date:20151029


Marcus wrote:

Gavin will have a look for the problem. We will go on tomorrow.


The site builds correctly now:
https://ci.apache.org/builders/ooo-site-site-staging

but I haven't checked if all your commits were properly applied (the 
ones to the Italian pages were not applied until I made further updates).


Note that for urgent Infra issues you can open http://infra.chat/ and 
Infra is usually very friendly there.


Regards,
  Andrea.

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Re: Is AOO 4.1.2 notably faster?

2015-10-29 Thread Pedro Giffuni

Thanks for the feedback Francis,

I looked a bit into the MSVC documentation and it appears their calloc()
uses malloc() internally. It is likely that there are subtle compatibility
reasons for them to avoid some tweaks that linux and other systems do.

Maybe using calloc has secondary long-term effects on linux
or other platforms. At least for OpenOffice, the startup time is particularly
critical so it seems good to have the OS (libc and kernel basically) be
aggressive in this type of optimizations.

TBH, the real reason for the change was not performance but security,
and it’s rather curious that while I am sure other developers spent a lot
of time optimizing the startup, they had never thought of this change
before.

Enjoy!

Pedro.


> Il giorno 28/ott/2015, alle ore 20:24, Pedro Giffuni  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> Just wondering …
> 
> Are people noticing a faster startup in AOO 4.1.2? In the BSDs we generally
> prefer to use calloc over malloc + memset when it makes sense. A relatively
> small change that I did, and was safe enough to be merged to the release,
> might have had an effect there.
> 
> It’s too easy to be biased when you make such changes so it would be
> interesting to get confirmation ;).
> 
> Pedro.


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Re: Thinking of joining OpenOffice as a developer


On 10/29/2015 8:06 AM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:

Hello;

First of all, a warm welcome to Patricia. Java developers are
particularly welcome at this stage!

Just IMHO, the C++ side of AOO is either under-control or
too-ugly-to care-about, so we would do good focus more on the
Java parts, which are also somewhat ugly but still promising.

Once you get the code to build, some things that could be looked into:

- We are using some very old Java code for things that are in modern
JDKs:
Stax is one of them .. it looks very easy to get rid of.
Apache Commons is another one (LibreOffice recently replaced it),
Rhino could be replaced with project Nashorn.

- Then there’s a lot of space for new Java development:

We could make better use of Apache Lucene and tomcat.
We could probably find uses for Apache POI
We could probably use pdfbox to import pdf (just speculating,
we have some C code for that that still needs fixes)

I am sure there is more to do, just hope that gives you some hints ;)


That gives me a starting place. I was trying to decide whether to begin 
by learning AOO building or to begin with C++ review and update.



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Re: Thinking of joining OpenOffice as a developer

2015-10-29 Thread Pedro Giffuni

Hello;

First of all, a warm welcome to Patricia. Java developers are
particularly welcome at this stage!

Just IMHO, the C++ side of AOO is either under-control or
too-ugly-to care-about, so we would do good focus more on the
Java parts, which are also somewhat ugly but still promising.

Once you get the code to build, some things that could be looked into:

- We are using some very old Java code for things that are in modern
JDKs:
Stax is one of them .. it looks very easy to get rid of.
Apache Commons is another one (LibreOffice recently replaced it),
Rhino could be replaced with project Nashorn.

- Then there’s a lot of space for new Java development:

We could make better use of Apache Lucene and tomcat.
We could probably find uses for Apache POI
We could probably use pdfbox to import pdf (just speculating,
we have some C code for that that still needs fixes)

I am sure there is more to do, just hope that gives you some hints ;)

Pedro.



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Re: Remembering Ian Lynch in 4.1.2 announcement

2015-10-29 Thread Roberto Galoppini

Absolutely.
+1

2015-10-29 15:01 GMT+01:00 Jürgen Lange :

> +1 to this idea
>
> Jürgen Lange
>
>
> Am 27.10.2015 um 23:52 schrieb Andrea Pescetti:
>
>> I was wondering whether we should remember Ian Lynch at the end of the
>> 4.1.2 Release announcement, with a sentence like
>>
>> "The OpenOffice community dedicates version 4.1.2 to the memory of Ian
>> Lynch, a member of the OpenOffice Project Management Committee and a key
>> contributor to marketing and education efforts, who passed away earlier
>> this year" [of course please adjust and fix in case]
>>
>> I have no idea on whether this is appropriate or not. I'm rather neutral
>> on the issue. Feedback welcome. Our memorial for Ian is at
>> http://www.apache.org/memorials/ian_lynch.html
>>
>> Regards,
>>   Andrea.
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
>
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Remove outdated Copyright-Approved Persons and Companies list

2015-10-29 Thread Tae Wong

The page is located at
http://www.openoffice.org/copyright/copyrightapproved.html

It won't be updated anymore after 2008/06/03.

I've attached a large text file containing the names of the
individuals and companies that are not present in credits-ooo33.html.
R. Hariram Aatreya
Peter Arnold
Jimi Arvidsson
ARX (Algorithmic Research) - Uri Resnitzky
B.P. Ashwini
Travis Athougies
Silvan Calarco c/o QiNet s.r.l.
Salvatore Cardali
Pierangelo Casarotti
Giuseppe Castagno
Mauro Catarzi
Luke Chastain
Alessandro Cattelan
China Standard Software Co. Ltd. (CS2C)
Marco Cecchetti
Leeing Chen
Chris Cheney
M.L. Chethana
King Ho Cheung
Noshre Chkhaidze
Erich Christian
Francesca Beatrice Cice
Karen Conatser
Pavel Cornej
Richard Daley
Bruce D'Arcus
Yuri Dario
Sayamindu Dasgupta
Etienne DeBoissezon
Francois Dechelle
Andrea Decorte
Jia Min Deng
Marian Diklic
B. Dinesh
Patel Mitol Dineshbhai
Berhard Dippold
Sebastian Docktor
Damien Duportal
Matthew P. Eisenbraun
J. David Eisenberg
Martin Eitzenberger
Fritz Elfert
Terry Ellison
Michael Ens
Mina Erickson
Per Eriksson
Artiom Eroshin
Christian Erpelding
Steven Evans
Fabalabs Software GmbH
Fintan Fairmichael
Ramon Garcia Fernandez
Dimitri Fernando
Pierre de Filippis
Alex Fisher
Darin Fisher
Adolfo Fitoria
Nicole M. Follet-Dunn
Mario Michele Franceschino
Peter Frandsen
David Fraser
Gisbert Friege
Bruno Gallart
Pierre André Galmes
Ryan Gammon
Pascal Garcia
Guiseppe Gastagno
Nikolay Gazbuz
Wissam Geadaa
R.R. Gerbrands
Görken Getin
Thomas Girard
Adam Golebiowski
Good Day, Inc. - Seiya Maeda, CEO
Mario Govoni
GravityZoo
Paul Gress
John David Gressett
Thomas Greve
Ariel Constenla-Haile
William Neil Hall
Alexey Harlamenkov
Bernard Haumacher
Will Heid
Regina Henschel
Gregor Herrman
Ariya Hidayat
Theresa Hinkelman
Simon Philip Hogg
Claus Michael Holm
James R. Holt
Gabriel Hurley
Henrik Hynne
Mahfuz Ibrahim
Ruben da Silva Iglesias
Infra-Resource
Intel Corp./Shane D. Wall
International Business Machines
James Isaac
Branko Ivanovic
Denis Jacquerye
Arne Jaeger
Sunil Amitkumar Janki
Amer Javaid
Andrew T. Jensen
Ricki Høgh Jensen
Mingfei Jia
Jiao Jianhua
Jiri Jindra
Sedlacek Jiri
Tomas Jirka
Yan Jun
Palanisamy K
Masahisa Kamataki
Mohammed Mamdouh Kamel
Coleman Kane
Kaspars Kazarevskis
Barrie James Kemble
Nguyen Minh Khoa
Volodymyr Khrystynych
Jung-uk Kim
Michael Kirchner
Andre Kitzing
Matthias Klose
Georg Kö
Vitezslav Kotrla
Sigrid Kronenberger
Thomas Krumbein
Jorma Kuha
G.Arun Kumar
Marek Laane
Marcus Lange
Sébastien Lanteigne
Pavel Lastovicka
Murod Latifov
Len Laughridge
Ian Craig Laurenson
Athanasios Lefteris
Ariel Lepor
Rony Liemmukda
Fong Lin
Leif Lodahl
Michel Loiseleur
Jackson Low
George Machitidze
Adrien MacNeil
K. Mahindran
Mohammed Mamdouh
John Manslow
Chris Manuh
Bernard Marcelly
Luisa Della Marina
Andranik Markosyan
Ivan Masar
Inga Matheblowski
Shane M. Mathews
Akira Matsumiya
Shaun McDonald
James J. McKenzie
Miroslav Merényi
Volker Merschmann
Djapparova Meruert
Ismael Merzaq
Björn Michaelsen
Marten Mickos - mySQL AB
Marcin Milkowski
Daniel Miller
Gora Mohanty
Marko Moeller
Troels Irgens-Møller
Tadeusz Mollin (JCA - fax)
Leo Moons
Raimundo Santos Moura
Juraj Šarinay
Leo Mullins
MultioRacio Ltd (Miklos Banai for)
Daniel Naber
Hiroyuki Nakaji
Yujiro Nakamura
Fernando Nappo
Kasper Baltser Nørholm
Cor Nouws
O3Spaces (C.B. Hoeflake)
Maximilian Odendahl
Hiroshi Okuhara
Mahfuz Ibrahim Omer
Katsuhiro Ono
Takeshi Otsuki
David Paenson
Valentina Paggiarin
Andrzej Wytyczak-Partyka
Andreas Pauley
Pablo F. Pena IV
Mattia Penati
Pentaho - James Dixon -
Allan Juhl Petersen
Martin Pihl
Harri Pitkänen
Sébastien Plisson
Aurelien Pocheville
Gints Polis
Morten Ørris Poulsen
Paolo Pozzan
Subir Bahadur Pradhanang
Matthew W. Prazak
Propylon (Paul McKeon)
Andreas Proschofsky
Jaroslaw Jan Pyszny
Délio De Assis Quintão
Vu Do Quynh
Brian Rater
Martin Rejman
Michel Renon
Frco. Javier Rial
Michael Lee Rilee
William Robinson
Richard Rolston
Christian Romanini
Lin Rongheng
Christian Roy
rPath, Inc. (Erik W. Troan)
SP-Process SPA/Giovanni Papa
Reshat Sabiq
Tobias Sager
Amit Kumar Saha
Reiko Saito
K.S. Sampathkumar
Andrea Sanavia
Shkumbim Saneja
Bruno Sant'Anna
Kevin Scannell
Carlo Scarfoglio
Christoph Scheid
Siegfried Schilling
Felix Schnellinger (OCA)
Steven Shelton
Michael Sicotte
Clytie Ann Siddall
SIL International (Freddy Boswell)
Vito Smolej
Mox Soini
Rajesh Sola
Claus Sørensen
Fabio Souza
Djordje Stakic
Paul Stallworth
Mechtilde Stehmann
Vladimir Stefanov
Peter Steiner
Jason Stephenson
Konrad Stobiecki
Keith Roland Stribley
Muthu Subramanian K.
Lili Sun
Ethan Baggett Swint
Andrzej Szelachowski
Yoshiyuki Takeuchi
Toplica Tanaskovic
Yury Tarasievich
Uday K. Tashildar
Tim Tretyah
Andres Sebastian Rudquist Valencia
Kim Viktoriya
K. Vinoth
Dusko Vitas
Henning Vitting
Robert Wagy
James Walker
Chun Jian Wang
Funda Wang
Michel Weimerskirch
Martin Whitaker
Michelle C. Williams
Simon Wilper
David Noel Wilson
WorldLabel.com (Russell Ossendryver)
Oleg Yegorov
Yellow iAB GmbH
George Zahopoulos
Fuxin Zhang
Yue Zhang
Stefan

