Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 05/06/2013 02:09 AM, Lars Seipel wrote: On Sat, May 04, 2013 at 01:03:11AM -0500, Chris Adams wrote: However, unless your installer image is signed, checking RPM signatures in anaconda is pointless (which is why the feature you mentioned is based on Secure Boot). If someone was going to the trouble of changing the RPM signatures, they could also change the public keys included in anaconda. Hmm. - the checksums for netinstall images are signed with a Fedora key - the corresponding public key is made available through https - therefore the integrity of installer images can be verified Obtaining an SSL certificate for fedoraproject.org shouldn't be much easier than getting your code signed to run under Secure Boot. Actually, it should be practically indefeasible to obtain a certificate for fedoraproject.org from a browser CA without consent from the Fedora project (or Red Hat). There have been several incidents where certificates were issued in a non-compliant manner by browser CAs, but there are guidelines, processes and compliance audits which aim to reduce such risks. In contrast, the Microsoft signing process for third party UEFI drivers has no safeguards whatever to prevent anyone from getting a signature on something that poses as a Fedora installer (or Windows installer, for that matter). This is not Microsoft's fault—it is just not evident from a first stage boot loader what it will eventually boot. And from a user point of view, all UEFI driver signatures are alike because they do not embed a cleartext developer name. (Not that UEFI firmware has Authenticode prompts which show the certificate on the driver.) -- Florian Weimer / Red Hat Product Security Team -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 09/05/13 08:39 PM, Dan Mashal wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 11:19 AM, Luya Tshimbalanga l...@fedoraproject.org wrote: You can call lacking online access justification stupid if you want, you forgot there are users who still prefer DVD installation rather than spin. You wanted to remove the entire Design suite package set (available since several release) from DVD without consulting the maintainer first so an arrangement to remove some individual software could be made. I could say the same thing about MATE package set you maintained because it duplicated other desktop environments unlike Design suite complementing either of them. Bruno posts summarized my view so I stop here. True. I didn't mean to pick on the design suite itself but more making a point that a lot of people are using that as a justification, my apologies Apologies accepted. -- Luya Tshimbalanga Graphic Web Designer E: l...@fedoraproject.org W: http://www.coolest-storm.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 02/05/13 05:46 AM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 20:26:13 -0400, Sam Varshavchik mr...@courier-mta.com wrote: Bill Nottingham writes: Anyway, here are my suggestions: valgrind eclipse gimp kdegames I don't think gimp is that great of a choice to drop. That's a tool that I think some of the less technical of our users might want to use and making it easy for them to install it is a good thing. +1. As Design Suite maintainer I failed to see why Gimp is listed for removal, its size is not that big. Luya -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 03/05/13 11:50 AM, Dan Mashal wrote: Of course there is. Yet, we remove things like GCC from the default install. Why? or a design suite I don't think this is needed on the DVD. This should be a separate spin (I think it is already). One can always yum install gimp after having a working desktop or minimal install. -1. Design Suite package is for those lacking online access and wanting to use available applications. Luya -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 12:07 AM, Luya Tshimbalanga l...@fedoraproject.org wrote: -1. Design Suite package is for those lacking online access and wanting to use available applications. I see a lot of stupid justifications for lacking online access. AN ENTIRE SPIN is not enough? Would you like us to mail you the spin by over night mail pre installed on a hard drive via overnight as well by snail mail? C'mon. Dan -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
- Original Message - Dan Mashal (dan.mas...@gmail.com) said: I think we should look at package dependencies. It seems that lots of unnecessary packages are being pulled when composing media. Here's everything new in the F19 DVD, sorted by size. I've dropped java-1.8.0-openjdk in the kickstart already, but that won't be enough. http://paste.fedoraproject.org/9849/36743327/ Bill, could you paste it again? Seems like the discussion steered different way but it's really the time to do some painful decision what to drop now, as Beta freeze is upon us. Jaroslav Bill -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
The discussion on what to drop from the install DVD and some of the live images is possible going to heated as people argue the case for packages they want to keep on the media. Please treat your fellow developers with respect during this discussion. Please try to provide reasoned arguments for or against keeping certain packages on the media. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 09/05/13 02:05 AM, Dan Mashal wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 12:07 AM, Luya Tshimbalanga l...@fedoraproject.org wrote: -1. Design Suite package is for those lacking online access and wanting to use available applications. I see a lot of stupid justifications for lacking online access. AN ENTIRE SPIN is not enough?\ You can call lacking online access justification stupid if you want, you forgot there are users who still prefer DVD installation rather than spin. You wanted to remove the entire Design suite package set (available since several release) from DVD without consulting the maintainer first so an arrangement to remove some individual software could be made. I could say the same thing about MATE package set you maintained because it duplicated other desktop environments unlike Design suite complementing either of them. Bruno posts summarized my view so I stop here. -- Luya Tshimbalanga Graphic Web Designer E: l...