Re: Discuss [VOTE] Release Apache Log4j Transformation Tools 0.1.0
I'm not willing to do anything on any hill here either and I'd rather gel with the team consensus, I've said my bits ;-) Gary On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 4:10 PM Volkan Yazıcı wrote: > > Email archives are irrelevant for the provenance of sources; an arbitrary > tag/commit not sealed with `rel/` prefix might disappear and we will lose > the context to "what was proposed/rejected for release" . > > We don't have hundreds of releases with dozens of RCs for each. I would > rather see my `git tag -l` neatly output > > rel/0.1.0 > rel/0.1.0-rc1 > rel/0.2.0 > rel/0.2.0-rc1 > rel/0.3.0 > rel/0.3.0-rc1 > > rather than > > rel/0.1.0 > rel/0.2.0 > rel/0.3.0 > prefix-for-tag-nobody-cares-0.1.0-rc1 > prefix-for-tag-nobody-cares-0.2.0-rc1 > prefix-for-tag-nobody-cares-0.3.0-rc1 > > RCs are subject to provenance, IMO. > Wanted to share my 2 cents. > This is not a mountain I am willing to die on. > > On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 9:40 PM Gary Gregory wrote: > > > What you are proposing IMO is confusing and clutters up the release tag > > space: "rel" stands for "releases", not for "candidates for releases that > > may be completely broken" :-( > > > > It is of zero use to downstream users, and it is only being proposed out of > > the convenience because some tool does it, not because it's correct and > > best thing to do. We know what the candidates are already based on the tags > > in the emails which are forever archived. > > > > Gary > > > > On Tue, May 2, 2023, 15:03 Volkan Yazıcı wrote: > > > > > I support the idea of using `rel/`-prefixed tags both for releases and > > RCs > > > (release candidates). It matters for provenance, which is of subject for > > > RCs too, in particular, the downvoted ones. Next to that, it is > > intuitive, > > > one doesn't need to remember two different patterns to access releases > > and > > > RCs. Last but not least, these tags are created by CI, hence effortless > > > from an RMs pov. > > > > > > On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 12:09 AM Ralph Goers > > > wrote: > > > > > > > 1. As noted below you tagged with red/0.1.0-rc2. You really shouldn’t > > be > > > > using rel/ as a tag for candidates. Instead use something like > > > > tools-1.0-rc2. rel tags are treated special by Infra and are meant for > > > > ONLY the “real” release tags (in this case 1.0). > > > > > > > > 2. I checked out the tag and ran the build but it seems to hang at > > > > > > > > [INFO] --- maven-invoker-plugin:3.5.1:integration-test (default) @ > > > > log4j-transform-maven-plugin --- > > > > [INFO] Building: location/pom.xml > > > > > > > > I ended up killing it after 5 minutes. > > > > > > > > Ralph > > > > > > > > > On May 1, 2023, at 12:09 PM, Piotr P. Karwasz < > > piotr.karw...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The Apache Log4j Transformation Tools 0.1.0 release is now available > > > for > > > > voting. > > > > > > > > > > This is the first release and it contains two modules: > > > > > > > > > > * [LOG4J2-3638]: Adds a bytecode transformation tool to provide > > > > > location information without reflection. > > > > > * [LOG4J2-673]: Adds a resource transformer for the Maven Shade > > Plugin > > > > > to merge `Log4j2Plugins.dat` plugin caches. Thanks to Eduard > > > > > Gizatullin. > > > > > > > > > > Source repository: https://github.com/apache/logging-log4j-transform > > > > > Tag: rel/0.1.0-rc2 > > > > > Commit: 7bb767c1466cd9faebfeeffa8136b231bf2b6fae > > > > > Artifacts: > > > > https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/dev/logging/log4j-transform/0.1.0 > > > > > Nexus repository: > > > > > > > > https://repository.apache.org/content/repositories/orgapachelogging-1104 > > > > > CI job run: > > > > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/logging-log4j-transform/actions/runs/4853722893 > > > > > Signing key: > > > > > > > > > https://keyserver.ubuntu.com/pks/lookup?search=077e8893a6dcc33dd4a4d5b256e73ba9a0b592d0=on=index > > > > > > > > > > Please download, test, and cast