Re: [OSM-dev] broken utf8 in minute changeset 200907140650

2009-07-16 Thread Richard Fairhurst

Richard Fairhurst wrote:
 Don't bother, I hope to be committing the fix this evening.

It's committed and live now - will be interested to hear if it fixes the
issue for Linux FP users.

cheers
Richard
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Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] Circular relation by user mapper_07

2009-07-16 Thread Chris Browet
2009/7/16 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org

 Hi,

 Shaun McDonald wrote:

 Yes you can do it, though I don't have a good reason for doing such a
 thing.


 I don't have an idea where one would add a relation as a member to itself,
 but circular references could e.g. happen if you were to create a relation
 for a city and then have another city as a member with role=twinned_with -
 this would obviously be circular.


I'd be curious to know how the api calculates the bounding box of such a
relation, assuming the api definition is the smallest bbox containg all
children bbox'es.

Does the api have special tests to avoid infinite recursion?

- Chris -
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Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] Circular relation by user mapper_07

2009-07-16 Thread Chris Browet
2009/7/16 Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com

 On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 10:41 AM, Chris Browetc...@semperpax.com wrote:
  2009/7/16 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org
  Chris Browet wrote:
 
  I'd be curious to know how the api calculates the bounding box of such
 a
  relation
 
 
 
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Protocol_Version_0.6#Bounding_box_computation
 
  assuming the api definition is the smallest bbox containg all
  children bbox'es.
 
  It isn't.
 
 
  Ok. If I understand well, it adds to a relation bbox all the nodes and
 ways
  of children relations (+ the pure ways and nodes, of course).
 
  That won't remove the problem of infinite recursion: R1 - R2 - R1; it
 will
  add to R1 all ways/nodes of R2, which itself will add all ways/nodes of
 R1,
  which will...
 
  Bottomline question is: How does the api handle the case?

 short answer: it doesn't.

 long answer: the position taken by the API for both map calls and
 changeset bboxes is that relations don't have physical extent - only
 their node and way members do. bboxes are calculated only from the
 immediate members of the relation, so recursion is necessary.


Err... I'm feeling thick, today...

You are saying that the api IS recursing thru the children relations and
that the api also has an infinite loop problem, right?
OTOH, you saying only from the immediate members, would mean it DOESN'T
recurse thru the relations?? (But it cannot be that or what would happen
with relations only comprising relations).

Sorry for bothering about this, I'd just like to be sure on how to best
handle the case...

- Chris -
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Re: [OSM-dev] broken utf8 in minute changeset 200907140650

2009-07-16 Thread Tom Hughes
On 16/07/09 11:55, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
 Roland Olbricht wrote:
 The letters Ä, Ö, Ü, ß don't work at all.

 When you say don't work at all, what happens? Do they vanish, or do the
 wrong characters stay around, or...?

Your test app says, for Ä:

Flash stores: c3 20 1e
Server received: C3 83 E2 80 9E

Now Ä is 0xc4 in 8859-1 which encodes to UTF-8 as 0xc3 0x84 so something 
is going wrong at the first stage still.

Tom

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Re: [OSM-dev] broken utf8 in minute changeset 200907140650

2009-07-16 Thread Richard Fairhurst

Tom Hughes wrote:
 Your test app says, for Ä:

 Flash stores: c3 20 1e
 Server received: C3 83 E2 80 9E

 Now Ä is 0xc4 in 8859-1 which encodes to UTF-8 as 0xc3 0x84 so 
 something is going wrong at the first stage still.

Right.

0x201E is Unicode for „ (double low-9 quotation mark).
„ is 0x84 in ye olde traditional Windows character set (CP1252).
The proper UTF8 is 0xC3 0x84.

Similarly, Roland (from earlier e-mail) is getting 0xC3 0x2013 when typing
Ö.
0x2013 is Unicode for – (en dash).
– is 0x96 in CP1252.
The proper UTF8 is 0xC3 0x96.

So if I read this right, Flash is sometimes _triple_-encoding characters. It
gets Ä, encodes it as UTF8 (0xC3 0x84), then encodes the 0x84 again as
Unicode (0x201E). All of this is within the textField. Then, of course, it
encodes the lot again when transmitting to the server.

