Re: [PROPOSAL] Removing all tracking from AOO sites

[Kay Schenk]

On 06/08/2016 03:55 PM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:

Any news on this?





I committed changes to use the anonymizer feature, but I didn't update 
this thread. Sorry.
I had some help verifying that this was now working and INDIVIDUAL 
information was masked.


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MzK

"Time spent with cats is never wasted."
   -- Sigmund Freud

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Removing all tracking from AOO sites

[Pedro Giffuni]

Any news on this?



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Removing all tracking from AOO sites

[Kay Schenk]

On 05/20/2016 12:19 PM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:

In reply to Kay;
...


Ever heard of Big Data? This information will be correlated along with
the latest
searches and will be sold for commercial value to other companies and
will also
likely be available to the governments of the world at request. For
whatever
Mr. Trump may find it useful is another matter.


I understand broadly what your concerns are. But really, in this day and
age, almost ANY website you visit has some sort of tracking mechanisnm
in place. Next time you "visit" anywhere, you might want to check this.



That others do it, doesn't mean we should. Do we at least respect the
"do not track" settings in the browser?


Well...I've been looking in this as well as communicating with Rob Weir 
who originally set up our GA process. I would *think* but can't verify 
for sure if DNT is respected by Google Analytics. Without knowing the 
internals of what happens with this option -- does the browser actually 
DO something to your IP address for example to cause this to happen or 
??? -- it's difficult to answer this. There is another option in GA 
we're not currently using, anonymize_IP, which I'm investigating. We 
will definitely add this option as soon as I can figure this out.







Worst of all, we are not getting any value from this tracking ... let's
stop it now.


Well this last statement is NOT true. For the download page especially,
it is valuable because we can find out generally what OS the user is
using, complete with version information. I mean in a bulk sense.



How valuable is that? How does us it bring us any nearer towards having
an Android/iOS port? We already have counts from downloads statistics
and we know at least 80% of our users get the Windows port.

Pedro.




--

MzK

"Time spent with cats is never wasted."
   -- Sigmund Freud

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Removing all tracking from AOO sites

[Roberto Galoppini]

2016-05-20 23:36 GMT+02:00 Kay Schenk <kay.sch...@gmail.com>:

>
>
> On 05/20/2016 02:01 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>
>> I don't want to get too fussy, but we are talking about different
>> statistics here.  Comment inline.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Kay Schenk [mailto:kay.sch...@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Friday, May 20, 2016 09:54
>>> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Removing all tracking from AOO sites
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 05/20/2016 09:27 AM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:
>>>
>>>> Guys, please ...
>>>>
>>>> I just wanted to give a short update into my investigation of our
>>>>>
>>>> Google
>>>
>>>> Analytics usage.
>>>>>
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> * There IS general individual usage collection in some reports but
>>>>>
>>>> the
>>>
>>>> "user" information is translated into something called a "client id"
>>>>> -- so
>>>>> not by IP.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Let's just not be naive here. We are giving direct information about
>>>>
>>> our
>>>
>>>> users to
>>>> a company that has ample power to tie this information to specific
>>>>
>>> users
>>>
>>>> and
>>>> that already may own the content of your emails and navigation
>>>>
>>> history.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ever heard of Big Data? This information will be correlated along with
>>>> the latest
>>>> searches and will be sold for commercial value to other companies and
>>>> will also
>>>> likely be available to the governments of the world at request. For
>>>> whatever
>>>> Mr. Trump may find it useful is another matter.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I understand broadly what your concerns are. But really, in this day and
>>> age, almost ANY website you visit has some sort of tracking mechanisnm
>>> in place. Next time you "visit" anywhere, you might want to check this.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Worst of all, we are not getting any value from this tracking ...
>>>>
>>> let's
>>>
>>>> stop it now.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well this last statement is NOT true. For the download page especially,
>>> it is valuable because we can find out generally what OS the user is
>>> using, complete with version information. I mean in a bulk sense.
>>>
>> [orcmid]
>>
>> I get all of the download statistics I see from SourceForge.  That is
>> based on the downloads they serve and should have nothing to do with what
>> we do on our web pages with regard to Google Analytics, etc.
>>
>> Knowing the browser information, including default OS and language
>> preference, is different than knowing what download, if any, they are
>> requesting.  I suspect SourceForge has that information on the
>> click-throughs to where they serve the requests, whether or not we provide
>> tracking on the AOO pages.
>>
>
> That is correct. So whatever is "collected" from the download page vis a
> vis browser, OS, OS version, etc, would be the same OS version info that
> would be available for collection by SourceForge. But, I don't know what
> SourceForge collects in this regard, if anything. What we see from that
> site is downloads based on filename. They may not be saving any of the
> client information.
>
> Of course, the visits to www.openoffice.org/download do NOT automatically
> translate to an actual download.


