Re: Other download options
Am 11.12.2014 um 05:32 schrieb Felix Miata: [ re: https://getfedora.org/ ] Reindl Harald composed on 2014-12-11 01:06 (UTC+0100): Felix Miata composed: Actions speak louder than words. The need to zoom 3X-6X to reach legible a legible state belies polished, easy to use. no need to zoom anything and as said my eyes are really not good Your image hasn't presented anything useful, because you offered insufficient context to know what it is that you see when you look at what you captured. All we know is my eyes are not really good, whatever that means. i explained what that means, a cornea implanted from a previously died person on both eyes as well as a new lense and finally able to see only 60-70% or a normal human on the left and 90% on the right eye that means two different pictures composed by the brain to one and so you can imagine that typically if i can read things without problems they are just fine We have no idea what your screen size is, what your resolution is, or what the distance between eyes and screen is. IOW, the physical size presented to you is utterly absent. 1920x1080, 23, 96dpi and the font-size of that page is similar to 98% of websites i face and we create - you should really ask yourself to consult a doctor and check your eyes and that is by far meant insulting (see above paragraph!) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Other download options
Hi Alexander. On Thu, 2014-12-11 at 08:21 +0200, Alexander Ploumistos wrote: Sorry to cut in, but whom can I contact about localization issues with the getfedora.org website? Please contact the websites team via their mailing list or trac instance: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/websites https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-websites/ -- Thanks, Regards, Ankur Sinha FranciscoD http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Ankursinha signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: CSS on getfedora.org (was: Other download options)
Reindl Harald composed on 2014-12-11 11:44 (UTC+0100):
Felix Miata composed:
[ re: https://getfedora.org/ ]
Reindl Harald composed on 2014-12-11 01:06 (UTC+0100):
Felix Miata composed:
Actions speak louder than words. The need to zoom 3X-6X to reach legible a
legible state belies polished, easy to use.
no need to zoom anything and as said my eyes are really not good
Your image hasn't presented anything useful, because you offered insufficient
context to know what it is that you see when you look at what you captured.
All we know is my eyes are not really good, whatever that means.
i explained what that means, a cornea implanted from a previously died
person on both eyes as well as a new lense and finally able to see only
60-70% or a normal human on the left and 90% on the right eye
that means two different pictures composed by the brain to one and so
you can imagine that typically if i can read things without problems
they are just fine
So far, you have only explained your visual condition, nothing about what is
presented to your eyes.
We have no idea what your screen size is, what your resolution is,
or what the distance between eyes and screen is. IOW, the physical
size presented to you is utterly absent.
1920x1080, 23, 96dpi and the font-size of that page is similar to 98%
of websites i face and we create
Therein lie multiple problems. A 23 1920x1080 screen is indeed 95.8 DPI.
Xorg, unless overridden, same as Windows and Mac, presumes a 96 DPI screen.
By default, all popular Linux DEs obey the Xorg configured DPI. In all such
environments, the 13px CSS size used for the items in the footer columns
does in fact compute to a physical size of 9.75pt.
Problem 1: For today's Internet, where yesteryear's CRTs are mostly memories,
and laptops and smaller internet access devices abound, selling in far larger
numbers than desktop computers, 96DPI is a low density screen. Low density
means objects of any given nominal size are rendered large in comparison to
screens of medium or high density. What is adequate in size on a low density
screen morphs into inadequacy as actual screen density increases. Without the
user environment applying any compensation, that 13px/9.75pt text on a 96DPI
screen becomes 13px/7.8pt on a 120DPI screen, 13px/6.5pt on a 144DPI screen,
13px/5.2pt on a 180DPI screen, and so forth. So clearly from a usability
perspective, since it exhibits zero adaptation to the user environment, the
px unit makes a poor choice for sizing web objects that need to be legible.
Problem 2: Just because everybody else does something does not justify
everyone else doing the same. Copying what everybody else does only makes
more of the same, not wisdom. Computers are tools with the capability to do
things automatically, to make things easier. Sizing web content in CSS px
units impedes a computer's ability to do that. Better sizing options exist
and are therefore recommended.[1]
Problem 3: Sizing using px units completely disregards user needs and
preferences. Users' browser defaults are presumptively optimal. Users who
find the as shipped defaults inappropriate are free to adjust them. One word
describing that process is called personalizing. Disregarding what users find
optimal is rude, and for the same reason as problem 2 above, just as
unnecessary.
