Re: Proposal: Remove mod_imap from default list
Astrid Keßler wrote: I do think that mod_userdir, mod_asis, mod_imap, and mod_status should _not_ be enabled by default in the configuration, although I see no reason why the should not be built at compile time. The point is: these modules are copiled statically (by default). I would not compile modules to be static, if they are not active by default. dang, you're right! I thought that we were doing shared builds by default. But I just tried it and got a static build with what looks like the most list enabled. Maybe I was thinking of 1.3 and/or binbuild. For some reason I thought we switched to shared builds by default on 2.0 several web years ago on platforms where it works. Why can't we do that? Greg
Re: Proposal: Remove mod_imap from default list
On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, Greg Ames wrote: Rich Bowen wrote: The comment about mod_asis was probably unwarranted. I think that there are probably people that use mod_asis. We did use mod_asis on daedalus not too long ago, but don't seem to at present. I have no way of knowing how common it is. If we decide to not build it by default but then need it again on daedalus, that wouldn't be a big deal. I've seen it used regularly on older sites; which use it to do clever forwarding; i.e. without having to invoke perl/php/cgi. It is ages since I've seen it used for things like 'fishcam' like annimations. Dw.
Re: Proposal: Remove mod_imap from default list
On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, Astrid [ISO-8859-1] Keßler wrote: I suggest to remove from default: mod_userdir, mod_asis, mod_imap and mod_status I'm not sure about mod_userdir. It's used, yes, but it need not be default. I think of mod_userdir as an additional feature. Based on IRC and mailing list traffic, I think that people would be very astonished if mod_userdir was not part of a new installation. -- Oh I have slipped the surly bonds of earth And danced the sky on laughter-silvered wings --High Flight (John Gillespie Magee)
Re: Proposal: Remove mod_imap from default list
On Sun, 9 Mar 2003, Joshua Slive wrote: 1. This might be a good opportunity to go through the whole list and see what should be in and out of a default build. For example, mod_expires might be a good addition. Of course, I don't have time to do this myself at the moment, so feel free to ignore this comment. On a related note ... I know that we really have nothing to say about this, but I was wondering if anyone knows who does the builds of Apache that ship with the various *nix'es out there. Some of them do quite ... interesting things, re default module lists. It might be nice to know who to contact to make recommendations. -- Rich Bowen - [EMAIL PROTECTED] As we trace our own few circles around the sun We get it backwards and our seven years go by like one Dog Years (Rush - Test for Echo - 1999)
mod_asis (was Re: Proposal: Remove mod_imap from default list)
On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, Greg Ames wrote: Rich Bowen wrote: The comment about mod_asis was probably unwarranted. I think that there are probably people that use mod_asis. I myself have used it more than once, and I don't get all that tricky with my code. It allows some things to be done extremely efficiently that otherwise would require much less efficient approaches. I'm for leaving it in. ~~~ Ray B. Morris [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.WebmastersGuide.com
Re: Proposal: Remove mod_imap from default list
Astrid Keßler wrote: I suggest to remove from default: mod_userdir, mod_asis, mod_imap and mod_status Most users don't know what to do with mod_asis or how to read mod_status. The only active installation of mod_status I've ever seen, has been at beginners first servers. http://www.apache.org/server-status I'd prefer to keep mod_status as a default. It's a good debugging/monitoring tool. Sure, there may be many users who don't know how to read it at first. But if they have problems and call for support, having it pre-built can lead to shorter problem resolution time. Greg
Re: Proposal: Remove mod_imap from default list
On Tue, Mar 11, 2003 at 09:58:58AM -0500, Greg Ames wrote: Astrid Ke?ler wrote: I suggest to remove from default: mod_userdir, mod_asis, mod_imap and mod_status Most users don't know what to do with mod_asis or how to read mod_status. The only active installation of mod_status I've ever seen, has been at beginners first servers. http://www.apache.org/server-status I'd prefer to keep mod_status as a default. It's a good debugging/monitoring tool. Sure, there may be many users who don't know how to read it at first. But if they have problems and call for support, having it pre-built can lead to shorter problem resolution time. In this discussion about default modules, I hear three different things: 1) compile a module by default (or what category, e.g most or all) 2) enable a module in the httpd.conf configuration 3) remove a module from the tree I don't think anyone means to remove the modules from Apache entirely. I do think that mod_userdir, mod_asis, mod_imap, and mod_status should _not_ be enabled by default in the configuration, although I see no reason why the should not be built at compile time. This way, they can be enabled by uncommenting the appropriate lines in the httpd.conf, but admins aren't running stuff unless they need it. Is there a way to separate what gets compiled from what gets enabled in the httpd.conf? Cheers, Glenn
