[OSM-dev] proposal for mechanical edit reg. power_source + generator:source

[GerdP]

Hi all,

during the last days I've checked hundreds of places where 
OSM inspector 
http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/
complains about something. Doing that I commented
this changeset:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/8335705

As don-vip suggests in his reply I propose a mechanical edit :
remove the tag 
power_source=xyz
if the element also has the tag
generator:source=xyz

as JOSM complains about the usage of power_source.

If this isn't the right list, please forward it.

Gerd




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Re: [OSM-dev] proposal for mechanical edit reg. power_source + generator:source

[Chris Hill]

On 13/10/15 08:56, GerdP wrote:

Hi all,

during the last days I've checked hundreds of places where
OSM inspector
http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/
complains about something. Doing that I commented
this changeset:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/8335705

As don-vip suggests in his reply I propose a mechanical edit :
remove the tag
power_source=xyz
if the element also has the tag
generator:source=xyz

as JOSM complains about the usage of power_source.

If this isn't the right list, please forward it.


The tag you propose to remove is harmless. How do you know which tags 
data consumers are using? When you have confirmed with every data 
consumer that the change you propose will not affect them, or they have 
agreed to change, then I will agree, until then I disagree with this 
mechanical edit.


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[OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

[GerdP]

Hi all,

I wonder why iD allows to create ways with e.g.
highway=primary;service
or similar combinations?
I think the highway tag (as well as e.g. surface, tracktyp)
are meaningless when they contain lists. 

I understand that this can also be done using other editors,
but most of the cases that I checked showed  iD as the 
used editor.

Gerd



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Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

[Gerd Petermann]

Yes, I understand how this happens, but I don't understand
why iD doesn't prevent this action or at least warns the user.
I am not aware of many tags which regularly contain lists,
so I'd say it would be better to always warn or implement 
a white list for those tags in iD.
I am sure that it already would be a great improvement 
if the 100 most often used tags are checked.

Gerd


> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:11:05 +
> From: j...@betra.is
> To: gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com
> CC: dev@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags
> 
> This can occur when a primary and a service road are joined. iD does not 
> know which one it is and so it concatenates them. iD displays the road 
> then as "Highway" with this combined type as key=value.
> 
> I imagine this could be fairly hard to combat, GUI wise you would need 
> special handling for highway types as some key=value types do contain 
> lists.
> 
> Þann 13.10.2015 08:03, GerdP reit:
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > I wonder why iD allows to create ways with e.g.
> > highway=primary;service
> > or similar combinations?
> > I think the highway tag (as well as e.g. surface, tracktyp)
> > are meaningless when they contain lists.
> > 
> > I understand that this can also be done using other editors,
> > but most of the cases that I checked showed  iD as the
> > used editor.
> > 
> > Gerd
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> > http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/iD-creates-invalid-highway-tags-tp5856854.html
> > Sent from the Developer Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> > 
> > ___
> > dev mailing list
> > dev@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
> 
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Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

[Simon Legner]

Hi!

> Or much more simple:
> Don't allow to combine elements with different
> tags without confirmation.

Here is the relevant GitHub issue:
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2358

Simon

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Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

[Jóhannes Birgir Jensson]

This can occur when a primary and a service road are joined. iD does not 
know which one it is and so it concatenates them. iD displays the road 
then as "Highway" with this combined type as key=value.


I imagine this could be fairly hard to combat, GUI wise you would need 
special handling for highway types as some key=value types do contain 
lists.


Þann 13.10.2015 08:03, GerdP reit:

Hi all,

I wonder why iD allows to create ways with e.g.
highway=primary;service
or similar combinations?
I think the highway tag (as well as e.g. surface, tracktyp)
are meaningless when they contain lists.

I understand that this can also be done using other editors,
but most of the cases that I checked showed  iD as the
used editor.

Gerd



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Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

[Gerd Petermann]

Or much more simple:Don't allow to combine elements with differenttags without 
confirmation. If the user tries that, a dialog shouldshow the differences and 
ask the user what touse, similar to JOSM. 
Merging objects with different tags is an actionthat requires expert knowledge, 
so maybenot something iD should allow unless it allowsto resolve the conflicts 
as well.
Gerd
From: gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com
To: j...@betra.is; dev@openstreetmap.org
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 12:30:54 +0200
Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags




Yes, I understand how this happens, but I don't understand
why iD doesn't prevent this action or at least warns the user.
I am not aware of many tags which regularly contain lists,
so I'd say it would be better to always warn or implement 
a white list for those tags in iD.
I am sure that it already would be a great improvement 
if the 100 most often used tags are checked.