- you should really ask yourself to consult a doctor and check your eyes
WRT viewing a computer display, there is nothing wrong with my eyes that
prescription lenses don't correct. The problem is with web designs that
override user settings, either by disregarding them entirely (sizing in px),
or assuming them inappropriate (base sizing to other than browser default,
e.g. body {font-size: 80%} or p {font-size: .8rem}). 100% is the
presumptively optimal base size for everyone. It's personalizable precisely
so those who don't like the size it was shipped with can optimize it, thus
allowing the computer to automatically compute, making everything nice size
automatically.
and that is by far meant insulting (see above paragraph!)
You have me totally lost by that comment.
[1] e.g. http://www.w3.org/2003/07/30-font-size
http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20140916/C28
--
The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
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Re: Other download options
On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:37:54 +0100, Michael Catanzaro wrote: On Wed, 2014-12-10 at 09:52 -0700, Jerry James wrote: Workstation isn't suitable; they aren't developers (yet). Server and Cloud are definitely right out. I don't want a Live CD; I want to actually install. (In the past, installing from a Live CD left one with different defaults than an install from DVD, so I've learned to avoid the Live CD. Perhaps that reflex is now wrong.) Yes, this has always been a problem, one that has been solved by removing everything except the live CD. :p Hmm, just checked, your not kidding! My usual way for updating/installing was to download the netinst and DVD install images. Then with netinst, install using the DVD image over NFS. I guess that's now out the window? What would be the nearest equivalent thing? Cheers, Andrew -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Other download options
On 12/11/2014 04:45 PM, Andrew Clayton wrote: My usual way for updating/installing was to download the netinst and DVD install images. Then with netinst, install using the DVD image over NFS. I guess that's now out the window? What would be the nearest equivalent thing? You can use the server netinst iso the same as a generic netinst. But it looks like you'll have to get the packages over the network. There's no iso with packages on it. So either mirror the packages you need or download them during install. I have a proxy setup, so that download only happens once (per arch). -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Other download options
On Thu, 11 Dec 2014 17:46:18 -0800, Samuel Sieb wrote: You can use the server netinst iso the same as a generic netinst. But it looks like you'll have to get the packages over the network. There's no iso with packages on it. So either mirror the packages you need or download them during install. I have a proxy setup, so that download only happens once (per arch). OK, thanks. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Other download options
Hi everyone, I've noticed that other download options besides LIVE images are now gone from the website. Can you please explain how should (normal) user find non-LIVE image links there? I know this has been (probably intentionally) obfuscated before. Please put it back, even as obfuscated as it used to be. Or wanting to have a choice is too much? thx - maros -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Other download options
Am 10.12.2014 um 13:43 schrieb Maros Zatko: Hi everyone, I've noticed that other download options besides LIVE images are now gone from the website. Can you please explain how should (normal) user find non-LIVE image links there? I know this has been (probably intentionally) obfuscated before. Please put it back, even as obfuscated as it used to be. Or wanting to have a choice is too much? why not just scroll down? there is a big Download list in the footer Get Fedora Workstation Get Fedora Server Get Fedora Cloud Fedora Spins Torrent Downloads signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Other download options
Speaking of F21 downloads, how is that the fedoraproject.org redirects to getfedora.org? Is this something permanent? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Other download options
From: Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 1:54:29 PM Subject: Re: Other download options Am 10.12.2014 um 13:43 schrieb Maros Zatko: Hi everyone, I've noticed that other download options besides LIVE images are now gone from the website. Can you please explain how should (normal) user find non-LIVE image links there? I know this has been (probably intentionally) obfuscated before. Please put it back, even as obfuscated as it used to be. Or wanting to have a choice is too much? why not just scroll down? there is a big Download list in the footer Get Fedora Workstation Get Fedora Server Get Fedora Cloud Fedora Spins Torrent Downloads Yes, there is netinstall in the Server variant, I suppose it's not the same as Workstation one and (as a user) I'm getting pretty confused now :) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Other download options