I hope Adobe's programmers have a 24-hour armed guard.

cheers
Richard
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Re: [OSM-dev] broken utf8 in minute changeset 200907140650

2009-07-16 Thread Steve Hosgood

Steve Hosgood wrote:
I'm getting better results. The only unicode characters needed for 
Welsh are the vowels with circumflexes.
I've tested all those that occur (â, ô, w^, y^) and they all seem ok. 
Cursor works OK, deleting and backspacing seem right too.

Thanks, Richard.


I do notice a possible glitch.
Changing the name of a road in Potlatch does not seem to set any 
unsaved change flag.
So if you leave the editor by means of the - (go back) button on the 
browser, Potlatch doesn't put up its Unsaved Changes - Are you Sure 
screen like it usually does.



Steve


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[OSM-dev] Coastlines and water - contact and technical

2009-07-16 Thread Ben Supnik
Hi Y'all,

First, does anyone know the ongoing status of the coastline error 
checker?  The error check appears not to have run on newer data than 
May, and the wiki page indicates no contact since June.  Does anyone 
know either what the status of the error checker is or who to contact 
about it?

Second, a technical question: from what I read, Mapnik does not yet 
support multipolygons.

My question is...how does Mapnik know the order of islands and lakes 
inside land?  I was looking at an island inside a lake...both ways are 
closed clockwise looping ways (the outer one being water and the inner 
one being land).  There are no layer keys on the ways.

Is there some other clue that can be used to determine the nesting 
relationship when the relation is not considered?  (Perhaps a simple 
containment or size ordering is used?)

Thanks!
Ben

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Re: [OSM-dev] Coastlines and water - contact and technical

2009-07-16 Thread Lennard
Ben Supnik wrote:

 First, does anyone know the ongoing status of the coastline error 
 checker?  The error check appears not to have run on newer data than 
 May, and the wiki page indicates no contact since June.  Does anyone 
 know either what the status of the error checker is or who to contact 
 about it?

The maintainer has been contacted weeks ago, but the server it ran on 
(hypercube) was then still down. I don't know the current status, and 
whether he has looked into it.

 Second, a technical question: from what I read, Mapnik does not yet 
 support multipolygons.

Sure it does, just not every iteration of the 'advanced multipolygon' 
that's described on the wiki page. A basic 'area with holes in it' works 
just fine.

 My question is...how does Mapnik know the order of islands and lakes 
 inside land?  I was looking at an island inside a lake...both ways are 

Your run of the mill multipolygon relation with an outer and one or more 
inner role ways.


-- 
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[OSM-dev] What subset of UTF-8 should the API accept?

2009-07-16 Thread Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
The OSM protocol specifies that it accepts UTF-8 data, but in reality
it only accepts the subset of UTF-8 that the XML parser being used
doesn't barf on, see:

http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2009-July/016165.html

This issue surfaces e.g. here:

http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/2072

So what subset should the API specify? If it's to accept full UTF-8
all the tools that parse the XML will have to learn to deal with
control characters.

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Re: [OSM-dev] Coastlines and water - contact and technical

2009-07-16 Thread Frederik Ramm
Hi,

Lennard wrote:
 Second, a technical question: from what I read, Mapnik does not yet 
 support multipolygons.
 
 Sure it does, just not every iteration of the 'advanced multipolygon' 
 that's described on the wiki page. A basic 'area with holes in it' works 
 just fine.

Has the bug where osm2pgsql would break these in --slim mode (when 
adding updates) been fixed?

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-dev] Coastlines and water - contact and technical

2009-07-16 Thread Ben Supnik
Hi Lennard,

Lennard wrote:
 The maintainer has been contacted weeks ago, but the server it ran on 
 (hypercube) was then still down. I don't know the current status, and 
 whether he has looked into it.

 Sure it does, just not every iteration of the 'advanced multipolygon' 
 that's described on the wiki page. A basic 'area with holes in it' works 
 just fine.