Gerd


> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:11:05 +
> From: j...@betra.is
> To: gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com
> CC: dev@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags
> 
> This can occur when a primary and a service road are joined. iD does not 
> know which one it is and so it concatenates them. iD displays the road 
> then as "Highway" with this combined type as key=value.
> 
> I imagine this could be fairly hard to combat, GUI wise you would need 
> special handling for highway types as some key=value types do contain 
> lists.
> 
> Þann 13.10.2015 08:03, GerdP reit:
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > I wonder why iD allows to create ways with e.g.
> > highway=primary;service
> > or similar combinations?
> > I think the highway tag (as well as e.g. surface, tracktyp)
> > are meaningless when they contain lists.
> > 
> > I understand that this can also be done using other editors,
> > but most of the cases that I checked showed  iD as the
> > used editor.
> > 
> > Gerd
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> > http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/iD-creates-invalid-highway-tags-tp5856854.html
> > Sent from the Developer Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> > 
> > ___
> > dev mailing list
> > dev@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
> 
  

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Re: [OSM-dev] proposal for mechanical edit reg. power_source + generator:source

[Colin Smale]

 

As there is an indefinite number of data consumers, this is of course
impossible... How would you ever be able to update the tagging if you
have to get consent or acquiescence from every data consumer? What is
your suggestion for sorting out "spaghetti tagging"? How do we ever do
any "refactoring"? 

Sorry for the IT terms, but discussions analogous to this one come up
extremely regularly in the IT business, and the bottom line is that the
bullet needs to be bitten and you have to get your wallet out to sort
things out occasionally. If you don't, your maintenance costs will
sooner or later inexorably spiral out of control. And anyone who says
that this can be prevented by careful planning, doesn't understand how
agile businesses need to be to survive. The costs can be somewhat
mitigated by appropriate architectural decisions (analogous to having
tagging schemes that are e.g. extensible and easily maintainable) but
never eliminated entirely. 

So where do we go from here? Manual review, re-survey and retagging? 

//colin 

On 2015-10-13 10:49, Chris Hill wrote: 

> On 13/10/15 08:56, GerdP wrote: 
> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> during the last days I've checked hundreds of places where
>> OSM inspector
>> http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/
>> complains about something. Doing that I commented
>> this changeset:
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/8335705
>> 
>> As don-vip suggests in his reply I propose a mechanical edit :
>> remove the tag
>> power_source=xyz
>> if the element also has the tag
>> generator:source=xyz
>> 
>> as JOSM complains about the usage of power_source.
>> 
>> If this isn't the right list, please forward it.
> The tag you propose to remove is harmless. How do you know which tags data 
> consumers are using? When you have confirmed with every data consumer that 
> the change you propose will not affect them, or they have agreed to change, 
> then I will agree, until then I disagree with this mechanical edit.
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Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

[Andy Townsend]

On 13/10/2015 09:03, GerdP wrote:

Hi all,

I wonder why iD allows to create ways with e.g.
highway=primary;service
or similar combinations?



Whilst there are technical things that editors can do (P2's visual 
indication shows that semicolon values are "wrong" is one example), it's 
not really a technical problem.


New mappers that create something like "highway=primary;service" do so 
because they don't really understand what they're doing yet. It's not 
obvious to new mappers that a road called "High Street" needs to be 
split into several sections if part is primary, part residential and 
part something else.  The only way they're going to find out is if 
something that they see before they start mapping explains this (tricky, 
because it's a bit of an information overload if all they want to do is 
add e.g. a node for a POI).


Also, it's not always possible to pick things like this up within the 
editor at all; for example merging a "highway=residential; 
sidewalk=both" with a "highway=residential" that doesn't yet have the 
sidewalk surveyed.  Did the mapper survey the missing sidewalk or merge 
it my accident?


What we're going to have to keep doing in these cases is spotting new 
mappers and helping them when they get it wrong*.  Editing OSM is 
complicated, especially in detailed urban areas or where a previous 
mapper or import was over-heavy on the multipolygons.


Cheers,

Andy

* which a quick scan of http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussions 
suggests that you're doing already a _lot_, so thanks very much for that!





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Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

[Gerd Petermann]

Hi Andy,

yes, I contacted some editors and typically got positive feedback,
so it is clear to me that nobody intended to create unusable data.

I just don't understand why iD offers a method to combine elements
when this is such a tricky thing. Why would a "beginner" need that?