Am 10.12.2014 um 14:27 schrieb Maros Zatko: From: Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net Am 10.12.2014 um 13:43 schrieb Maros Zatko: Hi everyone, I've noticed that other download options besides LIVE images are now gone from the website. Can you please explain how should (normal) user find non-LIVE image links there? I know this has been (probably intentionally) obfuscated before. Please put it back, even as obfuscated as it used to be. Or wanting to have a choice is too much? why not just scroll down? there is a big Download list in the footer Get Fedora Workstation Get Fedora Server Get Fedora Cloud Fedora Spins Torrent Downloads Yes, there is netinstall in the Server variant, I suppose it's not the same as Workstation one and (as a user) I'm getting pretty confused now :) http://torrents.fedoraproject.org/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Other download options
From: Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 2:29:09 PM Subject: Re: Other download options Am 10.12.2014 um 14:27 schrieb Maros Zatko: From: Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net Am 10.12.2014 um 13:43 schrieb Maros Zatko: Hi everyone, I've noticed that other download options besides LIVE images are now gone from the website. Can you please explain how should (normal) user find non-LIVE image links there? I know this has been (probably intentionally) obfuscated before. Please put it back, even as obfuscated as it used to be. Or wanting to have a choice is too much? why not just scroll down? there is a big Download list in the footer Get Fedora Workstation Get Fedora Server Get Fedora Cloud Fedora Spins Torrent Downloads Yes, there is netinstall in the Server variant, I suppose it's not the same as Workstation one and (as a user) I'm getting pretty confused now :) http://torrents.fedoraproject.org/ Thanks!!! As a joke, this is getting better and better since there is no torrent for netinstall at all. Och yes, and it's not even Friday, yet! :D -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Other download options
On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 2:27 PM, Maros Zatko mza...@redhat.com wrote: From: Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 1:54:29 PM Subject: Re: Other download options Am 10.12.2014 um 13:43 schrieb Maros Zatko: Hi everyone, I've noticed that other download options besides LIVE images are now gone from the website. Can you please explain how should (normal) user find non-LIVE image links there? I know this has been (probably intentionally) obfuscated before. Please put it back, even as obfuscated as it used to be. Or wanting to have a choice is too much? why not just scroll down? there is a big Download list in the footer Get Fedora Workstation Get Fedora Server Get Fedora Cloud Fedora Spins Torrent Downloads Yes, there is netinstall in the Server variant, I suppose it's not the same as Workstation [...] The name is misleading ... the netinstall can install anything like in the old days. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Other download options
Dne 10.12.2014 v 14:38 Maros Zatko napsal(a): From: Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 2:29:09 PM Subject: Re: Other download options Am 10.12.2014 um 14:27 schrieb Maros Zatko: From: Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net Am 10.12.2014 um 13:43 schrieb Maros Zatko: Hi everyone, I've noticed that other download options besides LIVE images are now gone from the website. Can you please explain how should (normal) user find non-LIVE image links there? I know this has been (probably intentionally) obfuscated before. Please put it back, even as obfuscated as it used to be. Or wanting to have a choice is too much? why not just scroll down? there is a big Download list in the footer Get Fedora Workstation Get Fedora Server Get Fedora Cloud Fedora Spins Torrent Downloads Yes, there is netinstall in the Server variant, I suppose it's not the same as Workstation one and (as a user) I'm getting pretty confused now :) http://torrents.fedoraproject.org/ Thanks!!! As a joke, this is getting better and better since there is no torrent for netinstall at all. Och yes, and it's not even Friday, yet! :D Cloud and Server have netinst, Workstation does not have: http://download.fedoraproject.org/pub/fedora/linux/releases/21/ Vít -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Other download options
On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 6:27 AM, Maros Zatko mza...@redhat.com wrote: Yes, there is netinstall in the Server variant, I suppose it's not the same as Workstation one and (as a user) I'm getting pretty confused now :) I'm getting kind of confused myself. I want to grab an image to throw onto an old machine for my kids to use. I just want a desktop with a web browser and a mail client. Workstation isn't suitable; they aren't developers (yet). Server and Cloud are definitely right out. I don't want a Live CD; I want to actually install. (In the past, installing from a Live CD left one with different defaults than an install from DVD, so I've learned to avoid the Live CD. Perhaps that reflex is now wrong.) I guess I could go with one of the spins, but I don't see a GNOME spin anywhere. Is there really no DVD image for a generic GNOME desktop install? Maybe I should make Kevin happy and get the KDE spin. :-) Actually, the KDE, Xfce, LXDE, and Mate spins all seem likely to fit my use case, but I'm very surprised that there isn't a GNOME equivalent. Or is there? If there is, I can't tell from the information on getfedora.org. What are we recommending for people who want to install a generic access the Internet type of environment for non-techies? None of the products obviously address that audience. -- Jerry James http://www.jamezone.org/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Other download options
