Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

[Gerd Petermann]

Hi Holger,

thanks for the hint, did it now:
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2836

And again thanks to those who helped to fix the problems.

Gerd


Von: Holger Jeromin <mailgm...@katur.de>
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. November 2015 09:41
An: Gerd Petermann
Betreff: Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

Gerd Petermann wrote on 20.11.2015 07:35:
> If I got it right, this new version will not so easily produce
> these invalid tags now.
> Would it also be possible to ask the user correct existing
> invalid tags ?
> Example:
> If I change a highway with oneway="yes;no" or "surface=asphalt;gravel"
> could iD ask me to correct  the wrong tags?
> Something like a popup with the text
> "If you are local, please try to correct (improve) the attribute xyz before 
> saving"

Please ask such questions on a (new?) issue on
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/

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Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

[GerdP]

Just to catch up:
During the last two weeks I've cleaned up almost all 
ways with an invalid highway=* tag (those containing semicolons).
During the last 48 hours at least 19 ways with variations of these wrong
tags
were added by nine different users, all using iD :-(
It seems the worst cases like 
highway=primary;residential;secondary;tertiary_link;tertiary
were produced trying to add ways to a route relation.

I've contacted all the mappers, but this really has to stop soon.

Gerd


GerdP wrote
> Hi all,
> 
> I wonder why iD allows to create ways with e.g.
> highway=primary;service
> or similar combinations?
> I think the highway tag (as well as e.g. surface, tracktyp)
> are meaningless when they contain lists. 
> 
> I understand that this can also be done using other editors,
> but most of the cases that I checked showed  iD as the 
> used editor.
> 
> Gerd





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Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

[Bryan Housel]

This has been fixed so that iD will not allow a user to join ways with 
conflicting tags.  The fix will be in the next version released this week.
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/pull/2809 


Thanks, Bryan



> On Nov 1, 2015, at 3:53 AM, GerdP  wrote:
> 
> Just to catch up:
> During the last two weeks I've cleaned up almost all 
> ways with an invalid highway=* tag (those containing semicolons).
> During the last 48 hours at least 19 ways with variations of these wrong
> tags
> were added by nine different users, all using iD :-(
> It seems the worst cases like 
> highway=primary;residential;secondary;tertiary_link;tertiary
> were produced trying to add ways to a route relation.
> 
> I've contacted all the mappers, but this really has to stop soon.
> 
> Gerd
> 
> 
> GerdP wrote
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> I wonder why iD allows to create ways with e.g.
>> highway=primary;service
>> or similar combinations?
>> I think the highway tag (as well as e.g. surface, tracktyp)
>> are meaningless when they contain lists. 
>> 
>> I understand that this can also be done using other editors,
>> but most of the cases that I checked showed  iD as the 
>> used editor.
>> 
>> Gerd
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/iD-creates-invalid-highway-tags-tp5856854p5858503.html
> Sent from the Developer Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 
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Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

[Gerd Petermann]

Yes, I understand how this happens, but I don't understand
why iD doesn't prevent this action or at least warns the user.
I am not aware of many tags which regularly contain lists,
so I'd say it would be better to always warn or implement 
a white list for those tags in iD.
I am sure that it already would be a great improvement 
if the 100 most often used tags are checked.

Gerd


> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:11:05 +
> From: j...@betra.is
> To: gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com
> CC: dev@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags
> 
> This can occur when a primary and a service road are joined. iD does not 
> know which one it is and so it concatenates them. iD displays the road 
> then as "Highway" with this combined type as key=value.
> 
> I imagine this could be fairly hard to combat, GUI wise you would need 
> special handling for highway types as some key=value types do contain 
> lists.
> 
> Þann 13.10.2015 08:03, GerdP reit:
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > I wonder why iD allows to create ways with e.g.
> > highway=primary;service
> > or similar combinations?
> > I think the highway tag (as well as e.g. surface, tracktyp)
> > are meaningless when they contain lists.
> > 
> > I understand that this can also be done using other editors,
> > but most of the cases that I checked showed  iD as the
> > used editor.
> > 
> > Gerd
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> > http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/iD-creates-invalid-highway-tags-tp5856854.html
> > Sent from the Developer Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> > 
> > ___
> > dev mailing list
> > dev@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
> 
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Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

[Simon Legner]

Hi!

> Or much more simple:
> Don't allow to combine elements with different
> tags without confirmation.