your votes on the Log4j developers > > > list. > > > > > > > > > > [ ] +1, release the artifacts > > > > > [ ] -1, don't release, because... > > > > > > > > > > The vote will remain open for 72 hours All votes are welcome and we > > > > > encourage everyone to test the release, but only the Logging Services > > > > > PMC votes are officially counted. At least 3 +1 votes and more > > > > > positive than negative votes are required. > > > > > > > > > > Countdown: > > > > > > > > > https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/launch?iso=20230504T2115=4162=cursive > > > > > > > > > > Piotr > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Re: Discuss [VOTE] Release Apache Log4j Transformation Tools 0.1.0
Email archives are irrelevant for the provenance of sources; an arbitrary tag/commit not sealed with `rel/` prefix might disappear and we will lose the context to "what was proposed/rejected for release" . We don't have hundreds of releases with dozens of RCs for each. I would rather see my `git tag -l` neatly output rel/0.1.0 rel/0.1.0-rc1 rel/0.2.0 rel/0.2.0-rc1 rel/0.3.0 rel/0.3.0-rc1 rather than rel/0.1.0 rel/0.2.0 rel/0.3.0 prefix-for-tag-nobody-cares-0.1.0-rc1 prefix-for-tag-nobody-cares-0.2.0-rc1 prefix-for-tag-nobody-cares-0.3.0-rc1 RCs are subject to provenance, IMO. Wanted to share my 2 cents. This is not a mountain I am willing to die on. On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 9:40 PM Gary Gregory wrote: > What you are proposing IMO is confusing and clutters up the release tag > space: "rel" stands for "releases", not for "candidates for releases that > may be completely broken" :-( > > It is of zero use to downstream users, and it is only being proposed out of > the convenience because some tool does it, not because it's correct and > best thing to do. We know what the candidates are already based on the tags > in the emails which are forever archived. > > Gary > > On Tue, May 2, 2023, 15:03 Volkan Yazıcı wrote: > > > I support the idea of using `rel/`-prefixed tags both for releases and > RCs > > (release candidates). It matters for provenance, which is of subject for > > RCs too, in particular, the downvoted ones. Next to that, it is > intuitive, > > one doesn't need to remember two different patterns to access releases > and > > RCs. Last but not least, these tags are created by CI, hence effortless > > from an RMs pov. > > > > On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 12:09 AM Ralph Goers > > wrote: > > > > > 1. As noted below you tagged with red/0.1.0-rc2. You really shouldn’t > be > > > using rel/ as a tag for candidates. Instead use something like > > > tools-1.0-rc2. rel tags are treated special by Infra and are meant for > > > ONLY the “real” release tags (in this case 1.0). > > > > > > 2. I checked out the tag and ran the build but it seems to hang at > > > > > > [INFO] --- maven-invoker-plugin:3.5.1:integration-test (default) @ > > > log4j-transform-maven-plugin --- > > > [INFO] Building: location/pom.xml > > > > > > I ended up killing it after 5 minutes. > > > > > > Ralph > > > > > > > On May 1, 2023, at 12:09 PM, Piotr P. Karwasz < > piotr.karw...@gmail.com > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > The Apache Log4j Transformation Tools 0.1.0 release is now available > > for > > > voting. > > > > > > > > This is the first release and it contains two modules: > > > > > > > > * [LOG4J2-3638]: Adds a bytecode transformation tool to provide > > > > location information without reflection. > > > > * [LOG4J2-673]: Adds a resource transformer for the Maven Shade > Plugin > > > > to merge `Log4j2Plugins.dat` plugin caches. Thanks to Eduard > > > > Gizatullin. > > > > > > > > Source repository: https://github.com/apache/logging-log4j-transform > > > > Tag: rel/0.1.0-rc2 > > > > Commit: 7bb767c1466cd9faebfeeffa8136b231bf2b6fae > > > > Artifacts: > > > https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/dev/logging/log4j-transform/0.1.0 > > > > Nexus repository: > > > > > > https://repository.apache.org/content/repositories/orgapachelogging-1104 > > > > CI job run: > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/logging-log4j-transform/actions/runs/4853722893 > > > > Signing key: > > > > > > https://keyserver.ubuntu.com/pks/lookup?search=077e8893a6dcc33dd4a4d5b256e73ba9a0b592d0=on=index > > > > > > > > Please download, test, and cast your votes on the Log4j developers > > list. > > > > > > > > [ ] +1, release the artifacts > > > > [ ] -1, don't release, because... > > > > > > > > The vote will remain open for 72 hours All votes are welcome and we > > > > encourage everyone to test the release, but only the Logging Services > > > > PMC votes are officially counted. At least 3 +1 votes and more > > > > positive than negative votes are required. > > > > > > > > Countdown: > > > > > > https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/launch?iso=20230504T2115=4162=cursive > > > > > > > > Piotr > > > > > > > > >
Re: Discuss [VOTE] Release Apache Log4j Transformation Tools 0.1.0
What you are proposing IMO is confusing and clutters up the release tag space: "rel" stands for "releases", not for "candidates for releases that may be completely broken" :-( It is of zero use to downstream users, and it is only being proposed out of the convenience because some tool does it, not because it's correct and best thing to do. We know what the candidates are already based on the tags in the emails which are forever archived. Gary On Tue, May 2, 2023, 15:03 Volkan Yazıcı wrote: > I support the idea of using `rel/`-prefixed tags both for releases and RCs > (release candidates). It matters for provenance, which is of subject for > RCs too, in particular, the downvoted ones. Next to that, it is intuitive, > one doesn't need to remember two different patterns to access releases and > RCs. Last but not least, these tags are created by CI, hence effortless > from an RMs pov. > > On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 12:09 AM Ralph Goers > wrote: > > > 1. As noted below you tagged with red/0.1.0-rc2. You really shouldn’t be > > using rel/ as a tag for candidates. Instead use something like > > tools-1.0-rc2. rel tags are treated special by Infra and are meant for > > ONLY the “real” release tags (in this case 1.0). > > > > 2. I checked out the tag and ran the build but it seems to hang at > > > > [INFO] --- maven-invoker-plugin:3.5.1:integration-test (default) @ > > log4j-transform-maven-plugin --- > > [INFO] Building: location/pom.xml > > > > I ended up killing it after 5 minutes. > > > > Ralph > > > > > On May 1, 2023, at 12:09 PM, Piotr P. Karwasz > > > wrote: > > > > > > The Apache Log4j Transformation Tools 0.1.0 release is now available > for > > voting. > > > > > > This is the first release and it contains two modules: > > > > > > * [LOG4J2-3638]: Adds a bytecode transformation tool to provide > > > location information without reflection. > > > * [LOG4J2-673]: Adds a resource transformer for the Maven Shade Plugin > > > to merge `Log4j2Plugins.dat` plugin caches. Thanks to Eduard > > > Gizatullin. > > > > > > Source repository: https://github.com/apache/logging-log4j-transform > > > Tag: rel/0.1.0-rc2 > > > Commit: 7bb767c1466cd9faebfeeffa8136b231bf2b6fae > > > Artifacts: > > https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/dev/logging/log4j-transform/0.1.0 > > > Nexus repository: > > > > https://repository.apache.org/content/repositories/orgapachelogging-1104 > > > CI job run: > > > https://github.com/apache/logging-log4j-transform/actions/runs/4853722893 > > > Signing key: > > > https://keyserver.ubuntu.com/pks/lookup?search=077e8893a6dcc33dd4a4d5b256e73ba9a0b592d0=on=index > > > > > > Please download, test, and cast your votes on the Log4j developers > list. > > > > > > [ ] +1, release the artifacts > > > [ ] -1, don't release, because... > > > > > > The vote will remain open for 72 hours All votes are welcome and we > > > encourage everyone to test the release, but only the Logging Services > > > PMC votes are officially counted. At least 3 +1 votes and more > > > positive than negative votes are required. > > > > > > Countdown: > > > https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/launch?iso=20230504T2115=4162=cursive > > > > > > Piotr > > > > >