ciao,
Gerd

> To: dev@openstreetmap.org
> From: ajt1...@gmail.com
> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:02:34 +0100
> Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags
> 
> On 13/10/2015 09:03, GerdP wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I wonder why iD allows to create ways with e.g.
> > highway=primary;service
> > or similar combinations?
> >
> 
> Whilst there are technical things that editors can do (P2's visual 
> indication shows that semicolon values are "wrong" is one example), it's 
> not really a technical problem.
> 
> New mappers that create something like "highway=primary;service" do so 
> because they don't really understand what they're doing yet. It's not 
> obvious to new mappers that a road called "High Street" needs to be 
> split into several sections if part is primary, part residential and 
> part something else.  The only way they're going to find out is if 
> something that they see before they start mapping explains this (tricky, 
> because it's a bit of an information overload if all they want to do is 
> add e.g. a node for a POI).
> 
> Also, it's not always possible to pick things like this up within the 
> editor at all; for example merging a "highway=residential; 
> sidewalk=both" with a "highway=residential" that doesn't yet have the 
> sidewalk surveyed.  Did the mapper survey the missing sidewalk or merge 
> it my accident?
> 
> What we're going to have to keep doing in these cases is spotting new 
> mappers and helping them when they get it wrong*.  Editing OSM is 
> complicated, especially in detailed urban areas or where a previous 
> mapper or import was over-heavy on the multipolygons.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Andy
> 
> * which a quick scan of http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussions 
> suggests that you're doing already a _lot_, so thanks very much for that!
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

[Bryan Housel]

Large portions of the US TIGER import ended up heavily segmented, so merge 
happens to be really important for some places.


> On Oct 13, 2015, at 9:50 AM, Gerd Petermann  
> wrote:
> yes, I contacted some editors and typically got positive feedback,
> so it is clear to me that nobody intended to create unusable data.
> 
> I just don't understand why iD offers a method to combine elements
> when this is such a tricky thing. Why would a "beginner" need that?
> 

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Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

[Jóhannes Birgir Jensson]

Because it is used not just by beginners? I use iD for fly-by edits or 
exploratory wanderings. JOSM for the big bulk stuff (adding every single 
house in a big area)


Þann 13.10.2015 13:50, Gerd Petermann reit:


I just don't understand why iD offers a method to combine elements
when this is such a tricky thing. Why would a "beginner" need that?



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Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

[Bryan Housel]

Yes, this is something I want to fix in iD, but I just haven’t gotten to it.
Priority-wise it’s probably one of the top 5 issues I want to focus on.
Thanks for being patient!

Thanks, Bryan



> On Oct 13, 2015, at 6:30 AM, Gerd Petermann  
> wrote:
> 
> Yes, I understand how this happens, but I don't understand
> why iD doesn't prevent this action or at least warns the user.
> I am not aware of many tags which regularly contain lists,
> so I'd say it would be better to always warn or implement 
> a white list for those tags in iD.
> I am sure that it already would be a great improvement 
> if the 100 most often used tags are checked.
> 

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Re: [OSM-dev] Generating list of interesting places

[John Eldredge]

It would seem that each user would need to provide a checklist of what they 
find interesting, unless you restricted it to the most common topics of 
interest.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On October 9, 2015 3:34:56 AM Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:


Is there already some tool that for given area generates list of
interesting places (museums, caves, old trees, famous tourism
attractions, monuments, etc etc) based on OSM data?


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Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

[Gmail]

The TIGER argument is the only one I found sensible for having a merge function 
just one click away. But one could argue that this is a local case.
Would be cool if one could personalize the functions available on the ID flower.

Le 13 octobre 2015 16:30:14 UTC+02:00, Bryan Housel  a 
écrit :
>Large portions of the US TIGER import ended up heavily segmented, so
>merge happens to be really important for some places.
>
>
>> On Oct 13, 2015, at 9:50 AM, Gerd Petermann
> wrote:
>> yes, I contacted some editors and typically got positive feedback,
>> so it is clear to me that nobody intended to create unusable data.
>> 
>> I just don't understand why iD offers a method to combine elements
>> when this is such a tricky thing. Why would a "beginner" need that?
>> 
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-dev] proposal for mechanical edit reg. power_source + generator:source

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 10/13/2015 08:10 PM, Gerd Petermann wrote:
> my motivation is simple:
> JOSM claims that the old tag should not be used,
> the wiki is also clear:
> "Use generator:source
> =*instead."

Yes, but JOSM presets and Wiki pages are not made by the community as a
whole, and can never serve as a reason for running a mechanical edit. It
requires only a very small number of people to devise a silly preset or
"vote" a tag to be deprecated; this absolutely must not lead to others
mass-editing OSM according to the wishes of that minority.

> I assume that I am not the only JOSM user who is wasting
> time looking at these obsolete tags, 

In that case, a change in JOSM would be the best solution.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-dev] proposal for mechanical edit reg. power_source + generator:source

[François Lacombe]

(Sent from phone)

Hi Gerd,

Such an edit can improve data consistency and your idea sounds good.

As a member of the team who supported the power refinement proposal
including the generator: source key, I just warn regarding the generator
value which was used instead of power=plant.
Power_source or generator:source should be used on devices which are
generating power.
May we can take advantage of such an edit to move this information on
devices instead on buildings or sites ?