Re: Proposal: Remove mod_imap from default list
On Tue, 11 Mar 2003, Rich Bowen wrote: I suggest to remove from default: mod_userdir, mod_asis, mod_imap and mod_status I'm not sure about mod_userdir. It's used, yes, but it need not be default. I think of mod_userdir as an additional feature. Based on IRC and mailing list traffic, I think that people would be very astonished if mod_userdir was not part of a new installation. Absolutely they would. And frankly I'm strongly opposed to removing any module, even mod_imap or mod_asis, from the default on 1.3 or 2.0 because we've now well-established what the default is. Principle of least astonishment. A configuration that worked in 1.3.27 should work in 1.3.28, and likewise for 2.0.x. If you want to remove things, do it in 2.1, but not before. --Cliff
Re: Proposal: Remove mod_imap from default list
On Tue, 11 Mar 2003, Cliff Woolley wrote: On Tue, 11 Mar 2003, Rich Bowen wrote: I suggest to remove from default: mod_userdir, mod_asis, mod_imap and mod_status I'm not sure about mod_userdir. It's used, yes, but it need not be default. I think of mod_userdir as an additional feature. Based on IRC and mailing list traffic, I think that people would be very astonished if mod_userdir was not part of a new installation. Absolutely they would. And frankly I'm strongly opposed to removing any module, even mod_imap or mod_asis, from the default on 1.3 or 2.0 because we've now well-established what the default is. Principle of least astonishment. A configuration that worked in 1.3.27 should work in 1.3.28, and likewise for 2.0.x. If you want to remove things, do it in 2.1, but not before. Yeah, I think that that's probably best. I agree, grudgingly, that this should be about 2.1 only. -- Rich Bowen - [EMAIL PROTECTED] As we trace our own few circles around the sun We get it backwards and our seven years go by like one Dog Years (Rush - Test for Echo - 1999)
Re: Proposal: Remove mod_imap from default list
First, I'm talking about changes in 2.1 only. I'm opposed against changing the module status in 1.3 or 2.0, too. :) In this discussion about default modules, I hear three different things: 1) compile a module by default (or what category, e.g most or all) 2) enable a module in the httpd.conf configuration 3) remove a module from the tree I don't think anyone means to remove the modules from Apache entirely. Ah, thank you Glenn for clarifying this. You are absolutely right. Point 1 is, what I'm talking about. I do think that mod_userdir, mod_asis, mod_imap, and mod_status should _not_ be enabled by default in the configuration, although I see no reason why the should not be built at compile time. The point is: these modules are copiled statically (by default). I would not compile modules to be static, if they are not active by default. Kess E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Proposal: Remove mod_imap from default list
* David Burry ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote : are we talking about removing modules entirely, or just modifying what's enabled by default? Just what's enabled by default. -Thom
Re: Proposal: Remove mod_imap from default list
On Sun, 9 Mar 2003, David Burry wrote: are we talking about removing modules entirely, or just modifying what's enabled by default? I'm only talking about what's enabled by default, and, I was really only talking about mod_imap. The comment about mod_asis was probably unwarranted. I think that there are probably people that use mod_asis. I don't think you could find anyone using mod_imap, and I don't think you could find a dozen who know what it is. - Original Message - From: Justin Erenkrantz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 8:39 PM Subject: Re: Proposal: Remove mod_imap from default list --On Sunday, March 9, 2003 6:48 PM -0500 Joshua Slive [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2. If we want to keep our contract with the user about the stable series valid, this change should go into 2.1 only. Otherwise, users doing a configure; make; make install or even a config.status could get a nasty surprise. +1. 2.1 is the right place to tweak module default values. And, it's also the place to remove modules entirely... 1.3 and 2.0 shouldn't change. -- justin -- Pilgrim, how you journey on the road you chose To find out where the winds die and where the stories go --Pilgrim (Enya - A Day Without Rain)
Re: Proposal: Remove mod_imap from default list
Rich Bowen wrote: The comment about mod_asis was probably unwarranted. I think that there are probably people that use mod_asis. We did use mod_asis on daedalus not too long ago, but don't seem to at present. I have no way of knowing how common it is. If we decide to not build it by default but then need it again on daedalus, that wouldn't be a big deal. Greg
