Re: [OSM-dev] OSM-3D tagging info
Am 16.12.2011 14:17, schrieb Jaime Crespo: El 16/12/2011 11:15, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org mailto:frede...@remote.org escribió: Ander, On 12/16/11 10:09, Ander Pijoan wrote: Such information is almost certainly not suitable for OSM. Under no circumstances should you import data for all of Spain while sitting at your desk - if at all, then you can help local users to import cadastre data where there's interest and where there *are* local users to begin with. Even if I agree that I like user contributed content above cold imports, when I learnt about the availability of this dataset, I knew it could be very useful. We are talking here about official administrative staff (similar to boundaries) which cannot be surveyed: landuses and building shapes. Buildings could be traced from ortophotography, but with the relation stuf it is both boring and very imprecise (compared to 1-metre-acurate always-updatable import). Sincerely, I prefer people working in surveying amenities, mountain tracks, names, routing, etc. This import have nothing of this. I understand, that this import is a good chance for you, to get informations, that are hard to trace exactly. Here in Rostock (city in Germany), we got a similar import, maybe you can benefit on our experiences: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue/Houses_Rostock In short it was a great way to get a lot of details on the map (which makes working with data more difficult by the way ;)). The positions had to be altered for legal reasons, so the buildings weren't exatcly rectified. Later by adding housenumbers, it was a great help, that the import included all sperated parts of a house, so you could double check if your number records were exact. We did a manual import, so everybody picked up a piece of cake and imported the data to the DB, while he made sure, that there were no heavy overlappings. So basicaly we added the geometry, the hight and the building use, to get a good help for mappers. Now more than two years later (and with Bing available) I'm not that sure if it was wise: -no real exact positions (but good enough) -no good splitted parts/heigts for 3D rendering -some outdated informations, hard to find -some to generelized informationos/categories that can be modelled better with OSM -mostly to detailed buildings (balconies,...) -hard to motivate people to add further attributes to the buildings (roof, colours ...) +good for est. housenumbers +great help for remembering amenities and stuff by non mappers (osmbugs.org) +super detailed informations (power transformators,...) So my suggestion is, to do a import only together with a crew on the ground, to make sure, that they accept this 'mechanical' adding of informations and to make sure that they don't override the hard manual of all of you. And of course to work on this data if the import was done... I, as one of the local users, am the one that is fearing any problem and checking progresses. But I want also thank Ander for his work, because he is doing all the hard work that nobody had time to do for this import (and even answering all suggestions). Definitly! We all aren't talking to him, to stop any action, but to help you to make a wise decission so OSM comes better and better in your area :) bye Matthias (user:!i!) Anyway, I am the first person that could see problems for future contributors. But my beliefs are that they should be addressed within the editors' scope: things like better handling of layers and relations for buildings and landuses. 90% of the corrections I point to new users have to do with multipoligons. -- Jaime Crespo ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] OSM-3D tagging info
On 18 December 2011 07:40, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 7:17 AM, Jaime Crespo jy...@jynus.com wrote: (compared to 1-metre-acurate always-updatable import). So you've solved the import update problem? Mind sharing? There are 13778200 TIGER ways here in the US that are very interested in this topic. As far as I follow the Spanish catastro import, the updates have not been considered yet, but I imagine the situation will be a little different form TIGER because of the updating frequency. TIGER is a census dataset so by definition it gets updated en masse at specific dates while a cadastre is updated in real time and the feeds can be something more similar to OSM changesets, so probably easier to deal with. Cheers ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] OSM-3D tagging info
On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 7:17 AM, Jaime Crespo jy...@jynus.com wrote: (compared to 1-metre-acurate always-updatable import). So you've solved the import update problem? Mind sharing? There are 13778200 TIGER ways here in the US that are very interested in this topic. Toby ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
[OSM-dev] OSM-3D tagging info
Hi everyone: My name is Ander Pijoan and I'm a student at the University of Deusto. We are working on an application to convert data from a goverment database called Catastro (which has been openned to all users little time ago) to osm format in order to do massive imports. This database contains all the urban and rustical info about landuse, buildings... and lots of interesting things to add like sub_stations, amenities or even streetlamps and trees. Here is the wiki where you can follow the project: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Spanish_Catastro For big cities maybe there is stuff that is not necessary to import but for small villages its a great improvement. The conversion part is almost ready but we have one bit missing, the building tagging for 3d renderers to render propperly. We've seen you will have an OSM Dev weekend but we don't know if we will be able to attend. Example of current data stored in OSM: http://i.imgur.com/vComo.png Data we can import from Catastro: http://i.imgur.com/kqCex.jpg The tags on the wiki related to 3D rendering are quite reduced for all the information Catastro database gives. We have information about part of a building are balconies, terraces, porchs... http://i.imgur.com/i6LJ5.png So our question is if there are some more tags already standarized or recommended for this data, it is expected to have some or we should make some operations to calculate the shape it should draw on 3d and type it like min-height and height. Thanks a lot, Cheers. -- Ander Pijoan Lamas Ingeniero Técnico en Informática de Gestión Universidad de Deusto Contacto: Email: ander.pij...@deusto.es Móvil: +34 664471228 ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] OSM-3D tagging info
