Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
> Isn't that lovely, needing 15 different software packages set up > and running to do what ONE well designed piece of software > should be able to do by itself? You don't use tmux? What do you use instead?
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
On Wed, Jul 5, 2023, at 11:04, Dave Blanchard wrote: > as if I was the enemy of mankind. Are you, tho?
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
On 6 July 2023 3:04:47 am NZST, Dave Blanchard wrote: >On Thu, 06 Jul 2023 00:01:43 +1200 >Miles Rout wrote: > >> There is a page on the website advertising all the many patches available to >> improve st and dwm. >> Few if any other software projects provide that these days, and are >> offended by forks. > >Actually few if any other software projects NEED to be patched to provide >basic ass functionality, like you know, SCROLLBACK BUFFERS IN A TERMINAL. Then why do they get new releases adding new features? Personally I don't use terminal emulator scrollback. It gets too confusing to have scrolling inside vim, AND in the terminal multiplexer, AND in the terminal emulator. Too many layers of scrollbacks with unintuitive interactions. It is like having workspaces AND windows AND tabs in your terminal emulator AND tabs in tmux AND tabs in vim. Too many layers of the same functionality with their own keybindings. > That patch is an absolute joke, BTW--again, it calls malloc() for EVERY LINE > of the scrollback buffer! It takes like a second just to open the terminal > with a large scrollback buffer, vs sanely-designed Xterm which starts > instantly! Don't use it then? Maybe that is why it is a patch. >There's also few software packages out there (in the sane real world) that >actually require you to EDIT THE SOURCE CODE AND RECOMPILE just to change >basic options! More's the pity! I wish more software were configurable with a config.h. Configuration file parsing is annoying, as there is no standard. It is annoying for the programmer, but also for the user. What syntax is required in Postfix? Can you generate configuration values using a function? (You can in a C header using simple macros.) Why reinvent the wheel? And it is the source of many security issues. >Want to use a different font in different terminals for different purposes? >Sorry, st doesn't support that feature, or ANY other features, AT ALL, unless >you personally write a patch to do it. Garbage. I have never needed to do that. Why would I want that misfeature in there, causing bugs and issues for me, when 99.9% of people will not do that? If you have some very specialist requirements, you should make them happen. BTW you can easily just compile multiple copies of the binary with different configurations. >> The suckless philosophy embraces forks and patches: > >Bzzt--WRONG. I suggested a fork of st on this list one time and was violently >assaulted as if I was the enemy of mankind. How do you get violently assaulted via email? Kind regards, Rout.
Re: [dev] Help to debug window name with special characters
Thank you so much NKR! The full output of xprop is the following: WM_LOCALE_NAME(STRING) = "en_US.UTF-8" WM_ICON_NAME(STRING) = "André Desgualdo Pereira.odt - OpenOffice Writer" WM_NAME(STRING) = "André Desgualdo Pereira.odt - OpenOffice Writer" WM_STATE(WM_STATE): window state: Normal icon window: 0x0 _MOTIF_WM_HINTS(_MOTIF_WM_HINTS) = 0xf, 0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0 WM_CLIENT_LEADER(WINDOW): window id # 0xe1 _NET_WM_PID(CARDINAL) = 26922 WM_CLIENT_MACHINE(STRING) = "desguai7" WM_NORMAL_HINTS(WM_SIZE_HINTS): program specified location: 0, 17 window gravity: Static WM_CLASS(STRING) = "VCLSalFrame", "OpenOffice 4.1.14" WM_PROTOCOLS(ATOM): protocols WM_DELETE_WINDOW WM_HINTS(WM_HINTS): Client accepts input or input focus: True bitmap id # to use for icon: 0xe0825f bitmap id # of mask for icon: 0xe08260 window id # of group leader: 0xe08248 XdndAware(ATOM) = BITMAP I upgraded my machine to Debian 12, unfortunatelly I can't test it back on Debian 11. desgua On 05/07/2023 21:40, NRK wrote: > On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 08:11:39AM -0300, Dr. André Desgualdo Pereira wrote: > > Also xprop show the window name correctly, but wmctrl shows "N/A". > > You might want to share the full output of xprop. Otherwise just sharing > the `*_NAME` properties is fine too: `xprop | grep _NAME` > > Since you said it works on debian 11, it might also be useful to share > the output of them from debian 11 and compare with 12 to see if anything > changed. > > (Specifically, I'm interested in the "type" of the property. If it's > anything other than STRING or UTF8_STRING then that might be a hint.) > > - NRK >
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
2023-07-05 17:04 GMT+02:00, Dave Blanchard : > Actually few if any other software projects NEED to be patched to provide > basic ass functionality, like you know, SCROLLBACK BUFFERS IN A TERMINAL. These are not "any other software projects".
