Re: [OSM-dev] hacking outdoor GPS devices
On 16/04/12 20:26, Mitja Kleider wrote: Hello, I have a few questions regarding outdoor GPS devices: * Are you satisfied with the available devices? What would you change first? * If there was a device with open source firmware, would that be an important feature? I have mostly one concern with available GPS loggers: the varying accuracy. We don't need the 2-3cm accuracy of a surveyors GPS, but a little bit more would be helpful. So the two important features would be - Show reliably how accurate the position is. Unlike a navigational GPS, it's of not much use to have quickly a fix which is 100m away. High sensitivity brings multipath reception which can make a track useless for mapping. In other words: a mode which only uses a reliable fix. - differential GPS. If you want to record some details, positioning a gps on a known point can give a huge increase in accuracy. This feature would not be that hard to implement, and I am sure some technical university would gladly make a project out of it, if we could get access to the internal measurements of the chip set and not only the fully processed NMEA data. Datendelphin ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] hacking outdoor GPS devices
Hi all, I've been in touch with Michele Bavaro, who runs One Talent GNSS [1]. He has developped a clever (in my opinion) solution for precise logging. It includes : - U-blox Neo-6 GPS chip (6T or 6P) - a polymer lithium pack with approximately 4 hours of battery life - uSD card - USB for recharging and other useful things - MCX connector with selectable 3.3V or 12V DC output for GPS antenna - Bluetooth connection - Price is 400 € BT allows for configuration / control from a device such as a smartphone. Therefore, no display is required on the logger itself. It can be easily charged in a car, thanks to the USB connector Device is not detailed so far on his website, fur I'm sure he can provide information. If you're comfortable with German, usefull information on similar device (GPS chip in particular) can be found on Kowoma forum [2] Michele is keen to adjust the hardware if necessary and he promotes the use of OpenSource software, such as RTKlib (which I think he's porting to Android) Hope it helps [1] http://www.onetalent-gnss.com/ [2] http://www.kowoma.de/gpsforum/viewtopic.php?f=3t=3247 2012/4/20 datendelphin mailingl...@osm.datendelphin.net On 16/04/12 20:26, Mitja Kleider wrote: Hello, I have a few questions regarding outdoor GPS devices: * Are you satisfied with the available devices? What would you change first? * If there was a device with open source firmware, would that be an important feature? I have mostly one concern with available GPS loggers: the varying accuracy. We don't need the 2-3cm accuracy of a surveyors GPS, but a little bit more would be helpful. So the two important features would be - Show reliably how accurate the position is. Unlike a navigational GPS, it's of not much use to have quickly a fix which is 100m away. High sensitivity brings multipath reception which can make a track useless for mapping. In other words: a mode which only uses a reliable fix. - differential GPS. If you want to record some details, positioning a gps on a known point can give a huge increase in accuracy. This feature would not be that hard to implement, and I am sure some technical university would gladly make a project out of it, if we could get access to the internal measurements of the chip set and not only the fully processed NMEA data. Datendelphin ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev -- ab_fab http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Ab_fab Il n'y a pas de pas perdus ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] hacking outdoor GPS devices
The main issue with Micheles project is that 400 Euro is probably a bit outside the typical budget for a GPS logger (you also have to add in costs for a reasonable antenna, so it is probably more around 450EUR in real life). Did he indicate what kind of volume his price calculations are based on? I've been eyeing getting the receiver only USB-stick https://www.optimalsystem.de/os.aspx?x=45 for experimenting. Simon Am 20.04.2012 19:01, schrieb Ab_fab: Hi all, I've been in touch with Michele Bavaro, who runs One Talent GNSS [1]. He has developped a clever (in my opinion) solution for precise logging. It includes : - U-blox Neo-6 GPS chip (6T or 6P) - a polymer lithium pack with approximately 4 hours of battery life - uSD card - USB for recharging and other useful things - MCX connector with selectable 3.3V or 12V DC output for GPS antenna - Bluetooth connection - Price is 400 EUR BT allows