Re: [dev] Re: [OOoCon 2009] OOo4Kids and Education Project : presentations canceled
Hi Eric, Original-Nachricht > Von: eric b > > In fact, it was -probably- already too late, and I should have posted > before (too busy, my fault). Since, I verified yesterday : the > EducOOo (our non profit association) received less than 300 euros. > The fact is, the npa received not enough to help me, so my > participation is canceled. > > That's completely normal. Maybe to you - to me it seems rather unfair to many of the other people who apllied for a slot. If your participation is bound to some restrictions, you could have stated this much earlier. Remember that you even could have applied for imbursements here at the Ooo project (from what I read, you did not). In preparation of the conference, you often complained, that the education project did not get enough attention. So - now the project got attention, the project lead got a session, people maybe prepared to have some chats with the education lead ... and now exactly this project lead find, ha cannot attent, because he was to late with looking for imburesements? ... > > Nevertheless, my absence is not that important Maybe to you. But what is with all the other people who prepaed to meet *you*? Maybe it is not important if you are there or not. But it is (imho) imporant to communicate open and early, under what conditions you are there. André (being a little upset) -- GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [dev] How to split VCL testtool out?
Hi, Original-Nachricht > Von: Zhu Lihua > > I've built the openoffice.org on a loongson machine, include testtool. > I wonder how to split testtool out from the installation set? I need a > stand alone testtool. There once was a set of scripts in CVS: http://qa.openoffice.org/source/browse/qa/qatesttool/tools/standaloneTestTool/?hideattic=0 Unfortunately it seems, as standalone testtool is not supported anymore. (What is somewhat strange, as it is the preferred way to use testtool even for the QA-team). Maybe someone at the qa project has an idea. André -- Jetzt kostenlos herunterladen: Internet Explorer 8 und Mozilla Firefox 3.5 - sicherer, schneller und einfacher! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/chbrowser - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.org
[dev] Promoting the ODF-Story (or how to break it)
Hi, most of you might be aware of the discussion about ODF-icons which is very controversal at the moment. I don't want to go into this discussion again, but this issue showed, how important the "ODF-Story" is and that many people around take this serious. While doing translations for OOo 3.2 I just came across, that we introduced a "ODF 1.2 *extended*" file format in OOo. From a technical point of view I have some ideas, why this is usefull and needed. But from a users POV, this is rather puzzling. At the one hand we try to promote ODF as standard - we even go that far to introduce venodr independet icons for ODF files (as we want to show, that ODF is ODF, no matter what application you use). At the other hand, we now have three flavours of ODF in OOo and none of these is the ISO standard (what is ODF 1.0). What standard ist this, where you need to change version recommendations even if you upgrade from one minor application version to the next? I think, we should be more carefull with this. André -- GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [dev] Where do the key (board) names come from?
Hi, Original-Nachricht > Von: Philipp Lohmann > Andre Schnabel wrote: > > But I wonder where the names come from, that are used in the UI. Are > these some names that are read from the system? (I did not find such names in > my translation repository). > > Indeed they are. Thanks for the confirmation. André -- Jetzt kostenlos herunterladen: Internet Explorer 8 und Mozilla Firefox 3 - sicherer, schneller und einfacher! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/chbrowser - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.org
[dev] Where do the key (board) names come from?