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
On Tue, Jul 4, 2023 at 8:16 PM wrote: > I use ST without any patching, and have done so for years. It is very fast > and > works flawlessly in my experience. All the other terminals have serious > issues. In general, I agree with that statement. Most of the terminals are based on vte and that has had known security issues in the past. I typically use rxvt-unicode which has minimal dependencies and does not use vte thus avoiding its bugs. It also runs in daemon mode, so you can start new terminal windows up faster and decrease memory usage. It's useful on older computers. I haven't had any issues with it. Have you seen any serious issues with it documented? Thanks.
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
I've worked most of the things out. Almost there. This is not for them. This is for you, the server host. 700,000 people, I will be very glad with such a market size. It is so true that people don't give a rat's ass about their privacy! 1 step at a time. Let us form the critical mass now that the fantastic suckless devs have created this beautiful resource. With AllWinner RISCV out, Genode OS, tinycc, musl, dwm, dmenu, mini_httpd, opensmtpd, prosody, abiword, gnumeric, GIMP, lua, all our functionalities are covered and we can certainly make progress. Let us march forth, comrade! Thanking you Sagar Acharya https://humaaraartha.in 5 Jul 2023, 20:47 by d...@killthe.net: > On Wed, 5 Jul 2023 10:23:57 +0200 (CEST) > Sagar Acharya wrote: > >> That is exactly what I'm trying to achieve. Capital is whatI lack. Soon I >> will be releasing Libre-Ads, a random non-targeted ads system specially for >> Freedom respecting people. >> >> So self-hosters can self sustain and they don't have to beg for donations >> from companies who sell binaries and target ads. >> > > Dude, you are delusional. Plain and simple. > > Self-hosting has been completely possible since the beginning of time. It > costs peanuts. And look what we have instead: Facebook, Instagram, Gmail, and > so on. Nobody cares. > > You think 99% of the population gives a fuck about "binaries" or "targeted > ads"? These are the people who happily use nothing but Microsoft malware or > systemd or whatever and give zero fucks about privacy or freedom. They have > their every bowel movement or uttered thought tracked via "smart" devices, > and they LOVE IT. Every single "thought" anyone in this "society" ever has is > programmed in their minds by some corporate or government entity, and each > and every one of these people is perched on the edge of their seat in > anticipation of the day when their "smart" devices can directly read their > minds also, so they can have a more intimate connection to their slave > masters. They're better than you and smarter than you and they're sure of it, > and you can't tell them shit. > > You think ANYONE, particularly corporations who make all their money by > siphoning it out of the pockets of these people, collecting all of their > personal data and reselling it, while constantly brainwashing them to believe > whatever their owners want them to believe, give two shits about any "Libre" > ad system, or would have any use for that at all? > > It's non targeted? Who the fuck wants that? The people who own this world > want everybody TRACKED, TARGETED, OWNED--and their slaves WANT to be TRACKED, > TARGETED, OWNED, with a slave collar around their necks. Hard truth. The most > merciful thing you can actually do for any of these pitiful fools is grant > them a quick death. Abandon all hope of reeducating or reaching anyone, other > than a select, tiny few. > > If you believe that even 1% of 1% are interested in your dream of "self > hosting" anything, you are NOT living on the same planet as the rest of > humanity. >
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
> Joking aside, this case you're referring to, the opening post is a troll > post in my books, just because one of the reasons for a fork was "spaces > vs tabs". > > On the other hand, you're a troll in my books too; so I'll stop feeding you. Well, everyone is a troll in your book it seems. -- Nikita
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
On 4.7.2023 21.16, Dave Blanchard wrote: People on this email list tend to go to an extreme in favoring simplicity above all else, which is why they release dumpster fires like the ST terminal emulator for example which has absolutely no features at all, is riddled with bugs and compatibility problems, and requires extensive patching to add in any useful features. The developers are also basement-dwelling losers, total raging assholes who take personal offense to the suggestion that their code should be better commented or that someone might fork the code to make an improved version. I wish I had a basement, you inconsiderate clot! Joking aside, this case you're referring to, the opening post is a troll post in my books, just because one of the reasons for a fork was "spaces vs tabs". On the other hand, you're a troll in my books too; so I'll stop feeding you. -- Santtu