@fedoraproject.org W: http://www.coolest-storm.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 11:19 AM, Luya Tshimbalanga l...@fedoraproject.org wrote: You can call lacking online access justification stupid if you want, you forgot there are users who still prefer DVD installation rather than spin. You wanted to remove the entire Design suite package set (available since several release) from DVD without consulting the maintainer first so an arrangement to remove some individual software could be made. I could say the same thing about MATE package set you maintained because it duplicated other desktop environments unlike Design suite complementing either of them. Bruno posts summarized my view so I stop here. True. I didn't mean to pick on the design suite itself but more making a point that a lot of people are using that as a justification, my apologies. In addition, I used to prefer the DVD (with or without an online connection) myself because I could just down 4.7GB of Fedora goodness and install all of it at the same time at once. I made that point earlier in this thread. I did not mean to single out the design suite itself, even though my email seemed like it did. I no longer have any desire to download the DVD installer anymore due to the reasons stated in this email and my earlier emails in this thread. Dan -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 05/04/2013 08:03 AM, Chris Adams wrote: Once upon a time, Mike Pinkerton pseli...@mindspring.com said: On 3 May 2013, at 15:07, Chris Adams wrote: Once upon a time, Mike Pinkerton pseli...@mindspring.com said: Does anaconda check package signatures for the netinstall? I believe so. Checksums are definately checked (RPM won't install a corrupt package). Are you sure that signatures are checked? If so, why this feature? I thought that feature had been implemented, but the status page only shows 5%. The in-package checksums (along similar lines to the DVD media check) are checked, but not the signatures. However, unless your installer image is signed, checking RPM signatures in anaconda is pointless (which is why the feature you mentioned is based on Secure Boot). Unfortunately, Secure Boot does not help here. I already explained why Secure Boot is unusable for boot image verification: http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2013-January/176051.html Just because something is signed doesn't mean that it's harmless to run. Creating a complete chain of trust is hard. It's relatively easy to avoid trust in the Internet and the Fedora mirror network. It's not entirely trivial because we'd need overrides (or ways to inject key material) for additional repositories added with Kickstart. -- Florian Weimer / Red Hat Product Security Team -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 5 May 2013, at 20:31, Chris Adams wrote: Once upon a time, Lars Seipel lars.sei...@gmail.com said: - the checksums for netinstall images are signed with a Fedora key - the corresponding public key is made available through https - therefore the integrity of installer images can be verified That's only verifiable after the fact (when you want to use the installer) if you burn to CD/DVD (which I believe is less common these days). If you put it on a USB stick with something like livecd-iso-to-disk it gets changed. That also doesn't protect against malicious updates.img from the install server. In any case, I was talking about validation _during_ install, not prior to install. How many people compare the ISO checksum and the signature on the checksum file? AFAIK there is not automated tool to do that, so it is a bunch of manual steps. Sure, the steps are manual: download iso, download checksum file, verify signature on checksum file, verify checksum on iso. Once I've done that, though, I have a reasonable expectation that the iso -- and anaconda, the keys and rpms on it -- are good. And I only have to do those steps once per release image, not every time I install a system. I know that the images that I stored on my local repo server are ones that I have previously checked. Whether I then put that image on an USB stick, or mount it on a local network server, or stick it in a DVD drive, I trust that image and its contents as much as I trust anything coming from the Fedora project. For me, though, the real head scratcher is this: the keys on that iso are the ones that yum will use to verify signatures on updates -- why are they trustworthy enough for that, but not for verifying signatures on rpms downloaded via netinstall or additional repos configured in the DVD's installation source spoke? Makes no sense to me. To bring this back around to the topic of this thread, this is the reason that I've continued to use the DVD for installations, and then do a yum upgrade afterwards. It is the only way that I know to ensure that all installed rpms are actually verified. -- Mike -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson johan...@gmail.com wrote: On 05/03/2013 01:54 PM, Daniel P. Berrange wrote: While you can do all this with the netinstall ISO + a hosted install tree, this is not as convenient, because hosting or mirroring a single DVD image is much easier than mirroring an entire web install tree. Surely if you are mass creating vm's you use ks + cobbler and or spacewalk to do that instead af ISO file. JBG Cobbler, while very powerful,was a resource pig and was very awkward to configure the last couple of times I tried. I've actually come to prefer FAI for its flexibility and speed of setup. If I'm going to invest that much disk space in local mirrors of everything, I may has well support more operating systems and have a full tool suite. But it's possible to make much lighter installation setups, especially for offline deployments, with kickstart files added to a DVD. It could be even be more efficient with USB drives, but the USB installation tools remain awkward and less reliable to configure. And DVD installation is well supported for virtualization environments, even where the network configuration is not yet known or easily accessible for other setup reasons. Tagged VLAN's, for example, are still not well supported in any Fedora installer I've had a chance to work with. