Re: XULRunner future and ownership

2015-07-30 Thread Mike de Boer
I’d like to finetune my earlier statement - after talking things over a bit 
with Benjamin - to say: I’d like to volunteer if there’s no one else moving 
forward to take this project on.

The reason is that I’m not currently working on or using XULRunner tech, so my 
level of engagement is low. I’m only really interested in a gecko bootstrap 
binary (called ‘xulrunner-stub’ at the moment) to continue to exist for my 
future projects.

If there’s someone who’s using XULRunner frequently for their projects, I’m 
sure she or he will be a much better fit! Please step forward. :-)

Cheers,

Mike.


 On 29 Jul 2015, at 23:46, Mike de Boer mdeb...@mozilla.com wrote:
 
 I’d like to volunteer.
 
 Not much more to say, really :-)
 
 Cheers,
 
 Mike.
 
 On 29 Jul 2015, at 20:30, Benjamin Smedberg benja...@smedbergs.us wrote:
 
 The Mozilla project no longer sees XULRunner as a priority project. It's not 
 core to advancing the open web or any of our current or planned products.
 
 As Ben Hearsum noted a couple weeks ago, we are turning off automated 
 XULRunner builds and so XULRunner will probably quickly cease to work. In 
 order to keep XULRunner in the tree, we need an owner who wants to keep it 
 building and running properly. Currently, I am the nominal owner of the 
 XULRunner code, but I have no desire to do this work or even really to 
 review the necessary patches. I am looking to see whether there is an 
 alternate owner who is interested in the task of keeping XULRunner building 
 and running properly and reviewing patches to XULRuner-specific code. Please 
 contact me if you want to nominate yourself or somebody else for this role.
 
 If I do not find a suitable owner in the next two weeks, I intend to remove 
 the XULRunner code from the mozilla-central repository on 14-August.
 
 --BDS
 
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Re: XULRunner future and ownership

2015-07-30 Thread reverendlinux
On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 at 8:44:57 PM UTC-6, Eric Shepherd wrote:
 Benjamin Smedberg wrote:
  I am looking to see whether there is an alternate owner who is
  interested in the task of keeping XULRunner building and running
  properly and reviewing patches to XULRuner-specific code. Please
  contact me if you want to nominate yourself or somebody else for this
  role. 
 I should note also that the MDN staff can't put any time into helping
 with XULRunner specific documentation anymore, so any documentation work
 would have to be taken up by the person or people that pick up the project.
 
 I would, however, be quite happy to spend some time helping whoever
 takes on that work -- or whoever picks up writing work for it -- on
 exactly how to contribute the needed material to MDN.
 
 -- 
 
 Eric Shepherd
 Senior Technical Writer
 Mozilla https://www.mozilla.org/
 Blog: http://www.bitstampede.com/
 Twitter: http://twitter.com/sheppy
 Check my Availability https://freebusy.io/esheph...@mozilla.com

I'll volunteer to help out with documentation.
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Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

2015-07-30 Thread James Burke
There are some forces at play in a web app that point to wanting to delay
layout and rendering until a web app gives a signal that it should start:

* ECMAScript modules, and even developer constructed JS module systems
today, rely on async loading of scripts.

* Custom elements need their JS registered with the browser before they are
fully useful.

* Apps can have dependencies on async IDB operations to know what UI to
first show. For instance, if the user does not have a saved account, show
the sign in view instead of the app data view.

* We want fast app startups in B2G/Gaia. Typically we lose
layout/render/paint time while we wait for these async mechanisms to
finish, and the paints are not useful for the user in the meantime.

In addition, there is a possibility that custom elements may take a path of
synchronous construction with no later upgrades, which means the JS for the
custom element needs to be registered before any custom element is used in
the DOM.

A similar case surfaced a while back in the context of B2G, and at the time
I filed bug 863499[2], which focused on a document.mozDelayLoadEvent /
document.mozStopDelayingLoadEvent JS API around controlling the load event
firing.