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
On Wed, 5 Jul 2023 10:04:47 -0500 Dave Blanchard wrote: > On Thu, 06 Jul 2023 00:01:43 +1200 > Miles Rout wrote: > > > There is a page on the website advertising all the many patches available > > to improve st and dwm. > > Few if any other software projects provide that these days, and are > > offended by forks. > > Actually few if any other software projects NEED to be patched to provide > basic ass functionality, like you know, SCROLLBACK BUFFERS IN A TERMINAL. > That patch is an absolute joke, BTW--again, it calls malloc() for EVERY LINE > of the scrollback buffer! It takes like a second just to open the terminal > with a large scrollback buffer, vs sanely-designed Xterm which starts > instantly! One malloc per line isn't really something to lost any sleep over. And you don't necessarily need scrollback in your terminal — most terminals, including st, do not support splitting to open new terminals, which is an even more important functionally that you don't need your terminal to implement either: tmux and similar software can provide this, and you can make your terminal run tmux automatically. And if the machine isn't used interactively, if it's just a monitor displaying information (surf is commonly used to display Jenkins and similar software), you definitely do not need this. Only having the absolute basics and that patch in those things you personally need is quite nice. And if you want to fork the software, or just study it to understand how the different functionalities are implemented, it's unbeatable. I personally do not have any patches applied to any suckless software, and it works just fine for me. A lot of popular terminals, and st's patches, implement a bunch of features that I really don't have any interest, and sometimes, I don't even think they belong in a terminal emulator, or any software running in it, at all. > > There's also few software packages out there (in the sane real world) that > actually require you to EDIT THE SOURCE CODE AND RECOMPILE just to change > basic options! > > Want to use a different font in different terminals for different purposes? > Sorry, st doesn't support that feature, or ANY other features, AT ALL, unless > you personally write a patch to do it. Garbage. > > > The suckless philosophy embraces forks and patches: > > Bzzt--WRONG. I suggested a fork of st on this list one time and was violently > assaulted as if I was the enemy of mankind. > > That is the real world. You are living in a delusional fantasy. > > > Ok this is obviously just contrarian trolling, > > nobody who has read xterm's source code > > thinks it is any good. > > I read Xterm's source code, and I use it daily. It's my most used application > by far. I KNOW that it is good. It beats the brakes off the useless, > featureless piece of trash that is ST. >
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
On Wed, 5 Jul 2023 10:19:36 -0500 Dave Blanchard wrote: > On Wed, 5 Jul 2023 10:23:57 +0200 (CEST) > Sagar Acharya wrote: > > > That is exactly what I'm trying to achieve. Capital is whatI lack. Soon I > > will be releasing Libre-Ads, a random non-targeted ads system specially for > > Freedom respecting people. > > > > So self-hosters can self sustain and they don't have to beg for donations > > from companies who sell binaries and target ads. > > Dude, you are delusional. Plain and simple. > > Self-hosting has been completely possible since the beginning of time. It > costs peanuts. And look what we have instead: Facebook, Instagram, Gmail, and > so on. Nobody cares. > > You think 99% of the population gives a fuck about "binaries" or "targeted > ads"? These are the people who happily use nothing but Microsoft malware or > systemd or whatever and give zero fucks about privacy or freedom. They have > their every bowel movement or uttered thought tracked via "smart" devices, > and they LOVE IT. Every single "thought" anyone in this "society" ever has is > programmed in their minds by some corporate or government entity, and each > and every one of these people is perched on the edge of their seat in > anticipation of the day when their "smart" devices can directly read their > minds also, so they can have a more intimate connection to their slave > masters. They're better than you and smarter than you and they're sure of it, > and you can't tell them shit. > > You think ANYONE, particularly corporations who make all their money by > siphoning it out of the pockets of these people, collecting all of their > personal data and reselling it, while constantly brainwashing them to believe > whatever their owners want them to believe, give two shits about any "Libre" > ad system, or would have any use for that at all? > > It's non targeted? Who the fuck wants that? The people who own this world > want everybody TRACKED, TARGETED, OWNED--and their slaves WANT to be TRACKED, > TARGETED, OWNED, with a slave collar around their necks. Hard truth. The most > merciful thing you can actually do for any of these pitiful fools is grant > them a quick death. Abandon all hope of reeducating or reaching anyone, other > than a select, tiny few. In your early 20s? > > If you believe that even 1% of 1% are interested in your dream of "self > hosting" anything, you are NOT living on the same planet as the rest of > humanity. > > >