RE: Thinking of joining OpenOffice as a developer

Thanks, Patricia,
> -Original Message-
> From: Patricia Shanahan [mailto:p...@acm.org]
> Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2015 10:32
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Thinking of joining OpenOffice as a developer
> 
[ ... ]
> What is the best guide to building AOO on Windows 8?
> 
> I started with
> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/Building_Guide/Building_o
> n_Windows,
> but hit some issues and want to make sure I'm using the right guide.
[orcmid] 

There may be additional information.  The easiest way is to find out exactly 
what the build parameters were  for the 4.1.2 release (which should be in the 
source code archive for that release).  

Then there might be adjustments for building from the SVN trunk.

That is what I would attempt myself.  Expert developers who built the Windows 
versions can say more about what works to get a build that matches what is used 
for a distribution (and a debugging-build equivalent).


 - Dennis
> 
> -
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Dansk

2015-10-29 Thread joergenhonore

Dansk sprog i programmet hvordan gør jeg








Sendt fra Windows Mail

Re: Thinking of joining OpenOffice as a developer

2015-10-29 Thread Damjan Jovanovic

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 7:32 PM, Patricia Shanahan  wrote:

> On 10/29/2015 9:12 AM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
>
>> On 10/29/2015 8:06 AM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:
>>
>>> Hello;
>>>
>>> First of all, a warm welcome to Patricia. Java developers are
>>> particularly welcome at this stage!
>>>
>>> Just IMHO, the C++ side of AOO is either under-control or
>>> too-ugly-to care-about, so we would do good focus more on the
>>> Java parts, which are also somewhat ugly but still promising.
>>>
>>> Once you get the code to build, some things that could be looked into:
>>>
>>> - We are using some very old Java code for things that are in modern
>>> JDKs:
>>> Stax is one of them .. it looks very easy to get rid of.
>>> Apache Commons is another one (LibreOffice recently replaced it),
>>> Rhino could be replaced with project Nashorn.
>>>
>>> - Then there’s a lot of space for new Java development:
>>>
>>> We could make better use of Apache Lucene and tomcat.
>>> We could probably find uses for Apache POI
>>> We could probably use pdfbox to import pdf (just speculating,
>>> we have some C code for that that still needs fixes)
>>>
>>> I am sure there is more to do, just hope that gives you some hints ;)
>>>
>>
>> That gives me a starting place. I was trying to decide whether to begin
>> by learning AOO building or to begin with C++ review and update.
>>
>
> What is the best guide to building AOO on Windows 8?
>
> I started with
> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/Building_Guide/Building_on_Windows,
> but hit some issues and want to make sure I'm using the right guide.
>

Hi Patricia

I used this building guide on Windows:
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/Building_Guide_AOO/Step_by_step#Windows_7

If you have any problems building feel free to mail this list. Windows
doesn't always build cleanly for me either.

Oh and a big welcome to AOO. I like Apache River too btw :-).

Damjan

Re: Reporting broken download link

2015-10-29 Thread Kay Schenk

Hi--

Please use our official download page --
http://www.openoffice.org/download/

for all platform binaries. The Russian version is now currently
available from our partner, SourceForge.



On 10/29/2015 02:17 AM, Rory O'Farrell wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 04:08:11 +0300 Виктор 
> wrote:
> 
>> dont work
>>> 
>> http://archive.apache.org/dist/openoffice/4.1.2/binaries/ru/
> Apache_OpenOffice_4.1.2_Win_x86_install_ru.exe.md5
> 
> If having problems downloading Oo 4.1.2 you may need to force the
> page to refresh or else clear your browser cache.  I had the same
> problem and the forced page refresh cleared it.
> 

-- 

MzK

“The journey of a thousand miles begins
 with a single step.”
  --Lao Tzu



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Re: Thinking of joining OpenOffice as a developer


On 10/29/2015 9:12 AM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:

On 10/29/2015 8:06 AM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:

Hello;

First of all, a warm welcome to Patricia. Java developers are
particularly welcome at this stage!

Just IMHO, the C++ side of AOO is either under-control or
too-ugly-to care-about, so we would do good focus more on the
Java parts, which are also somewhat ugly but still promising.

Once you get the code to build, some things that could be looked into:

- We are using some very old Java code for things that are in modern
JDKs:
Stax is one of them .. it looks very easy to get rid of.
Apache Commons is another one (LibreOffice recently replaced it),
Rhino could be replaced with project Nashorn.

- Then there’s a lot of space for new Java development:

We could make better use of Apache Lucene and tomcat.
We could probably find uses for Apache POI
We could probably use pdfbox to import pdf (just speculating,
we have some C code for that that still needs fixes)

I am sure there is more to do, just hope that gives you some hints ;)


That gives me a starting place. I was trying to decide whether to begin
by learning AOO building or to begin with C++ review and update.


What is the best guide to building AOO on Windows 8?

I started with 
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/Building_Guide/Building_on_Windows, 
but hit some issues and want to make sure I'm using the right guide.


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Re: University student looking for experience in contributing to Open Office.

