> my review with Sharan, she wrote:
>
> > ... this is just the sort of thing I think Comdev could be doing. It is
> also something that could focus us a bit better.
> >
> > So +1 from me.
>
>
> Thank you in advance for taking this under the ComDev umbrella and helping
> pave the way for a more inclusive, robust community. Once you're ready to
> proceed, I'll be happy to forward/socialize the process to the PMCs if
> needed.
>
> Feel free to let me know if you have any questions or how I can otherwise
> be of help.
>
> Thanks,
> Sally (ASF's first non-technical member!)
>
> - - -
> Vice President Marketing & Publicity
> Vice President Sponsor Relations
> The Apache Software Foundation
>
> Tel +1 617 921 8656 | s...@apache.org
>
> = = =
>
> [BACKGROUND/CONTEXT; excepted from my emails to ASF Members]
>
> 
>
> During ApacheCon, there were many discussions about two things:
>
> 1)  "diversity". A pattern was clearly emerging:
>a) diversity of humanity --one's DNA/gender/ethnicity/background/life
> choices, etc.
>b) diversity of contribution --promotion, community building,
> onboarding, outreach, etc.
>
> 2) "(more efficient) ways to get non-code stuff done":
>a) semi-one-off instances --graphics/logos, marketing/media assistance,
> etc.
>b) 

Re: [DISCUSSION] ComDev Event Participation for 2019

[Roman Shaposhnik]

Personally, for North America (where I hail from ;-)) I've always
consider the following to be a pretty solid (if not must attend) set
of events:
* SCALE
* LinuxFest NorthWest
* OSCON
* ApacheCON NA
* All Things Open

Thanks,
Roman.

On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 7:16 AM Sharan Foga  wrote:
>
> Hi All
>
> Last year we had an extremely busy year and participated at lots and lots of 
> events. As well as ApacheCon we also held an EU Roadshow and had 
> representation at around 15 other events. While it was good to be busy, last 
> minute planning can cause stress so this year we would like to be a bit more 
> prepared.
>
> Identifying the events that we’d like to participate in now, means that we 
> will have time to plan and prepare for the event in relation to the 
> availability of volunteers as well as stickers and giveways. It also gives us 
> some visibility and control of how much we might potentially spend as part of 
> our participation.
>
> For 2019 we already are planning a couple of ApacheCons (EU and NA) and also 
> a couple of Roadshows (DC and Chicago) so are definitely going to have some 
> form of participation at those!
>
> Where I’d like to start a discussion is about which events people think that 
> are the most important for us to have a presence at for 2019 so we can add it 
> to our list of events for this year.
>
> In a couple of weeks we are going to be at CHAOSSCon and FOSDEM so 
> technically those two are already on the list.:-)
>
> Which other events do people think should be on our radar and in our planned 
> participation list for 2019?
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
>
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] Welcome Myrle Krantz as a new PMC member

[Roman Shaposhnik]

Myrle, so awesome to have you officially join (I've always thought of
you as already being part of ComDev all along)!

Thanks,
Roman.

On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 1:33 PM Sharan Foga  wrote:
>
> The Community Development PMC has invited Myrle Krantz to become a new member 
> of the PMC and we are happy to announce that she has accepted.
>
> Myrle has always been active, positive and enthusiastic in promoting Apache 
> and as well as helping out at many Apache related events. She is also 
> currently taking a lead role in the organisation of ApacheCon EU 2019 (so 
> watch out for the further information about this important event!)
>
> We are sure that Myrle will be a great addition to the PMC.
>
> Please join me in welcoming Myrle and congratulating her on her new role.
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
>
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Re: Applying for a Siemens MindSphere Academic Membership?

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 12:28 AM Christofer Dutz
 wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> currently the production industry is all about “industry 4.0” and this mainly 
> covers topics like: Cloud, BigData, Machine Learning … while we know that 
> Apache has a lot to offer in that regard.
> Still Siemens is doing a lot in promoting their MindSphere platform and are 
> gaining some traction in the industry.
>
> Especially in the IoT projects of Apache it would be great to be able to talk 
> to that platform the same way we can with Azure, Google, AWS, … unfortunately 
> an insanely expensive membership is needed.
>
> In all of my recent meetings with Siemens, I always underlined that I would 
> love to support MindSphere, but I and I bet most others here at Apache are 
> definitely not going to pay 10k€/year in order to develop software for 
> Siemens in my free time. Now after a lot of constant nagging on different 
> occasions, I was told that even if Apache is not a research or academic 
> institiution, they would be willing to grant the ASF the same status. However 
> someone with the formal capacity to do so would have to fill out the form.
>
> So my question is: Would there be an interest in this? And who should I 
> involve in this?

I'm very interested in this professionally and, as Mark T. pointed
out, I probably will be your first line of "official" at ASF (given my
VP Legal hat).

Please let me know more.

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: Hi

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 6:19 AM Sarkhan Rasullu  wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I am writing for adding Apache License to my project
> https://github.com/sarkhanrasullu/speedup
>
> How can I do that?
> I added LICENSE-2.0.txt and NOTICE file under project's root directory.
>
> How can I get an apache url like speedup.apache.org

Projects that get ASF subdomains are actually governed by the foundation.
You don't get the subdomain by simply applying license to your GitHub
project.

If moving your project under ASF umbrella is something that you may
be interested in -- feel free to email incuba...@apache.org and read up
on:  http://incubator.apache.org/

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: RTFM on Facebook

[Roman Shaposhnik]

We've got a FB page? That's news to me. What's the URL? (I refuse to
have an FB account myself -- hence can't search)
On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 10:31 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:
>
> I'm not sure who is responding to questions on the Facebook page but it is
> very RTFMey lately. Please try to be welcoming and helpful, or leave it for
> someone else to respond. Thanks.

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Re: ApacheCon "ads" on project sites - Help wanted

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 12:08 PM, Rich Bowen <rbo...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 04/17/2018 02:38 PM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
>>
>> Quick question: is there any way to identify top-traffic sites out of
>> that group of 158?
>
>
> Here's the top 20:

Thanks, Rich! Seems like only the following are still not displaying
the banner:

> hadoop.apache.org
> lucene.apache.org
> kafka.apache.org
> hbase.apache.org
> maven.apache.org
> camel.apache.org
> directory.apache.org
> cordova.apache.org
> activemq.apache.org
> logging.apache.org

I can help reaching to the ones I know personally (which, of course,
is no guarantee that they will do it -- but still it helps):

> hadoop.apache.org
> lucene.apache.org
> kafka.apache.org
> hbase.apache.org

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: ApacheCon "ads" on project sites - Help wanted

[Roman Shaposhnik]

Quick question: is there any way to identify top-traffic sites out of
that group of 158?

Thanks,
Roman.