Correct, conversion rate needs to be checked end-to-end.

Also considering we're a pretty unique Apache project in terms of download
volumes, we should always be on top of both analytics and detailed data
(e.g. not only # daily downloads but also peak hours volumes). I remember
the days when we didn't have a clue about those figures and sizing
infrastructure for AOOE/T was just a guess work.

Roberto



>
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Pedro.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> 
>>> MzK
>>>
>>> "Time spent with cats is never wasted."
>>>  -- Sigmund Freud
>>>
>>> -
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
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>>
>>
> --
> 
> MzK
>
> "Time spent with cats is never wasted."
>-- Sigmund Freud
>
> -
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> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>
>

Re: [PROPOSAL] Removing all tracking from AOO sites

[Kay Schenk]

On 05/20/2016 02:01 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:

I don't want to get too fussy, but we are talking about different statistics 
here.  Comment inline.


-Original Message-
From: Kay Schenk [mailto:kay.sch...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2016 09:54
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Removing all tracking from AOO sites



On 05/20/2016 09:27 AM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:

Guys, please ...


I just wanted to give a short update into my investigation of our

Google

Analytics usage.

...

* There IS general individual usage collection in some reports but

the

"user" information is translated into something called a "client id"
-- so
not by IP.


Let's just not be naive here. We are giving direct information about

our

users to
a company that has ample power to tie this information to specific

users

and
that already may own the content of your emails and navigation

history.


Ever heard of Big Data? This information will be correlated along with
the latest
searches and will be sold for commercial value to other companies and
will also
likely be available to the governments of the world at request. For
whatever
Mr. Trump may find it useful is another matter.


I understand broadly what your concerns are. But really, in this day and
age, almost ANY website you visit has some sort of tracking mechanisnm
in place. Next time you "visit" anywhere, you might want to check this.



Worst of all, we are not getting any value from this tracking ...

let's

stop it now.


Well this last statement is NOT true. For the download page especially,
it is valuable because we can find out generally what OS the user is
using, complete with version information. I mean in a bulk sense.

[orcmid]

I get all of the download statistics I see from SourceForge.  That is based on 
the downloads they serve and should have nothing to do with what we do on our 
web pages with regard to Google Analytics, etc.

Knowing the browser information, including default OS and language preference, 
is different than knowing what download, if any, they are requesting.  I 
suspect SourceForge has that information on the click-throughs to where they 
serve the requests, whether or not we provide tracking on the AOO pages.


That is correct. So whatever is "collected" from the download page vis a 
vis browser, OS, OS version, etc, would be the same OS version info that 
would be available for collection by SourceForge. But, I don't know what 
SourceForge collects in this regard, if anything. What we see from that 
site is downloads based on filename. They may not be saving any of the 
client information.


Of course, the visits to www.openoffice.org/download do NOT 
automatically translate to an actual download.







Pedro.



--

MzK

"Time spent with cats is never wasted."
 -- Sigmund Freud

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RE: [PROPOSAL] Removing all tracking from AOO sites

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I don't want to get too fussy, but we are talking about different statistics 
here.  Comment inline.