Re: [dev] Help to debug window name with special characters
Some window name are incomplete on dwm status (screenshot attached). The name is "cut" after the first special character (for example: if a window name is "André Desgualdo Pereira" it will show only "Andr"). Everyone knows that special characters are bloat, duh. Your system must use only use ASCII. (sarcasm) -- Nikita
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
Oh, what a shitshow did I just start with that thread... -- Nikita
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
On Wed Jul 5, 2023 at 11:19 AM EDT, Dave Blanchard wrote: > On Wed, 5 Jul 2023 10:23:57 +0200 (CEST) > Sagar Acharya wrote: > > > That is exactly what I'm trying to achieve. Capital is whatI lack. Soon I > > will be releasing Libre-Ads, a random non-targeted ads system specially for > > Freedom respecting people. > > > > So self-hosters can self sustain and they don't have to beg for donations > > from companies who sell binaries and target ads. > > Dude, you are delusional. Plain and simple. > > (rant) > > If you believe that even 1% of 1% are interested in your dream of "self > hosting" anything, you are NOT living on the same planet as the rest of > humanity. That's not very hackerly of you to say. Seems like a neat idea Sagar, I wish you luck with it.
Re: [dev] Help to debug window name with special characters
On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 08:11:39AM -0300, Dr. André Desgualdo Pereira wrote: > Also xprop show the window name correctly, but wmctrl shows "N/A". You might want to share the full output of xprop. Otherwise just sharing the `*_NAME` properties is fine too: `xprop | grep _NAME` Since you said it works on debian 11, it might also be useful to share the output of them from debian 11 and compare with 12 to see if anything changed. (Specifically, I'm interested in the "type" of the property. If it's anything other than STRING or UTF8_STRING then that might be a hint.) - NRK
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
On Wed, 5 Jul 2023 10:23:57 +0200 (CEST) Sagar Acharya wrote: > That is exactly what I'm trying to achieve. Capital is whatI lack. Soon I > will be releasing Libre-Ads, a random non-targeted ads system specially for > Freedom respecting people. > > So self-hosters can self sustain and they don't have to beg for donations > from companies who sell binaries and target ads. Dude, you are delusional. Plain and simple. Self-hosting has been completely possible since the beginning of time. It costs peanuts. And look what we have instead: Facebook, Instagram, Gmail, and so on. Nobody cares. You think 99% of the population gives a fuck about "binaries" or "targeted ads"? These are the people who happily use nothing but Microsoft malware or systemd or whatever and give zero fucks about privacy or freedom. They have their every bowel movement or uttered thought tracked via "smart" devices, and they LOVE IT. Every single "thought" anyone in this "society" ever has is programmed in their minds by some corporate or government entity, and each and every one of these people is perched on the edge of their seat in anticipation of the day when their "smart" devices can directly read their minds also, so they can have a more intimate connection to their slave masters. They're better than you and smarter than you and they're sure of it, and you can't tell them shit. You think ANYONE, particularly corporations who make all their money by siphoning it out of the pockets of these people, collecting all of their personal data and reselling it, while constantly brainwashing them to believe whatever their owners want them to believe, give two shits about any "Libre" ad system, or would have any use for that at all? It's non targeted? Who the fuck wants that? The people who own this world want everybody TRACKED, TARGETED, OWNED--and their slaves WANT to be TRACKED, TARGETED, OWNED, with a slave collar around their necks. Hard truth. The most merciful thing you can actually do for any of these pitiful fools is grant them a quick death. Abandon all hope of reeducating or reaching anyone, other than a select, tiny few. If you believe that even 1% of 1% are interested in your dream of "self hosting" anything, you are NOT living on the same planet as the rest of humanity.