On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 9:59 AM, Rich Bowen  wrote:
> We have been discussing elsewhere the fact that we have a documented process
> for including the current event "ad" on project sites. That doc is here:
> http://apache.org/events/README.txt
>
> We also track what projects are doing this. At the moment, 42 projects are,
> while 158 are not.
>
> Several people have indicated a willingness to help me reach out to those
> 158 and encourage them to help us out, and this requires a little
> coordination, so that we're not irritating projects, or communicating a
> mandate rather than a request, or otherwise miscommunicating.
>
> To that end:
>
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/101O3EVBYv_QhHW74bFLoO89ydaXoUJW4AC97YhnR530/edit#gid=0
>
> The process goes like this.
>
> 1) If you're going to help out, pick a project and put your name beside it.
>
> 2) Go to the project's website, and check. It could be that they are in fact
> promoting the event, but our automated checks aren't catching it.
>
> 3) Contact the project's dev list. This may require that you actually
> subscribe to it, or you can use the http://lists.apache.org/ interface. Ask
> them politely to do step one in the README.txt linked above. If
> appropriate/possible, offer to do it yourself. But understand that people
> have put a lot of work into their websites, so be patient and kind.
>
> 4) Update the spreadsheet with status as appropriate. Link to the mailing
> list thread  with a lists.apache.org URL.
>
> That's all.
>
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IBM's first Index dev conf in San Francisco

[Roman Shaposhnik]

Hi!

I've been invited to attend the first inaugural IBM's developer
conference here in SF: https://developer.ibm.com/indexconf/

I must say I liked it very much and one thing that jumped at
me was how OS community friendly it was. Basically a lot
of talks were on Linux Foundation and ASF projects.

Which brings me to this suggestion: I think it would be a great
place for an "adjacent ASF event" (or at least a much higher
exposure of ASF at Keynotes, etc. the same way LF was given
this type of exposure).

What do you all think? I can probably reach out to Todd Moore
if this suggestion makes sense. That said, if anyone here (like
Sam for example) have a more direct line of sight into IBM's
dev-rel organization -- that may help as well.

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: Documenting project self-assessments for maturity model

[Roman Shaposhnik]

Do you need more examples? E.g.:

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/GEODE/Geode+Podling+Maturity+Assessment
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MADLIB/ASF+Maturity+Evaluation

Thanks,
Roman.

On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 5:31 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
 wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:07 PM, Isabel Drost-Fromm  wrote:
>> ...+1 Hence my suggestion to add a link to the model in the reporter tool so 
>> ppl have
>> a regular reminder (assuming projects are using that)
>
> For now, I have added the links mentioned earlier in this thread to
> the maturity model's "how to use this model" section, at
> https://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model.html
> - I think that's useful examples.
>
> About adding a link to the model to the reporter tool, I'm +1 but not
> sure how/where to make that change.
>
> -Bertrand
>
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Re: Quick Update about FOSDEM 2018

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 2:56 AM, Isabel Drost-Fromm  wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 05, 2018 at 12:20:57PM -, Sharan Foga wrote:
>> Once again a big thank you to everyone who turned up to help out at the booth
>> or to chat to people about the ASF or their project. I like FOSDEM because
>> it's a place where you can finally meet in person the people that you have
>> been chatting with on the mailing lists. So a great place to connect.
>
> +1
>
> Sharan and everyone who organised having a booth there: Thank you! Also thanks
> to everyone who helped run the booth, gave talks about Apache projects at
> FOSDEM.

Huge +1 to the above! My only suggestion would be to perhaps plan for having
a directory of all the ASF project talks at FOSDEM -- perhaps
something the community
can do next time and folks at the boot can just display it there.

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: Apache Booth at FOSDEM

[Roman Shaposhnik]

I would love to help. Do we have our usual wiki page for coordinating
volunteers?

Thanks,
Roman.

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 12:39 AM, Sharan Foga  wrote:
> Hi All
>
> The list of booths has also been published and it it great to see that we 
> have yet again been allocated one. We will be looking for volunteers to help 
> out on the booth so if you are planning to come along then please consider 
> giving an hour of your time to help out.
>
> The greater project coverage the better as we often have people wanting to 
> talk about specific projects.
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
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Re: ComDev mission

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 4:06 AM, Shane Curcuru  wrote:
> Rich Bowen wrote on 11/1/17 3:05 PM:
>> On 10/27/2017 08:43 AM, Shane Curcuru wrote:
 We are, of course, primarily focused on Apache Software Foundation
 projects. However, because we believe that the Apache Way is, in
 fact, the
 best way to manage a software project, we strive also to make these
>>> s/the best way/one of the best ways/
>>>
>>> We have a great method, but it's not the best of all possible ways for
>>> all communities.  I think making the mission a superlative will bring
>>> more flak than it brings value.
>>>
>>
>> I believe it's the best way, but, ok.
>
> I believe it's the best way for most people too.  But not all.  And
> there are several other models out there that work quite well and have
> passionate evangelists for their models as well.
>
> My point is that the ASF at it's roots is here to serve the communities
> that choose to join us.  We definitely can do better with a more
> coherent and polished message, and about being organized at spreading
> our message - which ComDev is quite nicely doing these days!  In
> particular, your proposal to better show how our model is practiced is
> super important.
>
> But we're not an advocacy group, and our culture is not one to
> proselytize.  I dunno, maybe I'm over-sensitive to the inevitable
> pushback from some of the other communities out there with their own
> organized stories to tell.

I think there's a difference between trying to convert and trying to share
best practices. I read Rich's email as trying to achieve the later. But I agree
we really should avoid any kind of exclusionary tone. Nobody and not a single
organization has a monopoly on the definition of doing Open Source right.

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: ComDev mission

[Roman Shaposhnik]

+1. I like this quite a bit!

Thanks,
Roman.

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 1:43 AM, Rich Bowen  wrote:
> Months ago, we discussed a refocusing of the ComDev mission, which we've
> made some progress on here: http://community.apache.org/about/
>
> I had an inspiration this morning, and wrote the following, which I would
> like to propose as our new mission statement, to be included on the website
> and in our board reports:
>
> -
> The Community Development project creates and provides tools, processes,
> and advice, to help open source software projects improve their own
> community health.
>
> We are, of course, primarily focused on Apache Software Foundation
> projects. However, because we believe that the Apache Way is, in fact, the
> best way to manage a software project, we strive also to make these
> artifacts releasable to the open source community as a whole.
> -
>
> I feel like this provides a clear path for our activities, as well as a
> goal of  being a beacon for the entire open source world, with our
> experience and philosophy.
>
> In the spirit of lazy consensus, I'm going to make that paragraph edit on
> our website unless there are objections. (This won't happen for several
> days, since I'm traveling, so there's time for folks to speak up.)
>
> --Rich

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Fwd: Seeking Mentors for Google Code-In 2017

[Roman Shaposhnik]

FYI. Not sure if this is something we participate as much as GSoC but I
think it would
be useful for some projects to get into this program.

Thanks,
Roman.

-- Forwarded message --
From: Ed Cable 
Date: Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 1:05 AM
Subject: Seeking Mentors for Google Code-In 2017
To: Dev , Mifos software development <
mifos-develo...@lists.sourceforge.net>, mifos-users <
mifos-us...@lists.sourceforge.net>, u...@fineract.apache.org


Hello Mifos and Apache Fineract communities,

Google just announced it's Google Code-In program will be occurring once
again for the 8th consecutive year. The Mifos Initiative will likely once
again apply to participate in Google Code-In in 2017.

This is Google's program to help introduce pre-university students to open
source where students compete to complete as many bite-sized tasks (3 to 5
hours) as possible across the following buckets: Code,
Documentation/Training, Outreach/Research, Quality Assurance, or User
Interface.

We participated last year and it was an honor to work with talented high
school students and a great way to get many of our newest community members
mobilized as mentors.

Please read our wrap-up post - http://mifos.org/blog/2016-
google-code-in-wrap-up/ - and Rajan's post about his trip to the GCI event -
http://mifos.org/blog/2017-gci-grand-prize-trip/- on our blog.