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Sat, May 04, 2013 at 01:03:11AM -0500, Chris Adams wrote: However, unless your installer image is signed, checking RPM signatures in anaconda is pointless (which is why the feature you mentioned is based on Secure Boot). If someone was going to the trouble of changing the RPM signatures, they could also change the public keys included in anaconda. Hmm. - the checksums for netinstall images are signed with a Fedora key - the corresponding public key is made available through https - therefore the integrity of installer images can be verified Obtaining an SSL certificate for fedoraproject.org shouldn't be much easier than getting your code signed to run under Secure Boot. Not checking RPM signatures seems to be the weakest link here. What am i missing? Lars -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
Once upon a time, Lars Seipel lars.sei...@gmail.com said: - the checksums for netinstall images are signed with a Fedora key - the corresponding public key is made available through https - therefore the integrity of installer images can be verified That's only verifiable after the fact (when you want to use the installer) if you burn to CD/DVD (which I believe is less common these days). If you put it on a USB stick with something like livecd-iso-to-disk it gets changed. That also doesn't protect against malicious updates.img from the install server. In any case, I was talking about validation _during_ install, not prior to install. How many people compare the ISO checksum and the signature on the checksum file? AFAIK there is not automated tool to do that, so it is a bunch of manual steps. -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
Once upon a time, Mike Pinkerton pseli...@mindspring.com said: On 3 May 2013, at 15:07, Chris Adams wrote: Once upon a time, Mike Pinkerton pseli...@mindspring.com said: Does anaconda check package signatures for the netinstall? I believe so. Checksums are definately checked (RPM won't install a corrupt package). Are you sure that signatures are checked? If so, why this feature? I thought that feature had been implemented, but the status page only shows 5%. The in-package checksums (along similar lines to the DVD media check) are checked, but not the signatures. However, unless your installer image is signed, checking RPM signatures in anaconda is pointless (which is why the feature you mentioned is based on Secure Boot). If someone was going to the trouble of changing the RPM signatures, they could also change the public keys included in anaconda. You'd have to have signatures for all the installer files (and a way to check them), which is along the lines of the feature you mentioned. I brought this up before, but didn't really follow up on it: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=117647 Creating a complete chain of trust is hard. The repo works fine for yum after installation. Is it a mirror of the Fedora or Everything directory? I haven't checked in a bit, but at one point there was some difference between the two related to the comps file (which defines the groups displayed in anaconda). yum would work fine without the comps file (except for groupinstall and such). Have you tried doing a netinstall from a specific mirror that you specified in the source spoke of anaconda rather than using the pre- configured repo? Did it work? Yes. I operate a mirror server, and then I also have a couple of private mirrors hanging off of it I use for my stuff (one at the office and one at home). -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 4 May 2013, at 02:03, Chris Adams wrote: Creating a complete chain of trust is hard. Sure, creating a complete chain of trust is hard, but the closest thing we have to it today is downloading an iso and verifying its checksum -- and trusting that (a) the release team verified the keys on the iso image, and (b) the checksum file hasn't been been tampered with. The keys on that iso are the ones that yum will use to check package signatures on updates. Why they are not used to check the signatures on packages anaconda installs is beyond me. It might be imperfect security, but it seems much more reasonable than abandoning signature checking altogether on a netinstall. The repo works fine for yum after installation. Is it a mirror of the Fedora or Everything directory? I haven't checked in a bit, but at one point there was some difference between the two related to the comps file (which defines the groups displayed in anaconda). yum would work fine without the comps file (except for groupinstall and such). We have internal mirrors of Fedora, Everything and Updates. I tried to use Fedora but will experiment with both it and Everything today. Have you tried doing a netinstall from a specific mirror that you specified in the source spoke of anaconda rather than using the pre- configured repo? Did it work? Yes. I operate a mirror server, and then I also have a couple of private mirrors hanging off of it I use for my stuff (one at the office and one at home). The problem I'm going to have in testing the F19 TC is that, for bandwidth reasons, our internal repo only mirrors the current version and arch that we use -- F18 on x86_64 at the moment. So I'll just have to pick a handful of external mirrors and try them. -- Mike -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 05/01/2013 10:03 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: 2) The web server environment Contains web server and web server runtimes (PHP, JBoss, Mongo, perl, python, rails) +1 If you are running web server, then you probably have internet connection. It is not necessary gigabit ethernet, but on the other hand very probably neither 32kbs modem. And if you have internet connection you can download those packages from one of mirrors. And if you are in data center it will be actually faster then from DVD. -- Miroslav Suchy Red Hat Systems Management Engineering -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
