Re: /etc/profile.d/lang.sh -- still needed?

[Kevin Fenzi]

On 06/07/2018 06:50 AM, Jan Pokorný wrote:
> On 14/05/18 17:19 +0200, David Kaspar [Dee'Kej] wrote:
>> does anybody know if the files /etc/profile.d/lang.{csh,sh}
>> are still used these days, and what for?
>> Do we still need them in Fedora?
>> Should they be installed by default these days?
>>
>> Any info is appreciated! :)
> 
> Frankly, had no idea about that file but apparently it's needed (or
> something to that effect) so as to have non-ascii characters rendered
> correctly in the terminal-within-WM settings (sway + urxvt256c-ml).
> I am not sure what the cause was, could be just missing
> LANG=en_US.UTF-8 in the environment -- no idea what's the
> intended authoritative "automagic" source for that otherwise.
> Or does it mean one shouldn't trust the distribution for
> this common convenience anymore?
> 
> Please be more considerate even to Rawhide package consumers next time
> around and coordinate file migrations between packages properly.
> I can see that these files were moved to setup package, but alas,
> that hasn't been rebuilt yet.  Perhaps versioned dependency or even
> path-based one would be justified in this case to prevent unexpected
> regressions.

setup was rebuilt... but I untagged it from f29 due to:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1585321

(new initscripts conflicted with chkconfig, then when I untagged that
the old initscripts conflicted with setup).

I just tagged it back in.

So, please direct any ire at me, not David.
It was coordinated, just got sidetracked.

kevin



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Re: /etc/profile.d/lang.sh -- still needed?

[Jan Pokorný]

On 14/05/18 17:19 +0200, David Kaspar [Dee'Kej] wrote:
> does anybody know if the files /etc/profile.d/lang.{csh,sh}
> are still used these days, and what for?
> Do we still need them in Fedora?
> Should they be installed by default these days?
> 
> Any info is appreciated! :)

Frankly, had no idea about that file but apparently it's needed (or
something to that effect) so as to have non-ascii characters rendered
correctly in the terminal-within-WM settings (sway + urxvt256c-ml).
I am not sure what the cause was, could be just missing
LANG=en_US.UTF-8 in the environment -- no idea what's the
intended authoritative "automagic" source for that otherwise.
Or does it mean one shouldn't trust the distribution for
this common convenience anymore?

Please be more considerate even to Rawhide package consumers next time
around and coordinate file migrations between packages properly.
I can see that these files were moved to setup package, but alas,
that hasn't been rebuilt yet.  Perhaps versioned dependency or even
path-based one would be justified in this case to prevent unexpected
regressions.

-- 
Poki


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Re: /etc/profile.d/lang.sh -- still needed?

[David Kaspar [Dee'Kej]]

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM, R P Herrold  wrote:

> If you wish to 'clean out' initscripts, migrate the content
> into the relevant bash, and tcsh packages, and be done with it
>

​Yeah, you're right. Good point.​ Though I would prefer these scripts be
moved into 'setup' package instead, so they stay together for easier
maintenance, and because the functionality of lang.sh is not used just by
bash, but other shells can use it as well.​
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Re: /etc/profile.d/lang.sh -- still needed?

[David Kaspar [Dee'Kej]]

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 3:30 PM, Akira TAGOH  wrote:

> how/what does those scripts "block"?
>

​Right now, it depends on the "/usr/sbin/consoletype​", which is also part
of initscripts. I hope it will be possible to just switch it to "tty"
utility instead, so the dependency on initscripts can be completely broken.
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Re: /etc/profile.d/lang.sh -- still needed?

[R P Herrold]

On Tue, 15 May 2018, David Kaspar [Dee'Kej] wrote:

> It could at least tell us the current state of things, and maybe create a
> plan on how to fix things, so they could be eventually removed at some
> point.
> 
> In any case I would like to find a new home for these scripts, so they
> don't "block" other work on initscripts package. And if it would turned out
> we can't remove those scripts yet, at least to do some cleanup in those
> scripts if possible.