for configuration / control from a device such as a smartphone. Therefore, no display is required on the logger itself. The mIt can be easily charged in a car, thanks to the USB connector Device is not detailed so far on his website, fur I'm sure he can provide information. If you're comfortable with German, usefull information on similar device (GPS chip in particular) can be found on Kowoma forum [2] Michele is keen to adjust the hardware if necessary and he promotes the use of OpenSource software, such as RTKlib (which I think he's porting to Android) Hope it helps [1] http://www.onetalent-gnss.com/ [2] http://www.kowoma.de/gpsforum/viewtopic.php?f=3t=3247 http://www.kowoma.de/gpsforum/viewtopic.php?f=3t=3247 2012/4/20 datendelphin mailingl...@osm.datendelphin.net mailto:mailingl...@osm.datendelphin.net On 16/04/12 20:26, Mitja Kleider wrote: Hello, I have a few questions regarding outdoor GPS devices: * Are you satisfied with the available devices? What would you change first? * If there was a device with open source firmware, would that be an important feature? I have mostly one concern with available GPS loggers: the varying accuracy. We don't need the 2-3cm accuracy of a surveyors GPS, but a little bit more would be helpful. So the two important features would be - Show reliably how accurate the position is. Unlike a navigational GPS, it's of not much use to have quickly a fix which is 100m away. High sensitivity brings multipath reception which can make a track useless for mapping. In other words: a mode which only uses a reliable fix. - differential GPS. If you want to record some details, positioning a gps on a known point can give a huge increase in accuracy. This feature would not be that hard to implement, and I am sure some technical university would gladly make a project out of it, if we could get access to the internal measurements of the chip set and not only the fully processed NMEA data. Datendelphin ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org mailto:dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev -- ab_fab http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Ab_fab Il n'y a pas de pas perdus ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] hacking outdoor GPS devices
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 04:44:05PM +0200, Stellan Lagerstrom wrote: I have one of those, too. Really like it for mapping while biking. I use the USB connection for data, but BT would be nice. Never really suffered from any bugs, but entering text is a real There is a WAAS Bug when the GPSMap gets and looses one of the WAAS/EGNOS/etc sattelites. Afterwards it has an offset which does not get eliminated until turned off. I consider the problem with the mkgmap generated maps and searching for adresses a bug - Open Source Firmware - Problem gone. pain. A clickable scroll wheel would be an improvement, but is perhaps hard to make waterproof... Have a look at the Mercedes Benz built in Navigation. You have the 4 direction buttons and an okay - and entering text works like a charm. Its a UI problem and with Garmin the Software Developers are free to design the UI ... Ambivalent on the battery - it is also great to be able to buy batteries practically anywhere. I agree - This is why i meant - charging in the case. A little switch saying Alkali or NiCd, NiMh. More robust - Better battery life - Better display in direct sunlight. All of that, plus that the UI is usable w gloves (which you need while biking at least half of the year), even in the rain, and still gives tactile feedback. Which excludes any kind of touch interface which is a PITA. And the handlebar mount. Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] hacking outdoor GPS devices
On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 08:26:56PM +0200, Mitja Kleider wrote: Hello, I have a few questions regarding outdoor GPS devices: * Are you satisfied with the available devices? What would you change first? No - I have a GPSMap 60Csx - Form factor, battery life, display are all okay. I'd like to have the ability to charge it and a bluetooth mass storage solution to aquire the tracks as disassembling the device to get to the micro SD is broken by design. Firmware is aehm - broken - multitudes of bugs and UI mishaps. I dont need touch screen or those fancy modern stuff - it needs to be usable. I dont need routing although its a nice to have. * If there was a device with open source firmware, would that be an important feature? It would be a nice bonus if the firmware would be fixable - Park the git tree and build instructions somewhere ;) * Are you interested in developing your own firmware (if drivers were available)? Definitly. * Why would you but an outdoor GPS anyway instead of using your smartphone? More robust - Better battery life - Better display in direct sunlight. Your opinion on these questions would help me a lot! Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] hacking outdoor GPS devices