  Your run of the mill multipolygon relation with an outer and one or
  more inner role ways.

Thanks for the clarifications...I was going by what's on the Wiki, which 
is apparently out of date.

cheers
Ben
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Scenery blog: http://xplanescenery.blogspot.com/
Plugin SDK: http://www.xsquawkbox.net/xpsdk/
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Scenery mailing list: x-plane-scen...@yahoogroups.com
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Re: [OSM-dev] What subset of UTF-8 should the API accept?

2009-07-16 Thread Andy Allan
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 7:07 PM, Ævar Arnfjörð
Bjarmasonava...@gmail.com wrote:
 The OSM protocol specifies that it accepts UTF-8 data, but in reality
 it only accepts the subset of UTF-8 that the XML parser being used
 doesn't barf on, see:

 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2009-July/016165.html

 This issue surfaces e.g. here:

 http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/2072

 So what subset should the API specify?

Umm, I put that in the thread you just linked to. See
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2009-July/016154.html

 If it's to accept full UTF-8
 all the tools that parse the XML will have to learn to deal with
 control characters.

Which, by definition, isn't possible in XML.

Cheers,
Andy

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Re: [OSM-dev] Coastlines and water - contact and technical

2009-07-16 Thread Lennard
Frederik Ramm wrote:

 Has the bug where osm2pgsql would break these in --slim mode (when 
 adding updates) been fixed?

I believe some of the issues have been fixed a little while ago, but 
I'll leave it to the osm2pgsql maintainers to give a definitive answer.


-- 
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Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] Circular relation by user mapper_07

2009-07-16 Thread andrzej zaborowski
2009/7/16 Chris Browet c...@semperpax.com:
 2009/7/16 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org
 Chris Browet wrote:
 I'd be curious to know how the api calculates the bounding box of such a
 relation

 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Protocol_Version_0.6#Bounding_box_computation

 assuming the api definition is the smallest bbox containg all
 children bbox'es.

 It isn't.


 Ok. If I understand well, it adds to a relation bbox all the nodes and ways
 of children relations (+ the pure ways and nodes, of course).

 That won't remove the problem of infinite recursion: R1 - R2 - R1; it will
 add to R1 all ways/nodes of R2, which itself will add all ways/nodes of R1,
 which will...

The spec says
* adding a relation member or changing tag values causes all node and
way members to be added to the bounding box.
..but when you reach R1 you know every way or node member of this
relation has already been added to the bbox or will be added when we
return from adding R2 so it's safe to just return doing nothing.  I
don't know whether the API implements this.

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] Circular relation by user mapper_07

2009-07-16 Thread Blars Blarson
In article 7ec79eed0907160140t2c1b9ffdmc64c27d7aca67...@mail.gmail.com
c...@semperpax.com writes:
I'd be curious to know how the api calculates the bounding box of such a
relation, assuming the api definition is the smallest bbox containg all
children bbox'es.

Trapi handles this by keeping a hash of all the relations that have
been seen processing this relation already.  (It also does relation
members first, creating a hash of way members to process.)

There are some relations that are in a huge number of tiles.
-- 
Blars Blarson   blar...@scd.debian.net

With Microsoft, failure is not an option.  It is a standard feature.

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Re: [OSM-dev] Fw: [Geowanking] [Fwd: [Ann] LinkedGeoData.org]

2009-07-16 Thread andrzej zaborowski
2009/7/15 Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com:
 From discussion about linkedgeodata.org/ on geowanking...

 From: Sean Gillies sean.gill...@gmail.com
 To: geowank...@geowanking.org

 I'm skeptical about RDF too, but the linked geodata folks are adding some
 extra value (at least for a particular group of users): hypertext, so that
 you or your software can follow your nose through
 linked nodes and ways without having to know an API specific to OSM, and
 persistent URIs. I'm not knocking OSM's API, but

 http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/node/264695865

 isn't meant to be a cool URI for the Cafe B'liebig, is it? Requests for
 the version 0.5 URIs like http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.5/node/1 return
 a 403, which suggests to me that I shouldn't get too
 attached to the 0.6 ones. Of course, URIs like

 http://linkedgeodata.org/triplify/node/264695865

 have their own issue. Stamping the name of the semantic web framework you
 happen to be using today on the URIs you want to make future-proof isn't a
 cool thing to do.