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
On Thu, 06 Jul 2023 00:01:43 +1200 Miles Rout wrote: > There is a page on the website advertising all the many patches available to > improve st and dwm. > Few if any other software projects provide that these days, and are offended > by forks. Actually few if any other software projects NEED to be patched to provide basic ass functionality, like you know, SCROLLBACK BUFFERS IN A TERMINAL. That patch is an absolute joke, BTW--again, it calls malloc() for EVERY LINE of the scrollback buffer! It takes like a second just to open the terminal with a large scrollback buffer, vs sanely-designed Xterm which starts instantly! There's also few software packages out there (in the sane real world) that actually require you to EDIT THE SOURCE CODE AND RECOMPILE just to change basic options! Want to use a different font in different terminals for different purposes? Sorry, st doesn't support that feature, or ANY other features, AT ALL, unless you personally write a patch to do it. Garbage. > The suckless philosophy embraces forks and patches: Bzzt--WRONG. I suggested a fork of st on this list one time and was violently assaulted as if I was the enemy of mankind. That is the real world. You are living in a delusional fantasy. > Ok this is obviously just contrarian trolling, > nobody who has read xterm's source code > thinks it is any good. I read Xterm's source code, and I use it daily. It's my most used application by far. I KNOW that it is good. It beats the brakes off the useless, featureless piece of trash that is ST.
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
On Wed, 5 Jul 2023 11:56:58 +0300 Sergey Matveev wrote: > >I did manage to open you article, although I had to use a VPN. For some > >reason website doesn't load without it. Greetings from Russia! > > It is available only through IPv6. I use https://ipv6.ip4market.ru/ > tunnel broker here to reach that non-legacy modern Internet world. LOL! And here we have yet another example of the absolute nuttery of this community. "Non-legacy modern internet world." Last I checked, the "modern" internet still runs on IPV4, not IPV6! It's only a few eggheads wearing pocket protectors who--in their frequent hitting of the crack pipe-- insist that IPV6 is any kind of widespread, ubiquitous standard and the "few people" still using IPV4 are somehow antiquated and backwards. You really think I want every single atom in my house to be individually addressible and reachable by the outside world? IPV4 is one of the few reasons why my local computing resources can still have ANY privacy! What if I told you the entire internet in general is garbage and all of you are fools for thinking it's anything special? KILL THE NET.