- Original Message - On 05/01/2013 06:37 PM, Pádraig Brady wrote: Why are we tied to DVD-5, 4.7GB (4.3GiB) at all? Do we distribute DVDs? Yes. Check with Fedora Ambassadors in EMEA. No. For Fedora 18, we did not have installation DVD media produced. One reason was missing Secure Boot support, another was - Multi Live DVD is more convenient to try Fedora. Only a few people asks for DVD for some reasons and we shipped installation DVDs to countries with limited internet access as DVD with bunch of software is pretty handy there. But nobody complaint after we start shipping Live DVDs only (probably it's also because of lifted CD size limitation - it now includes everything for daily use). But it leads to the question - how many people still prefer Installation DVDs? That default offering to download is Desktop Live spin now, KDE SIG officially supports KDE spin for installation... As EMEA Ambassadors, we distribute Multi Live DVDs only now. Jaroslav -- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
- Original Message - FWIW I agree with the general trend of discussion so far: let's find things to drop that don't really need to be on the DVD so we can keep MATE and Cinnamon. You can install those from live images or from repos of course, just like anything else, but they are things it makes a deal of sense to provide for offline users - probably more so than many of the candidates for removal so far - and there is a substantial PR benefit to including them. It's good PR to have Mate and Cinnamon, another question is - with Gnome Classic session - wouldn't be better to point our users to it now? But I tend to agree with trend - aim on users with DVDs, developers are usually able to bring stuff for theirs development needs (and there are much more options to select the right set than desktops). So count me +1 to remove it. To address a couple of other points that have come up: the world certainly hasn't reached the point where we can target DL DVDs or huge USB sticks and forget about the SL DVD target, no. We still have significant usage of the DVD images, ambassadors can confirm this. See my comment - Ambassadors can't confirm that - we do not distribute it any more. One more reason I forgot to mention: it's cheaper to produce more Multi Live DVDs - we get discount based on pieces in batch. Jaroslav -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
- Original Message - On 05/01/2013 10:03 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: 2) The web server environment Contains web server and web server runtimes (PHP, JBoss, Mongo, perl, python, rails) +1 If you are running web server, then you probably have internet connection. It is not necessary gigabit ethernet, but on the other hand very probably neither 32kbs modem. And if you have internet connection you can download those packages from one of mirrors. And if you are in data center it will be actually faster then from DVD. Sure, +1 too and even maintainers are wondering why the stuff is on DVD - see https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=958512 I find, the more interesting question is: why the heck are they included at the DVD at all??? for django. Jaroslav -- Miroslav Suchy Red Hat Systems Management Engineering -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 05/03/2013 01:40 PM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: - Original Message - FWIW I agree with the general trend of discussion so far: let's find things to drop that don't really need to be on the DVD so we can keep MATE and Cinnamon. You can install those from live images or from repos of course, just like anything else, but they are things it makes a deal of sense to provide for offline users - probably more so than many of the candidates for removal so far - and there is a substantial PR benefit to including them. It's good PR to have Mate and Cinnamon, another question is - with Gnome Classic session - wouldn't be better to point our users to it now? But I tend to agree with trend - aim on users with DVDs, developers are usually able to bring stuff for theirs development needs (and there are much more options to select the right set than desktops). So count me +1 to remove it. To address a couple of other points that have come up: the world certainly hasn't reached the point where we can target DL DVDs or huge USB sticks and forget about the SL DVD target, no. We still have significant usage of the DVD images, ambassadors can confirm this. See my comment - Ambassadors can't confirm that - we do not distribute it any more. One more reason I forgot to mention: it's cheaper to produce more Multi Live DVDs - we get discount based on pieces in batch. Jaroslav Why bother with the DVD et all and enter countless debates what should and should not be on it. Why not just make the assumption that administrators will use the netinstall and or ks and desktop users will use live spins? JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