 Sean has a very good point here about the permanence of URIs. Permalinks to
 OSM objects permits integration of these identifiers into other systems. At
 the moment, we don't have permalinks, because the API version is included in
 the URL. Perhaps the API could also support read-only, permalinks for
 objects, like http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/node/264695865

I don't believe linking to a XML snippet defining an object in osm is
extremely useful, but I can see other uses for objects in OSM being
universally addressable in the URL space (e.g. comparing whether two
objects are the same).  In that case the word api probably shouldn't
appear in the URL either and also there's no point in it being a http
URL, so why not define something like osm://openstreetmap.org/node/XXX
as being the URL of a node in OSM.  This could then be easily
translated by client into a http URL for the xml snippet or the
history web page for the object.

Cheers

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[OSM-dev] Rendering of long street names for short streets

2009-07-16 Thread Arne Goetje
Hi list,

in Taiwan we have the situation, that street names may be too long to be
rendered on the map. In addition, we'd like to keep the map bilingual
(Chinese, Romanized/English), which makes the names rendered on the map
even longer. How can we give the renderer some hints how to abbreviate
the street names properly in different zoom levels?

Would it be possible to specify multiple alternative entries in the
'name' tag and the renderer picks whatever fits onto the map?

For example:
A very common naming scheme for small alleys is to number them according
to their location on the main road. When a lane/alley is located between
house numbers 8 and 12, it would carry the number 10.
The naming scheme is:
 * Main Road (路/街/道) -- optionally with Section (段)
  * Chinese: 介壽路二段
  * Full romanized/English name: Jieshou Road Section 2 (or: Section 2
Jieshou Road)
  * Abbr.: Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2 (or: Sec. 2 Jieshou Rd.)
 * Lane (巷)
  * Full Chinese name: 介壽路二段325巷
  * Full romanized/English name: Lane 325, Jieshou Road Section 2
  * Chinese abbr.: 325巷 (rendered next to the associated main road on
Chinese maps)
  * Romanized/English abbr.: Ln. 325, Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2
  * Further abbrevation: Ln. 325 (rendered next to the associated main road)
 * Alley (弄)
  * Full Chinese name: 介壽路二段325巷1弄
  * Full romanized/English name: Alley 1, Lane 325, Jieshou Road Section 2
  * Chinese abbr.: 325巷1弄 (or: 1弄 rendered next to the associated lane)
  * Romanized/English abbr.: Aly. 1, Ln. 325, Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2
  * Further abbrevation.: Aly. 1, Ln. 325 (or: Aly. 1 rendered next to
the associated lane)
 * Cross-Alley (衖)
  * Full Chinese name: 介壽路二段325巷1弄1衖
  * Full romanized/English name: Alley 1-1, Lane 325, Jieshou Road Section 2
  * Chinese abbr.: 325巷1弄1衖 (or: 1弄1衖, or: 1衖)
  * Romanized/English abbr.: Aly. 1-1, Ln. 325, Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2
  * Further abbr.: Aly. 1-1, Ln. 325 (or: Aly. 1-1)

Now: a user would search for either the full Chinese name, or the most
complete romanized/English abbreviation, but not the full
romanized/English name (nobody uses that one).
So, the database and routing engine would need to know those entries:
 * Chinese: 介壽路二段325巷1弄1衖 (actually it would need the full
address, which would include city and county, except for bigger cities,
there the county is omitted)
 * Romanized/English: Aly. 1-1, Ln. 325, Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2

On the map however, the lanes and alleys are usually quite short. We do
prefer to render the names bilingual, i.e. Chinese name
(romanized/English name) - 介壽路二段325巷1弄1衖 (Aly. 1-1, Ln. 325,
Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2), but fall back to Chinese only if the alleys are
even too short for the abbreviations below (Sometimes alleys are just 20
Meters long).
So, it would be nice if we could tag the roads with a list of
alternatives for the renderer to pick from in order to render the street
name according to the zoom level.
 e.g.:
  * 介壽路二段325巷1弄1衖 (Aly. 1-1, Ln. 325, Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2)
  * 325巷1弄1衖 (Aly. 1-1, Ln. 325)
  * 1弄1衖 (Aly. 1-1)
  * 325巷1弄1衖
  * 1弄1衖
  * 1衖

For the rendering options: just put them all in the 'name' tag,
separated by ';' ?