Mitja Kleider schrieb am Montag, den 16. April um 20:26 Uhr: * Are you satisfied with the available devices? No! They are either not really usable for outdoor stuff (Smartphones even true for Motorola DEFY) or use proprietary firmware which can not be hacked (Garmin devices) What would you change first? As far as Garmin Outdoor devices are concerned there are a couple of usability issues in the current firmware. And there is no bicycle capable routing algo. Probably it would be possible to integrate monav routing daemon or osrm. * If there was a device with open source firmware, would that be an important feature? The feature would be a extendable firmware. I think it would not matter that much if the underlying os would be Open Source like in Android or just hackable using a API like in iOS or Windows Mobile. * Why would you but an outdoor GPS anyway instead of using your smartphone? Still because of the typical Outdoor features: * daylight capable display (e.g. like in garmin GPSmap devices) * long lasting battery * good GPS reception I think the best hypothetical device for a bicycle handlebar would an Open Source one connectable to the Internet via Smartphone in the pocket of the driver of course als replacing a legacy bicycle computer. Sven -- Trotz der zunehmenden Verbreitung von Linux erfreut sich der Bär, und - dank Knut - insbesondere der Eisbär, deutlich größerer Beliebtheit als der Pinguin. (Gefunden bei http://telepolis.de/) /me is giggls@ircnet, http://sven.gegg.us/ on the Web ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] hacking outdoor GPS devices
Am 16. April 2012 20:26 schrieb Mitja Kleider mi...@kleider.name: * Why would you buy an outdoor GPS anyway instead of using your smartphone? besides the aforementioned facts (accuracy, readable in direct sunlight, battery life, shock- and water resistance, interfaces (e.g. plug for external antenna)) I also like to have 2 independent devices: if the GPS runs out of battery I still am able to make phone calls, or you could switch your phone off in an emergency situation without signal reception and turn it on only from time to time while still being able to use the GPS. Another thing is the kind of power supply: you can put ordinary AA-batteries in a typical GPS outdoor device, which you can get almost everywhere, and which are cheap enough to carry multiple backups with you for long trips. cheers, Martin ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] hacking outdoor GPS devices
On 2012-04-17 10:44, Florian Lohoff wrote: On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 08:26:56PM +0200, Mitja Kleider wrote: Hello, I have a few questions regarding outdoor GPS devices: * Are you satisfied with the available devices? What would you change first? No - I have a GPSMap 60Csx - Form factor, battery life, display are all okay. I'd like to have the ability to charge it and a bluetooth mass storage solution to aquire the tracks as disassembling the device to get to the micro SD is broken by design. Firmware is aehm - broken - multitudes of bugs and UI mishaps. I dont need touch screen or those fancy modern stuff - it needs to be usable. I have one of those, too. Really like it for mapping while biking. I use the USB connection for data, but BT would be nice. Never really suffered from any bugs, but entering text is a real pain. A clickable scroll wheel would be an improvement, but is perhaps hard to make waterproof... Ambivalent on the battery - it is also great to be able to buy batteries practically anywhere. The display ought to have a raised rim around it to protect the glass from scratches better. * If there was a device with open source firmware, would that be an important feature? Of course. I love to be able to fix bugs. * Why would you but an outdoor GPS anyway instead of using your smartphone? More robust - Better battery life - Better display in direct sunlight. All of that, plus that the UI is usable w gloves (which you need while biking at least half of the year), even in the rain, and still gives tactile feedback. And the handlebar mount. -- /Stellan ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] hacking outdoor GPS devices