- Original Message - On 05/03/2013 01:40 PM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: - Original Message - FWIW I agree with the general trend of discussion so far: let's find things to drop that don't really need to be on the DVD so we can keep MATE and Cinnamon. You can install those from live images or from repos of course, just like anything else, but they are things it makes a deal of sense to provide for offline users - probably more so than many of the candidates for removal so far - and there is a substantial PR benefit to including them. It's good PR to have Mate and Cinnamon, another question is - with Gnome Classic session - wouldn't be better to point our users to it now? But I tend to agree with trend - aim on users with DVDs, developers are usually able to bring stuff for theirs development needs (and there are much more options to select the right set than desktops). So count me +1 to remove it. To address a couple of other points that have come up: the world certainly hasn't reached the point where we can target DL DVDs or huge USB sticks and forget about the SL DVD target, no. We still have significant usage of the DVD images, ambassadors can confirm this. See my comment - Ambassadors can't confirm that - we do not distribute it any more. One more reason I forgot to mention: it's cheaper to produce more Multi Live DVDs - we get discount based on pieces in batch. Jaroslav Why bother with the DVD et all and enter countless debates what should and should not be on it. Why not just make the assumption that administrators will use the netinstall and or ks and desktop users will use live spins? I have to admit - I'm in favour of your suggestion. Just I have not stated it as clearly as you! Jaroslav JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
Once upon a time, Jaroslav Reznik jrez...@redhat.com said: But I tend to agree with trend - aim on users with DVDs, developers are usually able to bring stuff for theirs development needs (and there are much more options to select the right set than desktops). So count me +1 to remove it. Development is such a wide target; you're never going to include a significant amount of the development support on a single DVD (even if you excluded everything else). If you restricted it to say GNOME desktop development you might could do something useful (but then you'd annoy KDE, XFCE, etc. devs). You could try Web development and include a variety of PHP, perl, Ruby, etc., but that would still take a lot of space. Long-term (if we want to continue handling lots of packages on install DVDs), what would be nice would be for anaconda to support multiple DVDs for install _and_ allow them to be inserted for repo reading (so you could have a Desktop DVD with the installer and optionally add a Developer DVD, a Server DVD, etc., each with additional packages. I seem to remember this being a suggestion with RHL and/or early Fedora back in the days when it was pushing the limits of a CD (before everything moved to DVD). That would be a PITA to handle; my best guess would be that the install would have to be broken up into multiple transactions (one per DVD or install source), but you'd have to resolve deps first (so deps of the Development DVD that are part of the desktop could be installed in the Desktop DVD transaction). Alternately, I know work was done on getting yum to support media repos at one point (don't know where that went). You could just use the Desktop DVD during install, and then insert the Development DVD after boot (maybe a firstboot-type screen?). That still has the dependencies problem though. I don't know if all of that is worth the trouble. -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Fri, May 03, 2013 at 01:45:51PM +, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 05/03/2013 01:40 PM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: - Original Message - FWIW I agree with the general trend of discussion so far: let's find things to drop that don't really need to be on the DVD so we can keep MATE and Cinnamon. You can install those from live images or from repos of course, just like anything else, but they are things it makes a deal of sense to provide for offline users - probably more so than many of the candidates for removal so far - and there is a substantial PR benefit to including them. It's good PR to have Mate and Cinnamon, another question is - with Gnome Classic session - wouldn't be better to point our users to it now? But I tend to agree with trend - aim on users with DVDs, developers are usually able to bring stuff for theirs development needs (and there are much more options to select the right set than desktops). So count me +1 to remove it. To address a couple of other points that have come up: the world certainly hasn't reached the point where we can target DL DVDs or huge USB sticks and forget about the SL DVD target, no. We still have significant usage of the DVD images, ambassadors can confirm this. See my comment - Ambassadors can't confirm that - we do not distribute it any more. One more reason I forgot to mention: it's cheaper to produce more Multi Live DVDs - we get discount based on pieces in batch. Jaroslav Why bother with the DVD et all and enter countless debates what should and should not be on it. Why not just make the assumption that administrators will use the netinstall and or ks and desktop users will use live spins? The installation DVDs are widely used in virtualization / cloud arenas. eg with OpenStack people would upload the Fedora install DVD to the image service, so that it is then available to boot new VM instances. GNOME Boxes will also let you do automated installs from the DVD install media. The Oz tool will build appliance images using the DVD install media. While you can do all this with the netinstall ISO + a hosted install tree, this is not as convenient, because hosting or mirroring a single DVD image is much easier than mirroring an entire web install tree. Regards, Daniel -- |: http://berrange.com -o-http://www.flickr.com/photos/dberrange/ :| |: http://libvirt.org -o- http://virt-manager.org :| |: http://autobuild.org -o- http://search.cpan.org/~danberr/ :| |: http://entangle-photo.org -o- http://live.gnome.org/gtk-vnc :| -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 05/03/2013 01:54 PM, Daniel P. Berrange wrote: While you can do all this with the netinstall ISO + a hosted install tree, this is not as convenient, because hosting or mirroring a single