At that time, the concern was about losing times to wasted renders and the
effects on screen shots.

However, I believe the main concern now is getting enough JS and app data
loaded to allow layout to be effective in fewer passes than strictly about
the final render and load event. So maybe the API should be more about
delaying layout than about the load event?

In talking to Wilson Page, he mentioned something like a
document.pauseLayout() document.resumeLayout(), not sure if there are
existing thoughts around that.

If that seemed workable, maybe also a html mozPauseLayout type of
attribute, so the browser knows as soon as possible to pause its work,
instead of relying on a JS API.

For Gaia apps, we use a CSP policy that does not allow inline scripts, so
the attribute on a tag is more appealing for that reason. A nonced script
might be a workable alternative for the CSP case, if an attribute was too
much of a stretch.

Happy to hear about any suggestions for the general goal,
James

[1] Service workers help a bit here, but do not help the other aync forces.
[2] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=863499
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Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

2015-07-30 Thread Jeff Muizelaar
Can't you just make everything display:none until you're ready to show it?

-Jeff

On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 4:20 PM, James Burke jbu...@mozilla.com wrote:
 There are some forces at play in a web app that point to wanting to delay
 layout and rendering until a web app gives a signal that it should start:

 * ECMAScript modules, and even developer constructed JS module systems
 today, rely on async loading of scripts.

 * Custom elements need their JS registered with the browser before they are
 fully useful.

 * Apps can have dependencies on async IDB operations to know what UI to
 first show. For instance, if the user does not have a saved account, show
 the sign in view instead of the app data view.

 * We want fast app startups in B2G/Gaia. Typically we lose
 layout/render/paint time while we wait for these async mechanisms to
 finish, and the paints are not useful for the user in the meantime.

 In addition, there is a possibility that custom elements may take a path of
 synchronous construction with no later upgrades, which means the JS for the
 custom element needs to be registered before any custom element is used in
 the DOM.

 A similar case surfaced a while back in the context of B2G, and at the time
 I filed bug 863499[2], which focused on a document.mozDelayLoadEvent /
 document.mozStopDelayingLoadEvent JS API around controlling the load event
 firing.

 At that time, the concern was about losing times to wasted renders and the
 effects on screen shots.

 However, I believe the main concern now is getting enough JS and app data
 loaded to allow layout to be effective in fewer passes than strictly about
 the final render and load event. So maybe the API should be more about
 delaying layout than about the load event?

 In talking to Wilson Page, he mentioned something like a
 document.pauseLayout() document.resumeLayout(), not sure if there are
 existing thoughts around that.

 If that seemed workable, maybe also a html mozPauseLayout type of
 attribute, so the browser knows as soon as possible to pause its work,
 instead of relying on a JS API.

 For Gaia apps, we use a CSP policy that does not allow inline scripts, so
 the attribute on a tag is more appealing for that reason. A nonced script
 might be a workable alternative for the CSP case, if an attribute was too
 much of a stretch.

 Happy to hear about any suggestions for the general goal,
 James

 [1] Service workers help a bit here, but do not help the other aync forces.
 [2] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=863499
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Re: layers.async-pan-zoom.enabled amazing performance increase

2015-07-30 Thread Andreas Tolfsen
On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 10:15 AM webko...@gmail.com wrote:

 Problem it this introduced some bugs, like disabling scrolling completely
 on some pages, such as a google search page.


Did you report a bug on this yet?  I find this can be reproduced reliably
by loading in more log history in an application like IRCCloud, and then
scrolling up.

Superficially it seems to have to do with overflow: auto not respecting the
z-index.

I'm quite sure this can be distilled down to a reproducible test case.
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Re: DXR: the new_one

2015-07-30 Thread Peter Elmers
A reminder that my presentation is less than an hour away!

It'll be live in MV commons as well as streamed on AirMo at 3pm PDT; tune
in to hear the latest on what's happening in DXR land.

Thanks,
Peter


On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 8:33 AM, Peter Elmers pelm...@mozilla.com wrote:

 Hello!