2015-10-29 Thread Damjan Jovanovic

On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 2:27 PM, #PATHANGI JANARDHANAN JATINSHRAVAN# <
jatinshr...@e.ntu.edu.sg> wrote:

> Hi,
> As I have said previously, I am a 3rd year university student. I have more
> than 2 years experience with Java, C and Python and brief experience with
> C++ (although I believe I can pick up fairly easily). I also have very good
> knowledge of git and agile methodology and have done an internship at
> PayPal as a software engineer intern, where I used these technologies
> extensively.  I need to contribute to an open source project of my choice
> for the next semester (ending in May 2016) and I would like to start now
> itself, to get familiar quickly. I picked Open Office since it is something
> I use daily (almost) and would like to contribute to. I am hoping to
> contribute to the Open Office codebase itself with new features, bug fixes,
> refactoring etc. I can contribute around 10-12 hours a week, and maybe more
> if there is a critical deadline to be met.
>
> I have successfully built OpenOffice on Mac OS X 10.10 (Yosemite) with the
> following output at the end of the build process
>
> ***
>
> Successful packaging process!
>
> ***
>
> copying log file to
> /Users/jatin1/repos/asf/openoffice/main/instsetoo_native/
> unxmaccx.pro/Apache_OpenOffice_SDK/dmg/install/log/log_AOO420_en-US.log
>
> stopping log at Tue Oct 27 22:32:31 2015
>
>
> Multiprocessing build is finished
>
> Maximal number of processes run: 2
>
>
>
>
> As for my development environment, I will be using CLion (by JetBrains) as
> my IDE, which comes integrated with SVN support, so I don’t have to muck
> around on the terminal.
>
>
>
> The next step I would like to take is, as instructed previously, ask if
> anyone has any open projects that they would not mind mentoring me on.
> There is ample time for me (7-8 months), so time is not a critical issue.
>
> By mentoring, I do not expect hand holding, but just very basic guidance,
> and I can give my shot at it.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jatin
>
>
>

Hi Jatin

Welcome to Apache OpenOffice. We appreciate any and all contributions. If
you are looking for some development ideas, you can do what I do: read
through Bugzilla to find something interesting to work on.

Is there anything in particular you would like to develop? I would be
willing to mentor you.

Damjan

Re: [QUESTION] Usability of Non-Optional Java Dependencies

2015-10-29 Thread Rory O'Farrell

On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 10:44:52 -0700
"Dennis E. Hamilton"  wrote:

> The Java dependency problem keeps coming up buried in other threads.  I am 
> redirecting the most recent case so we can put light on this situation.
> 
> Before the dependencies on Java are increased/improved, I think there is a 
> crucial usability matter.
> 
>  1. Currently users are trap-doored by exercising a feature or dialog that 
> suddenly raises a Java dependency, sometimes for which there is no escape 
> other than finding a way to shut down AOO that is not a normally-required 
> skill.
> 
>  2. The fact that full functioning of AOO is buried in the system 
> requirements in a way that users can easily overlook (or never examine) is a 
> problem.  We can fix that page, even providing (or linking to) specific 
> details of what the dependencies are. That would be useful so developers and 
> power-users have the details.  However, the system requirements are probably 
> not read by most who download the software (based on over 40 million 
> downloads of 4.1.1, overwhelmingly on systems designed for casual users).
> 
>  3. If the installer required presence of Java, that would be a clear 
> indication that it is required for operation.  It would also be helpful if 
> the installer provided an usable link for installing a workable Java if one 
> is not present.
> 
>  4. If the presence of Java is indeed optional, and the user does not have it 
> or elects not to use it, AOO should not even offer functions for which Java 
> is required.  That is another way to improve the usability and at least avoid 
> users falling through trap-doors.
> 
>  5. Shouldn't we do this better?  Or are we to decree that AOO is only 
> intended for power-users who have strong skills with regard to managing their 
> configurations, managing the install of dependencies, trouble-shooting and 
> being able to work around the not-dependable way things work now?  
> 
> Three paths come to mind.
> 
>  A. Remove the Java dependencies.
> 
>  B. Adjust the Java dependencies,
> 1. So that the dependencies are clear and the situation around failures 
> to find a suitable JRE is made workable for casual users.  This could involve 
> the above (2-4) remedies.
> 2. Only then consider increasing the dependencies on Java for 
> full-function operation in some controllable way.  
> 
>  C. Make AOO a Java application that has C++ components, rather than the 
> reverse.
> 
> These are all serious.  Probably on the way to either A or C, one must 
> address B.
> 
> We also need to consider what the project's capacity for any of these cases 
> happens to be.  
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
>  - Dennis
> 
> PS: There is a bigger question about platform presence in here.  There are 
> distributions for which Java dependency is not particularly attractive and we 
> may be cutting ourselves off from those.  That might not matter if we are 
> talking about the small percentage of the downloads that are for neither 
> Windows nor Macintosh desktop PCs.

I am aware that there is an undercurrent among computer users against Java 
because of various security holes - whether real or generated by media 
paranoia.  My reaction would be that the basic (i.e., unextended program) 
should be written in as secure a language as possible and extensions (which are 
an optional install) written as suits their author. 

  
 
> 
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Pedro Giffuni [mailto:p...@apache.org]
> > Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2015 08:07
> > To: Apache OO 
> > Subject: Re: Thinking of joining OpenOffice as a developer
> > 
> > Hello;
> > 
> > First of all, a warm welcome to Patricia. Java developers are
> > particularly welcome at this stage!
> > 
> > Just IMHO, the C++ side of AOO is either under-control or
> > too-ugly-to care-about, so we would do good focus more on the
> > Java parts, which are also somewhat ugly but still promising.
> [ ... ]
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
> 
> 


-- 
Rory O'Farrell 

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RE: Remove outdated Copyright-Approved Persons and Companies list

Thank you for bringing this to the attention of the Apache OpenOffice project.

The  list is from 
the site as it existed before Apache OpenOffice was established.  It specifies 
facts that are not under the independent control of the Apache OpenOffice 
project.  

For the list to be updated or replaced, it needs to come from some authority 
that can assert who provided Copyright agreements between when the list was 
last updated and when the Apache Software Foundation received the Software 
Grant Agreement from Oracle Corporation.

If you have further information on those copyright agreements and an 
authoritative source for the information, please communicate that to 
priv...@openoffice.apache.org where such matters can be discussed with the 
Project Management Committee.

Are you talking about credits, not copyright agreements, and how contributors 
to the project are acknowledged? 

There is also difficulty in retroactively acknowledging participants in 
releases not made by the Apache OpenOffice project itself.  OpenOffice.org 3.3 
is not a product of Apache OpenOffice.  If there are errors, that might be good 
to discuss on priv...@openoffice.apache.org also. 

 - Dennis

> -Original Message-
> From: Tae Wong [mailto:seotaewon...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2015 09:12
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Remove outdated Copyright-Approved Persons and Companies list
> 
> The page is located at
> http://www.openoffice.org/copyright/copyrightapproved.html
> 
> It won't be updated anymore after 2008/06/03.
> 
> I've attached a large text file containing the names of the
> individuals and companies that are not present in credits-ooo33.html.


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Wrong version number on the German download page

2015-10-29 Thread Jörg Schmidt

Hello,

on the German download page (http://www.openoffice.org/de/downloads/index.html) 
is to display the version number (in the right list box) still 4.1.1. 

(only the display of the version number is defect, the download is correct 
4.1.2)


Can someone please correct?


Greetings,
Jörg
.


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Re: Pending release tasks


Am 10/29/2015 01:42 PM, schrieb Andrea Pescetti:

Marcus wrote:

Gavin will have a look for the problem. We will go on tomorrow.


The site builds correctly now:
https://ci.apache.org/builders/ooo-site-site-staging

but I haven't checked if all your commits were properly applied (the
ones to the Italian pages were not applied until I made further updates).

Note that for urgent Infra issues you can open http://infra.chat/ and
Infra is usually very friendly there.


yes, that's what I've used yesterday.

Now everything should be fine and showing/pointing to 4.1.2.

Marcus


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Re: [QUESTION] Usability of Non-Optional Java Dependencies

2015-10-29 Thread Simon Phipps

One more factor to consider is that the official Java installer promoted by
Oracle tries really hard to trick the end-user into installing
adware/spyware at the same time. We used to avoid this in the Sun installer
by bundling Java, but having it as an external dependency for new AOO users
means they face the challenge not only of finding and installing Java but
avoiding the malware as they do so.

I'd say this was a really big negative for a dependency on official Java.
It's not a problem on Linux where there is usually an OpenJDK bundle
available, but it's a huge negative on Windows.

S.