3d tagging is not widely supported. I think itd be of questionable value. What software are you using to convert, and whats the license of the data? Just a reminder, dont forget to follow the import guidelines, which includes discussing with the local community and impo...@openstreetmap.org. From: Ander Pijoan [mailto:ander.pij...@deusto.es] Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 1:10 AM To: dev@openstreetmap.org Subject: [OSM-dev] OSM-3D tagging info Hi everyone: My name is Ander Pijoan and I'm a student at the University of Deusto. We are working on an application to convert data from a goverment database called Catastro (which has been openned to all users little time ago) to osm format in order to do massive imports. This database contains all the urban and rustical info about landuse, buildings... and lots of interesting things to add like sub_stations, amenities or even streetlamps and trees. Here is the wiki where you can follow the project: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Spanish_Catastro For big cities maybe there is stuff that is not necessary to import but for small villages its a great improvement. The conversion part is almost ready but we have one bit missing, the building tagging for 3d renderers to render propperly. We've seen you will have an OSM Dev weekend but we don't know if we will be able to attend. Example of current data stored in OSM: http://i.imgur.com/vComo.png Data we can import from Catastro: http://i.imgur.com/kqCex.jpg The tags on the wiki related to 3D rendering are quite reduced for all the information Catastro database gives. We have information about part of a building are balconies, terraces, porchs... http://i.imgur.com/i6LJ5.png So our question is if there are some more tags already standarized or recommended for this data, it is expected to have some or we should make some operations to calculate the shape it should draw on 3d and type it like min-height and height. Thanks a lot, Cheers. -- Ander Pijoan Lamas Ingeniero Técnico en Informática de Gestión Universidad de Deusto Contacto: Email: mailto:ander.pij...@deusto.es ander.pij...@deusto.es Móvil: +34 664471228 ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] OSM-3D tagging info
Hi Ander, the data you have looks great and it certainly would be a huge improvement, particularly in the 3D context. As you've already recognised, the 3D development in OSM is still in its early stages and tagging schemas are not yet established but still lively discussed. The most extensive proposal for tag-based building and roof modelling is made here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Roof_table http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Roof_table (German) http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/3D_building You can also see what kind of different 3D OSM viewers exist so far and which tags are processed by them: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/3D_Development/Tagging At the moment it is still very difficult to manually apply all these tags and it is also currently not recommended to do that since there is no consensus if this is the right way. However, it would already be great if you just included basic tags like the building height, the general roof type, number of floors etc. We will discuss and try to push forward this development during our workshop in Garching in March 2012. Best, Matthias ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] OSM-3D tagging info
Ander, On 12/16/11 10:09, Ander Pijoan wrote: to osm format in order to do massive imports. Imports are not universally welcome in OSM. Please discuss, ideally on the imports list, exactly what you plan to import and how. The tags on the wiki related to 3D rendering are quite reduced for all the information Catastro database gives. We have information about part of a building are balconies, terraces, porchs... Such information is almost certainly not suitable for OSM. Remember that OSM is a user-editable database, so you should not import anything that cannot be meaningfully edited by users. So our question is if there are some more tags already standarized or recommended for this data Even if there were - OSM cannot be a repository of detailed 3D shapes for all the buildings in this world, this is simply outside our scope and outside of what our editors and our database can handle. Imports may make the map look nice in the short term, but they have the potential to make editing harder. Also, if you import data where there is no local community, you risk creating huge data dumps for which nobody really cares, and which nobody maintains. The value of OSM is not in the huge amount of data that has been collected, but in the community that keeps this data current. Under no circumstances should you import data for all of Spain while sitting at your desk - if at all, then you can help local users to import cadastre data where there's interest and where there *are* local users to begin with. Bye Frederik ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] OSM-3D tagging info