Hi, I just try to define some naming rules for key names in the German localization. The reference for the Help should indeed be, what is written in the UI - e.g. in Tools - Configure, keyboard. But I wonder where the names come from, that are used in the UI. Are these some names that are read from the system? (I did not find such names in my translation repository). greetings, André -- Neu: GMX Doppel-FLAT mit Internet-Flatrate + Telefon-Flatrate für nur 19,99 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [dev] High contrast mode
Hi Philip, Original-Nachricht > Von: Philipp Lohmann > for quite a while now OOo has supported "High Contrast Mode" - an > accessibility feature that makes OOo display its UI and parts of the > document in a different color set that guarantees a high contrast > between foreground and background (e.g. white text on black background). ... > > Up came issue 35482 [1] which (rightfully) says, that there are dark > desktop themes, too, that are not high contrast and that the user in > that case would want to switch our behavior off in order to get e.g. the > normal images in the toolbars. ... > > To solve this issue we'd have to change the current behavior of "dark > background = high contrast" to a "high contrast is a separate property" > kind of behavior. ... > > Unless someone objects I will change the according code instances (of > which there are quite a few :-( ). Opinions ? I don't object in this code change, I'm always in favour of using "the right property" :) But does this change really fix the reported issue? I did not try to reproduce the issue yet, but at severeal comments is mentioned that our option "Automatically detect high contrast mode of operating system" does not really work. I'm fine with any other change, as long as this option gets fixed ;) André -- Neu: GMX Doppel-FLAT mit Internet-Flatrate + Telefon-Flatrate für nur 19,99 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [dev] amount of stopper / regressions for 3.1 release
Hi, Original-Nachricht > Von: Thorsten Behrens > BTW, since there was the request for an automatic solution: anybody > knows what became of the mirrorbrain offering (on d...@tools IIRC)? Yes .. I'm in contact with Christoph Noack on this, to provide at least a test environment. (Ok, actually Christoph sent me some mails but I was not able to answer yet) André -- Pt! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger01 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [dev] amount of stopper / regressions for 3.1 release
Hi, Original-Nachricht > Von: Ingrid Halama ... > So I would like to see mandatory automatic tests that detect whether the > important user scenarios still work properly, whether files are still > rendered as they should, whether the performance of the office has not > significantly decreased, . We have a lot tests already even if > there is much room for improvement. In principle some of the tests are > mandatory already, but this rule gets ignored very often. The problem with this rule is, that there is only a very limited set of people who can follow this rule. E.g. running automated test and retting reliable results is almost restricted to the Sun QA Team in Hamburg at the moment. So - no matter what rules we define - for the moment we either have to break them or we will delay the integration of CWSes. If we delay the integration, we will delay public testing. If we delay public testing, we will find critical errors (that cannot be identified by automatic testing) even later. I know, I still have to write some more complete report about automatic testing. :( But as I suggested in another thread, I did some comparisions with automated testing on a OOO310m1 build from sund and one from a buildbot. The good thing is, that there are not many differences (buildbot had about 3 errors and 10 warnings more). The bad thing is, that I hat a total of 190 Errors in release and required tests. I did not yet have the time to analyze what happened. But these results are not usable. (And I still would say, I know how to get "good" results from the testtool). André -- Pt! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger01 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [dev] buildbot builds vs standard builds
Hi, Original-Nachricht > Von: Thorsten Ziehm > Hi Andre, > > > > > Hmm? What request is not valid? That QA communitiy shoud be able to get > > somehow reliable builds from buildbots to be able to do CWS tests? > > I will explain it again. I try to explain my future view of QA for CWSes > in different threads and also in my presentation at OOoCon 2008. But I > see, that my vision isn't really clear for all and therefore I try it > again. ... > > 3. I want to have TestBots - or how ever you want to call it - with > defined environment to check each CWS automatically or by manual > trigger. On these BuildBots automated testing will run automatically > on each CWS. ... > 6. It is needed to have builds from a defined build environment. > Therefore BuildBots have to be defined, with which the automated > tests can run stable and without other errors like the ones from Sun > internal build environment. If this is a BuildBot like sun internal > environment or anything different has to be checked. My only request so far was that we (QA Communty) need reliable builds from testbots for cws testing. the same as you state here. > > 7. When each CWS will be tested full automated the QA community and > here included also the QA engineers in Hamburg, can concentrate > on testing the new feature, checking the bug fixes etc. And for manual testing we will need somehow reliable builds. > > > If this request is not valid - what is the alternative (how would QA > > community get cws builds?) > > TestBots should be the solution and I hope until mid of this year we > will habe first results. *No* TestBots are *not* the solution for getting reliable builds. TestBots are the solution for running automated tests on reliable builds. André -- Pt! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger01 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [dev] buildbot builds vs standard builds
and finally ... Original-Nachricht > Von: "Andre Schnabel" > > I'll try to get at least some linux builds: > http://termite.go-oo.org/buildbot/builders/Ubuntu-7.10-i386/builds/661 this failed as well. André -- Jetzt 1 Monat kostenlos! GMX FreeDSL - Telefonanschluss + DSL für nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://dsl.gmx.de/?ac=OM.AD.PD003K11308T4569a - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [dev] buildbot builds vs standard builds