For the rendering position, I was thinking: maybe this could be done
with relations?
E.g.: 介壽路二段325巷1弄1衖 is a member of 介壽路二段325巷1弄, which is
a member of 介壽路二段325巷, which is a member of 介壽路二段, which is a
member of 八德市 (city), which is a member of 桃園縣 (county).

If we would build up relations like that and also include the house
numbers, would we be able to find the house if we provide the full
address in one string (e.g. 桃園縣八德市介壽路二段325巷1弄1衖39號)? Or
would we need to tag each house with the full address individually?

How about postal codes? Also use relations for that? (E.g. a relation
for postal code 33444 would include all the roads, lanes, alleys and
houses)?

Would Mapnik/Osmarender be able to handle such constructs?

Cheers
Arne
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Re: [OSM-dev] Rendering of long street names for short streets

2009-07-16 Thread Eugene Alvin Villar
I've actually been thinking of suggesting an :abbr suffix key to all
name-accepting tags (name, name:en, name:fr, alt_name, int_name, etc.) and
the values are a semicolon-separated list of abbreviations. This is
backwards compatible since existing tools can still use the base name tags
and ignore the :abbr tags. But for renderers and namefinder tools that need
abbreviated names, then can then look into the :abbr tags and select the one
which fits the space or matches a query.

Example:

name=Epifanio delos Santos Avenue
name:abbr=Epifanio delos Santos Ave.;E. delos Santos Ave.;EDSA

name=Asian Development Bank Headquarters
name:abbr=ADB HQ;ADB

Another advantage is that this frees the alt_name key for truly alternate
names. Some people place the abbreviation/acronym into the alt_name which
doesn't seem correct since the abbreviation is still the same name, just
shortened, and not an alternate.

Example:

name=Sen. Gil J. Puyat Avenue
name:abbr=Sen. Gil J. Puyat Ave.;Sen. Gil Puyat Ave.;Gil Puyat Ave.;Gil
Puyat
alt_name=Buendia Avenue
alt_name:abbr=Buendia Ave.;Buendia
old_name=Buendia Avenue
old_name:abbr=Buendia Ave.;Buendia

I haven't thought yet of how to handle standard abbreviations (like Avenue
- Ave., Street - St., Road - Rd., North - N.) so that the abbr: tags
need not specify these explicitly.


On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 11:10 AM, Arne Goetje a...@linux.org.tw wrote:

 Hi list,

 in Taiwan we have the situation, that street names may be too long to be
 rendered on the map. In addition, we'd like to keep the map bilingual
 (Chinese, Romanized/English), which makes the names rendered on the map
 even longer. How can we give the renderer some hints how to abbreviate
 the street names properly in different zoom levels?

 Would it be possible to specify multiple alternative entries in the
 'name' tag and the renderer picks whatever fits onto the map?