> -Original Message-
> From: Kay Schenk [mailto:kay.sch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, May 20, 2016 09:54
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Removing all tracking from AOO sites
> 
> 
> 
> On 05/20/2016 09:27 AM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:
> > Guys, please ...
> >
> >> I just wanted to give a short update into my investigation of our
> Google
> >> Analytics usage.
> >>
> >> ...
> >>
> >> * There IS general individual usage collection in some reports but
> the
> >> "user" information is translated into something called a "client id"
> >> -- so
> >> not by IP.
> >
> > Let's just not be naive here. We are giving direct information about
> our
> > users to
> > a company that has ample power to tie this information to specific
> users
> > and
> > that already may own the content of your emails and navigation
> history.
> >
> > Ever heard of Big Data? This information will be correlated along with
> > the latest
> > searches and will be sold for commercial value to other companies and
> > will also
> > likely be available to the governments of the world at request. For
> > whatever
> > Mr. Trump may find it useful is another matter.
> 
> I understand broadly what your concerns are. But really, in this day and
> age, almost ANY website you visit has some sort of tracking mechanisnm
> in place. Next time you "visit" anywhere, you might want to check this.
> 
> >
> > Worst of all, we are not getting any value from this tracking ...
> let's
> > stop it now.
> 
> Well this last statement is NOT true. For the download page especially,
> it is valuable because we can find out generally what OS the user is
> using, complete with version information. I mean in a bulk sense.
[orcmid] 

I get all of the download statistics I see from SourceForge.  That is based on 
the downloads they serve and should have nothing to do with what we do on our 
web pages with regard to Google Analytics, etc.

Knowing the browser information, including default OS and language preference, 
is different than knowing what download, if any, they are requesting.  I 
suspect SourceForge has that information on the click-throughs to where they 
serve the requests, whether or not we provide tracking on the AOO pages.
> 
> 
> >
> > Pedro.
> >
> 
> --
> 
> MzK
> 
> "Time spent with cats is never wasted."
> -- Sigmund Freud
> 
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Removing all tracking from AOO sites

[Pedro Giffuni]

In reply to Kay;
...


Ever heard of Big Data? This information will be correlated along with
the latest
searches and will be sold for commercial value to other companies and
will also
likely be available to the governments of the world at request. For
whatever
Mr. Trump may find it useful is another matter.


I understand broadly what your concerns are. But really, in this day and
age, almost ANY website you visit has some sort of tracking mechanisnm
in place. Next time you "visit" anywhere, you might want to check this.



That others do it, doesn't mean we should. Do we at least respect the 
"do not track" settings in the browser?




Worst of all, we are not getting any value from this tracking ... let's
stop it now.


Well this last statement is NOT true. For the download page especially,
it is valuable because we can find out generally what OS the user is
using, complete with version information. I mean in a bulk sense.



How valuable is that? How does us it bring us any nearer towards having
an Android/iOS port? We already have counts from downloads statistics
and we know at least 80% of our users get the Windows port.

Pedro.

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Removing all tracking from AOO sites

[Kay Schenk]

On 05/20/2016 09:27 AM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:

Guys, please ...


I just wanted to give a short update into my investigation of our Google
Analytics usage.

...

* There IS general individual usage collection in some reports but the
"user" information is translated into something called a "client id"
-- so
not by IP.


Let's just not be naive here. We are giving direct information about our
users to
a company that has ample power to tie this information to specific users
and
that already may own the content of your emails and navigation history.

Ever heard of Big Data? This information will be correlated along with
the latest
searches and will be sold for commercial value to other companies and
will also
likely be available to the governments of the world at request. For
whatever
Mr. Trump may find it useful is another matter.


I understand broadly what your concerns are. But really, in this day and 
age, almost ANY website you visit has some sort of tracking mechanisnm 
in place. Next time you "visit" anywhere, you might want to check this.




Worst of all, we are not getting any value from this tracking ... let's
stop it now.


Well this last statement is NOT true. For the download page especially, 
it is valuable because we can find out generally what OS the user is 
using, complete with version information. I mean in a bulk sense.





Pedro.



--

MzK

"Time spent with cats is never wasted."
   -- Sigmund Freud

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Removing all tracking from AOO sites

[Pedro Giffuni]

Guys, please ...


I just wanted to give a short update into my investigation of our Google
Analytics usage.

...

* There IS general individual usage collection in some reports but the
"user" information is translated into something called a "client id" -- so
not by IP.


Let's just not be naive here. We are giving direct information about our 
users to

a company that has ample power to tie this information to specific users and
that already may own the content of your emails and navigation history.

Ever heard of Big Data? This information will be correlated along with 
the latest
searches and will be sold for commercial value to other companies and 
will also

likely be available to the governments of the world at request. For whatever
Mr. Trump may find it useful is another matter.

Worst of all, we are not getting any value from this tracking ... let's 
stop it now.


Pedro.