Re: Discuss [VOTE] Release Apache Log4j Transformation Tools 0.1.0
I support the idea of using `rel/`-prefixed tags both for releases and RCs (release candidates). It matters for provenance, which is of subject for RCs too, in particular, the downvoted ones. Next to that, it is intuitive, one doesn't need to remember two different patterns to access releases and RCs. Last but not least, these tags are created by CI, hence effortless from an RMs pov. On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 12:09 AM Ralph Goers wrote: > 1. As noted below you tagged with red/0.1.0-rc2. You really shouldn’t be > using rel/ as a tag for candidates. Instead use something like > tools-1.0-rc2. rel tags are treated special by Infra and are meant for > ONLY the “real” release tags (in this case 1.0). > > 2. I checked out the tag and ran the build but it seems to hang at > > [INFO] --- maven-invoker-plugin:3.5.1:integration-test (default) @ > log4j-transform-maven-plugin --- > [INFO] Building: location/pom.xml > > I ended up killing it after 5 minutes. > > Ralph > > > On May 1, 2023, at 12:09 PM, Piotr P. Karwasz > wrote: > > > > The Apache Log4j Transformation Tools 0.1.0 release is now available for > voting. > > > > This is the first release and it contains two modules: > > > > * [LOG4J2-3638]: Adds a bytecode transformation tool to provide > > location information without reflection. > > * [LOG4J2-673]: Adds a resource transformer for the Maven Shade Plugin > > to merge `Log4j2Plugins.dat` plugin caches. Thanks to Eduard > > Gizatullin. > > > > Source repository: https://github.com/apache/logging-log4j-transform > > Tag: rel/0.1.0-rc2 > > Commit: 7bb767c1466cd9faebfeeffa8136b231bf2b6fae > > Artifacts: > https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/dev/logging/log4j-transform/0.1.0 > > Nexus repository: > > https://repository.apache.org/content/repositories/orgapachelogging-1104 > > CI job run: > https://github.com/apache/logging-log4j-transform/actions/runs/4853722893 > > Signing key: > https://keyserver.ubuntu.com/pks/lookup?search=077e8893a6dcc33dd4a4d5b256e73ba9a0b592d0=on=index > > > > Please download, test, and cast your votes on the Log4j developers list. > > > > [ ] +1, release the artifacts > > [ ] -1, don't release, because... > > > > The vote will remain open for 72 hours All votes are welcome and we > > encourage everyone to test the release, but only the Logging Services > > PMC votes are officially counted. At least 3 +1 votes and more > > positive than negative votes are required. > > > > Countdown: > https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/launch?iso=20230504T2115=4162=cursive > > > > Piotr > >
Re: Discuss [VOTE] Release Apache Log4j Transformation Tools 0.1.0
Hi Ralph, On Tue, 2 May 2023 at 06:31, Ralph Goers wrote: > > One more issue. I see no reference to a web site containing release notes and > a download page. At a minimum the download page is required to send the > announcement email. Sorry, I forgot to give the link in the vote e-mail. The documentation is on Github and I grafted a short redirection page to Log4j's site: https://logging.staged.apache.org/log4j/2.x/log4j-transform Piotr
Re: Discuss [VOTE] Release Apache Log4j Transformation Tools 0.1.0
Hi Ralph,
On Tue, 2 May 2023 at 00:09, Ralph Goers wrote:
>
> 1. As noted below you tagged with red/0.1.0-rc2. You really shouldn’t be
> using rel/ as a tag for candidates. Instead use something like tools-1.0-rc2.
> rel tags are treated special by Infra and are meant for ONLY the “real”
> release tags (in this case 1.0).
I used the same naming scheme as `logging-log4j-tools`. In that repo
the tag is set up by the CI and starts with `rel/`:
https://github.com/apache/logging-log4j-tools/blob/master/RELEASING.adoc
IIRC this is intentional and allows us to be sure what was used by the CI.
> 2. I checked out the tag and ran the build but it seems to hang at
>
> [INFO] --- maven-invoker-plugin:3.5.1:integration-test (default) @
> log4j-transform-maven-plugin ---
> [INFO] Building: location/pom.xml
>
> I ended up killing it after 5 minutes.