On Wed, 2014-12-10 at 09:52 -0700, Jerry James wrote: Workstation isn't suitable; they aren't developers (yet). Server and Cloud are definitely right out. I don't want a Live CD; I want to actually install. (In the past, installing from a Live CD left one with different defaults than an install from DVD, so I've learned to avoid the Live CD. Perhaps that reflex is now wrong.) Yes, this has always been a problem, one that has been solved by removing everything except the live CD. :p I guess I could go with one of the spins, but I don't see a GNOME spin anywhere. Is there really no DVD image for a generic GNOME desktop install? This would be redundant with Fedora Workstation. Workstation is what you want to download. We want it to be great for developers, but it's not for developers only: your confusion indicates that we have not been successful at marketing it as such. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Other download options
On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 09:52:05 -0700 Jerry James loganje...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 6:27 AM, Maros Zatko mza...@redhat.com wrote: Yes, there is netinstall in the Server variant, I suppose it's not the same as Workstation one and (as a user) I'm getting pretty confused now :) I'm getting kind of confused myself. I want to grab an image to throw onto an old machine for my kids to use. I just want a desktop with a web browser and a mail client. Workstation isn't suitable; they aren't developers (yet). Workstation is not only for developers. Developers are someone the workstation working group is targeting, but you don't have to be a developer. Many of the same things developers want/need are things your kids might want/need as well. Server and Cloud are definitely right out. I don't want a Live CD; I want to actually install. (In the past, installing from a Live CD left one with different defaults than an install from DVD, so I've learned to avoid the Live CD. Perhaps that reflex is now wrong.) I'd suggest so. The installer is the same in both, there's some details that are different, but the live media can install just fine. I guess I could go with one of the spins, but I don't see a GNOME spin anywhere. Is there really no DVD image for a generic GNOME desktop install? Maybe I should make Kevin happy and get the KDE spin. :-) You could get any one of the spins and just install gnome-desktop from there. Or workstation. Or KDE or anything in the package collection. Actually, the KDE, Xfce, LXDE, and Mate spins all seem likely to fit my use case, but I'm very surprised that there isn't a GNOME equivalent. Or is there? If there is, I can't tell from the information on getfedora.org. What are we recommending for people who want to install a generic access the Internet type of environment for non-techies? None of the products obviously address that audience. The workstation media should work fine for that... it seems the marketing around it isn't conveying that well. For your case, I'd just install (using whatever) and install all the desktops and try them out and see which one meets your needs best. kevin pgpocX7B84Dvt.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Other download options
On 10 Dec 2014, at 11:52, Jerry James wrote: On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 6:27 AM, Maros Zatko mza...@redhat.com wrote: Yes, there is netinstall in the Server variant, I suppose it's not the same as Workstation one and (as a user) I'm getting pretty confused now :) I'm getting kind of confused myself. I want to grab an image to throw onto an old machine for my kids to use. I just want a desktop with a web browser and a mail client. Workstation isn't suitable; they aren't developers (yet). Server and Cloud are definitely right out. I don't want a Live CD; I want to actually install. (In the past, installing from a Live CD left one with different defaults than an install from DVD, so I've learned to avoid the Live CD. Perhaps that reflex is now wrong.) I guess I could go with one of the spins, but I don't see a GNOME spin anywhere. Is there really no DVD image for a generic GNOME desktop install? Maybe I should make Kevin happy and get the KDE spin. :-) Actually, the KDE, Xfce, LXDE, and Mate spins all seem likely to fit my use case, but I'm very surprised that there isn't a GNOME equivalent. Or is there? If there is, I can't tell from the information on getfedora.org. What are we recommending for people who want to install a generic access the Internet type of environment for non-techies? None of the products obviously address that audience. This issue has been addressed tangentially in the marathon Workstation defaults to wide-open firewall thread. As best I can tell from Matthew Miller's responses there, Fedora has abandoned that portion of its previous user base that was using Fedora as a general, secure by default, Gnome desktop OS. Those users are no longer supported by any Fedora product. I also am trying to figure out how I can use Fedora going forward to support general desktop requirements for SMB office workers, creative types and others who have heretofore been using Fedora as a general, secure by default, Gnome desktop OS. The only ideas I have come up with so far are: • Install Fedora 20, update it, then fedup to nonproduct variant of Fedora 21; or • Use the server net install to install a minimal system as a nonproduct variant of Fedora 21, and then install a long list of packages needed to convert it into a general desktop OS. I have not yet tested and don't know how practical either of those ideas is. My users are accustomed to Gnome, so I prefer not to change to one of the alternative desktop environment spins if there is an easy way forward with Gnome. -- Mike Pinkerton -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Other download options
