Re: [Plugin] PDA or Sidebar output plugin ?
Hi, I fully agree with you. Sidebar is browser dependent and is generally made to be automatically and frequently refreshed - just as CNN sidebar does, dispaying the titles of the recent news... I think I started this thread, so allow me to close it. Sidebar is not a good idea. (This discussion opened my eyes) The only thing I keep in mind is the idea to generate a PDA site with a specific output plugin... Regards, Cyriaque, Mark Eggers a écrit : I apologize for joining this discussion late. --- Ross Gardler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ferdinand Soethe wrote: I think it would be great to have optional support for advanced features of smarter browsers. Though that means you would have to support several access options (smart and dumb) for the same browser. While I like the idea of exploring advanced features of some of the browsers, I do think it should be optional. This does create an extra burden for the site administrator. That person would have to keep up two sets of style sheets (or sites!) as well as having a pretty good set of selection rules to distinguish between all the browsers. second permanent window area to support all kinds of extra info see www.granneman.com/webdev/browsers/mozillafirefoxnetscape/sidebars.htm. I really don't like the sidebar and will only use it occasionally for history searches. In general when I put together or read web pages, I like as much screen real estate as possible. I wouldn't put navigation in the side bar, that is not really what it is for. I agree with this. The sidebar information in the web site example has nothing to do with the page being viewed. The user has full control over when a side bar is viewed and therefore if you put something critical to your page in there (like navigation) your page may appear broken to the user. I agree with this. What happens when a user makes consistent use of the sidebar, as in the Scott Granneman example? Does the Forrest sidebar overwrite the user's sidebar? Do you end up with two sidebars and half the screen real estate gone? This second option might be manageable if Forrest's structure was more liquid. My real problem with this is that it strays quite far from standards, and thus accessibility. I think it's not safe to have critical parts of a web site depend on optional (flash, shockwave, java, javascript) or browser-specific (ActiveZ, rounded corners in CSS, sidebars) functionality. Just my two cents . . . . /mde/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Plugin] PDA or Sidebar output plugin ?
On Fri, 2005-04-29 at 09:28 +0200, Cyriaque Dupoirieux wrote: Hi, I fully agree with you. Sidebar is browser dependent and is generally made to be automatically and frequently refreshed - just as CNN sidebar does, dispaying the titles of the recent news... I think I started this thread, so allow me to close it. Sidebar is not a good idea. (This discussion opened my eyes) The only thing I keep in mind is the idea to generate a PDA site with a specific output plugin... You may consider to write a viewHelper implementation for pda. ;-) I will helping you the best I can with it. salu2 Regards, Cyriaque, Mark Eggers a écrit : I apologize for joining this discussion late. --- Ross Gardler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ferdinand Soethe wrote: I think it would be great to have optional support for advanced features of smarter browsers. Though that means you would have to support several access options (smart and dumb) for the same browser. While I like the idea of exploring advanced features of some of the browsers, I do think it should be optional. This does create an extra burden for the site administrator. That person would have to keep up two sets of style sheets (or sites!) as well as having a pretty good set of selection rules to distinguish between all the browsers. second permanent window area to support all kinds of extra info see www.granneman.com/webdev/browsers/mozillafirefoxnetscape/sidebars.htm. I really don't like the sidebar and will only use it occasionally for history searches. In general when I put together or read web pages, I like as much screen real estate as possible. I wouldn't put navigation in the side bar, that is not really what it is for. I agree with this. The sidebar information in the web site example has nothing to do with the page being viewed. The user has full control over when a side bar is viewed and therefore if you put something critical to your page in there (like navigation) your page may appear broken to the user. I agree with this. What happens when a user makes consistent use of the sidebar, as in the Scott Granneman example? Does the Forrest sidebar overwrite the user's sidebar? Do you end up with two sidebars and half the screen real estate gone? This second option might be manageable if Forrest's structure was more liquid. My real problem with this is that it strays quite far from standards, and thus accessibility. I think it's not safe to have critical parts of a web site depend on optional (flash, shockwave, java, javascript) or browser-specific (ActiveZ, rounded corners in CSS, sidebars) functionality. Just my two cents . . . . /mde/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- thorsten Together we stand, divided we fall! Hey you (Pink Floyd)
Re: [Plugin] PDA or Sidebar output plugin ?