On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 5:44 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton 
wrote:

> The Java dependency problem keeps coming up buried in other threads.  I am
> redirecting the most recent case so we can put light on this situation.
>
> Before the dependencies on Java are increased/improved, I think there is a
> crucial usability matter.
>
>  1. Currently users are trap-doored by exercising a feature or dialog that
> suddenly raises a Java dependency, sometimes for which there is no escape
> other than finding a way to shut down AOO that is not a normally-required
> skill.
>
>  2. The fact that full functioning of AOO is buried in the system
> requirements in a way that users can easily overlook (or never examine) is
> a problem.  We can fix that page, even providing (or linking to) specific
> details of what the dependencies are. That would be useful so developers
> and power-users have the details.  However, the system requirements are
> probably not read by most who download the software (based on over 40
> million downloads of 4.1.1, overwhelmingly on systems designed for casual
> users).
>
>  3. If the installer required presence of Java, that would be a clear
> indication that it is required for operation.  It would also be helpful if
> the installer provided an usable link for installing a workable Java if one
> is not present.
>
>  4. If the presence of Java is indeed optional, and the user does not have
> it or elects not to use it, AOO should not even offer functions for which
> Java is required.  That is another way to improve the usability and at
> least avoid users falling through trap-doors.
>
>  5. Shouldn't we do this better?  Or are we to decree that AOO is only
> intended for power-users who have strong skills with regard to managing
> their configurations, managing the install of dependencies,
> trouble-shooting and being able to work around the not-dependable way
> things work now?
>
> Three paths come to mind.
>
>  A. Remove the Java dependencies.
>
>  B. Adjust the Java dependencies,
> 1. So that the dependencies are clear and the situation around
> failures to find a suitable JRE is made workable for casual users.  This
> could involve the above (2-4) remedies.
> 2. Only then consider increasing the dependencies on Java for
> full-function operation in some controllable way.
>
>  C. Make AOO a Java application that has C++ components, rather than the
> reverse.
>
> These are all serious.  Probably on the way to either A or C, one must
> address B.
>
> We also need to consider what the project's capacity for any of these
> cases happens to be.
>
> Thoughts?
>
>  - Dennis
>
> PS: There is a bigger question about platform presence in here.  There are
> distributions for which Java dependency is not particularly attractive and
> we may be cutting ourselves off from those.  That might not matter if we
> are talking about the small percentage of the downloads that are for
> neither Windows nor Macintosh desktop PCs.
>
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Pedro Giffuni [mailto:p...@apache.org]
> > Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2015 08:07
> > To: Apache OO 
> > Subject: Re: Thinking of joining OpenOffice as a developer
> >
> > Hello;
> >
> > First of all, a warm welcome to Patricia. Java developers are
> > particularly welcome at this stage!
> >
> > Just IMHO, the C++ side of AOO is either under-control or
> > too-ugly-to care-about, so we would do good focus more on the
> > Java parts, which are also somewhat ugly but still promising.
> [ ... ]
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>
>


-- 
*Simon Phipps*  http://webmink.com
*Office:* +1 (415) 683-7660 *or* +44 (238) 098 7027
*Mobile*:  +44 774 776 2816 *or Telegram *

Re: [QUESTION] Usability of Non-Optional Java Dependencies

2015-10-29 Thread Greg Bullock

Would you confirm that, about the adware/spyware tricks?  If confirmed, 
that would definitely interest me.


Perhaps it's just my obliviousness or rapidly fading memory, but I don't 
recall ever seeing a trap on Oracle's Java download trying to install 
adware/spyware.


http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/jre8-downloads-2133155.html

I've used Java (JRE, JDK and Netbeans) on Windows actively for 5+ years, 
and occasionally for longer than that, and I just don't recall seeing a 
malware trick there.  I see them on other sites for other software, but 
not there for Java.


Greg



On 10/29/2015 11:44 AM, Simon Phipps wrote:

One more factor to consider is that the official Java installer promoted by
Oracle tries really hard to trick the end-user into installing
adware/spyware at the same time. We used to avoid this in the Sun installer
by bundling Java, but having it as an external dependency for new AOO users
means they face the challenge not only of finding and installing Java but
avoiding the malware as they do so.

I'd say this was a really big negative for a dependency on official Java.
It's not a problem on Linux where there is usually an OpenJDK bundle
available, but it's a huge negative on Windows.

S.


On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 5:44 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton 
wrote:


The Java dependency problem keeps coming up buried in other threads.  I am
redirecting the most recent case so we can put light on this situation.

Before the dependencies on Java are increased/improved, I think there is a
crucial usability matter.

  1. Currently users are trap-doored by exercising a feature or dialog that
suddenly raises a Java dependency, sometimes for which there is no escape
other than finding a way to shut down AOO that is not a normally-required
skill.

  2. The fact that full functioning of AOO is buried in the system
requirements in a way that users can easily overlook (or never examine) is
a problem.  We can fix that page, even providing (or linking to) specific
details of what the dependencies are. That would be useful so developers
and power-users have the details.  However, the system requirements are
probably not read by most who download the software (based on over 40
million downloads of 4.1.1, overwhelmingly on systems designed for casual
users).

  3. If the installer required presence of Java, that would be a clear
indication that it is required for operation.  It would also be helpful if
the installer provided an usable link for installing a workable Java if one
is not present.

  4. If the presence of Java is indeed optional, and the user does not have
it or elects not to use it, AOO should not even offer functions for which
Java is required.  That is another way to improve the usability and at
least avoid users falling through trap-doors.

  5. Shouldn't we do this better?  Or are we to decree that AOO is only
intended for power-users who have strong skills with regard to managing
their configurations, managing the install of dependencies,
trouble-shooting and being able to work around the not-dependable way
things work now?

Three paths come to mind.

  A. Remove the Java dependencies.

  B. Adjust the Java dependencies,
 1. So that the dependencies are clear and the situation around
failures to find a suitable JRE is made workable for casual users.  This
could involve the above (2-4) remedies.
 2. Only then consider increasing the dependencies on Java for
full-function operation in some controllable way.

  C. Make AOO a Java application that has C++ components, rather than the
reverse.

These are all serious.  Probably on the way to either A or C, one must
address B.

We also need to consider what the project's capacity for any of these
cases happens to be.

Thoughts?

  - Dennis

PS: There is a bigger question about platform presence in here.  There are
distributions for which Java dependency is not particularly attractive and
we may be cutting ourselves off from those.  That might not matter if we
are talking about the small percentage of the downloads that are for
neither Windows nor Macintosh desktop PCs.




-Original Message-
From: Pedro Giffuni [mailto:p...@apache.org]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2015 08:07
To: Apache OO 
Subject: Re: Thinking of joining OpenOffice as a developer

Hello;

First of all, a warm welcome to Patricia. Java developers are
particularly welcome at this stage!

Just IMHO, the C++ side of AOO is either under-control or
too-ugly-to care-about, so we would do good focus more on the
Java parts, which are also somewhat ugly but still promising.

[ ... ]


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--
Greg Bullock
NorthWest Research Associates
301 Webster St.
Monterey, CA  93940
(831) 582-4907
g...@nwra.com

Re: [QUESTION] Usability of Non-Optional Java Dependencies

In that case, the basic program should definitely be in Java, to avoid 
buffer overflows, undefined operations, and pointer arithmetic.


The Java security issues are associated with attempts to run untrusted 
code in various controlled environments. That includes applets, as well 
as well as dynamically loaded code in applications. My current attitude 
is that I don't want any code I don't trust running on a system I care 
about.


On 10/29/2015 11:13 AM, Rory O'Farrell wrote:
...

I am aware that there is an undercurrent among computer users against
Java because of various security holes - whether real or generated by
media paranoia.  My reaction would be that the basic (i.e.,
unextended program) should be written in as secure a language as
possible and extensions (which are an optional install) written as
suits their author.

...

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Re: Wrong version number on the German download page


Am 10/29/2015 07:49 PM, schrieb Jörg Schmidt:

on the German download page (http://www.openoffice.org/de/downloads/index.html) 
is to display the version number (in the right list box) still 4.1.1.

(only the display of the version number is defect, the download is correct 
4.1.2)


all is fine now, please try again.

Marcus


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review requested: [Issue 126612] Update notification for 4.1.2 : [Attachment 85086] Proposed /openoffice/updates-site/trunk/aoo411/check.Update

2015-10-29 Thread bugzilla

Kay  has asked  for review:
Issue 126612: Update notification for 4.1.2
https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126612

Attachment 85086: Proposed /openoffice/updates-site/trunk/aoo411/check.Update
https://bz.apache.org/ooo/attachment.cgi?id=85086=edit

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Re: [QUESTION] Usability of Non-Optional Java Dependencies

See, for example, 
http://superuser.com/questions/549028/how-can-i-prevent-ask-com-toolbar-from-being-installed-every-time-java-is-update


I just did a simple default install of the current JRE, and it did not 
offer Ask.com, so maybe Oracle has seen the error of their ways.