 I'm Peter (:new_one), this summer's DXR intern. My internship is drawing
 to a close, and with that comes my final presentation.

 This Thursday (July 30) at 3pm PDT from the MV commons, I'll be giving a
 10-minute overview of what DXR is, what's planned, and three things I've
 done over the last couple of months: permalinks, path promotion, and XPIDL
 support.

 I'll be happy for you to attend!

 Thanks,
 Peter


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Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

2015-07-30 Thread David Rajchenbach-Teller
I can't speak about the validity of the requirement, but in terms of
API, we probably want something more compositional, if several codepaths
need to stop rendering. And then, we end up with the possibility that
someone forgets to enable rendering, with all the ensuing debugging joy.

Since this is exactly the kind of issue we fight with Async Shutdown, I
would suggest an API that looks more like

document.mozLayout.addBlocker(Hey, I need to finish looking at IDB,
  somePromise);

This will let the DevTools inspect the state, either to find out which
of the blockers is slow to respond, or to find which of the blockers
doesn't respond at all.

Cheers,
 David

On 30/07/15 22:20, James Burke wrote:
 In talking to Wilson Page, he mentioned something like a
 document.pauseLayout() document.resumeLayout(), not sure if there are
 existing thoughts around that.
 
 If that seemed workable, maybe also a html mozPauseLayout type of
 attribute, so the browser knows as soon as possible to pause its work,
 instead of relying on a JS API.
 
 For Gaia apps, we use a CSP policy that does not allow inline scripts, so
 the attribute on a tag is more appealing for that reason. A nonced script
 might be a workable alternative for the CSP case, if an attribute was too
 much of a stretch.
 
 Happy to hear about any suggestions for the general goal,
 James
 
 [1] Service workers help a bit here, but do not help the other aync forces.
 [2] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=863499
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 Performance Team, Mozilla



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Re: layers.async-pan-zoom.enabled amazing performance increase

2015-07-30 Thread Kartikaya Gupta
The OP filed bug 1189237 for this issue, but it seems like it was
reported on Firefox 39 where we don't support async-pan-zoom. If you
can reproduce this issue in a Nightly build please file a new bug.

Thanks,
kats

On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Andreas Tolfsen a...@mozilla.com wrote:
 On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 10:15 AM webko...@gmail.com wrote:

 Problem it this introduced some bugs, like disabling scrolling completely
 on some pages, such as a google search page.


 Did you report a bug on this yet?  I find this can be reproduced reliably
 by loading in more log history in an application like IRCCloud, and then
 scrolling up.

 Superficially it seems to have to do with overflow: auto not respecting the
 z-index.

 I'm quite sure this can be distilled down to a reproducible test case.
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Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

2015-07-30 Thread Bobby Holley
On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 4:27 PM, James Burke jbu...@mozilla.com wrote:

 On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 1:28 PM, Jeff Muizelaar jmuizel...@mozilla.com
 wrote:
  Can't you just make everything display:none until you're ready to show
 it?

 Just using display: none seems like it will run into the same problem
 that prompted bug 863499, where the browser did some render/paints of
 a white page, which took time away from the async work completing.

 So maybe I should not frame it as just pausing layout? I was hoping it
 would also delay render and maybe paints that happen during startup,
 so more time is given up front to the async activities.


Painting a document with display:none on the body should be more or less
free, I'd think. If it isn't, please file a bug.
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Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

2015-07-30 Thread James Burke
On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 1:28 PM, Jeff Muizelaar jmuizel...@mozilla.com wrote:
 Can't you just make everything display:none until you're ready to show it?

Just using display: none seems like it will run into the same problem
that prompted bug 863499, where the browser did some render/paints of
a white page, which took time away from the async work completing.

So maybe I should not frame it as just pausing layout? I was hoping it
would also delay render and maybe paints that happen during startup,
so more time is given up front to the async activities.