Hi Thorsten, Original-Nachricht > Von: Thorsten Ziehm > > where is the problem? (I know I asked this since months and do not get > any detailed answer) :-( You are correct with this. And I was just going to get builds from the buildbots to do some testruns. And here is the first problem: http://termite.go-oo.org/buildbot/builders/Win-XP2/builds/701 The build failed! This is for a regular OOO310_m1 build which should never fail in a somewhat "clean" environment. I'll try to get at least some linux builds: http://termite.go-oo.org/buildbot/builders/Ubuntu-7.10-i386/builds/661 Maybe I can provide a set of test results (diffed to a sun build) - but as said .. this might take some weeks. > As I know there are only a few differences and also differences exists > when running the automated tests with VCL TestTool in different test > environments. And I often told you and other QA members, that is will > not be possible to get the same result of the tests in all environments. > > That the BuildBots can be more identical between SO and OOo builds is > another issue, I think. That this has to be addressed also is also clear > for me. But I want to separate this from the QA part. Same for me. These topics are related, but not the same. To eleminate differences in build environment is one precondidtion to get test results that can be compared. André -- Pt! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger01 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [dev] buildbot builds vs standard builds
Hi Nils, Original-Nachricht > Von: Nils Fuhrmann > Stephan Bergmann schrieb: > > During FOSDEM, Mechtilde told me about a problem the QA community is > > experiencing, namely that buildbot builds (of CWSs) are quite different > > functionality-wise from the standard builds (of milestones and releases, > > often done by Sun Hamburg Release Engineering). Those differences are > > especially apparent in Base, Mechtilde told me. This problem in some > > cases prevents easy testing of a CWS by the QA community, or even > > thorough testing of a CWS in real life by replacing a standard OOo build > > with a buildbot CWS build in (semi-)production use. > > I know that there were some issue regarding QA'ing buildbot builds in > past. To get an idea what the real problem is, we should collect those > issues in detail when they occur to find the root cause for them This is quite like going to the woods and look at each tree seperately to understand, what "the wood" is. > (as we > always do). If those issues still are existent, I would await that this > list is already available somewhere (Mechtilde, do you have such list?). There is no full list, as we would need to do several test runs on sun builds, compare those to testruns done on equivalent buildbot builds - identify the differencens ... You will find differences due to: - different configure settings (this is from my experience the biggest part, as complete functional areas might be missing) - differnt compilers - different build environment - different test environment This would need to be done for at least all the major platforms and at least all cat0 tests. This is a total of some weeks for running, analyzing and comparing tests. > > Really, we should investigate into the concrete list of issues before > thinking about any additional infrastructure. Sorry, this is the totally wrong way of thinking. the correct way was: How can we get more people helping in development (here QA) by using existing infrastructure. We do not need *additional* infrastructure. We just want to use existing buildbots to help with cws testing. -- Jetzt 1 Monat kostenlos! GMX FreeDSL - Telefonanschluss + DSL für nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://dsl.gmx.de/?ac=OM.AD.PD003K11308T4569a - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [dev] Re: [discuss] [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Becoming an (Incubator) Project
Hi, Original-Nachricht > Von: "Charles-H. Schulz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > PS.: I second the proposal for [EMAIL PROTECTED] to become an incubator > > project - but I have no voice on that ;) > > You do, actually :) Ah .. sorry, you are right. I have a voice on that issue. :) So +1 André -- Pt! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [dev] Re: [discuss] [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Becoming an (Incubator) Project
Hi, Original-Nachricht > Von: "Charles-H. Schulz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > I can only second Kay's words. We cannot stay on the users' desktop > the way we do today, as the state of the art is changing. This does > not mean that services such as Google Docs are the necessary answer; I > believe they serve a specific market and so do we. But the key to > OOo's future and relevancy lies in hybrid use cases. This involves an > online strategy combining wikis, online editing tools and so on. Regarding the [EMAIL PROTECTED] project I'd say it is a nice idea. (Fully aware, about what "nice" means). Regarding the OOo's future and relevant use cases - I disagree, that this lies in hybrid desktop / web use cases. Yes - we need to work on that, but this is not the key market to become relevant. The key and relevant use case is integrated workflow with other busines applications (ERP, accounting, controling, project management, CRM ...). André PS.: I second the proposal for [EMAIL PROTECTED] to become an incubator project - but I have no voice on that ;) -- Ist Ihr Browser Vista-kompatibel? Jetzt die neuesten Browser-Versionen downloaden: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/browser - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [dev] charter discussion ?
Hi, Original-Nachricht > Von: "Charles-H. Schulz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > That's some progress, but again, where do Category leads fit? "Product > Development Representative"? Can you confirm something about it? sorry, I obviously neet to prepare an "entry page" so that we can easily find all information. As said - all project memebers (including category leads) are eligible. The difference is in the electorate or constituency. Category leads are mentioned for the electorates: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council/Items/Election_Process_Proposal#Council_Constituencies > > > Well, I don't really agree with that but if in general the NLC does > not see anything wrong with this I won't object... > Do you think we could perhaps discuss this on [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yes, please. But please try to focus on this special topic. It is very hard to follow the discussion on 4 or more lists. André -- GMX Kostenlose Spiele: Einfach online spielen und Spaß haben mit Pastry Passion! http://games.entertainment.gmx.net/de/entertainment/games/free/puzzle/6169196 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [dev] charter discussion ?