El 16/12/2011 10:22, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com escribió: 3d tagging is not widely supported. I think it’d be of questionable value. I think that importing the number of floors and/or the height of the building is something really useful. Look at those pretty buildings in 3d renderings. Google folks love them. :-) Time to establish one? What software are you using to convert, and what’s the license of the data? I am in no way related to Ander, but I extensively know about his team's work because he has providing feedback for some months in the Spanish list. I told them, however, to follow the gidelines (which he is doing well, considering the import is not yet prepared) and inform at the international lists. Most Spanish mappers (including the most veterans) are aware and prividing feedback, corrections, opinions on data selection. The data he is using is the one I announced early this year in the talk list about Spanish Cadastre release (nobody seamed to care much back then). It is not only compatible with CTs, but they are giving full rights ownership to any Spanish citizen, to do anything they want with the data set. It is mostly landuse and building shapes. Just to be clear: must be Spanish to download, any derivative work is yours and can be exported. The software is a custom made still-in-progress converter to osm xml format divided in 3000 or so areas (municipalities). Just a reminder, don’t forget to follow the import guidelines, which includes discussing with the local community and impo...@openstreetmap.org. From: Ander Pijoan [mailto:ander.pij...@deusto.es] Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 1:10 AM To: dev@openstreetmap.org Subject: [OSM-dev] OSM-3D tagging info Hi everyone: My name is Ander Pijoan and I'm a student at the University of Deusto. We are working on an application to convert data from a goverment database called Catastro (which has been openned to all users little time ago) to osm format in order to do massive imports. This database contains all the urban and rustical info about landuse, buildings... and lots of interesting things to add like sub_stations, amenities or even streetlamps and trees. Here is the wiki where you can follow the project: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Spanish_Catastro -- Jaime Crespo ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] OSM-3D tagging info
El 16/12/2011 11:15, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org escribió: Ander, On 12/16/11 10:09, Ander Pijoan wrote: Such information is almost certainly not suitable for OSM. Under no circumstances should you import data for all of Spain while sitting at your desk - if at all, then you can help local users to import cadastre data where there's interest and where there *are* local users to begin with. Even if I agree that I like user contributed content above cold imports, when I learnt about the availability of this dataset, I knew it could be very useful. We are talking here about official administrative staff (similar to boundaries) which cannot be surveyed: landuses and building shapes. Buildings could be traced from ortophotography, but with the relation stuf it is both boring and very imprecise (compared to 1-metre-acurate always-updatable import). Sincerely, I prefer people working in surveying amenities, mountain tracks, names, routing, etc. This import have nothing of this. I, as one of the local users, am the one that is fearing any problem and checking progresses. But I want also thank Ander for his work, because he is doing all the hard work that nobody had time to do for this import (and even answering all suggestions). Anyway, I am the first person that could see problems for future contributors. But my beliefs are that they should be addressed within the editors' scope: things like better handling of layers and relations for buildings and landuses. 90% of the corrections I point to new users have to do with multipoligons. -- Jaime Crespo ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] OSM-3D tagging info
Ander Pijoan wrote: We are working on an application to convert data from a goverment database called Catastro (which has been openned to all users little time ago) to osm format in order to do massive imports. [...] The conversion part is almost ready but we have one bit missing, the building tagging for 3d renderers to render propperly. We've seen you will have an OSM Dev weekend but we don't know if we will be able to attend. Imports are a very sensitive topic as they can do a lot of damage when done wrong. Unfortunately, you will simply not be able to do a good import of 3D information within in the next few months. As you have noticed, there is no established tagging scheme for 3d information, and I expect that this situation will persist at least until the Dev weekend in March. Even then, it would not advisable to immediately perform an import with a newly invented tagging scheme. Any tagging idea needs to prove its usability, i.e. be used by normal mappers manually. To sum this up, the proper order is like this: 1. We invent and agree on a tagging scheme. 2. A lot of mappers use it for manual mapping. 3. Imports help local mappers to improve coverage of a type of data that they could have mapped themselves anyway. (optional) As the maintainer of OSM2World, I'm obviously not opposed to adding 3D information to OSM. But it needs to be done in a manner that is compatible with the way our community works. You could consider importing some more established categories of data from your source earlier and leave out the 3D building stuff for the moment. Even then it is recommended that you don't push data into OSM, but instead give local contributors the ability to pull parts of the data and manually integrate it with existing information. Tobias ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