On 10/29/2015 11:57 AM, Greg Bullock wrote:

Would you confirm that, about the adware/spyware tricks?  If confirmed,
that would definitely interest me.

Perhaps it's just my obliviousness or rapidly fading memory, but I don't
recall ever seeing a trap on Oracle's Java download trying to install
adware/spyware.

http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/jre8-downloads-2133155.html


I've used Java (JRE, JDK and Netbeans) on Windows actively for 5+ years,
and occasionally for longer than that, and I just don't recall seeing a
malware trick there.  I see them on other sites for other software, but
not there for Java.

Greg



On 10/29/2015 11:44 AM, Simon Phipps wrote:

One more factor to consider is that the official Java installer
promoted by
Oracle tries really hard to trick the end-user into installing
adware/spyware at the same time. We used to avoid this in the Sun
installer
by bundling Java, but having it as an external dependency for new AOO
users
means they face the challenge not only of finding and installing Java but
avoiding the malware as they do so.

I'd say this was a really big negative for a dependency on official Java.
It's not a problem on Linux where there is usually an OpenJDK bundle
available, but it's a huge negative on Windows.

S.


On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 5:44 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton 
wrote:


The Java dependency problem keeps coming up buried in other threads.
I am
redirecting the most recent case so we can put light on this situation.

Before the dependencies on Java are increased/improved, I think there
is a
crucial usability matter.

  1. Currently users are trap-doored by exercising a feature or
dialog that
suddenly raises a Java dependency, sometimes for which there is no
escape
other than finding a way to shut down AOO that is not a
normally-required
skill.

  2. The fact that full functioning of AOO is buried in the system
requirements in a way that users can easily overlook (or never
examine) is
a problem.  We can fix that page, even providing (or linking to)
specific
details of what the dependencies are. That would be useful so developers
and power-users have the details.  However, the system requirements are
probably not read by most who download the software (based on over 40
million downloads of 4.1.1, overwhelmingly on systems designed for
casual
users).

  3. If the installer required presence of Java, that would be a clear
indication that it is required for operation.  It would also be
helpful if
the installer provided an usable link for installing a workable Java
if one
is not present.

  4. If the presence of Java is indeed optional, and the user does
not have
it or elects not to use it, AOO should not even offer functions for
which
Java is required.  That is another way to improve the usability and at
least avoid users falling through trap-doors.

  5. Shouldn't we do this better?  Or are we to decree that AOO is only
intended for power-users who have strong skills with regard to managing
their configurations, managing the install of dependencies,
trouble-shooting and being able to work around the not-dependable way
things work now?

Three paths come to mind.

  A. Remove the Java dependencies.

  B. Adjust the Java dependencies,
 1. So that the dependencies are clear and the situation around
failures to find a suitable JRE is made workable for casual users.  This
could involve the above (2-4) remedies.
 2. Only then consider increasing the dependencies on Java for
full-function operation in some controllable way.

  C. Make AOO a Java application that has C++ components, rather than
the
reverse.

These are all serious.  Probably on the way to either A or C, one must
address B.

We also need to consider what the project's capacity for any of these
cases happens to be.

Thoughts?

  - Dennis

PS: There is a bigger question about platform presence in here.
There are
distributions for which Java dependency is not particularly
attractive and
we may be cutting ourselves off from those.  That might not matter if we
are talking about the small percentage of the downloads that are for
neither Windows nor Macintosh desktop PCs.




-Original Message-
From: Pedro Giffuni [mailto:p...@apache.org]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2015 08:07
To: Apache OO 
Subject: Re: Thinking of joining OpenOffice as a developer

Hello;

First of all, a warm welcome to Patricia. Java developers are
particularly welcome at this stage!

Just IMHO, the C++ side of AOO is either under-control or
too-ugly-to care-about, so we would do good focus more on the
Java parts, which are also somewhat ugly but still promising.

[ ... ]

Re: [QUESTION] Usability of Non-Optional Java Dependencies

For AOO to achieve its full potential it must be possible to use it 
while assuming "Java" refers to an island one of whose exports is coffee 
beans.


However, in normal home and office environments, the people doing 
installation are often more technically knowledgeable, and more likely 
to RTFM if they hit a problem, than the end users. For example, many of 
my friends know someone who is good at installing software who they ask 
for help. Small offices may bring in a support service. Larger 
businesses have a department that keeps office workstations up to date.


A reasonable first step would be to ensure that when the installation 
finishes successfully AOO is ready for use by any end user with minimal 
keyboard and office skills.





On 10/29/2015 10:44 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:

The Java dependency problem keeps coming up buried in other threads.
I am redirecting the most recent case so we can put light on this
situation.

Before the dependencies on Java are increased/improved, I think there
is a crucial usability matter.

1. Currently users are trap-doored by exercising a feature or dialog
that suddenly raises a Java dependency, sometimes for which there is
no escape other than finding a way to shut down AOO that is not a
normally-required skill.

2. The fact that full functioning of AOO is buried in the system
requirements in a way that users can easily overlook (or never
examine) is a problem.  We can fix that page, even providing (or
linking to) specific details of what the dependencies are. That would
be useful so developers and power-users have the details.  However,
the system requirements are probably not read by most who download
the software (based on over 40 million downloads of 4.1.1,
overwhelmingly on systems designed for casual users).

3. If the installer required presence of Java, that would be a clear
indication that it is required for operation.  It would also be
helpful if the installer provided an usable link for installing a
workable Java if one is not present.

4. If the presence of Java is indeed optional, and the user does not
have it or elects not to use it, AOO should not even offer functions
for which Java is required.  That is another way to improve the
usability and at least avoid users falling through trap-doors.

5. Shouldn't we do this better?  Or are we to decree that AOO is only
intended for power-users who have strong skills with regard to
managing their configurations, managing the install of dependencies,
trouble-shooting and being able to work around the not-dependable way
things work now?

Three paths come to mind.

A. Remove the Java dependencies.

B. Adjust the Java dependencies, 1. So that the dependencies are
clear and the situation around failures to find a suitable JRE is
made workable for casual users.  This could involve the above (2-4)
remedies. 2. Only then consider increasing the dependencies on Java
for full-function operation in some controllable way.

C. Make AOO a Java application that has C++ components, rather than
the reverse.

These are all serious.  Probably on the way to either A or C, one
must address B.

We also need to consider what the project's capacity for any of these
cases happens to be.

Thoughts?

- Dennis

PS: There is a bigger question about platform presence in here.
There are distributions for which Java dependency is not particularly
attractive and we may be cutting ourselves off from those.  That
might not matter if we are talking about the small percentage of the
downloads that are for neither Windows nor Macintosh desktop PCs.




-Original Message- From: Pedro Giffuni
[mailto:p...@apache.org] Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2015 08:07 To:
Apache OO  Subject: Re: Thinking of
joining OpenOffice as a developer

Hello;

First of all, a warm welcome to Patricia. Java developers are
particularly welcome at this stage!

Just IMHO, the C++ side of AOO is either under-control or
too-ugly-to care-about, so we would do good focus more on the Java
parts, which are also somewhat ugly but still promising.

[ ... ]


-



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Re: [QUESTION] Usability of Non-Optional Java Dependencies

2015-10-29 Thread Damjan Jovanovic

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 7:44 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton 
wrote:

> The Java dependency problem keeps coming up buried in other threads.  I am
> redirecting the most recent case so we can put light on this situation.
>
> Before the dependencies on Java are increased/improved, I think there is a
> crucial usability matter.
>
>  1. Currently users are trap-doored by exercising a feature or dialog that
> suddenly raises a Java dependency, sometimes for which there is no escape
> other than finding a way to shut down AOO that is not a normally-required
> skill.
>

Any dialogs that require AOO shutdown are a serious problem, and should be
fixed regardless of what we decide with Java.


>  2. The fact that full functioning of AOO is buried in the system
> requirements in a way that users can easily overlook (or never examine) is
> a problem.  We can fix that page, even providing (or linking to) specific
> details of what the dependencies are. That would be useful so developers
> and power-users have the details.  However, the system requirements are
> probably not read by most who download the software (based on over 40
> million downloads of 4.1.1, overwhelmingly on systems designed for casual
> users).
>
>  3. If the installer required presence of Java, that would be a clear
> indication that it is required for operation.  It would also be helpful if
> the installer provided an usable link for installing a workable Java if one
> is not present.
>
>  4. If the presence of Java is indeed optional, and the user does not have
> it or elects not to use it, AOO should not even offer functions for which
> Java is required.  That is another way to improve the usability and at
> least avoid users falling through trap-doors.
>
>  5. Shouldn't we do this better?  Or are we to decree that AOO is only
> intended for power-users who have strong skills with regard to managing
> their configurations, managing the install of dependencies,
> trouble-shooting and being able to work around the not-dependable way
> things work now?
>
> Three paths come to mind.
>
>  A. Remove the Java dependencies.
>

Impossible. JDBC drivers for example, are the lifeblood of Base.