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Removing all tracking from AOO sites

[Kay Schenk]

On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 10:24 AM, Kay Schenk  wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 9:56 AM, Pedro Giffuni  wrote:
>
>> +1
>>
>> I should note, I used to have access to the Google Analytics stuff
>> when I was in the PMC. It was set up by Rob Weir under consensus.
>>
>> It is certainly a form of tracking and, at least I, have no idea what
>> purpose it has served. From some time I have had no access it as it
>> mysteriously disappeared from my list of GA sites.
>>
>> Thanks so much for bringing up this subject, I always meant to bring
>> it up but forgot.
>>
>> Pedro.
>
> ​
> Really, this is aggregated data. The setup for GA  was agreed to  in 2011
> for some pages -- the download one -- and later ported to the whole web
> site.
>
> See first discussion:
>
> ​http://markmail.org/thread/7koytfcgpdeiqzn6
>
> ( a number of discussions on other threads followed)
>
> Some of "us" have access to the AOO analytics data. As I recall, this was
> via request to Rob Weir. Right now, I can not find who the individuals are.
> I am one of them. It's likely that Rob is still the only one with admin
> rights to this, and this should be changed.
>
> I have not logged into GA in quite some time. If it IS possible to provide
> public access to some of this data, I would much prefer that then removing
> GA entirely.  I will investigate this and get back to the list later in the
> week.
>
>
>
​I just wanted to give a short update into my investigation of our Google
Analytics usage.

* Only our Admin, Rob Weir, would seem to have any control on making the
viewing of ANY reports public. I will contact Rob. And, see what we can do
to add more admins, etc.

* There are several reports available for viewing. The Overview Report
might be useful for public consumption.

* We are using an older version of the GA javascript collection mechanism.
I will test out the newer one sometime over the next few days and report on
this.

* There IS general individual usage collection in some reports but the
"user" information is translated into something called a "client id" -- so
not by IP.

*  For some general information on what is collected, please see:
​

https://developers.google.com/analytics/devguides/collection/analyticsjs/cookie-usage#overview

​In summary. Still under investigation. As a few of us DO have rights to
this, it would be nice if folks with direct access would voice an opinion.​


-- 
--
MzK

"Time spent with cats is never wasted."
-- Sigmund Freud

Re: [PROPOSAL] Removing all tracking from AOO sites

[Kay Schenk]

On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 9:56 AM, Pedro Giffuni  wrote:

> +1
>
> I should note, I used to have access to the Google Analytics stuff
> when I was in the PMC. It was set up by Rob Weir under consensus.
>
> It is certainly a form of tracking and, at least I, have no idea what
> purpose it has served. From some time I have had no access it as it
> mysteriously disappeared from my list of GA sites.
>
> Thanks so much for bringing up this subject, I always meant to bring
> it up but forgot.
>
> Pedro.

​
Really, this is aggregated data. The setup for GA  was agreed to  in 2011
for some pages -- the download one -- and later ported to the whole web
site.

See first discussion:

​http://markmail.org/thread/7koytfcgpdeiqzn6

( a number of discussions on other threads followed)

Some of "us" have access to the AOO analytics data. As I recall, this was
via request to Rob Weir. Right now, I can not find who the individuals are.
I am one of them. It's likely that Rob is still the only one with admin
rights to this, and this should be changed.

I have not logged into GA in quite some time. If it IS possible to provide
public access to some of this data, I would much prefer that then removing
GA entirely.  I will investigate this and get back to the list later in the
week.


-- 
--
MzK

"Time spent with cats is never wasted."
-- Sigmund Freud

RE: [PROPOSAL] Removing all tracking from AOO sites

[Pedro Giffuni]

+1

I should note, I used to have access to the Google Analytics stuff
when I was in the PMC. It was set up by Rob Weir under consensus.

It is certainly a form of tracking and, at least I, have no idea what 
purpose it has served. From some time I have had no access it as it

mysteriously disappeared from my list of GA sites.

Thanks so much for bringing up this subject, I always meant to bring
it up but forgot.

Pedro.

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RE: [PROPOSAL] Removing all tracking from AOO sites

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

A question, below.