Before we submit our application, I wanted to begin capturing who would
like to serve as a mentor. For all of our recent GSOC interns, this is a
great way to begin deepening your role in the community.

This call for mentoring is open to to everyone - you don't have to be a
developer as we need mentors for students working on all the domains.

If you're interested in mentoring, please fill out the form at
https://goo.gl/forms/CI8xbg04hgkLMpmL2 or respond to this mailing list
thread.

A critical part of a successful GCI is a wealth of small tasks - we'll soon
begin generating our list so put on your thinking cap of work you'd like to
see done.

More on the 2017 GCI program can be found below.

Cheers,

Ed

-- Forwarded message --
From: 'Stephanie Taylor' via Google Code-in Mentors <
gci-ment...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 9:49 AM
Subject: [GCI-mentors] Google Code-in 2017 is on!
To: Google Code-in Mentors 


Hello,

We are pleased to announce Google Code-in 2017 , the 8th
straight year of the program for pre-university students ages 13-17.

The GCI timeline, FAQs, Rules and flyers have been updated on the contest
site .

Organizations -- If you would like to apply for the 2017 program please
start thinking about the tasks you would like students to work on and also
reach out to your community members to ask if they would like to be mentors
for the program. Applications open for GCI orgs very soon - on October 9th,
and close 2 weeks later on October 24th. We will announce organizations on
Thursday, October 26th giving orgs over a month to create their tasks
before the contest begins on November 28th.

We are looking to continue the growth of this program and reach a record
number of teenagers this year! Read more on today’s blog post

.

If you have any questions about Google Code-in please contact us at
gci-supp...@google.com

Best,

Stephanie

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-- 
*Ed Cable*
President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
edca...@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
<(484)%20477-8649>

*Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
  

Re: Signing contracts?

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Ted Dunning  wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 3:34 PM, sebb  wrote:
>
>> ...
>> > Let me just point out that the reason that you are a VP is *exactly* to
>> be
>> > signing for the ASF.
>> >
>> > Every time you as a PMC chair sign off on a release, you are signing for
>> > the entire ASF.
>> >
>> > It is a *big* deal.
>>
>> Huh?
>>
>> I thought the PMC was collectively responsible for voting on a release.
>> As I understood it, the chair has a simple binding vote like all the
>> rest of the PMC.
>>
>> I have never known a chair to perform a special sign-off on a release.
>>
>
> I don't think that a special sign-off is required, but the authority of the
> chair is required.

FWIW: this contradicts my understanding of the "Apache Way" governance
model as well. The only way I can interpret it is that from a ASF corporate
perspective a chair may have additional liabilities being a recognized
officer of the corporation. Is this what you have in mind?

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: Keynote suggestions for ApacheCon

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 10:30 AM, Rich Bowen <rbo...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
> A number of our proposed keynotes for ApacheCon have fallen through. I
> wonder if anyone here has a suggestion for a speaker - preferably
> someone that you actually have contact information for - who would be an
> inspiring, entertaining spokesperson for something relevant to the
> Apache community.

One option that David (with his LF hat on) and I are working on is promoting
this 
https://apachecon2017.sched.com/event/9zp9/panel-discussion-how-to-succeed-in-iot-20-abhi-arunachalam-battery-ventures-sudip-chakrabarti-lightspeed-venture-partners-james-pace-runtime-roman-shaposhnik-pivotal
to the keynote slot.

Honestly, given the caliber of speakers and especially if we can also
have Zaheda Bhorat join us -- it would be a shame to constrain this
to a regular slot.

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: Profile photos and ASF values

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 11:39 PM, ARIJIT DAS  wrote:
> that's right ...can anyone please tell me how to get @apache.org domain
> email id? I also want to use apache email id for all activities related to
> apache...I have @acm.org email id but it is only forwarding address can not
> write and send mail from acm email.

The easiest way is to become a committer for one of the ASF projects.

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: Profile photos and ASF values

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Ted Dunning  wrote:
> It's not in red and black and the poster has a name which makes the
> Hindu/Jain/Buddhist sense more likely.
>
> I sent a private note with a question asking if they know the unfortunate
> associations that their readers are likely to have. I think that just
> talking quietly about these issues is the best choice (usually).

Thanks Ted! I think this is exactly the best course of action here and
gets my +1.

In fact, I'd say this is the best course of action even in general:
compassionate
outreach in private as at least the first step. Hey -- if you're
polite you may even
learn something like what Ajay is saying down the thread.

Thanks,
Roman.

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Fwd: IoT at the ASF -- ApacheCon and Project DOAPs [was: Does your project play in the IoT space?]

[Roman Shaposhnik]

Apologies if you're receiving this twice. However, I wanted to give
ComDev a headsup
that I'll be helping put together an Apache IoT track at ApacheCON in Miami. The
whole premise of the track will be "Not your gramps IoT" which means that unlike
IoT events that grew out of the embedded industry we're talking a very holistic,
system view on IoT. Our hope is that Apache IoT will be a meeting place for next
generation IoT 2.0 built by developer, for developers under the Apache Way
governance model.

ASF's breadth starts making a lot of sense when you consider what kind
of technology
is needed to build an end-to-end user experience in IoT 2.0: you start
at the edge,
you consider the gateways, go to a data center and end up on a client
mobile device.
All technology providers are now realizing that the key to success is
allowing developers
unprecedented ease of management and deployment of their business
logic all throughout
these layers. Just look at what Amazon is doing with Lambda on the
edge (Amazon's
Greengrass)!

The good news is that at ASF we've got all the building blocks
available to us in various
communities. So regardless of whether you're an Apache Mynewt
(incubating) developer
working on the far fringes of the edge, or you are a Apache Brooklyn
developer automating
microservices provisioning or you're plumbing data streams with Kafka,
NiFi or Geode or you're
analyzing that data with Hadoop or you're a Tomcat or httpd guru
facilitating the end-user
experience -- we all have pieces to contribute to the IoT 2.0 puzzle.

Please forward this message to the communities you know and let them
know to contact
me directly if they are interested in helping to organize our first
ever Apache IoT mini-conference.

And of course -- make sure to submit talks!

Thanks,
Roman.


-- Forwarded message --
From: Sally Khudairi <s...@apache.org>
Date: Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 6:10 PM
Subject: IoT at the ASF -- ApacheCon and Project DOAPs [was: Does your
project play in the IoT space?]
To: ASF Marketing & Publicity <pr...@apache.org>


Hello ASF Members and PMCs (in blindcopy) --I hope you are all well.

Some of you may remember my email below from last year asking about
IoT. Thank you to everyone who responded.

The ASF's involvement in this space is growing, with new IoT projects
coming into the Apache Incubator building upon our foundation of more
than a dozen Apache projects (see list below: do let me know if your
project is missing). Also please see the corresponding NOTE re: DOAPs.

Earlier today, Rich Bowen (ASF VP Conferences) sent a note to ASF
Members about ApacheCon's evolution towards subject-related focus and
standalone tracks (e.g. "Apache Big Data" vs. "The Hadoop Track" ).
Also today I published the new positioning for ApacheCon
https://s.apache.org/F7Hy

In response to Rich's email, Roman Shaposhnik suggested we hold an IoT
track, referencing innovations such as Apache Mynewt (incubating).
Several Members have stepped up to offer help with planning. We are
very excited about the enthusiastic response!