>  B. Adjust the Java dependencies,
> 1. So that the dependencies are clear and the situation around
> failures to find a suitable JRE is made workable for casual users.  This
> could involve the above (2-4) remedies.
> 2. Only then consider increasing the dependencies on Java for
> full-function operation in some controllable way.
>

A good step in that direction would be Win64 builds (what's needed for
those?), and helping users download AOO of the correct bitness.


>  C. Make AOO a Java application that has C++ components, rather than the
> reverse.
>
>
We could also:

D. Bundle an internal JRE with AOO that is known ahead of time to work.
This could be an OpenJDK JRE that we build, without spyware. I know we
can't distribute copyleft licensed software with AOO, but we could offer to
download and install it during installation or on first start.


> These are all serious.  Probably on the way to either A or C, one must
> address B.
>
> We also need to consider what the project's capacity for any of these
> cases happens to be.
>
> Thoughts?
>
>  - Dennis
>
> PS: There is a bigger question about platform presence in here.  There are
> distributions for which Java dependency is not particularly attractive and
> we may be cutting ourselves off from those.  That might not matter if we
> are talking about the small percentage of the downloads that are for
> neither Windows nor Macintosh desktop PCs.
>
>
LibreOffice uses Java on those distributions too.


>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Pedro Giffuni [mailto:p...@apache.org]
> > Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2015 08:07
> > To: Apache OO 
> > Subject: Re: Thinking of joining OpenOffice as a developer
> >
> > Hello;
> >
> > First of all, a warm welcome to Patricia. Java developers are
> > particularly welcome at this stage!
> >
> > Just IMHO, the C++ side of AOO is either under-control or
> > too-ugly-to care-about, so we would do good focus more on the
> > Java parts, which are also somewhat ugly but still promising.
> [ ... ]
>
>
Damjan

Re: Pending release tasks

2015-10-29 Thread Rory O'Farrell

On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 20:34:55 +0100
Marcus  wrote:

> Am 10/29/2015 12:41 AM, schrieb Marcus:
> > Am 10/28/2015 11:12 PM, schrieb Marcus:
> >> Am 10/28/2015 09:46 PM, schrieb Andrea Pescetti:
> >>> On 28/10/2015 20:00, Marcus wrote:
>  http://www.openoffice.org/download/
>  This is now serving AOO 4.1.2 as default download.
> >>>
> >>> Great, we released exactly at 20:00 as planned then!
> >>>
> >>> Announcement is now posted to the blog at
> >>> http://s.apache.org/announcing-openoffice-412
> >>> and sent to users, annou...@openoffice.apache.org and
> >>> annou...@apache.org (the latter two are moderated, so it might not show
> >>> up immediately).
> >>>
> >>> I'll spare you an extra mail. You can find the announcement text at
> >>>
> >>> http://s.apache.org/dDl
> >>>
> >>> Rory already posted the message to the Forum too.
> >>>
> >>> The main site home page
> >>> http://www.openoffice.org/
> >>> has also been updated to link to recent blog posts.
> >>>
> >>> I think this is it for today. There will be other minor edits throughout
> >>> the site and CWiki.
> >>>
>  I'll now go and update the localized dowload websites.
> >>>
> >>> Perfect, and then we will coordinate with the l10n list for other
> >>> updates.
> >>
> >> I've committed all changes but the CMS staging build is hanging in the
> >> middle - that means some languages are finished but some not yet. I've
> >> asked Infra (Jan) for help. Let's see.
> >
> > Gavin will have a look for the problem. We will go on tomorrow.
> 
> OK, the CMS build is working again.
> 
> I've hopefully fixed all websites that were broken in the middle of the 
> updates. Now al ldownloads should show and point to the 4.1.2 release.
> 
> And I think I know what went wrong:
> I've committed to fast, and not waited for finishing the staging build 
> before committing the next change.
> 
> So, even when it's a bit slow in the case of release a new version, 
> committing and waiting for finishing the staging build seems to be key.
> 
> 
> 
> Next task:
> Update the headline to 4.1.2 - mostly it's still "New: Apache OpenOffice 
> 4.1.1 released!" or similar.
> 
> Marcus

A question (from my ignorance): is there a flag that can be set on the download 
page code  that forces it to be redownloaded to the querying computer, so that 
the user does not have to refresh the page in his browser cache?

-- 
Rory O'Farrell 

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Re: [QUESTION] Usability of Non-Optional Java Dependencies


On 10/29/2015 12:20 PM, Damjan Jovanovic wrote:

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 7:44 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton 
wrote:

...

Three paths come to mind.

  A. Remove the Java dependencies.



Impossible. JDBC drivers for example, are the lifeblood of Base.



It depends on what you mean by "Impossible". For example, the existence 
of the JDBC drivers proves that it is possible to implement interfaces 
with all the capabilities of JDBC without depending on it. On the other 
hand, it may be impossible to implement the JDBC features Base needs in 
a reasonable time with the available resources.


My questions are:

1. What is the cleanest, lowest risk, way to get from here (Java 
dependent) to there (Java independent) in each area?


2. How much work would it be?

3. Does AOO have that much development effort available, and if so is it 
the best use of that effort?


If we continue with optional Java, I hope making it more convenient and 
unobtrusive for users, it is not an all-or-nothing situation. Each 
feature that is converted is another feature for non-Java users.


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Re: [QUESTION] Usability of Non-Optional Java Dependencies

2015-10-29 Thread toki

On 10/29/2015 07:20 PM, Damjan Jovanovic wrote:

>> Three paths come to mind.
>>  A. Remove the Java dependencies.
> Impossible. JDBC drivers for example, are the lifeblood of Base.

FWIW, the hardest, to the point of being impossible to replace, is the
stuff that a11y tools rely on.

jonathon

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Re: Pending release tasks


Am 10/29/2015 08:46 PM, schrieb Rory O'Farrell:

On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 20:34:55 +0100
Marcus  wrote:


Am 10/29/2015 12:41 AM, schrieb Marcus:

Am 10/28/2015 11:12 PM, schrieb Marcus:

Am 10/28/2015 09:46 PM, schrieb Andrea Pescetti:

On 28/10/2015 20:00, Marcus wrote:

http://www.openoffice.org/download/
This is now serving AOO 4.1.2 as default download.


Great, we released exactly at 20:00 as planned then!

Announcement is now posted to the blog at
http://s.apache.org/announcing-openoffice-412
and sent to users, annou...@openoffice.apache.org and
annou...@apache.org (the latter two are moderated, so it might not show
up immediately).

I'll spare you an extra mail. You can find the announcement text at

http://s.apache.org/dDl

Rory already posted the message to the Forum too.

The main site home page
http://www.openoffice.org/
has also been updated to link to recent blog posts.

I think this is it for today. There will be other minor edits throughout
the site and CWiki.


I'll now go and update the localized dowload websites.


Perfect, and then we will coordinate with the l10n list for other
updates.


I've committed all changes but the CMS staging build is hanging in the
middle - that means some languages are finished but some not yet. I've
asked Infra (Jan) for help. Let's see.


Gavin will have a look for the problem. We will go on tomorrow.


OK, the CMS build is working again.

I've hopefully fixed all websites that were broken in the middle of the
updates. Now al ldownloads should show and point to the 4.1.2 release.

And I think I know what went wrong:
I've committed to fast, and not waited for finishing the staging build
before committing the next change.

So, even when it's a bit slow in the case of release a new version,
committing and waiting for finishing the staging build seems to be key.



Next task:
Update the headline to 4.1.2 - mostly it's still "New: Apache OpenOffice
4.1.1 released!" or similar.

Marcus


A question (from my ignorance): is there a flag that can be set on the download 
page code  that forces it to be redownloaded to the querying computer, so that 
the user does not have to refresh the page in his browser cache?


good question. I'm not a super expert of frontend design but I don't 
know of any such function or possibility.


Marcus


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Re: [QUESTION] Usability of Non-Optional Java Dependencies

I checked my Java Control Panel and I have "Suppress sponsor offers when 
installing or updating Java" checked, so my install experience is not 
useful information.


I don't remember checking it, but it would be a no-brainer first time I 
saw it in the control panel, considering how I feel about the Ask.com mess.


On 10/29/2015 12:10 PM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:

See, for example,
http://superuser.com/questions/549028/how-can-i-prevent-ask-com-toolbar-from-being-installed-every-time-java-is-update


I just did a simple default install of the current JRE, and it did not
offer Ask.com, so maybe Oracle has seen the error of their ways.

