Re: [OSM-dev] API/XAPI caching proxy server

2010-12-15 Thread Tom Hughes

On 15/12/10 21:35, Wyo wrote:

Tom Hughes wrote:

I tried it when I first got your email and I've just tried again and on
both occasions data was loading just fine - typical time to download a
chunk of data is 10-30s at worst.


Why then do I get it all the time? Since I've read your answer about 10
min ago, I tried it without any success. I just now started from scratch
at http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=49.55544&lon=5.09523&zoom=17,
one shift of the map and I hit the "Couldn't load map".


It looks (based on the IP your mail was sent from) like you have been 
rate limited.


I'm not sure what sort of mapping you're doing but it does look like you 
were fetching a lot of data - there seems to be a new request every few 
seconds.


Unfortunately due to some issues with Flash P2 isn't able to report 
errors very well at the moment, which is something we are working on fixing.


Tom

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Re: [OSM-dev] API/XAPI caching proxy server

2010-12-15 Thread Tom Hughes

On 15/12/10 21:58, Ian Dees wrote:


Well the link you sent wasn't for P2 editing...


It is if you have P2 set as your default editor ;-)

Tom

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[OSM-dev] Fwd: API/XAPI caching proxy server

2010-12-15 Thread steve brown
-- Forwarded message --
From: steve brown 
Date: 15 December 2010 22:05
Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] API/XAPI caching proxy server
To: Ian Dees 




On 15 December 2010 21:58, Ian Dees  wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Otto Wyss  wrote:
>
>>  I just tried that link now (~10 minutes after you) and it took roughly
>>> 15 seconds to get map data back. There are no Yahoo imagery tiles, so
>>> the screen is filled with "We're sorry, the data you have requested is
>>> unavailable.", but the OSM data vectors are sitting happily on top of
>>> those. Perhaps you are mistaking the lack of imagery for the lack of OSM
>>> data?
>>>
>>
>> Believe me I know when I see a popup box. Besides I've the Bing map as a
>> background. Do you really use Potlatch2?
>>
>>
> Well the link you sent wasn't for P2 editing...
>
> When I use P2 (
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?editor=potlatch2&lat=49.55544&lon=5.09523&zoom=17),
> the response was even faster. Bing imagery finished loading after the OSM
> data was shown.
>
> Perhaps your ISP is having problems getting your packets to the OSM
> servers? Do you have problems with the wiki or tile servers ever?
>
> No problems here either. Wyo, it appears to be just you. Sorry :(

Steve
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Re: [OSM-dev] API/XAPI caching proxy server

2010-12-15 Thread Ian Dees
On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Otto Wyss  wrote:

> I just tried that link now (~10 minutes after you) and it took roughly
>> 15 seconds to get map data back. There are no Yahoo imagery tiles, so
>> the screen is filled with "We're sorry, the data you have requested is
>> unavailable.", but the OSM data vectors are sitting happily on top of
>> those. Perhaps you are mistaking the lack of imagery for the lack of OSM
>> data?
>>
>
> Believe me I know when I see a popup box. Besides I've the Bing map as a
> background. Do you really use Potlatch2?
>
>
Well the link you sent wasn't for P2 editing...

When I use P2 (
http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?editor=potlatch2&lat=49.55544&lon=5.09523&zoom=17),
the response was even faster. Bing imagery finished loading after the OSM
data was shown.

Perhaps your ISP is having problems getting your packets to the OSM servers?
Do you have problems with the wiki or tile servers ever?
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Re: [OSM-dev] API/XAPI caching proxy server

2010-12-15 Thread Ian Dees
On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 3:35 PM, Wyo  wrote:

> Tom Hughes wrote:
>
>> I tried it when I first got your email and I've just tried again and on
>> both occasions data was loading just fine - typical time to download a
>> chunk of data is 10-30s at worst.
>>
>>  Why then do I get it all the time? Since I've read your answer about 10
> min ago, I tried it without any success. I just now started from scratch at
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=49.55544&lon=5.09523&zoom=17, one
> shift of the map and I hit the "Couldn't load map".
>
>
I just tried that link now (~10 minutes after you) and it took roughly 15
seconds to get map data back. There are no Yahoo imagery tiles, so the
screen is filled with "We're sorry, the data you have requested is
unavailable.", but the OSM data vectors are sitting happily on top of those.
Perhaps you are mistaking the lack of imagery for the lack of OSM data?
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Re: [OSM-dev] API/XAPI caching proxy server

2010-12-15 Thread Wyo

Tom Hughes wrote:

I tried it when I first got your email and I've just tried again and on
both occasions data was loading just fine - typical time to download a
chunk of data is 10-30s at worst.

Why then do I get it all the time? Since I've read your answer about 10 min ago, 
I tried it without any success. I just now started from scratch at 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=49.55544&lon=5.09523&zoom=17, one shift of 
the map and I hit the "Couldn't load map".


Wyo


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Re: [OSM-dev] API/XAPI caching proxy server

2010-12-15 Thread Tom Hughes

On 15/12/10 18:41, Wyo wrote:


Well just about now it's impossible to work, in Potlatch2 I always get
"Could'n load map". I've save my changes (that worked), left to viewing
and again entered editing. The second shift of the map again brought the
"Could'n load map". From now on till about 22:00h it's not possible to
map or only with rather large pauses in between.


I tried it when I first got your email and I've just tried again and on 
both occasions data was loading just fine - typical time to download a 
chunk of data is 10-30s at worst.


Tom

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Re: [OSM-dev] API/XAPI caching proxy server

2010-12-15 Thread Igor Brejc
Hi,

Although I ranted before about the high barriers to entry in using the OSM
data, I agree with Frederik on this one. With limited resources providing a
good quality data query service isn't really a priority.