I think it would be great to have optional support for advanced features of smarter browsers. Though that means you would have to support several access options (smart and dumb) for the same browser. I guess this is what views are all about?! David Crossley wrote: DC I don't understand your intention, so this comment DC might be off-track ... My understanding of this is that a couple of browsers like Firefox and Mozilla support a sidebar (second pane) that can be used for having a second permanent window area to support all kinds of extra info see http://www.granneman.com/webdev/browsers/mozillafirefoxnetscape/sidebars.htm. So in order to support this in a useful way, all navigational elements would need to be moved to a second set of sidebar pages while header stuff like Logos etc would still be needed at the top (which might be different for PDAs). The technology of a sidebar seems quite similar to Framesets. Create independent sidebar pages and use links with target='content' to open pages in the main content pane. More on this in See http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/sidebar_how.jsp http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/sidebar_example.jsp Conclusion: It might make sense to implement sidebar support and frame-support together since it only requires one more page with the frameset elements. _However_ if my understanding is correct so far, I wonder what advantage there is in supporting sidebars or frames apart from keeping the menu in sight while scrolling through a long page. And this can (and should) also be achieved using CSS. I just raised this in a new topic Why are navigational element are not static when scrolling long pages? And since, in order to achieve real improvements (such as having menues that don't cause so much traffic), we would need to use client side programming anyway, why not make that standards conforming and client independent? Am I making sense? -- Ferdinand Soethe
Re: [Plugin] PDA or Sidebar output plugin ?
David Crossley a écrit : Cyriaque Dupoirieux wrote: Does anyone work on a plugin to generate a simple version of the site (for Mozilla/firefox sidebar or for PDA ?) I don't understand your intention, so this comment might be off-track ... There is the beginning of the plain skin which could perhaps be turned an output plugin. http://forrest.apache.org/0.7/docs/skins.html#plain-dev No, no, with Nescape, Mozilla, Firefox and Opera browsers - and maybe others ? - Sidebars are small HTML or XUL pages which open in the left part of your browser - a specific frame which automatically opens - and whose links refresh the right part. The links use a specific target : _content to do this. Cf. : http://devedge-temp.mozilla.org/viewsource/2002/sidebar/ Example : google sidebar : http://www.google.com/mozilla/google.xul2 Regards, Cyriaque, Though it might be better to wait/help with the new plugins View and ViewHelper, which i gather will do away with the skins concept. --David
Re: [Plugin] PDA or Sidebar output plugin ?
You were faster than I Ferdinand, Thank you for your explaination. Regards, Cyriaque, Ferdinand Soethe a écrit : I think it would be great to have optional support for advanced features of smarter browsers. Though that means you would have to support several access options (smart and dumb) for the same browser. I guess this is what views are all about?! David Crossley wrote: DC I don't understand your intention, so this comment DC might be off-track ... My understanding of this is that a couple of browsers like Firefox and Mozilla support a sidebar (second pane) that can be used for having a second permanent window area to support all kinds of extra info see http://www.granneman.com/webdev/browsers/mozillafirefoxnetscape/sidebars.htm. So in order to support this in a useful way, all navigational elements would need to be moved to a second set of sidebar pages while header stuff like Logos etc would still be needed at the top (which might be different for PDAs). The technology of a sidebar seems quite similar to Framesets. Create independent sidebar pages and use links with target='content' to open pages in the main content pane. More on this in See http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/sidebar_how.jsp http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/sidebar_example.jsp Conclusion: It might make sense to implement sidebar support and frame-support together since it only requires one more page with the frameset elements. _However_ if my understanding is correct so far, I wonder what advantage there is in supporting sidebars or frames apart from keeping the menu in sight while scrolling through a long page. And this can (and should) also be achieved using CSS. I just raised this in a new topic Why are navigational element are not static when scrolling long pages? And since, in order to achieve real improvements (such as having menues that don't cause so much traffic), we would need to use client side programming anyway, why not make that standards conforming and client independent? Am I making sense? -- Ferdinand Soethe
Re: [Plugin] PDA or Sidebar output plugin ?
Cyriaque Dupoirieux wrote: Does anyone work on a plugin to generate a simple version of the site (for Mozilla/firefox sidebar or for PDA ?) I do not know if someone is working on it, but it would be nice at least to do some research and put the result on a bug. This way someone could start working. WDYT? Cheers, Cheche
Re: [Plugin] PDA or Sidebar output plugin ?
On Wed, 2005-04-27 at 18:07 +0200, Juan Jose Pablos wrote: Cyriaque Dupoirieux wrote: Does anyone work on a plugin to generate a simple version of the site (for Mozilla/firefox sidebar or for PDA ?) I do not know if someone is working on it, but it would be nice at least to do some research and put the result on a bug. This way someone could start working. WDYT? I guess cheche invited you start this plugin. ;-) If you do and run into problems just write to this list and we will try to help you. salu2 -- thorsten Together we stand, divided we fall! Hey you (Pink Floyd)