Rich and I also spoke with one of the heads of IoTFuse, a 501(c)(3)
organization that connects developers with the C-suite on all things
IoT. They are the largest group of its kind in the US, and are holding
their third annual conference in April --they're anticipating 1,000
attendees (up from 200 the first year).

ApacheCon and IoTFuse will be cross-promoting events as Community
Partners. IoTFuse will take place 21 April at the Minneapolis
Convention Center; their CFP closes on 3 February. We suggest
submitting talks to both IoTFuse and ApacheCon (CFP closes 11
February).

They are also offering us the opportunity to have a booth to have an
in-person presence at the event as well. Gold Star to Apache Mynewt's
James Pace for liaising the introduction to IoTFuse!

Here's the checklist of how you can help:

 - ASAP: Can you participate in the ApacheCon IoT track? (Activities
include submitting presentations, helping planning, securing sponsors,
being an event "ambassador"/spokesperson, etc. --whatever you can do
is helpful). If so, please contact Roman <r...@apache.org>

 - ASAP: Can you represent the ASF at the IoTFuse booth? If so, please
contact Sally <s...@apache.org>

 - 3 Feb: Submit a presentation proposal for IoTFuse
https://iotfuse.com/call-for-proposals-2017-iotfuse-conference/

 - 11 Feb: Submit a presentation proposal for ApacheCon
http://events.linuxfoundation.org/events/apachecon-north-america/program/cfp

 - 21 Apr: Host the Apache booth at IoTFuse (single day) + attend the
event in MSP

 - 15-18 May: Join us at ApacheCon in MIA!


For those projects _not_ in the IoT space but want to hold such a
track at a future ApacheCon, please contact Rich and the ApacheCon
planning team <apachecon-disc...@apache.org>

Thanks in advance for your consideration and help. We look forward to
hearing from you!

Warm regards,

Re: contributions and their lifecycle

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 at 2:27 PM, A. Soroka  wrote:
> Just a quick question for anyone who wants to answer or has any advice:
>
> Other than the obvious Apache-wide conditions (proper measures for 
> intellectual property, etc.), does anyone have examples of policies for 
> accepting and maintaining (code) contributions to a project? I am thinking 
> here about the kinds of conditions that must obtain for a piece of code to 
> remain viable.
>
> For example, in a (non-Apache) project with which I am involved, any 
> contribution must have at least two committers ready to take responsibility 
> for it. If at any time after contribution of a module, that stops being the 
> case, that module starts moving on a road to being deprecated out of the 
> mainline codebase into ancillary curation (a process that can stop and 
> reverse at any time if more committers are willing to join in).
>
> So I'm looking for examples of similar conditions to meet for contributions 
> to be accepted, simple rules to measure commitment and community, and on the 
> other end of the lifecycle, examples of conditions that decide when a piece 
> of a project has lost vitality and should be excised from the 
> responsibilities that all committers share.
>
> Thanks for any examples, pointers, experiences, thoughts to ponder!

As Shane pointed out you need to separate foundation-level governance policies
(which are really more about how the community governs itself and its IP) from
the project governance polices (which are left to the PMC).

Shane gave a great answer on the foundation side. On the project's side the two
acronyms that get talked about all the time are RTC and CTR. RTC stands for
Review Then Commit and CTR stands for Commit Then Review. As you can
guess former requires a certain # of positive votes from reviewers
while the later
leaves feedback gathering exersize unspecified and relies on committers seeking
such feedback when they see it is required and simply committing when they
are confident in their changes. Both of these greatly benefit from a robust CI
pipeline, but CTR is pretty much predicated on good CI.

These are the two most popular choices. Then there's also sorts of CI mechanics
that can be thrown in (Gerrit, etc.).

Finally, even though I haven't seen it at ASF myself, I've worked in a
project where
you couldn't commit your own code (well you could technically -- but that would
be a faux pas). Somebody else had to do it for you -- thus taking the
responsibility
for it. This was a more interesting example of creating a social
dynamic around the
project that made a shared responsibility for the code base much more
visceral than
I've seen otherwise. It also, effectively, made a notion of a
"committer" pretty moot.
As a side note, I'll add that this practice also lends itself pretty
nicely to a sort of a
remote pair programming model -- where the other guy committing the
code will also
have to think about testing.

As you can see, you can get a to a pretty sophisticated (convoluted?)
set of policies pretty
quickly. So IMHO it is always a good idea to start with something
super simple (like
CTR or RTC) and then evolve from there.

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: Apache NetBeans Day France 2017

[Roman Shaposhnik]

Great effort! One quick point is that Apache NetBeans is still an
incubating project which
needs to be reflected in the event materials.

Best of luck with the event though -- a great way to grow a community!

Thanks,
Roman.

On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 2:48 AM, ehsavoie  wrote:
> Hi,
> I'm trying to set up Apache NetBeans Day France the 7th of February in
> Grenoble (France of course ;) ) https://yurplan.com/event/
> Apache-Net-Beans-Day-France/13230
> This is a traditional NetBeans community event which is free and with
> students.
> PMC and brand have approved of the event :)
> Cheers,
> Emmanuel
> --
> Emmanuel Hugonnet
> http://www.ehsavoie.com
> http://twitter.com/ehsavoie

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Fwd: HackIllinois 2017

[Roman Shaposhnik]

FYI

Thanks,
Roman.


-- Forwarded message --
From: Nikitha Gajula 
Date: Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 10:59 AM
Subject: HackIllinois 2017 + Pivotal
To: r...@apache.org
Cc: Open Source , rshaposh...@pivotal.io


Hi Roman,

My name is Nikitha and I am part of the staff here at HackIllinois. I hope
you're doing well! HackIllinois has had some exciting changes following
last year's event and I wanted to get you involved.

HackIllinois 2017 returns *February 24th-26th, 2017*, and will be a fully
Open Source event. The event will now comprise of two tracks: a
*Contribute* track
based on Opensource@HackIllinois where students get to work with mentors
such as you on established projects, and a *Create* track focused on
beginning new Open Source projects. A brief overview of this initiative can
be found at go.hackillinois.org/os-hackathon.

We would love to have you as well as other members of Pivotal and the
Apache Software Foundation at the event. A full overview of this year's
mentor program can be found at hackillinois.org/opensource. I would love to
discuss this further over a phone call, is there a time that is most
convenient for you?

We hope to work with you and Pivotal this year!

Sincerely,
Nikitha Gajula
Outreach Director
HackIllinois 2017

Re: Community Evening Event at FOSDEM?

[Roman Shaposhnik]

Btw, speaking of FOSDEM and ASF, is there a planning wiki page for 2017?

You know -- for things like booth schedule and such.

Thanks,
Roman.

On Sun, Dec 25, 2016 at 6:21 PM, Tim Letter <king.letter...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Am 23.12.2016 18:56 schrieb "Roman Shaposhnik" <ro...@shaposhnik.org>:
>
>> Doing it before or after the event may be easier since devrooms tend
>> to have after conference
>> activities along the lines of what you described.
>>
>> At any rate -- I'll be there a day before and after but both Sat and
>> Sun evenings are booked for
>> me with devroom dinners.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Roman.
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 7:33 AM, Raphael Bircher
>> <rbircherapa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Hi all
>> >
>> > I wonder if we want to do a community event at the Evening at FOSDEM in
>> > Bruxell. Going to a restaurant and eat somthing togetter is in my mind.
>> Who
>> > is interested in it.
>> >
>> > Regards Raphael
>> >
>> >
>> > -
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>>
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Re: Community Evening Event at FOSDEM?