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
On Wed, 5 Jul 2023 11:55:59 +0300 Sergey Matveev wrote: > *** s...@plunder.tech [2023-07-04 19:37]: > >I use ST without any patching, and have done so for years. It is very fast > >and > >works flawlessly in my experience. All the other terminals have serious > >issues. > > Agreed! I use st for more than 10 years already and completely do not > understand what are people missing from it, except for useless things > that must not be in it (like scrollback support). Useless things like scrollback support. LOL > No noticeable or any seriously impacting issues I can remember so far. Other than all of the "useless" missing features of course. And I guess you did not run into the multitude of noticeable little compatibility problems with software that is designed to expect the behavior of the gold standard, Xterm. > It does everything is > should. I run it with tmux running inside for scrollback, history > searching, multiple cut-n-paste buffers and so on. Isn't that lovely, needing 15 different software packages set up and running to do what ONE well designed piece of software should be able to do by itself? > Thanks suckless community and its developers for their wonderful > software (I use dwm, st, dmenu, tabbed, slock) and inspiration resources > for non-bloated sane software! Yes, it's so sane that you can't even configure the thing on the command line; you have to EDIT THE SOURCE FILE to change any options! And then when you complain that some of the options are completely undocumented, be prepared to be assaulted by some egghead who will scream at you that "well it CLEARLY says right here on page 573 of the Snorfus Obscure Guide to Terminal Interactions if you had only BOTHERED to look for that SNAGUWFLL means FooBarusLegolas, FOOL. Obviously you are too much of an IDIOT to use this software." If that's sanity, lock me up in the asylum, please.
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
On 5.7.2023 11.01, Nikita Krasnov wrote:> Where do *you* draw the line when it comes to what software to use? There's no reason to draw any lines, just use what works for you. Personally I prefer simple software for multitude reasons: - they start up faster than my attention span runs out - they don't get in the way with suggestions i.e. guesses - they don't hog up all resources if left running - they're easy to modify, should I need to change something In general, writing simple software requires the developer to understand the application area well, and there's some good idea behind the implementation. Then it simply boils down to whether that idea matches the way you want things to work. If you have the time and motivation, try different things. If you don't, stick to what you know. Repeat ad mortem. -- Santtu
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
On 5 July 2023 6:16:34 am NZST, Dave Blanchard wrote: >People on this email list tend to go to an extreme in favoring simplicity >above all else, which is why they release dumpster fires like the ST terminal >emulator for example which has absolutely no features at all, is riddled with >bugs and compatibility problems, and requires extensive patching to add in any >useful features. The developers are also basement-dwelling losers, total >raging assholes who take personal offense to the suggestion that their code >should be better commented or that someone might fork the code to make an >improved version. There is a page on the website advertising all the many patches available to improve st and dwm. Few if any other software projects provide that these days, and are offended by forks. The suckless philosophy embraces forks and patches: they are minimal as a starting point, and you can easily add the features you like. >I tried ST for a time before realizing it was trash and just switched back to >Xterm, the gold standard of functional X11 terminal emulators, which the ST >developers talked shit about, calling "bloated" in their documentation, and >saying the code wasn't good. Actually it is not bloated, the code quality is >much higher than ST (and is actually commented!), It Just Works(TM), and it's >noticeably faster as well when ST is patched with the juvenile "scrollback >buffer support" implementation--which calls malloc() once for every line(!) of >the scrollback buffer. Ok this is obviously just contrarian trolling, nobody who has read xterm's source code thinks it is any good.
[dev] Help to debug window name with special characters
I would really appreciate some help on debugging a problem on displaying certain windows names. Some window name are incomplete on dwm status (screenshot attached). The name is "cut" after the first special character (for example: if a window name is "André Desgualdo Pereira" it will show only "Andr"). It doesn't happen with every program, but it happens with OpenOffice and Libreoffice. Also xprop show the window name correctly, but wmctrl shows "N/A". Also it didn't happen with Debian 11. It is happening with Debian 12. I already recompiled dwm and reconfigured libc6 libglib2.0-0:amd64 libxmu6:amd64 libx11-6:amd64 Any help on wherelse to check would be really appreciated. ~ $ locale LANG=en_US.UTF-8 LANGUAGE=en_US:en LC_CTYPE="en_US.UTF-8" LC_NUMERIC="en_US.UTF-8" LC_TIME="en_US.UTF-8" LC_COLLATE="en_US.UTF-8" LC_MONETARY="en_US.UTF-8" LC_MESSAGES="en_US.UTF-8" LC_PAPER="en_US.UTF-8" LC_NAME="en_US.UTF-8" LC_ADDRESS="en_US.UTF-8" LC_TELEPHONE="en_US.UTF-8" LC_MEASUREMENT="en_US.UTF-8" LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_US.UTF-8" LC_ALL= desgua
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
On Wed 05 Jul 2023, Nikita Krasnov wrote: > > > > I'm on this mailing list to stay in the loop on updates and patches to > > software I use. Not present evangelical arguments to someone who doesn't > > know what to believe in. > > [P]lus, it's not like it's too busy here anyways. Would you also remark on how empty your neighbour’s living room is as justification when you move your storage boxes into it? The list is certainly a lot busier with this thread on it than it was some time ago. Whether this is for the better or not I leave for others to decide. Some of us consider evangelism a disease. There is plenty on the website and elsewhere written about software minimalism. If using such software and the existing writing does not convince you, that is perfectly fine and you are no lesser of a human because of it and the existential angst is most likely unwarranted.