James
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Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

2015-07-30 Thread Karl Tomlinson
James Burke writes:

 On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 1:28 PM, Jeff Muizelaar jmuizel...@mozilla.com 
 wrote:
 Can't you just make everything display:none until you're ready to show it?

 Just using display: none seems like it will run into the same problem
 that prompted bug 863499, where the browser did some render/paints of
 a white page, which took time away from the async work completing.

 So maybe I should not frame it as just pausing layout? I was hoping it
 would also delay render and maybe paints that happen during startup,
 so more time is given up front to the async activities.

If the window is shown, then something will be rendered.

Perhaps you want to delay showing the window?
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Re: On the future of keygen and application/x-x509-*-cert MIME handling

2015-07-30 Thread Anne van Kesteren
On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 1:35 AM, David Keeler dkee...@mozilla.com wrote:
 I therefore propose we follow suit and begin the process of deprecating
 and removing these features. The intention of this post is to begin a
 discussion to determine the feasibility of doing so.

Deprecating and adding counters seems meaningful. It's not supported
across all browsers and it seems unlikely to ever be successful. If we
can make that clear to more folks by console warnings and some
outreach that seems like a good thing to do for the web.

Safari still supporting it is somewhat worrisome. We're in the process
of implementing and standardizing many -webkit- features due to
Safari's dominance on mobile.


-- 
https://annevankesteren.nl/
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Re: Should the entire JS structure be Object.freeze()'d if it's exposed through a read only property?

2015-07-30 Thread Anne van Kesteren
On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 9:00 AM, Tim Guan-tin Chien
timdr...@mozilla.com wrote:
 This is not as convenient as a keyword in WebIDL but I think it's good enough.

You might want to chime in on

  https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=29004

which is asking for something similar (though more scoped).

Note though that frozen in JavaScript only freezes the properties. If
the object has private state that can still be modified through other
means. E.g., freezing a Set or Map might not do what you expect it to
do.


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Re: On the future of keygen and application/x-x509-*-cert MIME handling

2015-07-30 Thread Richard Barnes
On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 6:33 AM, Anne van Kesteren ann...@annevk.nl wrote:

 On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 12:28 PM, Teoli
 news.fakeaddress@localhost.invalid wrote:
  Do you think it is already worth to flag it as deprecated in the MDN
  documentation as Google plans to remove it too?

 Yeah, seems worth a note at least given that Microsoft doesn't ship it
 either (nor plans to ever). I'll probably get the HTML Standard
 updated too in due course.


+1





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Re: On the future of keygen and application/x-x509-*-cert MIME handling

2015-07-30 Thread Richard Barnes
On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 6:53 AM, Hubert Kario hka...@redhat.com wrote:

 On Wednesday 29 July 2015 16:35:41 David Keeler wrote:
  [cc'd to dev-security for visibility. This discussion is intended to
  happen on dev-platform; please reply to that list.]
 
  Ryan Sleevi recently announced the pre-intention to deprecate and
  eventually remove support for the keygen element and special-case
  handling of the application/x-x509-*-cert MIME types from the blink
  platform (i.e. Chrome).
 
  Rather than reiterate his detailed analysis, I'll refer to the post here:
 
 
 https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msg/blink-dev/pX5NbX0Xack/kmHsyMG
  JZAMJ

 snarky sarcasm
 Well, gmail doesn't support S/MIME or GPG/MIME so obviously keygen is
 useless and should be removed.
 /snarky sarcasm

  Much, if not all, of that reasoning applies to gecko as well.
  Furthermore, it would be a considerable architectural improvement if
  gecko were to remove these features (particularly with respect to e10s).
  Additionally, if they were removed from blink, the compatibility impact
  of removing them from gecko would be lessened.
 