 For example:
 A very common naming scheme for small alleys is to number them according
 to their location on the main road. When a lane/alley is located between
 house numbers 8 and 12, it would carry the number 10.
 The naming scheme is:
  * Main Road (路/街/道) -- optionally with Section (段)
  * Chinese: 介壽路二段
  * Full romanized/English name: Jieshou Road Section 2 (or: Section 2
 Jieshou Road)
  * Abbr.: Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2 (or: Sec. 2 Jieshou Rd.)
  * Lane (巷)
  * Full Chinese name: 介壽路二段325巷
  * Full romanized/English name: Lane 325, Jieshou Road Section 2
  * Chinese abbr.: 325巷 (rendered next to the associated main road on
 Chinese maps)
  * Romanized/English abbr.: Ln. 325, Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2
  * Further abbrevation: Ln. 325 (rendered next to the associated main road)
  * Alley (弄)
  * Full Chinese name: 介壽路二段325巷1弄
  * Full romanized/English name: Alley 1, Lane 325, Jieshou Road Section 2
  * Chinese abbr.: 325巷1弄 (or: 1弄 rendered next to the associated lane)
  * Romanized/English abbr.: Aly. 1, Ln. 325, Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2
  * Further abbrevation.: Aly. 1, Ln. 325 (or: Aly. 1 rendered next to
 the associated lane)
  * Cross-Alley (衖)
  * Full Chinese name: 介壽路二段325巷1弄1衖
  * Full romanized/English name: Alley 1-1, Lane 325, Jieshou Road Section 2
  * Chinese abbr.: 325巷1弄1衖 (or: 1弄1衖, or: 1衖)
  * Romanized/English abbr.: Aly. 1-1, Ln. 325, Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2
  * Further abbr.: Aly. 1-1, Ln. 325 (or: Aly. 1-1)

 Now: a user would search for either the full Chinese name, or the most
 complete romanized/English abbreviation, but not the full
 romanized/English name (nobody uses that one).
 So, the database and routing engine would need to know those entries:
  * Chinese: 介壽路二段325巷1弄1衖 (actually it would need the full
 address, which would include city and county, except for bigger cities,
 there the county is omitted)
  * Romanized/English: Aly. 1-1, Ln. 325, Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2

 On the map however, the lanes and alleys are usually quite short. We do
 prefer to render the names bilingual, i.e. Chinese name
 (romanized/English name) - 介壽路二段325巷1弄1衖 (Aly. 1-1, Ln. 325,
 Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2), but fall back to Chinese only if the alleys are
 even too short for the abbreviations below (Sometimes alleys are just 20
 Meters long).
 So, it would be nice if we could tag the roads with a list of
 alternatives for the renderer to pick from in order to render the street
 name according to the zoom level.
  e.g.:
  * 介壽路二段325巷1弄1衖 (Aly. 1-1, Ln. 325, Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2)
  * 325巷1弄1衖 (Aly. 1-1, Ln. 325)
  * 1弄1衖 (Aly. 1-1)
  * 325巷1弄1衖
  * 1弄1衖
  * 1衖

 For the rendering options: just put them all in the 'name' tag,
 separated by ';' ?

 For the rendering position, I was thinking: maybe this could be done
 with relations?
 E.g.: 介壽路二段325巷1弄1衖 is a member of 介壽路二段325巷1弄, which is
 a member of 介壽路二段325巷, which is a member of 介壽路二段, which is a
 member of 八德市 (city), which is a member of 桃園縣 (county).

 If we would build up relations like that and also include the house
 numbers, would we be able to find the house if we provide the full
 address in one string (e.g. 

Re: [OSM-dev] Rendering of long street names for short streets

2009-07-16 Thread Marcus Wolschon
On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 5:33 AM, Eugene Alvin Villarsea...@gmail.com wrote:
 I've actually been thinking of suggesting an :abbr suffix key to all
 name-accepting tags (name, name:en, name:fr, alt_name, int_name, etc.) and
 the values are a semicolon-separated list of abbreviations. This is
 backwards compatible since existing tools can still use the base name tags
 and ignore the :abbr tags. But for renderers and namefinder tools that need
 abbreviated names, then can then look into the :abbr tags and select the one
 which fits the space or matches a query.


That would be a lot of redundant data considering the standard-abbreviations.
Also think about the fact the abbreviations are language-dependent.
So there are different abbreviations based on what language-variant of
the name you are using.

Marcus

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Re: [josm-dev] Walking Papers Plugin

2009-07-16 Thread Frederik Ramm
Hi,

Frederik Ramm wrote:
 I have committed a new and rather experimental walking papers plugin.

Mike Migurski has kindly added some parameters to the scan.php page so 
that the plugin should now be able to detect the range correctly. It is 
still a rough first draft and I'm sure many things can be improved but I 
think we can now have some users try it out. I'll make an announcement 
on the talk list.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33

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