[Roman Shaposhnik]

Doing it before or after the event may be easier since devrooms tend
to have after conference
activities along the lines of what you described.

At any rate -- I'll be there a day before and after but both Sat and
Sun evenings are booked for
me with devroom dinners.

Thanks,
Roman.

On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 7:33 AM, Raphael Bircher
 wrote:
> Hi all
>
> I wonder if we want to do a community event at the Evening at FOSDEM in
> Bruxell. Going to a restaurant and eat somthing togetter is in my mind. Who
> is interested in it.
>
> Regards Raphael
>
>
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Re: What's the plan? What are we here for?

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Shane Curcuru  wrote:
> Rich Bowen wrote on 12/5/16 12:54 PM:
>> As has been discussed elsewhere, we don't have a clear idea of what
>> we're here for. I believe we need to fix that.
>
> Meta-comments:
>
> - Specific proposals - especially things that can be written down as
> draft text on a webpage - always work better.  Why not start a new draft
> "ComDev Project Goals" page on the website, so it's simpler for people
> to submit specific patches.
>
> - In a non-code project, one of the hardest issues to deal with (at
> least for me) is working through negative or non-supportive feedback.
> Earlier, it felt like some people had new good ideas about docs, but
> were also saying that other people should stop what they're doing, and
> work on the docs first.  That feels like "getting in the way", although
> I realize now that it was just how I interpreted the tone, and not the
> real message.
>
> I guess this is just a call for all of us to not get in other energetic
> volunteer's ways.  We all have great ideas, now the trick is to help or
> at least allow some of us to actually implement those ideas - perhaps as
> draft goals to start with, but to let Rich make progress here (and Uli
> to make progress on the GSoC agreement and survey).
>
> Just because someone else has a different idea doesn't mean that Rich
> shouldn't also go forward with his idea, for example, and vice-versa.
> This is not a zero-sum game, and unless someone's idea is actively
> hurting the project's efforts, let's try to say "Yes, but..." instead of
> "No, not like that..." more.  8-)
>
> Rich, I'm definitely +1 for you to organize this and put it on the
> website for the PMC to - over some time - tweak and better publicize.

Huge +1 to the above. And just be clear -- my personal intent was to simply
indicate some of the boundaries that need to be crossed with great, great
caution. Everything else I'm hugely supportive of, but more from the 'cheering
from the sidelines' kind of a way.

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: What's the plan? What are we here for?

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 11:38 AM, Daniel Gruno  wrote:
> I might ask; What else is the purpose of this PMC? Why have a PMC, if
> the PMC is unwilling to do anything but their own individual interests
> with seemingly little to no regard to whether it's within the mission
> and reason behind ComDev. It's supposed to be a Project Management
> Committee, and yet we're reluctant to manage anything here.

That's an excellent question. I believe that the activity that's
happening in the PMC
is all in support of its charter. Rich is saying -- lets do more of it
and be more active.
I'm all for it -- although I can't really commit to doing more than
what I'm already doing
for community development (which I happen to have feedback from various people
is considered to be quite a bit). Rich is doing fantastic job with
Events and Outreach.
This stuff is happening.

Your question is more along the lines of: at which point should the
board look at ComDev
and ask itself a question: "is there enough stuff happening for it to
still be a project?".
That's an excellent question and I honestly don't know how to answer
it. I do, however,
know how that question is answered for code-producing PMCs. It happens
by filling
in a bunch of data points starting from:
   * when was the last time a PMC member was elected?
   * when was the last release?
   * what's the level of activity
   * etc...

So perhaps starting with applying most of the same metrics here would
help us understand
'how ComDev PMC is doing'. Just a thought.

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: What's the plan? What are we here for?

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 11:45 AM, Rich Bowen <rbo...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 12/06/2016 01:26 PM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
>> I'd like to strongly echo Bertrand here. To me, ComDev is first, and foremost
>> an ASF's braintrust if you will of things that have to do with
>> community development,
>> governance and all around non-coding. It is a place to come and ask
>> for advice, etc.
>>
>> Of course, anything we can do to clean up documentation or provide
>> better guidance
>> is welcome, but I don't think ComDev is responsible for community
>> development of ASF
>> the same way that Rich is responsible for it at his day job.
>
> So, to quote Tyrion Lannister, we drink and we know things?

That's a very, very good way to put it!

> Well, the point of this thread is that I think that's not enough any
> more. It's taking the easy way out, and will eventually lead to an ASF
> where more and more projects are satellites, disconnected from the
> central ASF community, and we no longer share any commonality between
> ASF projects.

Good point, but to answer another point brought by Daniel lets look at
what this PMC's charter says:


   WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best
   interests of the Foundation and consistent with the
   Foundation's purpose to establish a Project Management
   Committee charged with coordinating community development
   efforts.


that last part "charged with coordinating community development efforts"
has a very important keyword -- coordinating. We ARE a coordinating body
according to our charter. What it translates into for me is helping
those interested
in community development within each project find common tools, approaches
and techniques. Just like with IPMC -- it is a pull model, rather than
a push one.

Now, nothing prevents us from clarifying the charter (or going above and beyond
it) but I just wanted to point out where we stand.

> Any community (or company, or country, or whatever) that grows at the
> rate that the ASF is growing risks losing its identity unless culture is
> actively preserved - unless community is actively developed.

I'd argue that establishing initial culture is the job of IPMC (mostly
via mentors).
Monitoring the culture of TLPs is the job of the board and membership.

> We have been entrusted by the board to do that community development.

Perhaps you'll look at it as semantics -- but my read is that we've been
entrusted with *coordination* of said community development. So yes:
"we drink and we know things" until such a point that a charter gets clarified.

> I want the ASF to still be here in 50 years, and I want the ASF in 50
> years to be something that we would recognize. It's not enough to drink
> and know things - though I recommend both of these things highly. We
> need to be actively training the young'uns to run with our passion when
> we aren't there any more.

Once again - young'uns in terms of the project age is the IPMC's job.
young'uns in terms on n00bs coming to existing ASF projects is individual
PMC's job.

So what's left for ComDev? Policing?

That later point is why I felt compelled to pile on top of Bertrand was saying.
I really don't want ComDev to become the owners of "The Apache Way".
That's membership's job. Even less do I want ComDev to get in the business
of policing.

> No doubt someone will say that this is the Incubator's job. The
> Incubator is there to train projects at onboarding.

No way! That's just not the case given the IPMC charter. I really strongly
disagree with you restricting it that way.

> We are here to
> develop community, and encourage projects to continue doing what the
> Incubator taught them, and to draw them deeper into the ASF family. In a
> sense ComDev picks up where the Incubator leaves off. And then at some
> point we hand off to Attic. It's a circle of life thing.

See. That's where my problem with your proposal really begins -- the PMC is
really either ready or not. If it is ready -- it MUST be capable of
self-managing.
That includes "training the young'uns" and proliferating ASF culture. And if PMC
needs resources and/or help -- sure there will be ComDev ready to help.