DVD image is much easier than mirroring an entire web install tree. Surely if you are mass creating vm's you use ks + cobbler and or spacewalk to do that instead af ISO file. JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Fri, May 03, 2013 at 08:54:37 -0500, Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net wrote: Long-term (if we want to continue handling lots of packages on install DVDs), what would be nice would be for anaconda to support multiple DVDs for install _and_ allow them to be inserted for repo reading (so you could have a Desktop DVD with the installer and optionally add a Developer DVD, a Server DVD, etc., each with additional packages. I seem to remember this being a suggestion with RHL and/or early Fedora back in the days when it was pushing the limits of a CD (before everything moved to DVD). I don't think that's the route we want to take. This was a pain to support in the CD era and it won't be that long before we won't feel limited by DVD size and produce larger images. (Note the source rpm image is larger than a DVD already.) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
Once upon a time, Bruno Wolff III br...@wolff.to said: I don't think that's the route we want to take. This was a pain to support in the CD era and it won't be that long before we won't feel limited by DVD size and produce larger images. (Note the source rpm image is larger than a DVD already.) At this point, why is there a source RPM ISO? Does anybody actually use it to get source RPMs? -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
Am 03.05.2013 15:45, schrieb Jóhann B. Guðmundsson: Why bother with the DVD et all and enter countless debates what should and should not be on it. Why not just make the assumption that administrators will use the netinstall and or ks and desktop users will use live spins? because it is not true * i am administrator and probably one with the most fedora machines * i have never used netinstall because i like CD/DVD with minimal setup as start any bothering with netinstall takes much longer if you need it only all few years which is not enough to get routine * i never use KS because virtual servers are simply cloned and for physical machines it happens only all few years to install a machine from scratch which makes it not worth bother with always outdated KS * the live-spins are unuseable for me because i need RAID10 for rootfs and at least two additional RAID10 storages on most machines signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Fri, May 03, 2013 at 01:59:42PM +, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 05/03/2013 01:54 PM, Daniel P. Berrange wrote: While you can do all this with the netinstall ISO + a hosted install tree, this is not as convenient, because hosting or mirroring a single DVD image is much easier than mirroring an entire web install tree. Surely if you are mass creating vm's you use ks + cobbler and or spacewalk to do that instead af ISO file. Both of those require you to deploy extra infrastructure, which isn't needed if using the ISO. Different approaches suit different people, and for many people the ISO installer images are the basis for their chosen approach. Daniel -- |: http://berrange.com -o-http://www.flickr.com/photos/dberrange/ :| |: http://libvirt.org -o- http://virt-manager.org :| |: http://autobuild.org -o- http://search.cpan.org/~danberr/ :| |: http://entangle-photo.org -o- http://live.gnome.org/gtk-vnc :| -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Fri, May 03, 2013 at 09:12:09 -0500, Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net wrote: Once upon a time, Bruno Wolff III br...@wolff.to said: I don't think that's the route we want to take. This was a pain to support in the CD era and it won't be that long before we won't feel limited by DVD size and produce larger images. (Note the source rpm image is larger than a DVD already.) At this point, why is there a source RPM ISO? Does anybody actually use it to get source RPMs? I suspect it is mainly for GPL compliance. It has the packages at the same state as were used for the ISO builds. I doubt it gets used that much. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
Once upon a time, Bruno Wolff III br...@wolff.to said: On Fri, May 03, 2013 at 09:12:09 -0500, Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net wrote: At this point, why is there a source RPM ISO? Does anybody actually use it to get source RPMs? I suspect it is mainly for GPL compliance. It has the packages at the same state as were used for the ISO builds. I doubt it gets used that much. How does a DVD image (that won't fit on a DVD so I doubt anybody burns) satisfy some part of GPL compliance? The SRPMs are on the same server as the binaries (the same versions) and are not removed. -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Fri, 3 May 2013, Daniel P. Berrange wrote: Surely if you are mass creating vm's you use ks + cobbler and or spacewalk to do that instead af ISO file. Both of those require you to deploy extra infrastructure, which isn't needed if using the ISO. Different approaches suit different people, and for many people the ISO installer images are the basis for their chosen approach. Using a simple PXE boot requires the DVD (not net-install) if you want to point to a local repo to save bandwidth. One day I hope just mounting it would be enough to reconfigure the PXE subsystem, but unfortunately, the pxelinux.cfg stuff seems very path dependant and all distros do things just different enough each release that it remains a manual process to update my PXE server for a new release of fedora/centos/ubuntu. Paul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 05/03/2013 02:34 PM, Daniel P. Berrange wrote: On Fri, May 03, 2013 at 01:59:42PM +, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 05/03/2013 01:54 PM, Daniel P. Berrange wrote: While you can do all this with the netinstall ISO + a hosted install tree, this is not as convenient, because