Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] When mental models go wrong: OpenStreetMap
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Dave, That's cool. There's no question we need better editors, and any improvements you can help with will really help. If you have any coding experience then check out the code in svn and see what you can do :-) I'll try it the other way round. I already have written a GPS-Map-Editor some 5 years ago. Currently I am changing it so it will be capable (and aware) of OSM-style and OSM-tags and everything. I got pretty far with that in the last 4 weeks. Currently I am in the last testing and finetuning. I hope to be able to contribute a good and sufficient editor for those who have difficulties to get along with Potlatch or JOSM. I think it will be an alternative. I'll inform you on this list when a beta is released and testers are needed. - -- - -m*sh- ___ |harry w. graner |mail: hy [_at_] sha-mash [_dot_] de |--- [public gpg-key on request] take a look at my blogs: http://yMap4OSM.blog.de -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIbyyU+62Q1j2JM1YRAjuBAKCbsjbf5OqjFZB/3VVZRCfZwmWUigCeLo/+ sXJnNNoXWxapq+DJyGu201g= =ki9L -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] When mental models go wrong: OpenStreetMap
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Lauri Hahne wrote: [...] 1. Ways - There are one kind of ways in the database. Ways can have attributes (tags) but aren't required. - The tagging scheme suggest there are many kinds of ways (highway, cycleway, aeroway...) - Potlatch and JOSM's preset (and mappaint?) system allow you to pick a type for way. - We have questions such as how can I turn this way into a bridge or how can I create a bridge-way at #osm once in a while. [...] Ways are IMHO somewhat mis-designed; at that point I agree with you. i must admit that I have not too much of a deep insight into some parts of the data model - due to being involved since just 4 weeks now. Moreover, IMHO ways are completely obsolete. Every kind of attribute you need can be represented within a node. And it can be represented _easier_ by just attributing the nodes. Think of the third world, where roads are often not covered with tarmac - - the surface changes every now and then. With OSM you have to split it up in several ways, each attributed accordingly. All you would need is an item or *tag* k='connect' v='node_id' So you could connect nodes to a way, and you could easily turn two nodes within a road into a bridge if it has not been set appropriately before. Any renderer has to use the nodes anyway to make up a way so it has to look at the nodes - WHY look at and interpret the ways additionally? Admittedly any software would need a fix on that. But the major part (dropping the ways and setting the connections) should be a matter of a simple script. Just my 2 cents on your thoughts - -- - -m*sh- ___ |harry w. graner |mail: hy [_at_] sha-mash [_dot_] de |--- [public gpg-key on request] take a look at my blogs: http://yMao4OSM.blog.de -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIbcEl+62Q1j2JM1YRAmZWAJ9iJAYD+zD86NqQc31WBXhDE0MsRACcCrfC qXcy9tuXsL8+2GzeXgvVjNU= =95dP -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] When mental models go wrong: OpenStreetMap
Dave Stubbs wrote: Sent: 04 July 2008 9:14 AM To: m*sh Cc: dev@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] When mental models go wrong: OpenStreetMap On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 7:20 AM, m*sh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Lauri Hahne wrote: [...] 1. Ways - There are one kind of ways in the database. Ways can have attributes (tags) but aren't required. - The tagging scheme suggest there are many kinds of ways (highway, cycleway, aeroway...) - Potlatch and JOSM's preset (and mappaint?) system allow you to pick a type for way. - We have questions such as how can I turn this way into a bridge or how can I create a bridge-way at #osm once in a while. [...] Ways are IMHO somewhat mis-designed; at that point I agree with you. i must admit that I have not too much of a deep insight into some parts of the data model - due to being involved since just 4 weeks now. Moreover, IMHO ways are completely obsolete. Every kind of attribute you need can be represented within a node. And it can be represented _easier_ by just attributing the nodes. Think of the third world, where roads are often not covered with tarmac - - the surface changes every now and then. With OSM you have to split it up in several ways, each attributed accordingly. All you would need is an item or *tag* k='connect' v='node_id' So you could connect nodes to a way, and you could easily turn two nodes within a road into a bridge if it has not been set appropriately before. Any renderer has to use the nodes anyway to make up a way so it has to look at the nodes - WHY look at and interpret the ways additionally? Admittedly any software would need a fix on that. But the major part (dropping the ways and setting the connections) should be a matter of a simple script. Just my 2 cents on your thoughts Relational integrity, tag ambivalent database implementation, and a vague chance of keeping history sane, plus just a little abstraction to stop us all going completely insane? But kudos to you, most people try to normalise the data model onto relations, but normalising to nodes is thinking outside the box. Of course it's basically a tag version of segments which were ditched due to the extra processing requirements, and the annoying unordered ways thing. And also I think you have a problem where a node is shared by multiple ways.. ie: where do I put my bridge tags? Anyway... redesigning the raw data model is more than likely a complete waste of everyone's time. Dave Nicely put Dave, Cheers Andy ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] When mental models go wrong: OpenStreetMap