"Apache Way" governance model is appealing precisely because of the same reason
that US federal model is: there's a non-negotiable culture statement
called Constitution.
The rest is left up to the states. And yes Feds can create programs to
get state's attention
(mostly via financial incentives) but other that that states are free
to define their own
policies (still within what's allowed by the constitution).

But ok, you're clearly increasing the charter of ComDev. 

Re: What's the plan? What are we here for?

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 3:10 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
 wrote:
> Hi Rich,
>
> On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 6:54 PM, Rich Bowen  wrote:
>> ...I think it's
>> fine for us, as a PMC in the most important open source organization on
>> the planet, to have a similar level of rigor...
>
> I'm +0 on better defining the goals of comdev - meaning I think it's a
> good idea but I don't have time to contribute much to that myself at
> the moment.
>
> However I think we should not make people feel bad if they cannot help
> as much as we or they would like to, by setting unrealistic goals.
>
> Like any Apache project, comdev must enjoy whatever value its
> contributors add, while making it clear that people are free to
> contribute as much or as little as they are willing and able.
>
> I hope we agree on that and I think we do, I'm just slightly worried
> that your initiative might be interpreted in the wrong way.

I'd like to strongly echo Bertrand here. To me, ComDev is first, and foremost
an ASF's braintrust if you will of things that have to do with
community development,
governance and all around non-coding. It is a place to come and ask
for advice, etc.

Of course, anything we can do to clean up documentation or provide
better guidance
is welcome, but I don't think ComDev is responsible for community
development of ASF
the same way that Rich is responsible for it at his day job. It is the
same way with Incubator.
IPMC is not really in business of making sure there's a steady
pipeline of projects -- we're
just there to help (and do our best!) when there's a steady pipeline.

Thanks,
Roman (as a ComDev PMC member).

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Re: [QUESTION] Is Maven Central part of the ASF infrastructure?

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 1:53 PM, Jacques Le Roux
 wrote:
>
> I'm new to the Maven world (through Gradle), and I wonder: is Maven Central 
> part of the ASF infrastructure?

No. But it does mirror all of the artifacts released by ASF. The
official ASF Maven repository is at:
   http://repository.apache.org

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: ASF Stand for FOSDEM 2017

[Roman Shaposhnik]

Awesome news

Roman.

On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 5:44 AM, Sharan F  wrote:
> Hi Everyone
>
> A quick update - the application for an ASF stand at FOSDEM 2017 has been
> accepted. I actually applied for two tables like we had at FOSDEM earlier
> this year but they have been oversubscribed so had to reduce it only one.
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
>
> On 25/11/16 23:06, FOSDEM Stands Team wrote:
>>
>> Hi Sharan,
>>
>> The FOSDEM stands team is glad to be able to inform you that your request
>> for a stand for The Apache Software Foundation has been accepted.
>> There will be one table reserved for you.
>>
>> We have received almost twice as many proposals as we could accept.
>> In order to be able to accept more projects, we have reduced most
>> requests for multiple tables to only one table.
>>
>> You will receive further information about what's expected of you
>> closer to the event date.
>>
>> Looking forward to seeing you at FOSDEM 2017!
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Johan van Selst
>> FOSDEM stands team
>
>
>
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Re: ApacheCon.com updated

[Roman Shaposhnik]

Very nice refresh!

Roman.

On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 9:46 AM, Rich Bowen  wrote:
> After threatening to do this for a mere 5 years, I've refreshed
> ApacheCon.com a little to make it slightly less awful. I don't claim to
> be a web designer by any stretch of the imagination, so if folks wish to
> make enhancements, well, it's in svn.
>
> I've also added a new page - http://apachecon.com/sponsor - which is
> hopefully a good single resource that you can point people to if they
> express interest in sponsoring ApacheCon. It's got reasons why it's a
> good thing to do, a recording of other sponsors talking about how
> awesome ApacheCon is, and links to sponsorship opportunities.
>
> Now, to make this a little easier to update and publish ...
>
> --
> Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
> http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
>

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Re: ASF for Google Code-In

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:19 PM, Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 31/10/2016 22:53, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
>> Hi!
>>
>> thanks for the positive feedback. As Mark said -- time is tight
>> so please respond to the following ASAP.
>>
>> I went through the registration process on behalf of ASF and
>> two statements stood out:
>>1. Google is asking whether we'd be comfortable supplying
>> ~200 small'ish tasks. I think we are.
>
> We should be able to do that.
>
>> 2. There's an Organization Agreement that I'm expected to click
>> through. I'm attaching it bellow. It looks pretty bare bones to me,
>> but if anything jumps at you -- please let me know ASAP.
>
> Two issues jump out at me.
>
> You don't have the authority to sign it. You need to be an officer of
> the foundation to do that and as I recall you aren't currently a V.P..

I don't think that's required. At least not on the Google side. They
defined who can sign up an org on the first screen and it was "any
active member..."

Now, as a board member you may have a take on whether that's
ok from ASF side, but its ok with Google.

> I'm not comfortable with the Indemnities section. Our liability to
> Google is unlimited with no control over the expenses that Google could
> rack up. There are various scenarios that are well within the bounds of
> possibility that could trigger a liability for us. That exposes that ASF
> to a massive potential risk.
>
> Google's liability to us is limited to a mere $1,000.
>
> Putting on my director hat, V.P. Legal (Bcc'd) needs to sign off on this
> before anyone commits the ASF to this agreement.

Hm. Ok. That could be a deal breaker. Well, if V.P. Legal can chime
in one way or the other ASAP -- that'd be highly appreciated.

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: ASF for Google Code-In

[Roman Shaposhnik]

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On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 7:27 AM, Stian Soiland-Reyes <st...@apache.org> wrote:
> +1 to have a go, we discussed it in Taverna as well, we could give them
> something to do in the Android app.
>
> It would be a bit similar to HelpWanted.apache.org I guess, but with
> mentoring..? It would have to be quite bite-sized for high school students,
> but you would probably also be surprised as to what some of them can do!
>
> On 30 Oct 2016 11:22 pm, "Roman Shaposhnik" <ro...@shaposhnik.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi!
>>
>> a project I mentor got interested in:
>>  https://developers.google.com/open-source/gci/
>>
>> Has there been any attempts to have ASF
>> as a mentoring organization there?
>>
>> The current list of orgs is pretty eclectic:
>>https://codein.withgoogle.com/archive/2015/organization/
>> but given that folks like Ubuntu are on the list
>> I don't see why ASF shouldn't be.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Roman.
>>
>> -
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>>
>>

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ASF for Google Code-In

[Roman Shaposhnik]

Hi!

a project I mentor got interested in:
 https://developers.google.com/open-source/gci/

Has there been any attempts to have ASF
as a mentoring organization there?

The current list of orgs is pretty eclectic:
   https://codein.withgoogle.com/archive/2015/organization/
but given that folks like Ubuntu are on the list
I don't see why ASF shouldn't be.

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: Apache Verticals (A new opensource perspective)

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 1:32 PM, Radhakrishna Kalyan
 wrote:
> Hello Apache friends,
>
> I have been using Apache libraries since I started coding.
> And it is great in its own way.
>
> Till now I found Apache created applications or libraries that are more
> generic which can be used in any domain like(Medicine, Engineering, Finance
> etc.) where ever applicable. And that is good.
>
> However a though came to my mind where I felt, how would it be if Apache
> community also start focusing domain related applications, I mean
> applications more aligned towards a given domain.
>
> A simple example would be "Mobile Payments" could be one domain area.
> And having an opensource "Apache Mobile Wallet" would be very great.
>
> Similarly more applications can be incubated for other relevant domains
> (Finance, Astronomy, Construction, etc).