All the best

François
Le 13 oct. 2015 9:32 PM, "Frederik Ramm"  a écrit :

> Hi,
>
> On 10/13/2015 08:10 PM, Gerd Petermann wrote:
> > my motivation is simple:
> > JOSM claims that the old tag should not be used,
> > the wiki is also clear:
> > "Use generator:source
> > =*instead."
>
> Yes, but JOSM presets and Wiki pages are not made by the community as a
> whole, and can never serve as a reason for running a mechanical edit. It
> requires only a very small number of people to devise a silly preset or
> "vote" a tag to be deprecated; this absolutely must not lead to others
> mass-editing OSM according to the wishes of that minority.
>
> > I assume that I am not the only JOSM user who is wasting
> > time looking at these obsolete tags,
>
> In that case, a change in JOSM would be the best solution.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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Re: [OSM-dev] proposal for mechanical edit reg. power_source + generator:source

[Gerd Petermann]

Hi Chris,
my motivation is simple:JOSM claims that the old tag should not be used,the 
wiki is also clear:"Use generator:source=*instead."
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:power_source
I assume that I am not the only JOSM user who is wastingtime looking at these 
obsolete tags, so I think a cleanup isthe best solution. 
Gerd


> Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] proposal for mechanical edit reg. power_source + 
> generator:source
> To: gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com
> From: o...@raggedred.net
> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 18:43:48 +0100
> 
> On 13/10/15 18:07, Gerd Petermann wrote:
> > Hi Chris,
> >
> > my understanding is that those data consumers
> > which were interested in the deprecated tag
> > are very likely also interested in the newer one.
> > So, they will have code to recognize both versions.
> > Users that evaluate only the old version are
> > prpbably not really interested in it.
> >
> Demonstrate that by feedback from all the real data users, not just your 
> hunch, and I might change my mind.
> 
> Perhaps you don't understand how much deep-felt objection there is to 
> mechanical edits. They are often reverted and quite rightly so in my 
> opinion. Unsurveyed mechanical edits often do more harm than good. As I 
> said before, the original tag is harmless, why would you feel you know 
> enough about someone else's carefully chosen tags to steam roll over 
> them to satisfy your idea of tidiness?
> 
> -- 
> Cheers, Chris
> user: chillly
> 
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Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

[Florian Lohoff]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 12:30:54PM +0200, Gerd Petermann wrote:
> Yes, I understand how this happens, but I don't understand
> why iD doesn't prevent this action or at least warns the user.
> I am not aware of many tags which regularly contain lists,
> so I'd say it would be better to always warn or implement 
> a white list for those tags in iD.
> I am sure that it already would be a great improvement 
> if the 100 most often used tags are checked.

It should not be a blacklist but a whitelist. Most tags make
absolutely no sense with a ; in them. Today its highway
tomorrow its landuse, maxspeed, bridge, tunnel, width, height
building etc which get combined.

The very easy fix is to refuse a merge/combine when there are
different tag values on the 2 segments with a popup. The user
then can cleanup by deleting the tags on one of the segments
and then join. (This is the proceedure i use with josm aswell
as its much quicker than to go through a lenghthy list of 
multiple choices)

The more advanced solution (But probably a lot more confusing for
the user) would be some multiple-choice like in josm.

I'd prefer the first solution. Still everything is possible
but its hard to get it wrong.

Flo
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Re: [OSM-dev] proposal for mechanical edit reg. power_source + generator:source

[Simon Poole]

I would have thought that it is obvious, but perhaps not. This
discussion clearly belongs on the tagging mailing list and not here.

Simon

Am 13.10.2015 um 22:25 schrieb François Lacombe:
>
> (Sent from phone)
>
> Hi Gerd,
>
> Such an edit can improve data consistency and your idea sounds good.
>
> As a member of the team who supported the power refinement proposal
> including the generator: source key, I just warn regarding the
> generator value which was used instead of power=plant.
> Power_source or generator:source should be used on devices which are
> generating power.
> May we can take advantage of such an edit to move this information on
> devices instead on buildings or sites ?
>
> All the best
>
> François
>
> Le 13 oct. 2015 9:32 PM, "Frederik Ramm"  > a écrit :
>
> Hi,
>
> On 10/13/2015 08:10 PM, Gerd Petermann wrote:
> > my motivation is simple:
> > JOSM claims that the old tag should not be used,
> > the wiki is also clear:
> > "Use generator:source
> > =*instead."
>
> Yes, but JOSM presets and Wiki pages are not made by the community
> as a
> whole, and can never serve as a reason for running a mechanical
> edit. It
> requires only a very small number of people to devise a silly
> preset or
> "vote" a tag to be deprecated; this absolutely must not lead to others
> mass-editing OSM according to the wishes of that minority.
>
> > I assume that I am not the only JOSM user who is wasting
> > time looking at these obsolete tags,
>
> In that case, a change in JOSM would be the best solution.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org
>   ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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>
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