  I therefore propose we follow suit and begin the process of deprecating
  and removing these features. The intention of this post is to begin a
  discussion to determine the feasibility of doing so.

 because pushing people to use Internet Explorer^W^W Spartan^W Edge in
 enterprise networks is a good plan to continue loosing market share for
 Mozilla products! /s

 lack of easy, cross-application certificate deployment is the _reason_ for
 low
 rates of deployment of client certificates, but where they are deployed,
 they
 are _critical_


keygen doesn't help you with cross-application deployment.  After all, IE
doesn't support it.



 you really suggest I should tell regular people to copy paste CSR's, keep
 safe
 their private keys and be able to pair keys to certs when even programmers
 and
 system administrators have problems with current certificate deployments?
 (user certs vs web server certs)


The point has been made a couple of times that you can pretty effectively
polyfill keygen with either WebCrypto or JS crypto libraries.  You can do
the whole key generation and enrollment process that way, and the only
manual step is to download the cert and import it into the browser.  Do it
with JS, and you can support far more browsers than keygen supports today.

--Richard


 suggesting removal of such a feature because is not often used is like
 suggesting removal of mains valve because it is not used often

 And I say it as a former sysadmin, not Red Hat employee.
 --
 Regards,
 Hubert Kario


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Re: XULRunner future and ownership

2015-07-30 Thread Eric Shepherd
 reverendli...@gmail.com mailto:reverendli...@gmail.com
 July 30, 2015 at 10:17 AM

 I'll volunteer to help out with documentation.
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 Benjamin Smedberg mailto:benja...@smedbergs.us
 July 29, 2015 at 2:30 PM
 The Mozilla project no longer sees XULRunner as a priority project.
 It's not core to advancing the open web or any of our current or
 planned products.

 As Ben Hearsum noted a couple weeks ago, we are turning off automated
 XULRunner builds and so XULRunner will probably quickly cease to work.
 In order to keep XULRunner in the tree, we need an owner who wants to
 keep it building and running properly. Currently, I am the nominal
 owner of the XULRunner code, but I have no desire to do this work or
 even really to review the necessary patches. I am looking to see
 whether there is an alternate owner who is interested in the task of
 keeping XULRunner building and running properly and reviewing patches
 to XULRuner-specific code. Please contact me if you want to nominate
 yourself or somebody else for this role.

 If I do not find a suitable owner in the next two weeks, I intend to
 remove the XULRunner code from the mozilla-central repository on
 14-August.

 --BDS

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Awesome! Hopefully you'll be able to have no serious trouble keeping up
the XULRunner docs. Please do have a look at our content and style
guide: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/MDN/Contribute/Content

And if you or anyone else helping with XULRunner docs needs help getting
going with editing on MDN, our starter guide is here:
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/MDN/Getting_started

Please feel free to ping me any time by email or on IRC if you'd like to
talk about it. I've been at this stuff for a long time so I may have
useful advice to offer if you need it.

-- 

Eric Shepherd
Senior Technical Writer
Mozilla https://www.mozilla.org/
Blog: http://www.bitstampede.com/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/sheppy
Check my Availability https://freebusy.io/esheph...@mozilla.com
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Re: On the future of keygen and application/x-x509-*-cert MIME handling

2015-07-30 Thread Anne van Kesteren
On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 12:28 PM, Teoli
news.fakeaddress@localhost.invalid wrote:
 Do you think it is already worth to flag it as deprecated in the MDN
 documentation as Google plans to remove it too?

Yeah, seems worth a note at least given that Microsoft doesn't ship it
either (nor plans to ever). I'll probably get the HTML Standard
updated too in due course.


-- 
https://annevankesteren.nl/
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Re: On the future of keygen and application/x-x509-*-cert MIME handling

2015-07-30 Thread Hubert Kario
On Wednesday 29 July 2015 16:35:41 David Keeler wrote:
 [cc'd to dev-security for visibility. This discussion is intended to
 happen on dev-platform; please reply to that list.]
 
 Ryan Sleevi recently announced the pre-intention to deprecate and
 eventually remove support for the keygen element and special-case
 handling of the application/x-x509-*-cert MIME types from the blink
 platform (i.e. Chrome).
 