On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 12:47 PM, Mike Pinkerton pseli...@mindspring.com wrote: I also am trying to figure out how I can use Fedora going forward to support general desktop requirements for SMB office workers, creative types and others who have heretofore been using Fedora as a general, secure by default, Gnome desktop OS. The only ideas I have come up with so far are: Why not the Workstation product with a firewall configuration more to your liking? Is there something besides the firewall that causes Fedora 21 Workstation to not meet your needs? Thanks, BC -- Ben Cotton -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Other download options
On 10 Dec 2014, at 12:52, Ben Cotton wrote: On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 12:47 PM, Mike Pinkerton pseli...@mindspring.com wrote: I also am trying to figure out how I can use Fedora going forward to support general desktop requirements for SMB office workers, creative types and others who have heretofore been using Fedora as a general, secure by default, Gnome desktop OS. The only ideas I have come up with so far are: Why not the Workstation product with a firewall configuration more to your liking? Is there something besides the firewall that causes Fedora 21 Workstation to not meet your needs? Primarily the uncertainty of what changes the Workstation WG has made, coupled with Matthew Miller's comments that: Right now, 'desktop system with a security focus for new users' isn't a key part of that effort. ... So, if you're not in the target of that focus, where do you look? Well, you can certainly pick one of our other desktop spins ... None of those spins is Gnome-based. For office workers, creative types and similar, there is always a mixture of new and old users, a mixture of savvy and not, and always a few folks who, unless prevented, would do incredibly stupid things that put your whole network at risk. Security is always a prime concern. I would not have known about the firewall issue if Kevin Kofler had not kindly flagged it to this list. If the Workstation WG is willing to implement such a basic change with little notice -- and the two sentences in the Release Notes don't give adequate notice that Fedora has switched from a secure by default to an insecure by default firewall configuration -- then I can't trust the Workstation product until I can audit all of its configurations to determine where and how they differ from those I can support for my users. I don't have the time to do that. I also don't know whether Workstation updates will pull in other similarly bad ideas in the future, and whether I would have to re- audit all of the configuration after each update. -- Mike -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Other download options
On Wed, 2014-12-10 at 13:19 -0500, Mike Pinkerton wrote: Primarily the uncertainty of what changes the Workstation WG has made, coupled with Matthew Miller's comments that: Right now, 'desktop system with a security focus for new users' isn't a key part of that effort. ... So, if you're not in the target of that focus, where do you look? Well, you can certainly pick one of our other desktop spins ... None of those spins is Gnome-based. Well frankly, I'm going to take a rare opportunity to disagree with Matthew: building a desktop system with a security focus for new users is *exactly* what we're trying to do. I also do not agree that a restrictive firewall configuration would make accomplish this goal. That discussion is best left to the thread on devel@ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Other download options
On Dec 10, 2014 10:47 AM, Mike Pinkerton pseli...@mindspring.com wrote: On 10 Dec 2014, at 11:52, Jerry James wrote: On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 6:27 AM, Maros Zatko mza...@redhat.com wrote: Yes, there is netinstall in the Server variant, I suppose it's not the same as Workstation one and (as a user) I'm getting pretty confused now :) I'm getting kind of confused myself. I want to grab an image to throw onto an old machine for my kids to use. I just want a desktop with a web browser and a mail client. Workstation isn't suitable; they aren't developers (yet). Server and Cloud are definitely right out. I don't want a Live CD; I want to actually install. (In the past, installing from a Live CD left one with different defaults than an install from DVD, so I've learned to avoid the Live CD. Perhaps that reflex is now wrong.) I guess I could go with one of the spins, but I don't see a GNOME spin anywhere. Is there really no DVD image for a generic GNOME desktop install? Maybe I should make Kevin happy and get the KDE spin. :-) Actually, the KDE, Xfce, LXDE, and Mate