But kudos to you, most people try to normalise the data model onto relations, but normalising to nodes is thinking outside the box. I didn't say that we do not need relations. Of course it's basically a tag version of segments which were ditched due to the extra processing requirements, and the annoying unordered ways thing. And also I think you have a problem where a node is shared by multiple ways.. ie: where do I put my bridge tags? A node can have as many connections to other nodes as required. I have already a system up and running *without ways* that works perfectly well. In order to make it work seamlessly with OSM I had to introduce ways and it slowed the whole thing down - no matter what I try. Anyway... redesigning the raw data model is more than likely a complete waste of everyone's time. Ok, I hoped that my thoughts are taken serious, but I didn't expect that anyone would change the database model. -- -m*sh- ___ |harry w. graner |mail: hy [_at_] sha-mash [_dot_] de |--- [public gpg-key on request] take a look at my blogs: http://yMap4OSM.blog.de ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] When mental models go wrong: OpenStreetMap
Am Fr, 4.07.2008, 12:39, schrieb Erik Johansson: This has come up before, in different ways each time. I know started thinking that any editor would first let you choose the type, and then let you draw it, like in Google Map Maker. But since we had the segments untagged in the beginning I think the easiest path was to add tagging after you draw. Why should there be any order at all? I do not understand that. Except for the very basic fact that you usually have raw data from your GPSr that you are editing. So first there is the Waypoint or Way and then you edit its properties. And if you create an additional node manually you may chose what to edit first - the North/West-Values or the tags... -- -m*sh- ___ |harry w. graner |mail: hy [_at_] sha-mash [_dot_] de |--- [public gpg-key on request] take a look at my blogs: http://sha-mash.blog.de ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] When mental models go wrong: OpenStreetMap
m*sh wrote: Sent: 04 July 2008 3:05 PM To: dev@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] When mental models go wrong: OpenStreetMap Am Fr, 4.07.2008, 12:39, schrieb Erik Johansson: This has come up before, in different ways each time. I know started thinking that any editor would first let you choose the type, and then let you draw it, like in Google Map Maker. But since we had the segments untagged in the beginning I think the easiest path was to add tagging after you draw. Why should there be any order at all? I do not understand that. Except for the very basic fact that you usually have raw data from your GPSr that you are editing. So first there is the Waypoint or Way and then you edit its properties. And if you create an additional node manually you may chose what to edit first - the North/West-Values or the tags... If its not ordered logically, how would you route over it? Cheers Andy ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] When mental models go wrong: OpenStreetMap
On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 3:05 PM, m*sh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am Fr, 4.07.2008, 12:39, schrieb Erik Johansson: This has come up before, in different ways each time. I know started thinking that any editor would first let you choose the type, and then let you draw it, like in Google Map Maker. But since we had the segments untagged in the beginning I think the easiest path was to add tagging after you draw. Why should there be any order at all? I do not understand that. Except for the very basic fact that you usually have raw data from your GPSr that you are editing. So first there is the Waypoint or Way and then you edit its properties. And if you create an additional node manually you may chose what to edit first - the North/West-Values or the tags... Yeah, there's no really good reason why you need to edit in that order, other than it's easier to program, and probably more how most people think. Our dynamic ontology, and largely tag ambivalent editors are why it's that way round. That all changes if I have a SimCity like setup where I choose the road tool, then the rail tool, and then the water tool etc.. but that requires the editors to work with map features (presets) as the starting point rather than an afterthought. Dave ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dev
[OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] When mental models go wrong: OpenStreetMap]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Dave Stubbs wrote: Yeah, there's no really good reason why you need to edit in that order, other than it's easier to program, and probably more how most people think. No it's not. Our dynamic ontology, and largely tag ambivalent editors are why it's that way round. I can prove the opposite. That all changes if I have a SimCity like setup where I choose the road tool, then the rail tool, and then the water tool etc.. but that requires the editors to work with map features (presets) as the starting point rather than an afterthought. No. That's only just because most of you seem to think of an map editor in a similar way as gimp or photoshop, where you have to select a tool and then aply something or other at you image/selection. I am thinking of a map-editor in a way just like a text-editor. You can chose a bold font first and the write some text, but you can as well do it the other way round and write text first and highlight afterwards the sequence of characters in question with the appropriate font/style. It just doesn't matter. As written before - I do not intend to overstress this topic but I want to get a deeper insight in you schemes to contribute my work. - -- - -m*sh- ___ |harry w. graner |mail: hy [_at_] sha-mash [_dot_] de |--- [public gpg-key on request] take a look at my blogs: http://sha-mash.blog.de -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD4DBQFIbl14+62Q1j2JM1YRAsCzAKCHWgZBaN3FBjTKI6StqKywPuz1VgCXQysl gNvcLRClRQQCijksCmkRKQ== =Fr8D -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dev