Funny you should mention finance and payments -- a podling I'm mentoring
is building exactly that: http://fineract.incubator.apache.org/

This is the tech behind: http://mifos.org/

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: FOSDEM 2017

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Daniel Gruno  wrote:
> On 08/15/2016 08:48 PM, Dr. Michael Stehmann wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> the call for participation at FOSDEM 2017 is open:
>>
>>   https://fosdem.org/2017/news/2016-07-20-call-for-participation/
>>
>> I hope will have a common Apache booth again. It was a great success
>> this year.
>
> We will *definitely* be signing up for an Apache booth for 2017 as well :)
> The people normally in charge of this are a bit busy at the moment, but
> as the deadline for stands is October 31st, I'm sure we'll make it in
> time :)

Count me in for help! We are also submitting the Bigdata/HPC Devroom
proposal (same as last year) where I'd hope to see a lot of Apache
Projects represented.

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: [APACHECON] Question about Lightning Talks

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Sun, Jun 12, 2016 at 11:07 PM, Rich Bowen  wrote:
> Another important reason to forbid slides is that one point of lightning
> talks is to offer the stage to people that would not otherwise give a talk.
> Thus, keeping the bar as low as possible encourages people to step up who
> haven't necessarily prepared anything ahead of time.

Yes, but forbid? Why? If somebody wants one or two slides in PDF why not
make it an option? Be draconian in the deadline of when you need a PDF
(since it has to be stitched into a single slide deck on a single
laptop) but otherwise
I see no danger.

It does place more burden on the organizer of the session (as last
ApacheCON has
demonstrated).

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: [APACHECON] Question about Lightning Talks

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 11:06 PM, Shane Curcuru  wrote:
> As a regular LightningTalk MC at ApacheCon / Apache Big Data, we look
> for a mix of talks, often focusing on the community and humor aspects.
>
> Talks are 5 minutes, with a timer.  Slides are not allowed unless you're
> Rich Bowen (or, can promise to be as informative *and* amusing as Rich is!).
>
> Sometimes we have the "Fast Feather" track, which is the 15 minute
> format William notes below; that usually focuses on Incubating projects.
>  It depends on the ApacheCon program if we run that or not.
>
> Volunteering to help review talks, work with projects to suggest
> track-days, and the like can also be a big help.  Currently, Rich is the
> ASF liaison to the Linux Foundation team that actually manages the whole
> ApacheCon planning process.
>
> Separately, the Podling Shark Tank sessions at the past
> ApacheCon|BigData in Vancouver were popular, contact Roman if your
> content would fit in that format.
>
> ApacheCon past audio recordings (selected talks):
>   http://feathercast.apache.org/tag/apachecon/
>
> ApacheCon|BigData 2016 videos (keynotes only; that's all that attracted
> sponsors to help fund)
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOZnf8Nn3Fo=PLGeM09tlguZTvqV5g7KwFhxDlWi4njK6n
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTfIAWhd3qI=PLGeM09tlguZQ3ouijqG4r1YIIZYxCKsLp

And to pile on top of Shane's excellent answer: keep in mind that
Podling Shark Tank
wasn't some grand plan but rather a session submitted via regular CFP
of the conference.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this: whatever your crazy idea --
just submit it! ;-)

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?)

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 4:17 PM, Joseph Schaefer
 wrote:
> As others have said Roman, including Ross,  it is neither likely to be used 
> nor necessary to
> cleave a boundary between volunteers and Ross, but in the interests of 
> keeping the peace
> I'm willing to compromise.
> Your patch is ok with me.

Thank you for a quick review, Joe! I'll apply tmr morning (unless
somebody objects in the meantime).

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?)

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 11:55 AM, Mark Thomas  wrote:
> On 30/05/2016 18:30, Ross Gardler wrote:
>> Yes. Thanks to everyone working this out.
>
> Done. Thanks Marvin.

Good progress. Would an additional patch attached bellow be acceptable?
https://paste.apache.org/FAVL

I said it once and I'll say it again, but perhaps better yet -- I'll just quote
Ross to make sure that my *intent* does't get misinterpreted and/or
questioned by Joe again.

"My only concern is that there needs to be a single channel for
official complaints. That should remain President (at least while the
sitting President is willing to take on that responsibility)."

This is my very strong concern as to how the current text of CoC reads.

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?)

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:00 PM, Joe Schaefer  wrote:
> To a native English reader, Shane's commentary is perfectly aligned with
> Marvin's patch.

Yes. Which is why I wrote: "Marvin, at this point what I'm about to
ask of you is
grossly unfair (since your proposal, apparently doesn't really make
anything worse)
but would you consider the above statement by Shane to be your course
of action?"

Marvin patch can definitely go ahead since it does NOT make the current
horrible situation any worse. It simply doesn't make it any better.
Hence +0 on it.

That said -- I still don't understand why we shouldn't follow the proposal that
Shane outlined.

If you're rushing to apply Marvin's patch -- fine -- go ahead. I'll
take care of Shane's
approach over the weekend and replace it then.

> There are absolutely no gaps in direction despite your
> fierce irrational opposition to having a pair of board members try to get
> something meaningful accomplished for the foundation.

Could you, please stop with posturing(*)? We had a discussion. That corrected
my understanding of what president@a.o does. What's difficult about this
to understand?

> How about letting people who want to fix this have a go at it without
> further obstruction and obfuscation, Roman?

The patch doesn't fix anything. It simply make an already horrible situation
no more horrible.

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?)

[Roman Shaposhnik]

If you can find all the same detailed explanations that Shane has provided
in your paragraph simply saying "because I believe we still archive the
president@ alias" I'll buy you a beer.

Also, Joe, I'm sorry to say that -- but I do find your writing style *very*
difficult to follow when it comes to details.

Thanks,
Roman.

On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 7:31 PM, Joe Schaefer <joe_schae...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Here was your reply to me when I first pointed out the deficiencies with
> president@.  So much for the difficult to understand flowery prose, you keep
> changing your stripes with each passing hour:
>
>
> On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 8:02 PM, Joseph Schaefer <joe_schae...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Having a foundation wide CoC is great, but as to whether president@ is
>> effective I have
>> never seen the board report which indicates that it is actually being used
>> and things are
>> happening with those reports (if any).
>>
>> Rather than a generic officer address I suggest a dedicated alias with
>> named people in
>> the CoC responsible for follow up. Expectations of confidentiality need to
>> be communicated
>> because I believe we still archive the president@ alias.
>
> Joe, thank you for this suggestion. This is precisely the kind of
> actionable AND non-trivial
> suggestions that so far have been lacking on this thread.
>
> Shall we fork it into a separate thread to get a closure?
>  Show original message
> On Friday, May 27, 2016 10:26 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
> wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 7:20 PM, Joe Schaefer <joe_schae...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>> Here's what I wrote to you on members@ Roman:
>>
>> """
>> You're overlooking the archiving problem with president@ Roman.
>> That we tell people in the CoC that a report to that channel is available
>> to roughly 600 people unknown to them is needed if we are going to
>> not paper over the fact that it's really not what a normal person would
>> consider "confidential" despite the language in the CoC.  Much less the
>> additional hundred or so unknown people on a pmc list who would have
>> access to the report if it were made to private@pmc.
>> """
>>
>> Hard to have an intelligent conversation with you Roman when only one of
>> us
>> is paying attention to what the other has said.
>
> It would be much easier to have an intelligent conversation with me,
> Joe, if your
> english prose was structured along the lines of what Shane wrote to me.
>
> I understand your desire for emphatic, floury language, but what you
> don't realize
> is that you make it very difficult to distill data points from your
> paragraph by employing
> that kind of language.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
>

Re: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?)