spins all seem likely to fit my use case, but I'm very surprised that there isn't a GNOME equivalent. Or is there? If there is, I can't tell from the information on getfedora.org. What are we recommending for people who want to install a generic access the Internet type of environment for non-techies? None of the products obviously address that audience. This issue has been addressed tangentially in the marathon Workstation defaults to wide-open firewall thread. As best I can tell from Matthew Miller's responses there, Fedora has abandoned that portion of its previous user base that was using Fedora as a general, secure by default, Gnome desktop OS. Those users are no longer supported by any Fedora product. I also am trying to figure out how I can use Fedora going forward to support general desktop requirements for SMB office workers, creative types and others who have heretofore been using Fedora as a general, secure by default, Gnome desktop OS. The only ideas I have come up with so far are: • Install Fedora 20, update it, then fedup to nonproduct variant of Fedora 21; or • Use the server net install to install a minimal system as a nonproduct variant of Fedora 21, and then install a long list of packages needed to convert it into a general desktop OS. I have not yet tested and don't know how practical either of those ideas is. My users are accustomed to Gnome, so I prefer not to change to one of the alternative desktop environment spins if there is an easy way forward with Gnome. -- Mike Pinkerton I have a lot of tools. Mechanics tools, woodworking tools, electronics tools, plumbing tools, whatever. I don't drive over to the nearest hardware store and buy whatever they have on the shelf that fits the general description of saw or torque wrench or multimeter. I do some research, find quality products, and usually end up with something targeted towards professionals or contractors or whatever. I'm not going to compromise my standards because I encounter a product that isn't marketed for occasional semi-skilled use. Friends and family (at least, those that don't think the same way) end up borrowing my tools, even when they already have a saw or nailer or whatever. The tools they end up with just aren't as good. Often, their grabbed-off-the-shelf tools break more easily and sooner, while mine operate reliably through hard use. The experience is just more pleasant, the user more productive, the quality of the end product noticeably better. An OS is also a tool. You don't have to be a professional developer to enjoy the benefits of a product targeted for professional developers. You don't have to choose your experience based on the target audience of some marketing copy. If the product works for you, and works well, use it. (Obligatory aside - if you are a professional developer, and you prefer an alternative DE, Fedora works for you too :) --Pete -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Other download options
On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 12:47:20PM -0500, Mike Pinkerton wrote: As best I can tell from Matthew Miller's responses there, Fedora has abandoned that portion of its previous user base that was using Fedora as a general, secure by default, Gnome desktop OS. That's _very much_ not what I said. Those users are no longer supported by any Fedora product. Fedora has never had anything like the new Cloud/Server/Workstation. Existing users are supported in the same way they always have been. Installing Workstation and applying • Install Fedora 20, update it, then fedup to nonproduct variant of Fedora 21; or I don't really understand the logic here. Why would you go that route? This seems like a very catastrophic overreaction. Have you tried Fedora 21 Workstation? Installing Workstation and applying whatever changes you prefer to rearch your target seems like the easiest path. But... • Use the server net install to install a minimal system as a nonproduct variant of Fedora 21, and then install a long list of packages needed to convert it into a general desktop OS. ... this is also a good approach. It's definitely what I've always done in creating systems for people I needed to support. But long list seems to again be catastrophizing the situation. We have packages grouped in comps and in install environments so it's really not all that complicated. My users are accustomed to Gnome, so I prefer not to change to one of the alternative desktop environment spins if there is an easy way forward with Gnome. If you, or any other collaborators, would like to build a GNOME-based spin targeting a different use case, not only is there nothing stopping you, it's encouraged. Take a look here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Spins_Process#Creating_a_Spin. It's not that difficult (basically, the same as the above in kickstart form, plus the commitment to keep it up to date and do minimal testing). -- Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Other download options