 Rather than reiterate his detailed analysis, I'll refer to the post here:
 
 https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msg/blink-dev/pX5NbX0Xack/kmHsyMG
 JZAMJ

snarky sarcasm
Well, gmail doesn't support S/MIME or GPG/MIME so obviously keygen is 
useless and should be removed.
/snarky sarcasm

 Much, if not all, of that reasoning applies to gecko as well.
 Furthermore, it would be a considerable architectural improvement if
 gecko were to remove these features (particularly with respect to e10s).
 Additionally, if they were removed from blink, the compatibility impact
 of removing them from gecko would be lessened.
 
 I therefore propose we follow suit and begin the process of deprecating
 and removing these features. The intention of this post is to begin a
 discussion to determine the feasibility of doing so.

because pushing people to use Internet Explorer^W^W Spartan^W Edge in 
enterprise networks is a good plan to continue loosing market share for 
Mozilla products! /s

lack of easy, cross-application certificate deployment is the _reason_ for low 
rates of deployment of client certificates, but where they are deployed, they 
are _critical_

you really suggest I should tell regular people to copy paste CSR's, keep safe 
their private keys and be able to pair keys to certs when even programmers and 
system administrators have problems with current certificate deployments? 
(user certs vs web server certs)

suggesting removal of such a feature because is not often used is like 
suggesting removal of mains valve because it is not used often

And I say it as a former sysadmin, not Red Hat employee.
-- 
Regards,
Hubert Kario



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Re: On the future of keygen and application/x-x509-*-cert MIME handling

2015-07-30 Thread Teoli

On 30/07/2015 08:58, Anne van Kesteren wrote:

On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 1:35 AM, David Keeler dkee...@mozilla.com wrote:

I therefore propose we follow suit and begin the process of deprecating
and removing these features. The intention of this post is to begin a
discussion to determine the feasibility of doing so.


Deprecating and adding counters seems meaningful. It's not supported
across all browsers and it seems unlikely to ever be successful. If we
can make that clear to more folks by console warnings and some
outreach that seems like a good thing to do for the web.

Safari still supporting it is somewhat worrisome. We're in the process
of implementing and standardizing many -webkit- features due to
Safari's dominance on mobile.


Do you think it is already worth to flag it as deprecated in the MDN 
documentation as Google plans to remove it too?


Or should we wait until we add a message in the console when met (I 
guess that is what will happen). [In that case don't forget the 
dev-doc-need on that bug ;-) ]


--
Jean-Yves

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Re: layers.async-pan-zoom.enabled amazing performance increase

2015-07-30 Thread webkoros
On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 11:13:57 AM UTC+2, webk...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi,
 i enabled layers.async-pan-zoom.enabled in firefox on Mac OSX Yosemite, and 
 noticed dramatic performance increase.
 
 Problem it this introduced some bugs, like disabling scrolling completely on 
 some pages, such as a google search page.
 
 Is this the proper place to report such bugs ?
 I'd like to contribute to this,  because the performance increase is such 
 great.

Note: I was referring to scrolling smoothness performance increase.
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Re: layers.async-pan-zoom.enabled amazing performance increase

2015-07-30 Thread Robert O'Callahan
On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 9:13 PM, webko...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi,
 i enabled layers.async-pan-zoom.enabled in firefox on Mac OSX Yosemite,
 and noticed dramatic performance increase.


Great!


 Problem it this introduced some bugs, like disabling scrolling completely
 on some pages, such as a google search page.

 Is this the proper place to report such bugs ?


Please file bugs in Bugzilla!
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Core
in the Panning and Zooming component.

Thanks!
Rob
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layers.async-pan-zoom.enabled amazing performance increase

2015-07-30 Thread webkoros
Hi,
i enabled layers.async-pan-zoom.enabled in firefox on Mac OSX Yosemite, and 
noticed dramatic performance increase.

Problem it this introduced some bugs, like disabling scrolling completely on 
some pages, such as a google search page.

Is this the proper place to report such bugs ?
I'd like to contribute to this,  because the performance increase is such great.
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