Re: Proposal: Remove mod_imap from default list
1. This might be a good opportunity to go through the whole list and see what should be in and out of a default build. For example, mod_expires might be a good addition. Of course, I don't have time to do this myself at the moment, so feel free to ignore this comment. 2. If we want to keep our contract with the user about the stable series valid, this change should go into 2.1 only. Otherwise, users doing a configure; make; make install or even a config.status could get a nasty surprise. +1 to both. Well, so let's start with the list of current default modules to have a discussion base. These are: mod_access mod_auth mod_actions mod_cgi/mod_cgid mod_alias mod_dir mod_userdir mod_asis mod_autoindex mod_env mod_setenvif mod_imap mod_include mod_log_config mod_mime mod_negotiation mod_status I suggest to remove from default: mod_userdir, mod_asis, mod_imap and mod_status I'm not sure about mod_userdir. It's used, yes, but it need not be default. I think of mod_userdir as an additional feature. Most users don't know what to do with mod_asis or how to read mod_status. The only active installation of mod_status I've ever seen, has been at beginners first servers. Also mod_asis. I use it myself, but this need not be a default module. Those, who need it and know whow to use it, will be able to install the module. And I would add: mod_logio and mod_expire I also would like mod_deflate to become default, but there are much problems with older browsers, so I'm not sure, it would be a good idea. Kess
Re: Proposal: Remove mod_imap from default list
On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, Greg Ames wrote: Rich Bowen wrote: The comment about mod_asis was probably unwarranted. I think that there are probably people that use mod_asis. We did use mod_asis on daedalus not too long ago, but don't seem to at present. I have no way of knowing how common it is. If we decide to not build it by default but then need it again on daedalus, that wouldn't be a big deal. fgrep .asis /logs/www/weblog on daedalus shows only a few hits to http://www.apache.org/search.html.asis with a couple of them having as a referrer http://www.apache.org/search.html Hmm, looks like there's a search.html.asis that redirects to http://search.apache.org/. That can probably be simplified. locate .asis turns up a few other hits, might be good to clean those up too, then watch the error_log for hits to them for the next few days. The 404's in the error_log could probably use some attention anyways. Brian
Re: Proposal: Remove mod_imap from default list
* Astrid Keßler wrote: agreed with the removings. And I would add: mod_logio and mod_expire mod_logio... no. I think 'most' is a good (or say, better) place for it. But I would consider mod_headers as a base module. nd -- Gib' mal folgendes in die Kommandozeile ein (und einen Moment warten): net send localhost Buuuh! Na, erschreckt? -- Markus Becker in mpdsh
Re: Proposal: Remove mod_imap from default list
According to Rich Bowen: [Remove mod_imap and mod_asis from the default list] +1 ciao... -- Lars Eilebrecht- All the simple programs have been [EMAIL PROTECTED] - written, and all the good names taken.
Re: Proposal: Remove mod_imap from default list
On Sun, Mar 09, 2003 at 09:30:52PM +0100, Lars Eilebrecht wrote: According to Rich Bowen: [Remove mod_imap and mod_asis from the default list] +1 Looking back, I think I've used each module once, but only mod_asis within the last 5 or 6 years - I suppose most everyone use them even less, so I'd definetely say it is time to remove them. vh Mads Toftum -- `Darn it, who spiked my coffee with water?!' - lwall
Re: Proposal: Remove mod_imap from default list
--On Sunday, March 9, 2003 6:48 PM -0500 Joshua Slive [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2. If we want to keep our contract with the user about the stable series valid, this change should go into 2.1 only. Otherwise, users doing a configure; make; make install or even a config.status could get a nasty surprise. +1. 2.1 is the right place to tweak module default values. And, it's also the place to remove modules entirely... 1.3 and 2.0 shouldn't change. -- justin
Re: Proposal: Remove mod_imap from default list
are we talking about removing modules entirely, or just modifying what's enabled by default? Dave - Original Message - From: Justin Erenkrantz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 8:39 PM Subject: Re: Proposal: Remove mod_imap from default list --On Sunday, March 9, 2003 6:48 PM -0500 Joshua Slive [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2. If we want to keep our contract with the user about the stable series valid, this change should go into 2.1 only. Otherwise, users doing a configure; make; make install or even a config.status could get a nasty surprise. +1. 2.1 is the right place to tweak module default values. And, it's also the place to remove modules entirely... 1.3 and 2.0 shouldn't change. -- justin