hosting or mirroring a single DVD image is much easier than mirroring an entire web install tree. Surely if you are mass creating vm's you use ks + cobbler and or spacewalk to do that instead af ISO file. Both of those require you to deploy extra infrastructure, which isn't needed if using the ISO. Not really needed? One would think you want to update all the hundreds if not thousand of guest host internally to save bandwith and or maximize profit if you charge for bandwith. Different approaches suit different people, and for many people the ISO installer images are the basis for their chosen approach. I have a hard time believing that if every release cycle we alter comps and or packages shipped on the ISO JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 05/03/2013 09:45 AM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: snip Why not just make the assumption that administrators will use the netinstall and or ks and desktop users will use live spins? JBG I don't know if it is still the case, but historically you could NOT specify a file system different from the live spin--ext4. -- Regards, OldFart -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 05/03/2013 04:22 PM, Clyde E. Kunkel wrote: On 05/03/2013 09:45 AM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: snip Why not just make the assumption that administrators will use the netinstall and or ks and desktop users will use live spins? JBG I don't know if it is still the case, but historically you could NOT specify a file system different from the live spin--ext4. That doesn't apply for the last few releases. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 05/03/2013 12:30 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: On 05/03/2013 04:22 PM, Clyde E. Kunkel wrote: On 05/03/2013 09:45 AM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: snip Why not just make the assumption that administrators will use the netinstall and or ks and desktop users will use live spins? JBG I don't know if it is still the case, but historically you could NOT specify a file system different from the live spin--ext4. That doesn't apply for the last few releases. Rahul Well, heck, just go with spins then. Put them on DVDs. Allow a default desktop environament and a selection of other desktop environments. Common brown bear users will use the default spin (Gnome) and more sophisticated users will pick their spin and if they need something not on the spin, they will yum install it. I don't intend to start the discussion on default desktop, but it really doesn't seem to be of any consequence since all popular desktops have their own spin. -- Regards, OldFart -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 3 May 2013, at 09:45, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: Why bother with the DVD et all and enter countless debates what should and should not be on it. Why not just make the assumption that administrators will use the netinstall and or ks and desktop users will use live spins? When you download the DVD iso you can verify its checksum. Does anaconda check package signatures for the netinstall? Does netinstall even work well? For F18 I planned to do netinstalls on a dozen or so desktop workstations and a couple of new servers, using our internal trusted Fedora repo. After specifying our internal repo as the source, netinstall would not allow me to choose the software to install -- all I got was the yellow triangle on the summary page, and blank pages where I should have been able to choose Gnome desktop, network server, etc. If I selected the software first, then chose our internal Fedora repo as the source, netinstall would delete the software choice, leaving me in the same predicament -- I could choose either the software to install or the repo from which to install it, but not both. Of course, anaconda won't start the installation until both are satisfied. So, in the end, I had to do all the installations with a DVD, then do updates from our internal Fedora repo. I've been meaning to file a bug about this, but haven't found the time yet. -- Mike -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 6:45 AM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson johan...@gmail.com wrote: On 05/03/2013 01:40 PM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: Why not just make the assumption that administrators will use the netinstall and or ks and desktop users will use live spins? JBG I used to use the DVD at one point as a user.. before Fedora 18. *sheds tear* Dan -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Dan Mashal dan.mas...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 6:45 AM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson johan...@gmail.com wrote: On 05/03/2013 01:40 PM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: Why not just make the assumption that administrators will use the netinstall and or ks and desktop users will use live spins? JBG I used to use the DVD at one point as a user.. before Fedora 18. *sheds tear* I recall pitching a major hissyfit when floppy installation was deprecated. You may hereby remove yourself from my lawn. :) -J Dan -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- http://cecinestpasunefromage.wordpress.com/ in your fear, seek only peace in your fear, seek only love -d. bowie -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 05/03/2013 01:14 PM, Mike Pinkerton wrote: So, in the end, I had to do all the installations with a DVD, then do updates from our internal Fedora repo. I've been meaning to file a bug about this, but haven't found the time yet. You could try the latest dev release of Fedora 19 and see if the problems still exist https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test-announce/2013-May/000670.html Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