> -Original Message-
> From: Marcus [mailto:marcus.m...@wtnet.de]
> Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 00:08
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Removing all tracking from AOO sites
> 
> Am 05/16/2016 12:02 AM, schrieb Andrea Pescetti:
> > Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> >> PROPOSAL
> >> Remove all tracking elements from AOO-authored and published web
> pages.
> >
> > As it is, I don't like this proposal. I mean, removing Google
> Analytics
> > for example is quite a strong move since we don't have anything
> equally
> > informative in place. Sure, we could use other systems (and in
> principle
> > I would support this option) or collect nothing, but the "We are not
> > using it" argument is not really strong for analytics where the
> > historical values are important; so what we collect today may be
> useful
> > in future, even if we don't use it today.
[orcmid] 

Where is the information by which anyone here can make use of current Google 
analytics to perform an investigation into historical values?

Who has the information necessary to do that and how can anyone use it?

I may simply be ignorant of an established arrangement.  Where can information 
about it be found?

> 
> simply +1
> 
> >> BACKGROUND
> >> https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126959 browsers now report
> >> that there is insecure content being provided on some of the pages
> >
> > This is a much narrower case and here I agree that we should
> > investigate/remove. But so long as something works well I don't see a
> > reason to remove it; I don't like it very much, but others have used
> it
> > in the past and may need to use it in future.
> 
> The proposal from Dennis and the reason for it is not connected - at
> least this is my opinion.
> 
> The reason for browser error messages that HTTP and HTTPS content is
> mixed-up is in no relation with collecting some data about website
> visitors.
> 
> I also think we should keep the analytics stuff like it is and
> concentrate on the problems that just results in a wrong usage of URLs
> in the HTML code on some webpages.
> 
> Marcus
> 
> 
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Removing all tracking from AOO sites

[Max Merbald]

Hi there,

there are too many trackers on too many web pages already. I think we 
should make a positive example and have all trackers removed. It appears 
that it's not the Apache OpenOffice project who have an advantage from 
the tracking junk but only others. Remove them!



Max



Am 15.05.2016 um 23:01 schrieb Dennis E. Hamilton:

There are web pages delivered by Apache OpenOffice properties that, when 
browsed, signal their access to tracking sites that collect statistics about 
site usage.  This is done by fetching scripts and/or images from the sites that 
provide the statistics.

This is a form of tracking that is carried out by services not under control of 
the Apache OpenOffice project.

The effort to track usage also causes "insecure content" warnings in browsers, 
depending on the security options the user has set for their browser and the web address 
being used.

PROPOSAL

Remove all tracking elements from AOO-authored and published web pages.

This eliminates an under-used arrangement and also removes the uncertainty that 
is raised when visitors are warned that there is insecure content associated 
with the web page they are viewing.

This proposal is offered for lazy consensus no earlier than 2016-05-23T23:00Z.

BACKGROUND

We have been enabling https: access to Apache OpenOffice web properties.  This 
is in line with the desire to use secure connections.  By secure is meant that 
the traffic on the connection itself is encrypted and there is protection 
against man-in-the-middle and spoof sites that high-jack the traffic in some 
manner.  This is not complete privacy.

As pointed out in a couple of Bugzilla issues, such as 
, browsers now report that 
there is insecure content being provided on some of the pages that are visited.  This 
is because browsing the page fetches some content without using https.  These sites 
are under Apache OpenOffice control and we cannot change to using a secure 
connection.  Even if we did, it would not change the tracking that is achieved.  It 
would simply not call attention to it.

These images, and also some scripts, are used for gathering access and usage 
statistics from various services.

Since we are not routinely making the available statistics public, this is one 
of those we-collect-it-because-we-can and not because-we-need-it.  There is, as 
far as can be determined on these lists, no active use of the information that 
is collected.

  -- Dennis E. Hamilton
 orc...@apache.org
 dennis.hamil...@acm.org+1-206-779-9430 
https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126959
 https://keybase.io/orcmid  PGP F96E 89FF D456 628A
 X.509 certs used and requested for signed e-mail



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Removing all tracking from AOO sites

[Roberto Galoppini]

Sent from my iPhone

> On 16 mag 2016, at 09:07, Marcus  wrote:
> 
> Am 05/16/2016 12:02 AM, schrieb Andrea Pescetti:
>> Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>>> PROPOSAL
>>> Remove all tracking elements from AOO-authored and published web pages.
>> 
>> As it is, I don't like this proposal. I mean, removing Google Analytics
>> for example is quite a strong move since we don't have anything equally
>> informative in place. Sure, we could use other systems (and in principle
>> I would support this option) or collect nothing, but the "We are not
>> using it" argument is not really strong for analytics where the
>> historical values are important; so what we collect today may be useful
>> in future, even if we don't use it today.
> 
> simply +1