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
*** Nikita Krasnov [2023-07-05 10:47]: >> Thanking you Sagar Acharya https://humaaraartha.in > >I did manage to open you article, although I had to use a VPN. For some >reason website doesn't load without it. Greetings from Russia! It is available only through IPv6. I use https://ipv6.ip4market.ru/ tunnel broker here to reach that non-legacy modern Internet world. -- Sergey Matveev (http://www.stargrave.org/) OpenPGP: 12AD 3268 9C66 0D42 6967 FD75 CB82 0563 2107 AD8A
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
*** s...@plunder.tech [2023-07-04 19:37]: >I use ST without any patching, and have done so for years. It is very fast and >works flawlessly in my experience. All the other terminals have serious >issues. Agreed! I use st for more than 10 years already and completely do not understand what are people missing from it, except for useless things that must not be in it (like scrollback support). No noticeable or any seriously impacting issues I can remember so far. It does everything is should. I run it with tmux running inside for scrollback, history searching, multiple cut-n-paste buffers and so on. Thanks suckless community and its developers for their wonderful software (I use dwm, st, dmenu, tabbed, slock) and inspiration resources for non-bloated sane software! -- Sergey Matveev (http://www.stargrave.org/) OpenPGP: 12AD 3268 9C66 0D42 6967 FD75 CB82 0563 2107 AD8A
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
But at the end of the day, I'm not really interested in trying to forcefully "convert" you (or anyone else) since I believe that people should be able to do what they want with their computers. As if I'm against it. Convert me as much as you'd like to~ But in all seriousness though. I'll try to use more simple software for some time and try to get used to it. I do see it's advantages. It's just that the disadvantages are to big for me. But that can easily be a problem of not being used to it and not having the right habit yet. -- Nikita
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
One of the key problems I find today is that of separating bots from humans. If we fail to do so, bots can be innumerable speaking from a vast IPv6 space. All attempts to correct such attack will fail! Once we take a whitelisting approach, that of fixing IPv6 addresses and moving forward with decentralized servers with people hosting themselves, progress will be made. Yea, the Dead Internet Theory. I don't think I really care that much though. Like, yea, this kinda sucks that nowadays every time you see a comment or a review you have to second guess if it's actually made by a real person, but while there are places like this I can live with that. There always should be an option for people who do care. Regular people hosting themselves will never be achievable. It's not even about if it is hard to do. People can't spend even a fraction of there time on their own privacy. And these days it's dead simple to have a password manager and an ad block. That's the bare minimum and most people still struggle. No matter how easy you'll make it to have your own server most people still won't have it simple because they also don't have a need for it. I can't imagine a regular Joe (no offense to anyone with that name here) to setup a VPS, host his own website or do literally anything else that would make him distinguishable from bots. -- Nikita (not a bot)
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
I have analysed this a while ago, so I would point you to this nice article by me. https://humaaraartha.in/sagar/trusting_no_one.html Thanking you Sagar Acharya https://humaaraartha.in I did manage to open you article, although I had to use a VPN. For some reason website doesn't load without it. Greetings from Russia! -- Nikita
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
If you don't care then why are you here? Please don't take this personally. Controversy is really not the thing I was trying to achieve. I'm on this mailing list to stay in the loop on updates and patches to software I use. Not present evangelical arguments to someone who doesn't know what to believe in. Well, this list is mostly for discussion as said on the website[1]. The list for patches and upstream patch discussion is . And, plus, it's not like it's too busy here anyways. Use the software, or don't. No one is holding a gun to your head. Yea, that's exactly the point. Of course I can use whatever I want and however I want, but I want to know what approach do other people have. Where do *you* draw the line when it comes to what software to use? [1]: https://suckless.org/community/ -- Nikita