On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 1:19 PM, Mike Pinkerton pseli...@mindspring.com wrote: Primarily the uncertainty of what changes the Workstation WG has made, coupled with Matthew Miller's comments that: deletia I also don't know whether Workstation updates will pull in other similarly bad ideas in the future, and whether I would have to re-audit all of the configuration after each update. I understand the frustration. This case has pointed out some areas where the communications process could be improved (though I expect the number of subscribers to the workstation mailing list has gone up dramatically in the last few days). Your reasons for avoiding using Workstation don't seem that new, though. Changes have always been able to pass under the radar, either because of process failure, or the simple fact of missing the email thread. Going forward, I'd hope the WGs will use this as an example to better communicate WG-specific changes, but relying on out-of-the-box configuration to match your desired state doesn't seem sustainable. Thanks, BC -- Ben Cotton -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Other download options
Reindl Harald composed on 2014-12-10 13:54 (UTC+0100): Maros Zatko composed: I've noticed that other download options besides LIVE images are now gone from the website. Can you please explain how should (normal) user find non-LIVE image links there? I know this has been (probably intentionally) obfuscated before. Please put it back, even as obfuscated as it used to be. Or wanting to have a choice is too much? why not just scroll down? there is a big Download list in the footer Nothing in that footer, except the amount of whitespace, is big. The caps heading the footer columns are smaller than default size, which masked by gray on gray, are barely big enough to even find. Get Fedora Workstation Get Fedora Server Get Fedora Cloud Fedora Spins Are there really people not already familiar with Fedora who would have any clue what spin means in the context used? Torrent Downloads I don't know about others who think more logically than artistically, but when I'm looking for *important* information, like how to actually acquire that which the page is about, I don't look for or expect to find it hiding in gray on gray mousetype[1] in the /same/ (gray) block at the bottom of a page where normal people expect to find unimportant copyright legalese. Without having assimilated its preceding description of workstation, or already being familiar with Fedora, I can perceive nothing in that list that states or implies general purpose or generic or basic or play. Actions speak louder than words. The need to zoom 3X-6X to reach legible a legible state belies polished, easy to use. [1] here, ~42.25% the size of text that would likely be optimal only if black on white, closer to 20% of optimal size with the low contrast level actually used -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Other download options
Michael Catanzaro composed on 2014-12-10 18:37 (UTC+0100): On Wed, 2014-12-10 at 09:52 -0700, Jerry James wrote: I guess I could go with one of the spins, but I don't see a GNOME spin anywhere. Is there really no DVD image for a generic GNOME desktop install? This would be redundant with Fedora Workstation. Workstation is what you want to download. We want it to be great for developers, but it's not for developers only: your confusion indicates that we have not been successful at marketing it as such. +1 -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Other download options
Am 11.12.2014 um 00:58 schrieb Felix Miata: Reindl Harald composed on 2014-12-10 13:54 (UTC+0100): Maros Zatko composed: I've noticed that other download options besides LIVE images are now gone from the website. Can you please explain how should (normal) user find non-LIVE image links there? I know this has been (probably intentionally) obfuscated before. Please put it back, even as obfuscated as it used to be. Or wanting to have a choice is too much? why not just scroll down? there is a big Download list in the footer Nothing in that footer, except the amount of whitespace, is big. The caps heading the footer columns are smaller than default size, which masked by gray on gray, are barely big enough to even find. the DOWNLOADS is big, see screenshot frankly i have a cornea implant and a plastic lens on both eyes Get Fedora Workstation Get Fedora Server Get Fedora Cloud Fedora Spins Are there really people not already familiar with Fedora who would have any clue what spin means in the context used? Torrent Downloads I don't know about others who think more logically than artistically, but when I'm looking for *important* information, like how to actually acquire that which the page is about, I don't look for or expect to find it hiding in gray on gray mousetype[1] in the /same/ (gray) block at the bottom of a page where normal people expect to find unimportant copyright legalese. well, one can also click on Workstation - Download now Without having assimilated its preceding description of workstation, or already being familiar with Fedora, I can perceive nothing in that list that states or implies general purpose or generic or basic or play. easy to use operating system for alptop and desktop computers is lcear Actions speak louder than words. The need to zoom 3X-6X to reach legible a legible state belies polished, easy to use. no need to zoom anything and as said my eyes are really not good [1] here, ~42.25% the size of text that would likely be optimal only if black on white, closer to 20% of optimal size with the low contrast level actually used really? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Other download options