+1

> 
>>> BACKGROUND
>>> https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126959 browsers now report
>>> that there is insecure content being provided on some of the pages
>> 
>> This is a much narrower case and here I agree that we should
>> investigate/remove. But so long as something works well I don't see a
>> reason to remove it; I don't like it very much, but others have used it
>> in the past and may need to use it in future.
> 
> The proposal from Dennis and the reason for it is not connected - at least 
> this is my opinion.
> 
> The reason for browser error messages that HTTP and HTTPS content is mixed-up 
> is in no relation with collecting some data about website visitors.
> 
> I also think we should keep the analytics stuff like it is and concentrate on 
> the problems that just results in a wrong usage of URLs in the HTML code on 
> some webpages.

Fully agree. Only issue maybe to comunicate clearly and properly we do use 
cookies for such a purpose, as recommended by few national regulations.

Roberto

> 
> Marcus
> 
> 
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Removing all tracking from AOO sites

[Marcus]

Am 05/16/2016 12:02 AM, schrieb Andrea Pescetti:

Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:

PROPOSAL
Remove all tracking elements from AOO-authored and published web pages.


As it is, I don't like this proposal. I mean, removing Google Analytics
for example is quite a strong move since we don't have anything equally
informative in place. Sure, we could use other systems (and in principle
I would support this option) or collect nothing, but the "We are not
using it" argument is not really strong for analytics where the
historical values are important; so what we collect today may be useful
in future, even if we don't use it today.


simply +1


BACKGROUND
https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126959 browsers now report
that there is insecure content being provided on some of the pages


This is a much narrower case and here I agree that we should
investigate/remove. But so long as something works well I don't see a
reason to remove it; I don't like it very much, but others have used it
in the past and may need to use it in future.


The proposal from Dennis and the reason for it is not connected - at 
least this is my opinion.


The reason for browser error messages that HTTP and HTTPS content is 
mixed-up is in no relation with collecting some data about website visitors.


I also think we should keep the analytics stuff like it is and 
concentrate on the problems that just results in a wrong usage of URLs 
in the HTML code on some webpages.


Marcus


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RE: [PROPOSAL] Removing all tracking from AOO sites

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

inline

> -Original Message-
> From: Kay Schenk [mailto:kay.sch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2016 14:34
> To: OOo Apache <dev@openoffice.apache.org>; Dennis Hamilton
> <dennis.hamil...@acm.org>
> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Removing all tracking from AOO sites
> 
> On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 2:01 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
> <dennis.hamil...@acm.org
> > wrote:
> 
> > There are web pages delivered by Apache OpenOffice properties that,
> when
> > browsed, signal their access to tracking sites that collect statistics
> > about site usage.  This is done by fetching scripts and/or images from
> the
> > sites that provide the statistics.
> >
> > This is a form of tracking that is carried out by services not under
> > control of the Apache OpenOffice project.
> >
> > The effort to track usage also causes "insecure content" warnings in
> > browsers, depending on the security options the user has set for their
> > browser and the web address being used.
> >
> > PROPOSAL
> >
> > Remove all tracking elements from AOO-authored and published web
> pages.
> >
> > This eliminates an under-used arrangement and also removes the
> uncertainty
> > that is raised when visitors are warned that there is insecure content
> > associated with the web page they are viewing.
> >
> > This proposal is offered for lazy consensus no earlier than
> > 2016-05-23T23:00Z.
> >
> > BACKGROUND
[ ... ]
> >
> > These images, and also some scripts, are used for gathering access and
> > usage statistics from various services.
> >
> > Since we are not routinely making the available statistics public,
> this is
> > one of those we-collect-it-because-we-can and not because-we-need-it.
> > There is, as far as can be determined on these lists, no active use of
> the
> > information that is collected.
[ ... ]
> >
> ​I took a quick look at this issue. Just for clarification, this seems to
> ONLY be an issue with accessing certain elements from 
> https://forum.openoffice.org/
> ​, correct?​ If this is the case, I am requesting  that you change the
> subject of this message so it is restricted ONLY to
> forum.openoffice.org.
> 
> I got very concerned by the stated subject because we use Google
> Analytics
> extensively -- it's part of every single page on
> http://www.openoffice.org/
> -- and of course, this IS a tracking mechanism.
> 
> I understand the problems this is causing but in this case, I think we
> need
> to be a more specific.
[orcmid] 

I was aware of that.