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
On Tue, Jul 04, 2023 at 07:06:12PM +0300, Nikita Krasnov wrote: > What would be the point of using minimalist software if bloated and > excessively complex programs completely satisfy all my needs? I ask this question the other way around, "Why would I use a bloated complex program when a simple one fills my needs?" https://youtube.com/watch?v=k0qmkQGqpM8 > Such minimalism just seems unpractical to me. My experience has been the opposite, it's the bloated programs that are hard to customize whenever I want to do something even *slightly* outside the box. But at the end of the day, I'm not really interested in trying to forcefully "convert" you (or anyone else) since I believe that people should be able to do what they want with their computers. - NRK
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
Well, firstly I suggest using disroot instead of gmail. That is a good start. One of the key problems I find today is that of separating bots from humans. If we fail to do so, bots can be innumerable speaking from a vast IPv6 space. All attempts to correct such attack will fail! Once we take a whitelisting approach, that of fixing IPv6 addresses and moving forward with decentralized servers with people hosting themselves, progress will be made. Thanking you Sagar Acharya https://humaaraartha.in 5 Jul 2023, 00:25 by nikita.nikita.kras...@gmail.com: >> I take a practical approach. I use simple programs when they do the job >> well, and more complex programs when >> they get the job done better. Sometimes a simple program >> can be useful for certain jobs, such as ones involving >> shell scripting, whereas a complex program may be more >> useful for example in other applications, such as using Solidworks for >> engineering work. LaTeX is certainly a bloated monstrosity, but the damn >> thing is useful for a lot of different tasks. >> >> People on this email list tend to go to an extreme in favoring simplicity >> above all else, which is why they release dumpster fires like the ST >> terminal emulator for example which has absolutely no features at all, is >> riddled with bugs and compatibility problems, and requires extensive >> patching to add in any useful features. The developers are also >> basement-dwelling losers, total raging assholes who take personal offense to >> the suggestion that their code should be better commented or that someone >> might fork the code to make an improved version. >> >> I tried ST for a time before realizing it was trash and just switched back >> to Xterm, the gold standard of functional X11 terminal emulators, which the >> ST developers talked shit about, calling "bloated" in their documentation, >> and saying the code wasn't good. Actually it is not bloated, the code >> quality is much higher than ST (and is actually commented!), It Just >> Works(TM), and it's noticeably faster as well when ST is patched with the >> juvenile "scrollback buffer support" implementation--which calls malloc() >> once for every line(!) of the scrollback buffer. >> >> Take anything that a religious cult member says with a grain of salt. >> >> Dave >> > > Oof, I feel like that's gonna start one hell of a flame war right now. > > About suckless's software. Personally, I've got an impression that it's not > about personal use. Like, you aren't really expected to install ST as you > main and everyday terminal. These programs are more of a collection of tools > that should be combined and embedded as a foundation for something bigger. > > Firefox will always be better than surf, it just will. But replacing Firefox > is not what surf should strive for. It's more of a tool for situations when > you need an ability to embed a website and full-blown Firefox or Chrome will > be an overkill. > > That said, if there are any compatibility problems _(which there probably > are, since why shouldn't there be any compatibility problems when your main > goal when writing software is to make it as small as possible)_ than that > kind of ruins the whole purpose of all of this... > > -- > Nikita >