On 10/29/2015 11:57 AM, Greg Bullock wrote:

Would you confirm that, about the adware/spyware tricks?  If confirmed,
that would definitely interest me.

Perhaps it's just my obliviousness or rapidly fading memory, but I don't
recall ever seeing a trap on Oracle's Java download trying to install
adware/spyware.

http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/jre8-downloads-2133155.html



I've used Java (JRE, JDK and Netbeans) on Windows actively for 5+ years,
and occasionally for longer than that, and I just don't recall seeing a
malware trick there.  I see them on other sites for other software, but
not there for Java.

Greg



On 10/29/2015 11:44 AM, Simon Phipps wrote:

One more factor to consider is that the official Java installer
promoted by
Oracle tries really hard to trick the end-user into installing
adware/spyware at the same time. We used to avoid this in the Sun
installer
by bundling Java, but having it as an external dependency for new AOO
users
means they face the challenge not only of finding and installing Java
but
avoiding the malware as they do so.

I'd say this was a really big negative for a dependency on official
Java.
It's not a problem on Linux where there is usually an OpenJDK bundle
available, but it's a huge negative on Windows.

S.


On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 5:44 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton 
wrote:


The Java dependency problem keeps coming up buried in other threads.
I am
redirecting the most recent case so we can put light on this situation.

Before the dependencies on Java are increased/improved, I think there
is a
crucial usability matter.

  1. Currently users are trap-doored by exercising a feature or
dialog that
suddenly raises a Java dependency, sometimes for which there is no
escape
other than finding a way to shut down AOO that is not a
normally-required
skill.

  2. The fact that full functioning of AOO is buried in the system
requirements in a way that users can easily overlook (or never
examine) is
a problem.  We can fix that page, even providing (or linking to)
specific
details of what the dependencies are. That would be useful so
developers
and power-users have the details.  However, the system requirements are
probably not read by most who download the software (based on over 40
million downloads of 4.1.1, overwhelmingly on systems designed for
casual
users).

  3. If the installer required presence of Java, that would be a clear
indication that it is required for operation.  It would also be
helpful if
the installer provided an usable link for installing a workable Java
if one
is not present.

  4. If the presence of Java is indeed optional, and the user does
not have
it or elects not to use it, AOO should not even offer functions for
which
Java is required.  That is another way to improve the usability and at
least avoid users falling through trap-doors.

  5. Shouldn't we do this better?  Or are we to decree that AOO is only
intended for power-users who have strong skills with regard to managing
their configurations, managing the install of dependencies,
trouble-shooting and being able to work around the not-dependable way
things work now?

Three paths come to mind.

  A. Remove the Java dependencies.

  B. Adjust the Java dependencies,
 1. So that the dependencies are clear and the situation around
failures to find a suitable JRE is made workable for casual users.
This
could involve the above (2-4) remedies.
 2. Only then consider increasing the dependencies on Java for
full-function operation in some controllable way.

  C. Make AOO a Java application that has C++ components, rather than
the
reverse.

These are all serious.  Probably on the way to either A or C, one must
address B.

We also need to consider what the project's capacity for any of these
cases happens to be.

Thoughts?

  - Dennis

PS: There is a bigger question about platform presence in here.
There are
distributions for which Java dependency is not particularly
attractive and
we may be cutting ourselves off from those.  That might not matter
if we
are talking about the small percentage of the downloads that are for
neither Windows nor Macintosh desktop PCs.




-Original Message-
From: Pedro Giffuni [mailto:p...@apache.org]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2015 08:07
To: Apache OO 
Subject: Re:

Re: [QUESTION] Usability of Non-Optional Java Dependencies

2015-10-29 Thread Greg Bullock

Thank you, to both of you, for the confirmation and the linked references.

Greg

On 10/29/2015 1:07 PM, Simon Phipps wrote:

It's not just third-party reports like the one both you and I have cited.
Oracle also documents its installation of adware/spyware with Java:
http://www.java.com/en/download/faq/ask_toolbar.xml

tells expert users how to bypass it:
http://www.java.com/en/download/faq/disable_offers.xml

and disingenuously pretends it's all good:
http://www.java.com/en/download/faq/adware_spyware.xml

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 7:10 PM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:

See, for example,
http://superuser.com/questions/549028/how-can-i-prevent-ask-com-toolbar-from-being-installed-every-time-java-is-update

I just did a simple default install of the current JRE, and it did not
offer Ask.com, so maybe Oracle has seen the error of their ways.

On 10/29/2015 11:57 AM, Greg Bullock wrote:

Would you confirm that, about the adware/spyware tricks? If confirmed,
that would definitely interest me.

Perhaps it's just my obliviousness or rapidly fading memory, but I don't
recall ever seeing a trap on Oracle's Java download trying to install
adware/spyware.

http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/jre8-downloads-2133155.html

I've used Java (JRE, JDK and Netbeans) on Windows actively for 5+ years,
and occasionally for longer than that, and I just don't recall seeing a
malware trick there. I see them on other sites for other software, but
not there for Java.

Greg

On 10/29/2015 11:44 AM, Simon Phipps wrote:

One more factor to consider is that the official Java installer
promoted by
Oracle tries really hard to trick the end-user into installing
adware/spyware at the same time. We used to avoid this in the Sun
installer
by bundling Java, but having it as an external dependency for new AOO
users
means they face the challenge not only of finding and installing Java but
avoiding the malware as they do so.

I'd say this was a really big negative for a dependency on official Java.
It's not a problem on Linux where there is usually an OpenJDK bundle
available, but it's a huge negative on Windows.

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 5:44 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
wrote:

The Java dependency problem keeps coming up buried in other threads.

I am
redirecting the most recent case so we can put light on this situation.

Before the dependencies on Java are increased/improved, I think there
is a
crucial usability matter.

1. Currently users are trap-doored by exercising a feature or
dialog that
suddenly raises a Java dependency, sometimes for which there is no
escape
other than finding a way to shut down AOO that is not a
normally-required
skill.

2. The fact that full functioning of AOO is buried in the system
requirements in a way that users can easily overlook (or never
examine) is
a problem. We can fix that page, even providing (or linking to)
specific
details of what the dependencies are. That would be useful so developers
and power-users have the details. However, the system requirements are
probably not read by most who download the software (based on over 40
million downloads of 4.1.1, overwhelmingly on systems designed for
casual
users).

3. If the installer required presence of Java, that would be a clear
indication that it is required for operation. It would also be
helpful if
the installer provided an usable link for installing a workable Java
if one
is not present.

4. If the presence of Java is indeed optional, and the user does
not have
it or elects not to use it, AOO should not even offer functions for
which
Java is required. That is another way to improve the usability and at
least avoid users falling through trap-doors.

5. Shouldn't we do this better? Or are we to decree that AOO is only
intended for power-users who have strong skills with regard to managing
their configurations, managing the install of dependencies,
trouble-shooting and being able to work around the not-dependable way
things work now?

Three paths come to mind.

A. Remove the Java dependencies.

B. Adjust the Java dependencies,
1. So that the dependencies are clear and the situation around
failures to find a suitable JRE is made workable for casual users. This
could involve the above (2-4) remedies.
2. Only then consider increasing the dependencies on Java for
full-function operation in some controllable way.

C. Make AOO a Java application that has C++ components, rather than
the
reverse.

These are all serious. Probably on the way to either A or C, one must
address B.

We also need to consider what the project's capacity for any of these
cases happens to be.

Thoughts?

- Dennis

PS: There is a bigger question about platform presence in here.
There are
distributions for which Java dependency is not particularly
attractive and
we may be cutting ourselves off from those. That might not matter if we
are talking about the small percentage of the

Re: Wrong version number on the German download page

2015-10-29 Thread Jörg Schmidt

> From: Marcus [mailto:marcus.m...@wtnet.de] 

> Am 10/29/2015 07:49 PM, schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
> > on the German download page 
> (http://www.openoffice.org/de/downloads/index.html) is to 
> display the version number (in the right list box) still 4.1.1.
> >
> > (only the display of the version number is defect, the 
> download is correct 4.1.2)
> 
> all is fine now, please try again.

Yes, it is OK now.


Jörg


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Re: Thinking of joining OpenOffice as a developer


Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:

From: Patricia Shanahan
I started with
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/Building_Guide/Building_o
n_Windows,
but hit some issues and want to make sure I'm using the right guide.


The first line of that page says

"This page is archived for historical reasons only. It is no longer 
maintained and information may not be current."


If you missed it, many others may miss it. I've now created a wiki 
account for you (you will shortly receive a temporary password by mail) 
so that you can fix this and/or other issues you may find: of course 
this is best done by someone who is relatively new to the project.