uhm - wrong screenshot in previous message :-( Am 11.12.2014 um 01:06 schrieb Reindl Harald: Am 11.12.2014 um 00:58 schrieb Felix Miata: Reindl Harald composed on 2014-12-10 13:54 (UTC+0100): Maros Zatko composed: I've noticed that other download options besides LIVE images are now gone from the website. Can you please explain how should (normal) user find non-LIVE image links there? I know this has been (probably intentionally) obfuscated before. Please put it back, even as obfuscated as it used to be. Or wanting to have a choice is too much? why not just scroll down? there is a big Download list in the footer Nothing in that footer, except the amount of whitespace, is big. The caps heading the footer columns are smaller than default size, which masked by gray on gray, are barely big enough to even find. the DOWNLOADS is big, see screenshot frankly i have a cornea implant and a plastic lens on both eyes Get Fedora Workstation Get Fedora Server Get Fedora Cloud Fedora Spins Are there really people not already familiar with Fedora who would have any clue what spin means in the context used? Torrent Downloads I don't know about others who think more logically than artistically, but when I'm looking for *important* information, like how to actually acquire that which the page is about, I don't look for or expect to find it hiding in gray on gray mousetype[1] in the /same/ (gray) block at the bottom of a page where normal people expect to find unimportant copyright legalese. well, one can also click on Workstation - Download now Without having assimilated its preceding description of workstation, or already being familiar with Fedora, I can perceive nothing in that list that states or implies general purpose or generic or basic or play. easy to use operating system for alptop and desktop computers is lcear Actions speak louder than words. The need to zoom 3X-6X to reach legible a legible state belies polished, easy to use. no need to zoom anything and as said my eyes are really not good [1] here, ~42.25% the size of text that would likely be optimal only if black on white, closer to 20% of optimal size with the low contrast level actually used really? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Other download options
[ re: https://getfedora.org/ ] Reindl Harald composed on 2014-12-11 01:06 (UTC+0100): Felix Miata composed: Actions speak louder than words. The need to zoom 3X-6X to reach legible a legible state belies polished, easy to use. no need to zoom anything and as said my eyes are really not good Your image hasn't presented anything useful, because you offered insufficient context to know what it is that you see when you look at what you captured. All we know is my eyes are not really good, whatever that means. We have no idea what your screen size is, what your resolution is, or what the distance between eyes and screen is. IOW, the physical size presented to you is utterly absent. Thus there is no basis for us to determine whether what you see would be legible outside of your personal viewspace. [1] here, ~42.25% the size of text that would likely be optimal only if black on white, closer to 20% of optimal size with the low contrast level actually used really? Really! Here is your image as presented to me, placed at its intrinsic size into the context of what is presented to me here by my display. In order to actually be presented with what is presented to my eyes, one must view these images with adequate context reproduced locally. At a minimum, such context requires viewing the following images such that a ruler can be put on the display screen to measure the incorporated sizing blocks at exactly the widths indicated. Each needs to be 1 wide (aka 25.4mm) neither more, nor less. http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/fedoget1412-1440-144.jpg (144 DPI) http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/fedoget1412-2048-120.jpg (120 DPI) What I was actually looking at while composing my previous thread message, and this, more closely approximates the latter, in that this screen's density is a direct match, while the former is from a 20% higher density screen. Yet higher density screens are fairly common now. Those using them and not applying defensive measures (e.g. zoom, disabled site styles, minimum font size) can be expected to be experiencing even poorer legibility on loading getfedora.org. To provide yourself context very roughly similar to that used to make those captures, load http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/sc-fedoget1412.html into a Gecko or KHTML web browser. If your screen density isn't a match to either of those used to make those images, you still won't be presented with what is presented here. That's because the size of a pixel depends on screen density, which is *a* reason why CSS should never size text or text containers in px, as getfedora.org and most of the rest of the web are doing. As to the sizes I wrote previously, 42.25% was calculated as follows: Browser optimal (aka default, as personalized) size: 20px nominal 12pt physical Text size produced by page CSS on the list items in the bottom columns: 13px nominal 7.8pt physical *Physical* relationship between actual default *size* and actual text *size*: 7.8^2 / 12^2 = .4225 So, yes, really! -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Other download options
Sorry to cut in, but whom can I contact about localization issues with the getfedora.org website? -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