Hi Charles, Original-Nachricht > Von: "Charles-H.Schulz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > For eligibility of Cathegory leads: > > they are eligible, as *everey* community member is eligible. > > (if this is not obvious in the current draft, feel free to change > > the wording) > > Thank you, but I have to say that not only this is not obvious, but I > wouldn't even know where to change the wording in the proposal. Could > you please elaborate on this? Your help would be much welcome. http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council/Items/Charter_Proposal 4. Council Members ... 2. Terms Of Service ... 1. Elections 1. Each OpenOffice.org community member is eligible for election. and 3. Each community member is allowed to nominate candidates (including self-nomination). > > more NLC representatives: > ... To me and although it's a bit indirect on the paper NLC > does represent as well the voice of localizers; these people are > developers as well, and one could see this extended to the people in > charge of the QA... but you know all this :-) > > Do you understand my concerns? Yes - I understand, but do not share them ;) Anyway - my voice is not the only one that counts. The proposal (number of representatives) was mainly derived from a suggestion done by khirano at [EMAIL PROTECTED] (sorry, I would need to search for the link). We not not much answers on the topic, comments came from Sophie, Ian Lynch and me (afair). So we had three contributors from NLC commenting (and the discussion open for others to comment). The composition of seats was considered to be "fair" at this time (and nobody argued against this). And - this is also no troll - no matter what group will get how many seats - it always will be "unfair" to some of the groups (at least many might feels so, when thinking about their own group). The council would only be efficient, if all members understand that we are one community that needs to work together and needs to respect each other. This means to listen to the concerns and problems of the "other groups" but heading for compromises at the same time. André -- GMX startet ShortView.de. Hier findest Du Leute mit Deinen Interessen! Jetzt dabei sein: http://www.shortview.de/[EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [dev] charter discussion ?
Hi Charles, Original-Nachricht > Von: "Charles-H. Schulz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > +1 from my side. I would however appreciate a discussion on my > proposal on the eligibility of Category leads and more NLC > representatives (in the Talk section of the charter proposal). Sorry, I found you comments in the talk section just a few days ago and did not comment on it yet. For eligibility of Cathegory leads: they are eligible, as *everey* community member is eligible. (if this is not obvious in the current draft, feel free to change the wording) more NLC representatives: I second your opinion, that NLC is a vers strong and important part of the OOo community, doing a lot of work. And (as I still feel "at home" in the NLC) I'm in favour of a strong position of the NLC in the council. But - every part of the OOo community is important and needs a good representation within the council. If we do not want a "unlimited" number of council members, we had to remove some other seats. No matter how you deal with this - it would be somewhat unfair to any of the groups. I think, two "NLC" representatives are ok, as there is one good thing about NLC: we are used to be multitalents :) Means - people from NLC do not only work in NLC projects, but do a lot of work in other projects (documentation, qa, marketing, development ...) I think, all these can perfectly be represented by other council members (Code / Project contribution reps). The NLC-Representatives may focus on the very special situation of NLC teams (e.g. multi cultural topics, language barriers ...) Hope this answers some of your concerns. André -- Ist Ihr Browser Vista-kompatibel? Jetzt die neuesten Browser-Versionen downloaden: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/browser - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[dev] Re: [discuss] Suggestions for a new Community Council structure
Hi Michael, Original-Nachricht > Von: Michael Meeks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > So far, apparently my mail didn't hit 'discuss' (moderated ?), and got > only a single reply from Cor on the council list. Sorry for not picking up your mail until now. In general I agree, that the election model for the couciul members should change. We have several problems with the current model (problems to find electable candidates who have time to take the work at the council seriously is only one). The council in it's current structure seems very centralistic to me (it's almost built around the project leads). Anyway - it would need time to discuss some rules who should be eligible. An we surely should discuss this. But next council elections are overdue, for more than a year now (if not two). So we really should go on with new elections. > > I can't believe the astonishing apathy is a ringing endorsement of the > existing structure or community, but perhaps a scepticism that anything > will ever change and/or that discussion is even worthwhile :-) Hmm ... no. I rather think, the interest in the councils work is rather low within the community. I still think, that the work of the council is not very effective - but this indeed not what the council is thinking. André -- Pt! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