There may be additional information.  The easiest way is to find out exactly 
what the build parameters were  for the 4.1.2 release (which should be in the 
source code archive for that release).


No, they are not part of the source release. They never were. But this 
time I do have specs of all the systems and build flags we sued, so that 
we can aim at having a reproducible build. I'll put them somewhere in 
SVN (or would the wiki be better?).


Regards,
  Andrea.

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Re: Thinking of joining OpenOffice as a developer




On 10/29/2015 3:08 PM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:

Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:

From: Patricia Shanahan
I started with
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/Building_Guide/Building_o
n_Windows,
but hit some issues and want to make sure I'm using the right guide.


The first line of that page says

"This page is archived for historical reasons only. It is no longer
maintained and information may not be current."

If you missed it, many others may miss it. I've now created a wiki
account for you (you will shortly receive a temporary password by mail)
so that you can fix this and/or other issues you may find: of course
this is best done by someone who is relatively new to the project.


Thanks. When I am sure I have the right guide, I'll edit the old one to 
add a prominent link to the correct one.


I got the temporary password.

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Re: Pending release tasks


Rory O'Farrell wrote:

On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 20:34:55 +0100 Marcus wrote:

And I think I know what went wrong:
I've committed to fast, and not waited for finishing the staging build
before committing the next change.


Probably it was my fault then. I updated the Italian site while you were 
updating download pages (in other dirs). We may have committed in the 
same second. The first broken build at


https://ci.apache.org/builders/ooo-site-site-staging/?numbuilds=50

(number 70) was mine. So if this is the cause, it may have been an 
unfortunate coincidence where I committed after a commit of yours.



Next task:
Update the headline to 4.1.2 - mostly it's still "New: Apache OpenOffice
4.1.1 released!" or similar.


Asked to the l10n list, even though we may replace it globally for the 
languages that do not use a translated headline.



A question (from my ignorance): is there a flag that can be set on the
download page code  that forces it to be redownloaded to the querying
computer, so that the user does not have to refresh the page in his browser 
cache?


We could serve a "no-cache" header, but this would need to be checked 
performance-wise, as it would cause a lot of extra load on the server, 
and we don't want it on the release announcement day.


Regards,
  Andrea.

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Re: Thank you!


RA Stehmann wrote:

Very special thanks go to Andrea.


Thanks! But truth is, thanks must go me as much as to everybody else. 
Dozens, maybe even hundreds, of people spent days (and, more often, 
nights) working to make this release happen. A number of them are 
credited at 
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.1.2 but there 
are many, many more who helped and it couldn't be otherwise: a release 
is a community effort, not the work of a restricted group pf people.


Regards,
  Andrea.

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Re: Thinking of joining OpenOffice as a developer


On 10/29/2015 10:56 AM, Damjan Jovanovic wrote:

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 7:32 PM, Patricia Shanahan  wrote:

...

What is the best guide to building AOO on Windows 8?

I started with
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/Building_Guide/Building_on_Windows,
but hit some issues and want to make sure I'm using the right guide.



Hi Patricia

I used this building guide on Windows:
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/Building_Guide_AOO/Step_by_step#Windows_7

If you have any problems building feel free to mail this list. Windows
doesn't always build cleanly for me either.

Oh and a big welcome to AOO. I like Apache River too btw :-).


"Install cygwin, 32bit version"

Do I really have to go to 32-bit Cygwin? I have a fine 64-bit Cygwin 
already running on my 16 GB memory system.


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[QUESTION] Usability of Non-Optional Java Dependencies

The Java dependency problem keeps coming up buried in other threads.  I am 
redirecting the most recent case so we can put light on this situation.

Before the dependencies on Java are increased/improved, I think there is a 
crucial usability matter.

 1. Currently users are trap-doored by exercising a feature or dialog that 
suddenly raises a Java dependency, sometimes for which there is no escape other 
than finding a way to shut down AOO that is not a normally-required skill.

 2. The fact that full functioning of AOO is buried in the system requirements 
in a way that users can easily overlook (or never examine) is a problem.  We 
can fix that page, even providing (or linking to) specific details of what the 
dependencies are. That would be useful so developers and power-users have the 
details.  However, the system requirements are probably not read by most who 
download the software (based on over 40 million downloads of 4.1.1, 
overwhelmingly on systems designed for casual users).

 3. If the installer required presence of Java, that would be a clear 
indication that it is required for operation.  It would also be helpful if the 
installer provided an usable link for installing a workable Java if one is not 
present.

 4. If the presence of Java is indeed optional, and the user does not have it 
or elects not to use it, AOO should not even offer functions for which Java is 
required.  That is another way to improve the usability and at least avoid 
users falling through trap-doors.

 5. Shouldn't we do this better?  Or are we to decree that AOO is only intended 
for power-users who have strong skills with regard to managing their 
configurations, managing the install of dependencies, trouble-shooting and 
being able to work around the not-dependable way things work now?  

Three paths come to mind.

 A. Remove the Java dependencies.

 B. Adjust the Java dependencies,
1. So that the dependencies are clear and the situation around failures to 
find a suitable JRE is made workable for casual users.  This could involve the 
above (2-4) remedies.
2. Only then consider increasing the dependencies on Java for full-function 
operation in some controllable way.  

 C. Make AOO a Java application that has C++ components, rather than the 
reverse.

These are all serious.  Probably on the way to either A or C, one must address 
B.

We also need to consider what the project's capacity for any of these cases 
happens to be.  

Thoughts?

 - Dennis

PS: There is a bigger question about platform presence in here.  There are 
distributions for which Java dependency is not particularly attractive and we 
may be cutting ourselves off from those.  That might not matter if we are 
talking about the small percentage of the downloads that are for neither 
Windows nor Macintosh desktop PCs.



> -Original Message-
> From: Pedro Giffuni [mailto:p...@apache.org]
> Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2015 08:07
> To: Apache OO 
> Subject: Re: Thinking of joining OpenOffice as a developer
> 
> Hello;
> 
> First of all, a warm welcome to Patricia. Java developers are
> particularly welcome at this stage!
> 
> Just IMHO, the C++ side of AOO is either under-control or
> too-ugly-to care-about, so we would do good focus more on the
> Java parts, which are also somewhat ugly but still promising.
[ ... ]


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RE: Thinking of joining OpenOffice as a developer

While that sentiment was expressed on a thread about another topic, it should 
be understood that the idea of *increasing* Java dependency does not reflect an 
agreed project direction.

Before that could be considered, it seems to me that a number of issues around 
Java dependency need to be addressed first, especially those that introduce 
crashers in unexpected ways.

This should be on a thread of its own, now that I think about it.  The current 
usability issues need to be called out and their impact appreciated.

 - Dennis

> -Original Message-
> From: Patricia Shanahan [mailto:p...@acm.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 20:38
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Thinking of joining OpenOffice as a developer
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/28/2015 8:18 PM, F C. Costero wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 7:37 PM, Kay Schenk 
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 6:22 PM, Patricia Shanahan 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I am a very experienced programmer and computer architect, now
> retired.
> >> My
> >>> current strongest language is Java, but I have programmed in many
> >> languages
> >>> and can learn them as needed. My last professional C++ work was in
> the
> >>> 1980's.
> >>>
> >>> Although I am Chair of the Apache River PMC, the types of work it
> >>> currently needs, other than the facilitation and reporting I do as
> Chair,
> >>> are outside my areas of expertise. I have time to do some
> programming
> >>> elsewhere.
> >>>
> >>> I have been an OpenOffice user - I started using StarOffice at Sun
> around
> >>> 2000 - but more recently I've switched to LibreOffice because of
> lack of
> >>> OpenOffice releases. I am now downloading OpenOffice 4.1.2.
> >>>
> >>> I have become aware that OpenOffice needs more developers. Despite
> the
> >>> rustiness of my C++, I hope I can help. If so, how should I get
> started?
> >>>
> >>>
> >> You have wonderful experience, Patricia! Thank you for your interest.
> >> Stay tuned. We'll be discussing plans and tasks  for the future very
> soon.
> >> Meanwhile, we could certainly use some "architect" eyes on our code.
> Please
> >> weigh in as you see fit.
> >>
> >> --
> >> -
> -
> >> MzK
> >>
> >> “The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.”
> >>--Lao Tzu
> >>
> > Hello Patricia,
> > You might be interested in the comments in favor of Java use in
> AOO made
> > on this list by Damjan Jovanovic on Oct 15. I'm sorry I can't link to
> them
> > at the moment.
> > Francis
> >
> 
> Thanks. I've just read the thread. I certainly prefer Java to C++, but I
> rarely have a machine capable of running OpenOffice that does not have
> at least one JRE installed.
> 
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Re: Pending release tasks