Here is the relevant GitHub issue:
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2358

Simon

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Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

[Jóhannes Birgir Jensson]

This can occur when a primary and a service road are joined. iD does not 
know which one it is and so it concatenates them. iD displays the road 
then as "Highway" with this combined type as key=value.


I imagine this could be fairly hard to combat, GUI wise you would need 
special handling for highway types as some key=value types do contain 
lists.


Þann 13.10.2015 08:03, GerdP reit:

Hi all,

I wonder why iD allows to create ways with e.g.
highway=primary;service
or similar combinations?
I think the highway tag (as well as e.g. surface, tracktyp)
are meaningless when they contain lists.

I understand that this can also be done using other editors,
but most of the cases that I checked showed  iD as the
used editor.

Gerd



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Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

[Gerd Petermann]

Or much more simple:Don't allow to combine elements with differenttags without 
confirmation. If the user tries that, a dialog shouldshow the differences and 
ask the user what touse, similar to JOSM. 
Merging objects with different tags is an actionthat requires expert knowledge, 
so maybenot something iD should allow unless it allowsto resolve the conflicts 
as well.
Gerd
From: gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com
To: j...@betra.is; dev@openstreetmap.org
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 12:30:54 +0200
Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags




Yes, I understand how this happens, but I don't understand
why iD doesn't prevent this action or at least warns the user.
I am not aware of many tags which regularly contain lists,
so I'd say it would be better to always warn or implement 
a white list for those tags in iD.
I am sure that it already would be a great improvement 
if the 100 most often used tags are checked.

Gerd


> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:11:05 +
> From: j...@betra.is
> To: gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com
> CC: dev@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags
> 
> This can occur when a primary and a service road are joined. iD does not 
> know which one it is and so it concatenates them. iD displays the road 
> then as "Highway" with this combined type as key=value.
> 
> I imagine this could be fairly hard to combat, GUI wise you would need 
> special handling for highway types as some key=value types do contain 
> lists.
> 
> Þann 13.10.2015 08:03, GerdP reit:
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > I wonder why iD allows to create ways with e.g.
> > highway=primary;service
> > or similar combinations?
> > I think the highway tag (as well as e.g. surface, tracktyp)
> > are meaningless when they contain lists.
> > 
> > I understand that this can also be done using other editors,
> > but most of the cases that I checked showed  iD as the
> > used editor.
> > 
> > Gerd
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> > http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/iD-creates-invalid-highway-tags-tp5856854.html
> > Sent from the Developer Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> > 
> > ___
> > dev mailing list
> > dev@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
> 
  

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Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

[Andy Townsend]

On 13/10/2015 09:03, GerdP wrote:

Hi all,

I wonder why iD allows to create ways with e.g.
highway=primary;service
or similar combinations?



Whilst there are technical things that editors can do (P2's visual 
indication shows that semicolon values are "wrong" is one example), it's 
not really a technical problem.


New mappers that create something like "highway=primary;service" do so 
because they don't really understand what they're doing yet. It's not 
obvious to new mappers that a road called "High Street" needs to be 
split into several sections if part is primary, part residential and 
part something else.  The only way they're going to find out is if 
something that they see before they start mapping explains this (tricky, 
because it's a bit of an information overload if all they want to do is 
add e.g. a node for a POI).


Also, it's not always possible to pick things like this up within the 
editor at all; for example merging a "highway=residential; 
sidewalk=both" with a "highway=residential" that doesn't yet have the 
sidewalk surveyed.  Did the mapper survey the missing sidewalk or merge 
it my accident?


What we're going to have to keep doing in these cases is spotting new 
mappers and helping them when they get it wrong*.  Editing OSM is 
complicated, especially in detailed urban areas or where a previous 
mapper or import was over-heavy on the multipolygons.


Cheers,

Andy

* which a quick scan of http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussions 
suggests that you're doing already a _lot_, so thanks very much for that!





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Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

[Gerd Petermann]

Hi Andy,

yes, I contacted some editors and typically got positive feedback,
so it is clear to me that nobody intended to create unusable data.