However, unless we are making visible and public use of Google analytics, I 
don't believe we should be doing it.  

The proposal to drop all tracking is because there apparently is no use of it 
and no accounting for it.

If I am mistaken about that, it would be useful to know how to access the 
analysis and how to make that available to anyone.

- Dennis
`
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> --
> MzK
> 
> "Time spent with cats is never wasted."
> -- Sigmund Freud


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Removing all tracking from AOO sites

[Andrea Pescetti]

Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:

PROPOSAL
Remove all tracking elements from AOO-authored and published web pages.


As it is, I don't like this proposal. I mean, removing Google Analytics 
for example is quite a strong move since we don't have anything equally 
informative in place. Sure, we could use other systems (and in principle 
I would support this option) or collect nothing, but the "We are not 
using it" argument is not really strong for analytics where the 
historical values are important; so what we collect today may be useful 
in future, even if we don't use it today.



BACKGROUND
https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126959 browsers now report
that there is insecure content being provided on some of the pages


This is a much narrower case and here I agree that we should 
investigate/remove. But so long as something works well I don't see a 
reason to remove it; I don't like it very much, but others have used it 
in the past and may need to use it in future.


Regards,
  Andrea.

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Removing all tracking from AOO sites

[Kay Schenk]

On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 2:01 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton  wrote:

> There are web pages delivered by Apache OpenOffice properties that, when
> browsed, signal their access to tracking sites that collect statistics
> about site usage.  This is done by fetching scripts and/or images from the
> sites that provide the statistics.
>
> This is a form of tracking that is carried out by services not under
> control of the Apache OpenOffice project.
>
> The effort to track usage also causes "insecure content" warnings in
> browsers, depending on the security options the user has set for their
> browser and the web address being used.
>
> PROPOSAL
>
> Remove all tracking elements from AOO-authored and published web pages.
>
> This eliminates an under-used arrangement and also removes the uncertainty
> that is raised when visitors are warned that there is insecure content
> associated with the web page they are viewing.
>
> This proposal is offered for lazy consensus no earlier than
> 2016-05-23T23:00Z.
>
> BACKGROUND
>
> We have been enabling https: access to Apache OpenOffice web properties.
> This is in line with the desire to use secure connections.  By secure is
> meant that the traffic on the connection itself is encrypted and there is
> protection against man-in-the-middle and spoof sites that high-jack the
> traffic in some manner.  This is not complete privacy.
>
> As pointed out in a couple of Bugzilla issues, such as <
> https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126959>, browsers now report
> that there is insecure content being provided on some of the pages that are
> visited.  This is because browsing the page fetches some content without
> using https.  These sites are under Apache OpenOffice control and we cannot
> change to using a secure connection.  Even if we did, it would not change
> the tracking that is achieved.  It would simply not call attention to it.
>
> These images, and also some scripts, are used for gathering access and
> usage statistics from various services.
>
> Since we are not routinely making the available statistics public, this is
> one of those we-collect-it-because-we-can and not because-we-need-it.
> There is, as far as can be determined on these lists, no active use of the
> information that is collected.
>
>  -- Dennis E. Hamilton
> orc...@apache.org
> dennis.hamil...@acm.org+1-206-779-9430
> https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126959
> https://keybase.io/orcmid  PGP F96E 89FF D456 628A
> X.509 certs used and requested for signed e-mail
>
>
>
>
>
​I took a quick look at this issue. Just for clarification, this seems to
ONLY be an issue with accessing certain elements from ​
https://forum.openoffice.org/
​, correct?​ If this is the case, I am requesting  that you change the
subject of this message so it is restricted ONLY to forum.openoffice.org.

I got very concerned by the stated subject because we use Google Analytics
extensively -- it's part of every single page on http://www.openoffice.org/
-- and of course, this IS a tracking mechanism.

I understand the problems this is causing but in this case, I think we need
to be a more specific.





-- 
--
MzK

"Time spent with cats is never wasted."
-- Sigmund Freud