I've implemented support for XAPI in both Kosmos and Maperitive and it's a
flaky service, but since it's free, I and all of the users of my software
have to put up with it. On the other hand, if I were to provide a commercial
service and start making money out of it, I would sure set up my own
XAPI-like thing. Which I think many do, but for their own private/commercial
purposes, so you don't get to hear about it.

Maybe writing a nice letter to Steve C. at MS asking for some server
infrastructure would help? ;)

Regards,
Igor

On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 8:10 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
> On 12/15/10 19:54, Wyo wrote:
>
>> Just tell me, how many people, who don't get paid for the work, have set
>> up their own XAPI server? A handful or a dozens, wordwide? Sorry forgive
>> me my harsh words, yet the current procedure to set up an XAPI server is
>> useless. For most interested people this is simply out of reach.
>>
>
> There are many things I am interested in but which are out of reach for me.
> I guess I'll either have to work on bringing them within reach, or I'll have
> to live with them being out of reach.
>
> Sure it's a nice thing to be able to download a data set of all pizza
> joints in Spain with one simple command, but time and money has to be
> invested to make it possible - money to buy servers, time to install and
> maintain servers, time to write and maintain the software.
>
> If I were an OSM admin, and I'm not, I'd divert resources away from
> non-essential services like that and into more power for people actually
> editing our data any time.
>
> If there are so many people who would like to have a well-working XAPI
> server or similar, let them get together, find a sponsor (that may also be
> some university that allows the group to use a server there), write the
> required software and just do it. They don't need support from OSM, OSMF,
> OSM Admins or anyone to get it done.
>
> If this hasn't happened until now, then that's a clear sign that there is
> not enough interest or not enough willingness to invest time and money in
> this.
>
> Sitting there any saying "I think OSM should make my life easier" isn't
> going to get anything accomplished.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
>
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Re: [OSM-dev] API/XAPI caching proxy server

2010-12-15 Thread Frederik Ramm

Hi,

On 12/15/10 19:54, Wyo wrote:

Just tell me, how many people, who don't get paid for the work, have set
up their own XAPI server? A handful or a dozens, wordwide? Sorry forgive
me my harsh words, yet the current procedure to set up an XAPI server is
useless. For most interested people this is simply out of reach.


There are many things I am interested in but which are out of reach for 
me. I guess I'll either have to work on bringing them within reach, or 
I'll have to live with them being out of reach.


Sure it's a nice thing to be able to download a data set of all pizza 
joints in Spain with one simple command, but time and money has to be 
invested to make it possible - money to buy servers, time to install and 
maintain servers, time to write and maintain the software.


If I were an OSM admin, and I'm not, I'd divert resources away from 
non-essential services like that and into more power for people actually 
editing our data any time.


If there are so many people who would like to have a well-working XAPI 
server or similar, let them get together, find a sponsor (that may also 
be some university that allows the group to use a server there), write 
the required software and just do it. They don't need support from OSM, 
OSMF, OSM Admins or anyone to get it done.


If this hasn't happened until now, then that's a clear sign that there 
is not enough interest or not enough willingness to invest time and 
money in this.


Sitting there any saying "I think OSM should make my life easier" isn't 
going to get anything accomplished.


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-dev] API/XAPI caching proxy server

2010-12-15 Thread Wyo

Frederik Ramm wrote:

You're right that XAPI is in this thread's subject, but Wyo explicitly
talked about mapping, for which XAPI is not required.

I've talked about API/XAPI as you can see in the subject. And at least during 
high volume hours the API server is already on the brink, e.g. just now. But if 
you thing API isn't a problem I can easily drop that.



... Anyone who is unhappy with the performance of XAPI *can* set
up their own mirror server by using the minutely diffs we publish

While you have technically right, that's completely nuts on the practical side. 
Not everyone has his own server. Most hosting services don't provide a postgres 
DB (this rules out PostGIS). And downloading OSM files in the gigs size is 
something not everybody likes very much.


Just tell me, how many people, who don't get paid for the work, have set up 
their own XAPI server? A handful or a dozens, wordwide? Sorry forgive me my 
harsh words, yet the current procedure to set up an XAPI server is useless. For 
most interested people this is simply out of reach.


Wyo


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Re: [OSM-dev] API/XAPI caching proxy server

2010-12-15 Thread Wyo

Tom Hughes wrote:

Oh please, do stop talking bollocks. I've actually been doing quite a
bit of mapping the last few weeks at all sorts of different times and
it's been absolutely fine.

Well just about now it's impossible to work, in Potlatch2 I always get "Could'n 
load map". I've save my changes (that worked), left to viewing and again entered 
editing. The second shift of the map again brought the "Could'n load map". From 
now on till about 22:00h it's not possible to map or only with rather large 
pauses in between.


Wyo


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Re: [OSM-dev] API/XAPI caching proxy server

2010-12-15 Thread Stefan de Konink

On Wed, 15 Dec 2010, Frederik Ramm wrote:


On 12/15/10 08:53, Stefan de Konink wrote:

 It has been done in C already :) By different people, so what are we
 waiting for :)


If there's a working instance that supports the XAPI protocol it should be 
added to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/XAPI#Servers and also added to 
the automatic load balancing.


Sadly we cannot defined partitions there yet.


Stefan

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Re: [OSM-dev] API/XAPI caching proxy server

2010-12-15 Thread Frederik Ramm

Hi,

On 12/15/10 08:53, Stefan de Konink wrote:

It has been done in C already :) By different people, so what are we
waiting for :)


If there's a working instance that supports the XAPI protocol it should 
be added to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/XAPI#Servers and also 
added to the automatic load balancing.


Bye
Frederik

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