I just don't understand why iD offers a method to combine elements
when this is such a tricky thing. Why would a "beginner" need that?

ciao,
Gerd

> To: dev@openstreetmap.org
> From: ajt1...@gmail.com
> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:02:34 +0100
> Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags
> 
> On 13/10/2015 09:03, GerdP wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I wonder why iD allows to create ways with e.g.
> > highway=primary;service
> > or similar combinations?
> >
> 
> Whilst there are technical things that editors can do (P2's visual 
> indication shows that semicolon values are "wrong" is one example), it's 
> not really a technical problem.
> 
> New mappers that create something like "highway=primary;service" do so 
> because they don't really understand what they're doing yet. It's not 
> obvious to new mappers that a road called "High Street" needs to be 
> split into several sections if part is primary, part residential and 
> part something else.  The only way they're going to find out is if 
> something that they see before they start mapping explains this (tricky, 
> because it's a bit of an information overload if all they want to do is 
> add e.g. a node for a POI).
> 
> Also, it's not always possible to pick things like this up within the 
> editor at all; for example merging a "highway=residential; 
> sidewalk=both" with a "highway=residential" that doesn't yet have the 
> sidewalk surveyed.  Did the mapper survey the missing sidewalk or merge 
> it my accident?
> 
> What we're going to have to keep doing in these cases is spotting new 
> mappers and helping them when they get it wrong*.  Editing OSM is 
> complicated, especially in detailed urban areas or where a previous 
> mapper or import was over-heavy on the multipolygons.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Andy
> 
> * which a quick scan of http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussions 
> suggests that you're doing already a _lot_, so thanks very much for that!
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

[Bryan Housel]

Large portions of the US TIGER import ended up heavily segmented, so merge 
happens to be really important for some places.


> On Oct 13, 2015, at 9:50 AM, Gerd Petermann  
> wrote:
> yes, I contacted some editors and typically got positive feedback,
> so it is clear to me that nobody intended to create unusable data.
> 
> I just don't understand why iD offers a method to combine elements
> when this is such a tricky thing. Why would a "beginner" need that?
> 

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Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

[Jóhannes Birgir Jensson]

Because it is used not just by beginners? I use iD for fly-by edits or 
exploratory wanderings. JOSM for the big bulk stuff (adding every single 
house in a big area)


Þann 13.10.2015 13:50, Gerd Petermann reit:


I just don't understand why iD offers a method to combine elements
when this is such a tricky thing. Why would a "beginner" need that?



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Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

[Bryan Housel]

Yes, this is something I want to fix in iD, but I just haven’t gotten to it.
Priority-wise it’s probably one of the top 5 issues I want to focus on.
Thanks for being patient!

Thanks, Bryan



> On Oct 13, 2015, at 6:30 AM, Gerd Petermann  
> wrote:
> 
> Yes, I understand how this happens, but I don't understand
> why iD doesn't prevent this action or at least warns the user.
> I am not aware of many tags which regularly contain lists,
> so I'd say it would be better to always warn or implement 
> a white list for those tags in iD.
> I am sure that it already would be a great improvement 
> if the 100 most often used tags are checked.
> 

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Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

[Gmail]

The TIGER argument is the only one I found sensible for having a merge function 
just one click away. But one could argue that this is a local case.
Would be cool if one could personalize the functions available on the ID flower.

Le 13 octobre 2015 16:30:14 UTC+02:00, Bryan Housel  a 
écrit :
>Large portions of the US TIGER import ended up heavily segmented, so
>merge happens to be really important for some places.
>
>
>> On Oct 13, 2015, at 9:50 AM, Gerd Petermann
> wrote:
>> yes, I contacted some editors and typically got positive feedback,
>> so it is clear to me that nobody intended to create unusable data.
>> 
>> I just don't understand why iD offers a method to combine elements
>> when this is such a tricky thing. Why would a "beginner" need that?
>> 
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-dev] iD creates invalid (?) highway tags

[Florian Lohoff]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 12:30:54PM +0200, Gerd Petermann wrote:
> Yes, I understand how this happens, but I don't understand
> why iD doesn't prevent this action or at least warns the user.
> I am not aware of many tags which regularly contain lists,
> so I'd say it would be better to always warn or implement 
> a white list for those tags in iD.
> I am sure that it already would be a great improvement 
> if the 100 most often used tags are checked.

It should not be a blacklist but a whitelist. Most tags make
absolutely no sense with a ; in them. Today its highway
tomorrow its landuse, maxspeed, bridge, tunnel, width, height
building etc which get combined.

The very easy fix is to refuse a merge/combine when there are
different tag values on the 2 segments with a popup. The user
then can cleanup by deleting the tags on one of the segments
and then join. (This is the proceedure i use with josm aswell
as its much quicker than to go through a lenghthy list of 
multiple choices)

The more advanced solution (But probably a lot more confusing for
the user) would be some multiple-choice like in josm.

I'd prefer the first solution. Still everything is possible
but its hard to get it wrong.

Flo
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