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 7:20 PM, Joe Schaefer  wrote:
> Here's what I wrote to you on members@ Roman:
>
> """
> You're overlooking the archiving problem with president@ Roman.
> That we tell people in the CoC that a report to that channel is available
> to roughly 600 people unknown to them is needed if we are going to
> not paper over the fact that it's really not what a normal person would
> consider "confidential" despite the language in the CoC.  Much less the
> additional hundred or so unknown people on a pmc list who would have
> access to the report if it were made to private@pmc.
> """
>
> Hard to have an intelligent conversation with you Roman when only one of us
> is paying attention to what the other has said.

It would be much easier to have an intelligent conversation with me,
Joe, if your
english prose was structured along the lines of what Shane wrote to me.

I understand your desire for emphatic, floury language, but what you
don't realize
is that you make it very difficult to distill data points from your
paragraph by employing
that kind of language.

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?)

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 5:20 PM, Joe Schaefer
 wrote:
> Roman,
> I've been beating the archiving problem with president@ like a dead horse for 
> the past week- what
> on earth have you been reading to avoid that reality?

Archiving per se is not a problem. If the archive is only available to
the board I'm border line ok with that.
What I didn't know (and it didn't come up in your emails) is that
there could be other folks having access
to the content of president@ who may or may not be on the board.
That's a big, huge problem.

> Furthermore, I doubt president@ has an associated qmail owner file, which 
> means any addresses listed in that alias that go to domains whose mail 
> servers do strict SPF checks will BOUNCE email from major email providers who 
> publish such rules, and those bounce mails may wind up being DROPPED by 
> Apache's qmail server since it's attempt to deliver the bounce mail back to 
> the sender may also be REJECTED by the original sending domain.

That is also a good point.

> All of this leads to problems that, while some are fixable, others are simply 
> not.
> We need a better strategy, and it should be collaborative rather than 
> dictatorial.

Not sure what you mean, but as I said ideally I'd like it to be an
alias for an officer
appointed by the board. That's my MVP. What Shane suggested builds up on that
and may provide an even better solution.

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?)

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 4:27 PM, Shane Curcuru <a...@shanecurcuru.org> wrote:
> Roman Shaposhnik wrote on 5/26/16 6:20 PM:
> ...
>> Before I answer that question, lets clarify something:
>>
>>> *   Keep the current mechanism (report to the archived alias 
>>> president@apache)
>>> but change the CoC text to indicate that reporting is not confidential.
>>
>> My understanding from the explanation Ross gave me was that reports to
>> president@a.o were strictly confidential (which in my mind also translated 
>> into
>> lack of archives). Ross, can you please elaborate on this?
>
> Emails to president@ (as far as I can tell) go to an alias which
> forwards to Ross (and EVP, and possibly someone else), as well as going
> to an archived mailbox which I and others can access (not sure if it's
> just a group of officers & board, or if this archive is Member access).

This is horrible. Not you, Shane, of course, but rather my understanding
of what it does.

> Happy for someone from infra to point out the specific technical
> details, but no, if we want a fully confidential CoC reporting method,
> in my mind president@ is *not* sufficient for the long term.
>
> I would prefer for President, EVP, directors to agree on a single email
> alias that is an unarchived alias, with a published list of the specific
> ASF Officers or Members that it goes to directly (names to be approved
> by President).

That is exactly my preference as well.

Marvin, at this point what I'm about to ask of you is grossly unfair (since
your proposal, apparently doesn't really make anything worse) but would
you consider the above statement by Shane to be your course of action?

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?)

[Roman Shaposhnik]

+Ross for explicit clarification.

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Marvin Humphrey <mar...@rectangular.com> wrote:
> Hi, Roman,
>
> Thanks for the review.
>
> On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 8:49 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <r...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Like I said, having a group of volunteers is fine as an intermediate
>> step of handling the concern.  The ultimate escalation channel has to be a
>> single officer appointed by the board.
>
> So, what approach would work for you?

Before I answer that question, lets clarify something:

> *   Keep the current mechanism (report to the archived alias president@apache)
> but change the CoC text to indicate that reporting is not confidential.

My understanding from the explanation Ross gave me was that reports to
president@a.o were strictly confidential (which in my mind also translated into
lack of archives). Ross, can you please elaborate on this?

Thanks,
Roman.

> *   Report to the unarchived alias ombud@apache and require that the President
> (or their delegate) be one of the addresses behind the alias.
> *   Report to individual volunteers but have the volunteers report something
> about the incident to the President.
> *   Report to ombud@apache alias but have the volunteers behind
> ombud@apache report something about the incident to the President.
> *   ...
>
>> Only having president@ there as an escalation channel gives me the needed
>> level of comfort to stand behind our CoC and be confident that even those
>> wishing ultimate anonymity and bringing us highest level of concerns from
>> the point of view of how it may backfire on the individual can be
>> accommodated.
>
> So if I understand correctly, your concern is that someone reporting a
> violation of the code of conduct may be subject to retaliation.  But isn't
> that possibility what we're trying to mitigate by moving the reporting
> mechanism away from the archived alias president@apache, which 700+ ASF
> Members (including emeritus Members) have access to?
>
>> During the good times we all feel like we're one big happy family and why
>> the heck won't we all get along and trust each other. But CoC and its
>> escalation policy is NOT written for those times.
>
> I would certainly agree that the escalation aspects of the CoC need to be
> well-handled, for the sake of all parties involved in any incident.
>
> But I would also say that the fact that we have a CoC, and that it is taken
> seriously and implemented well, also has a beneficial effect during the "good
> times".  It is good to know that the safety net is there.
>
> Marvin Humphrey

Re: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?)

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 9:56 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org> wrote:
> On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 7:16 PM, Joe Schaefer
> <joe_schae...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>> Patch looks pretty straightforward Marvin.
>
> It may very well be. In fact, if it looks so straightforward you should be 
> able
> to provide a diff in no time at all. Please do so at your earliest 
> convenience.

Several folks pointed out: https://paste.apache.org/3AuO to me which I missed.
Apologies for that.

Now that I'm looking at the modification I'm very, very strongly -1 on
it. Like I said,
having a group of volunteers is fine as an intermediate step of
handling the concern.
The ultimate escalation channel has to be a single officer appointed
by the board.

Only having president@ there as an escalation channel gives me the needed level
of comfort to stand behind our CoC and be confident that even those
wishing ultimate
anonymity and bringing us highest level of concerns from the point of
view of how it
may backfire on the individual can be accommodated.

During the good times we all feel like we're one big happy family and
why the heck
won't we all get along and trust each other. But CoC and its
escalation policy is
NOT written for those times.

For more on why this is a much more involved subject I highly
recommend reading this:

http://www.amazon.com/Bravehearts-Whistle-Blowing-Snowden-Mark-Hertsgaard/dp/1510703373

One again, to recap:

-1

Thanks,
Roman.