These are the integration tests run by the Apache Maven Invoker
Plugin, most notably caused by the default value of the
`locationRepositoryPath` setting:
https://maven.apache.org/plugins/maven-invoker-plugin/integration-test-mojo.html
Maven recommends to keep it at its default value, which causes tons of
Maven artifacts to be redownloaded:
"It is strongly recommended to specify a path to an isolated
repository like ${project.build.directory}/it-repo. Otherwise, your
ordinary local repository will be used, potentially soiling it with
broken artifacts."
Probably we should disable the integration tests sometime in the
future, but for the first release I wanted to be sure a basic project
using the Log4j Transformation Maven plugin compiles.
Piotr
Re: Discuss [VOTE] Release Apache Log4j Transformation Tools 0.1.0
One more issue. I see no reference to a web site containing release notes and a download page. At a minimum the download page is required to send the announcement email. Ralph > On May 1, 2023, at 8:41 PM, Ralph Goers wrote: > > Regarding item 2. I found build.log and am tailing it and I see that it is > downloading a ton of dependencies for running its. I am tailing the log and > as long as it keeps moving I guess it is OK. > > Ralph > >> On May 1, 2023, at 3:09 PM, Ralph Goers wrote: >> >> 1. As noted below you tagged with red/0.1.0-rc2. You really shouldn’t be >> using rel/ as a tag for candidates. Instead use something like >> tools-1.0-rc2. rel tags are treated special by Infra and are meant for ONLY >> the “real” release tags (in this case 1.0). >> >> 2. I checked out the tag and ran the build but it seems to hang at >> >> [INFO] --- maven-invoker-plugin:3.5.1:integration-test (default) @ >> log4j-transform-maven-plugin --- >> [INFO] Building: location/pom.xml >> >> I ended up killing it after 5 minutes. >> >> Ralph >> >>> On May 1, 2023, at 12:09 PM, Piotr P. Karwasz >>> wrote: >>> >>> The Apache Log4j Transformation Tools 0.1.0 release is now available for >>> voting. >>> >>> This is the first release and it contains two modules: >>> >>> * [LOG4J2-3638]: Adds a bytecode transformation tool to provide >>> location information without reflection. >>> * [LOG4J2-673]: Adds a resource transformer for the Maven Shade Plugin >>> to merge `Log4j2Plugins.dat` plugin caches. Thanks to Eduard >>> Gizatullin. >>> >>> Source repository: https://github.com/apache/logging-log4j-transform >>> Tag: rel/0.1.0-rc2 >>> Commit: 7bb767c1466cd9faebfeeffa8136b231bf2b6fae >>> Artifacts: >>> https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/dev/logging/log4j-transform/0.1.0 >>> Nexus repository: >>> https://repository.apache.org/content/repositories/orgapachelogging-1104 >>> CI job run: >>> https://github.com/apache/logging-log4j-transform/actions/runs/4853722893 >>> Signing key: >>> https://keyserver.ubuntu.com/pks/lookup?search=077e8893a6dcc33dd4a4d5b256e73ba9a0b592d0=on=index >>> >>> Please download, test, and cast your votes on the Log4j developers list. >>> >>> [ ] +1, release the artifacts >>> [ ] -1, don't release, because... >>> >>> The vote will remain open for 72 hours All votes are welcome and we >>> encourage everyone to test the release, but only the Logging Services >>> PMC votes are officially counted. At least 3 +1 votes and more >>> positive than negative votes are required. >>> >>> Countdown: >>> https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/launch?iso=20230504T2115=4162=cursive >>> >>> Piotr >> >
Re: Discuss [VOTE] Release Apache Log4j Transformation Tools 0.1.0