On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 2:26 PM, Mitja Kleider mi...@kleider.name wrote: Hello, I have a few questions regarding outdoor GPS devices: * Are you satisfied with the available devices? What would you change first? I'd add voice notes to any of the hiking Garmin devices. * If there was a device with open source firmware, would that be an important feature? I'd be more likely to buy it, but it wouldn't be the only factor. If that was *all* I cared about, I'd build my own with an Arduino, a GPS chip, and a voice recorder. Doing all that, even with as little technical knowledge as I have, I could do in 6 months, except for being able to have a screen/draw a map. * Are you interested in developing your own firmware (if drivers were available)? Too busy with other things. * Why would you but an outdoor GPS anyway instead of using your smartphone? Battery life and robustness. Though, I'll say that the smartphones are often better in urban environments, where they rely on cell towers and wifi signals and use a location lookup service. A GPS in most of Manhattan is fairly inaccurate due to the buildings. - Serge ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
[OSM-dev] hacking outdoor GPS devices
Hello, I have a few questions regarding outdoor GPS devices: * Are you satisfied with the available devices? What would you change first? * If there was a device with open source firmware, would that be an important feature? * Are you interested in developing your own firmware (if drivers were available)? * Why would you but an outdoor GPS anyway instead of using your smartphone? Your opinion on these questions would help me a lot! Thanks, Mitja ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] hacking outdoor GPS devices
On Mon, 16 Apr 2012, Mitja Kleider wrote: Hello, I have a few questions regarding outdoor GPS devices: * Are you satisfied with the available devices? What would you change first? I have a Garmin eTrex Vista HCX now, and I like it a lot as it's fast and accurate. It's map rendering isn't so nice though. * If there was a device with open source firmware, would that be an important feature? * Are you interested in developing your own firmware (if drivers were available)? Not for me; I already have no spare time :-) * Why would you but an outdoor GPS anyway instead of using your smartphone? I hike a lot in rain and snow and... a dedicated GPS is a lot more accurate and has a much longer battery life- and can deal with some rain! Derick ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] hacking outdoor GPS devices
Same reason for me - my eTrex vista hcx can handle abuse like being dropped in puddles, and its batteries will last morr than 24 hours - am lucky if my phone will do 5 hours with the gps on. Graham from my phone On 16 Apr 2012 20:00, Derick Rethans o...@derickrethans.nl wrote: On Mon, 16 Apr 2012, Mitja Kleider wrote: Hello, I have a few questions regarding outdoor GP... I have a Garmin eTrex Vista HCX now, and I like it a lot as it's fast and accurate. It's map rendering isn't so nice though. * If there was a device with open source firmware, would that be an important feature? * Are ... Not for me; I already have no spare time :-) * Why would you but an outdoor GPS anyway instead of using your smartphone? I hike a lot in rain and snow and... a dedicated GPS is a lot more accurate and has a much longer battery life- and can deal with some rain! Derick ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists... ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] hacking outdoor GPS devices
At 2012-04-16 11:26, Mitja Kleider wrote: * Are you satisfied with the available devices? What would you change first? Lots of stuff. Even Garmin's top-of-the-consumer-line firmware is really clunky by modern UI standards. Ability to record higher density points at lower speeds and still have enough storage for months of tracks like my smartphone (instead of hours). * If there was a device with open source firmware, would that be an important feature? Maybe - as long as it resulted in better firmware. * Are you interested in developing your own firmware (if drivers were available)? Probably not. * Why would you buy an outdoor GPS anyway instead of using your smartphone? 1. Reliability - MyTracks on Android has had reliability issues - stopping recording for several minutes in the middle of a track for no particular reason. 2. No external antenna - at least on my HTC incredible. The external antenna on my car makes a huge signal diff on my Garmin, resulting in higher-accuracy tracks. Also, when taking high-accuracy point surveys, I can align to my front tire and then use known fixed measurements from there to the antenna. Much better than having to keep your smartphone safe sitting on a cone or the ground. -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