Why take the pain? What is to 'fix'? =-=- This approach is an: 
'let's break stuff, and then fix some of it, 
eventually, maybe, to the extent we identify it'

IF there were TDD ASSERT testing in place, it might be 
possible to locate some of the frammage -- but this is not 
anything like where the Fedorproject is

If you wish to 'clean out' initscripts, migrate the content 
into the relevant bash, and tcsh packages, and be done with it

-- Russ herrold
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Re: /etc/profile.d/lang.sh -- still needed?

[Akira TAGOH]

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 8:39 PM, David Kaspar [Dee'Kej]
 wrote:
> I still get the feeling like we are not totally sure these scripts are still
> needed nowadays.

We definitely need it as long as we are relying on the environment
variable to set a locale. particularly to configure locale for
non-desktop spins. we could have another things though, it's simple
enough. dunno if we really want to have complex things for that.
Or at least you should clarify issues around it if any.

>  Do you think it would be too much dangerous to test if we
> need still those files in Fedora via the System-wide Change? (I.e. do the
> change in rawhide, see if it breaks something. fallback if necessary.) It
> could at least tell us the current state of things, and maybe create a plan
> on how to fix things, so they could be eventually removed at some point.
>
> In any case I would like to find a new home for these scripts, so they don't
> "block" other work on initscripts package. And if it would turned out we
> can't remove those scripts yet, at least to do some cleanup in those scripts
> if possible.

how/what does those scripts "block"?

>
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-- 
Akira TAGOH
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Re: /etc/profile.d/lang.sh -- still needed?

[David Kaspar [Dee'Kej]]

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 9:45 AM, Akira TAGOH  wrote:

> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 12:41 AM, David Kaspar [Dee'Kej]
>  wrote:
> > My question was more meant in a sense "are those files still necessary"?
> :)
> > I expect they were created to deal with some problems with locale
> setting,
> > but from just looking into them it's hard for me to guess what the
> initial
> > purpose of them were... :)
>
> That is used to set up the user specific locale settings. is there any
> alternatives to take care of them instead of
> /etc/profile.d/lang.{sh,csh} ?
>

​No that I'm aware of​

, unfortunately.

I still get the feeling like we are not totally sure these scripts are
still needed nowadays. Do you think it would be too much dangerous to test
if we need still those files in Fedora via the System-wide Change? (I.e. do
the change in rawhide, see if it breaks something. fallback if necessary.)
It could at least tell us the current state of things, and maybe create a
plan on how to fix things, so they could be eventually removed at some
point.

In any case I would like to find a new home for these scripts, so they
don't "block" other work on initscripts package. And if it would turned out
we can't remove those scripts yet, at least to do some cleanup in those
scripts if possible.
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Re: /etc/profile.d/lang.sh -- still needed?

[Akira TAGOH]

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 12:41 AM, David Kaspar [Dee'Kej]
 wrote:
> My question was more meant in a sense "are those files still necessary"? :)
> I expect they were created to deal with some problems with locale setting,
> but from just looking into them it's hard for me to guess what the initial
> purpose of them were... :)

That is used to set up the user specific locale settings. is there any
alternatives to take care of them instead of
/etc/profile.d/lang.{sh,csh} ?

-- 
Akira TAGOH
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Re: /etc/profile.d/lang.sh -- still needed?

[Jens-Ulrik Petersen]

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 12:19 AM, David Kaspar [Dee'Kej]  wrote:

> does anybody know if the files /etc/profile.d/lang.{csh,sh} are still used
> these days, and what for?
> Do we still need them in Fedora?
>

They are needed for example to not run Asian and Middle Eastern locales on
the console, which does not support fonts for their characters.

Also for ~/.i18n though dunno if anyone still uses that - I think it is the
only way to override one's locale easily to a non-UTF-8 encoding for
example.

Do you see any problem with them?

Should they be installed by default these days?
>

Yes

-Jens
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Re: /etc/profile.d/lang.sh -- still needed?