Regarding item 2. I found build.log and am tailing it and I see that it is downloading a ton of dependencies for running its. I am tailing the log and as long as it keeps moving I guess it is OK. Ralph > On May 1, 2023, at 3:09 PM, Ralph Goers wrote: > > 1. As noted below you tagged with red/0.1.0-rc2. You really shouldn’t be > using rel/ as a tag for candidates. Instead use something like tools-1.0-rc2. > rel tags are treated special by Infra and are meant for ONLY the “real” > release tags (in this case 1.0). > > 2. I checked out the tag and ran the build but it seems to hang at > > [INFO] --- maven-invoker-plugin:3.5.1:integration-test (default) @ > log4j-transform-maven-plugin --- > [INFO] Building: location/pom.xml > > I ended up killing it after 5 minutes. > > Ralph > >> On May 1, 2023, at 12:09 PM, Piotr P. Karwasz >> wrote: >> >> The Apache Log4j Transformation Tools 0.1.0 release is now available for >> voting. >> >> This is the first release and it contains two modules: >> >> * [LOG4J2-3638]: Adds a bytecode transformation tool to provide >> location information without reflection. >> * [LOG4J2-673]: Adds a resource transformer for the Maven Shade Plugin >> to merge `Log4j2Plugins.dat` plugin caches. Thanks to Eduard >> Gizatullin. >> >> Source repository: https://github.com/apache/logging-log4j-transform >> Tag: rel/0.1.0-rc2 >> Commit: 7bb767c1466cd9faebfeeffa8136b231bf2b6fae >> Artifacts: >> https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/dev/logging/log4j-transform/0.1.0 >> Nexus repository: >> https://repository.apache.org/content/repositories/orgapachelogging-1104 >> CI job run: >> https://github.com/apache/logging-log4j-transform/actions/runs/4853722893 >> Signing key: >> https://keyserver.ubuntu.com/pks/lookup?search=077e8893a6dcc33dd4a4d5b256e73ba9a0b592d0=on=index >> >> Please download, test, and cast your votes on the Log4j developers list. >> >> [ ] +1, release the artifacts >> [ ] -1, don't release, because... >> >> The vote will remain open for 72 hours All votes are welcome and we >> encourage everyone to test the release, but only the Logging Services >> PMC votes are officially counted. At least 3 +1 votes and more >> positive than negative votes are required. >> >> Countdown: >> https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/launch?iso=20230504T2115=4162=cursive >> >> Piotr >
Re: Discuss [VOTE] Release Apache Log4j Transformation Tools 0.1.0
To refine Ralph's point, once the vote passes, you create the rel/ tag which should point to the SAME commit as the successful RC tag. Gary On Mon, May 1, 2023, 18:09 Ralph Goers wrote: > 1. As noted below you tagged with red/0.1.0-rc2. You really shouldn’t be > using rel/ as a tag for candidates. Instead use something like > tools-1.0-rc2. rel tags are treated special by Infra and are meant for > ONLY the “real” release tags (in this case 1.0). > > 2. I checked out the tag and ran the build but it seems to hang at > > [INFO] --- maven-invoker-plugin:3.5.1:integration-test (default) @ > log4j-transform-maven-plugin --- > [INFO] Building: location/pom.xml > > I ended up killing it after 5 minutes. > > Ralph > > > On May 1, 2023, at 12:09 PM, Piotr P. Karwasz > wrote: > > > > The Apache Log4j Transformation Tools 0.1.0 release is now available for > voting. > > > > This is the first release and it contains two modules: > > > > * [LOG4J2-3638]: Adds a bytecode transformation tool to provide > > location information without reflection. > > * [LOG4J2-673]: Adds a resource transformer for the Maven Shade Plugin > > to merge `Log4j2Plugins.dat` plugin caches. Thanks to Eduard > > Gizatullin. > > > > Source repository: https://github.com/apache/logging-log4j-transform > > Tag: rel/0.1.0-rc2 > > Commit: 7bb767c1466cd9faebfeeffa8136b231bf2b6fae > > Artifacts: > https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/dev/logging/log4j-transform/0.1.0 > > Nexus repository: > > https://repository.apache.org/content/repositories/orgapachelogging-1104 > > CI job run: > https://github.com/apache/logging-log4j-transform/actions/runs/4853722893 > > Signing key: > https://keyserver.ubuntu.com/pks/lookup?search=077e8893a6dcc33dd4a4d5b256e73ba9a0b592d0=on=index > > > > Please download, test, and cast your votes on the Log4j developers list. > > > > [ ] +1, release the artifacts > > [ ] -1, don't release, because... > > > > The vote will remain open for 72 hours All votes are welcome and we > > encourage everyone to test the release, but only the Logging Services > > PMC votes are officially counted. At least 3 +1 votes and more > > positive than negative votes are required. > > > > Countdown: > https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/launch?iso=20230504T2115=4162=cursive > > > > Piotr > >