[Stephen John Smoogen]

On 14 May 2018 at 11:41, David Kaspar [Dee'Kej]  wrote:
> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 5:27 PM, R P Herrold  wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 14 May 2018, David Kaspar [Dee'Kej] wrote:
>>
>> > does anybody know if the files /etc/profile.d/lang.{csh,sh} are still
>> > used
>> > these days, and what for?
>>
>> by their terms, they are a collection of I18N and environment
>> settings.
>
>
> My question was more meant in a sense "are those files still necessary"? :)
> I expect they were created to deal with some problems with locale setting,
> but from just looking into them it's hard for me to guess what the initial
> purpose of them were... :)
>
>>
>> > Do we still need them in Fedora?
>>
>> Are you asking if /bin/sh, and /bin/tcsh are still installed
>> or used?  I certainly install ande use each
>
>
> Let me rephrase - if those files are gone completely, will it break
> anything? Isn't the functionality of those scripts obsolete nowadays?
>
>>
>> > Should they be installed by default these days?
>>
>> One assumes the files could be moved out to 'bash' and 'tcsh'
>> packagings, if the (unstated) goal is to eliminate
>> 'initscripts' as a standalone package
>
>
> I'd like to remove them completely if possible, but I don't want to break
> anything for our users. That's why I would like to know the initial purpose
> of those files, and if they are still really needed nowadays... :)
>

A quick review of the files says that all kinds of user related things
will probably "break" from other scripts expecting specific collation
to reports on 'XYZ application is so slow' because it is not
getting language setup correctly. [I believe that some of the fixes in
there were from when UTF-8 was coming into play and startup of the
system got slow because every startup script was parsing things in 8+
bit wide when they didn't need to.. this filtered down to fixing speed
issues for users.]

I guess the question is more like: Is this an initscripts problem or
some other part of the OS. If initscripts plans to remove it, I would
definitely expect a systems change because it is going to silently
affect a lot of things which have been getting a 'free' ride from that
environment setup over the years. Some of the problems are probably
fixed, but I expect others are just expecting those .sh to do their
job.





-- 
Stephen J Smoogen.
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Re: /etc/profile.d/lang.sh -- still needed?

[David Kaspar [Dee'Kej]]

On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 5:27 PM, R P Herrold  wrote:

> On Mon, 14 May 2018, David Kaspar [Dee'Kej] wrote:
>
> > does anybody know if the files /etc/profile.d/lang.{csh,sh} are still
> used
> > these days, and what for?
>
> by their terms, they are a collection of I18N and environment
> settings.
>

​My question was more meant in a sense "are those files still necessary"?
:) I expect they were created to deal with some problems with locale
setting, but from just looking into them it's hard for me to guess what the
initial purpose of them were... :)


> > Do we still need them in Fedora?
>
> Are you asking if /bin/sh, and /bin/tcsh are still installed
> or used?  I certainly install ande use each
>

​Let me rephrase - if those files are gone completely, will it break
anything? Isn't the functionality of those scripts obsolete nowadays?​


> > Should they be installed by default these days?
>
> One assumes the files could be moved out to 'bash' and 'tcsh'
> packagings, if the (unstated) goal is to eliminate
> 'initscripts' as a standalone package
>

​I'd like to remove them completely if possible, but I don't want to break
anything for our users.​ That's why I would like to know the initial
purpose of those files, and if they are still really needed nowadays... :)
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/etc/profile.d/lang.sh -- still needed?

[R P Herrold]

On Mon, 14 May 2018, David Kaspar [Dee'Kej] wrote:

> does anybody know if the files /etc/profile.d/lang.{csh,sh} are still used
> these days, and what for?

by their terms, they are a collection of I18N and environment 
settings.  

> Do we still need them in Fedora?

Are you asking if /bin/sh, and /bin/tcsh are still installed 
or used?  I certainly install ande use each

> Should they be installed by default these days?

One assumes the files could be moved out to 'bash' and 'tcsh' 
packagings, if the (unstated) goal is to eliminate 
'initscripts' as a standalone package

-- Russ herrold
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/etc/profile.d/lang.sh -- still needed?

[David Kaspar [Dee'Kej]]

Hello people,

does anybody know if the files /etc/profile.d/lang.{csh,sh} are still used
these days, and what for?
Do we still need them in Fedora?
Should they be installed by default these days?

Any info is appreciated! :)

David Kaspar [Dee'Kej]
*Associate Software Engineer*
*Brno, Czech Republic*

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