Jaroslav Reznik (jrez...@redhat.com) said: - Original Message - FWIW I agree with the general trend of discussion so far: let's find things to drop that don't really need to be on the DVD so we can keep MATE and Cinnamon. You can install those from live images or from repos of course, just like anything else, but they are things it makes a deal of sense to provide for offline users - probably more so than many of the candidates for removal so far - and there is a substantial PR benefit to including them. It's good PR to have Mate and Cinnamon, another question is - with Gnome Classic session - wouldn't be better to point our users to it now? But I tend to agree with trend - aim on users with DVDs, developers are usually able to bring stuff for theirs development needs (and there are much more options to select the right set than desktops). So count me +1 to remove it. Hm, I've always thought of it differently - if we're trying to provide good value in the DVD media as a demonstration of all the things you can do with Fedora, isn't there more value in a development workstation, or a design suite, or a web application stach, or other dissimilar things rather than the marginal added value of a 4th (or 5th, or 6th, or 7th) desktop? This is also why I've always found the multi-desktop DVD to be a strange thing to hand out, unless we're trying to tell people that Fedora is best for picking between one of 7 desktops and not other things. Bill -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 05/03/2013 02:16 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: Hm, I've always thought of it differently - if we're trying to provide good value in the DVD media as a demonstration of all the things you can do with Fedora, isn't there more value in a development workstation, or a design suite, or a web application stach, or other dissimilar things rather than the marginal added value of a 4th (or 5th, or 6th, or 7th) desktop? This is also why I've always found the multi-desktop DVD to be a strange thing to hand out, unless we're trying to tell people that Fedora is best for picking between one of 7 desktops and not other things. People tend to be far more polarized about their personal choice of a desktop environment apparently and the multi-desktop DVD just cuts the cost of distributing several different Live CD's just to appease users and yes, it does give the feeling the Fedora is just a desktop distribution which is misleading. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 11:16 AM, Bill Nottingham nott...@redhat.com wrote: Hm, I've always thought of it differently - if we're trying to provide good value in the DVD media as a demonstration of all the things you can do with Fedora It did. Until I couldn't install multiple desktops anymore. (18) Isn't there more value in a development workstation Of course there is. Yet, we remove things like GCC from the default install. Why? or a design suite I don't think this is needed on the DVD. This should be a separate spin (I think it is already). One can always yum install gimp after having a working desktop or minimal install. or a web application stach, or other dissimilar things rather than Define web application stack. This definition changes daily. the marginal added value of a 4th (or 5th, or 6th, or 7th) desktop? I disagree that these are marginal value adds considering they got more press than any other feature in Fedora 18. This is also why I've always found the multi-desktop DVD to be a strange thing to hand out. I agree. It's useless to an experienced user. I'd rather be handing out netinstall CD's as an ambassador. Cheaper, leaner, more updated packages get installed. unless we're trying to tell people that Fedora is best for picking between one of 7 desktops and not other things. We're trying to be too many things at once. Let's get back to basics. A nice stable linux distro that offers you the most choice with the most updated packages that is stable. Dan -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
Once upon a time, Mike Pinkerton pseli...@mindspring.com said: Does anaconda check package signatures for the netinstall? I believe so. Checksums are definately checked (RPM won't install a corrupt package). Does netinstall even work well? Certainly. I actually haven't installed Fedora (or RHEL/CentOS) any other way in a long time (probably at least 5 years). Just about all of the RHEL/CentOS installs, and some of the Fedora installs, were from kickstart, but most of the Fedora installs were interactive. For F18 I planned to do netinstalls on a dozen or so desktop workstations and a couple of new servers, using our internal trusted Fedora repo. After specifying our internal repo as the source, netinstall would not allow me to choose the software to install -- all I got was the yellow triangle on the summary page, and blank pages where I should have been able to choose Gnome desktop, network server, etc. I would say that sounds like there was something wrong with your repo. -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Fri, 2013-05-03 at 08:54 -0500, Chris Adams wrote: Long-term (if we want to continue handling lots of packages on install DVDs), what would be nice would be for anaconda to support multiple DVDs for install _and_ allow them to be inserted for repo reading (so you could have a Desktop DVD with the installer and optionally add a Developer DVD, a Server DVD, etc., each with additional packages. I seem to remember this being a suggestion with RHL and/or early Fedora back in the days when it was pushing the limits of a CD (before everything moved to DVD). That would be a PITA to handle; my best guess would be that the install would have to be broken up into multiple transactions (one per DVD or install source), but you'd have to resolve deps first (so deps of the Development DVD that are part of the desktop could be installed in the Desktop DVD transaction). We've done it before. For multiple CDs. We may even have done it for multiple floppies wy back in the day. I recall the anaconda folks rejoicing wildly as they were finally able to drop the 'multi-disc' code; I suspect you'd have to buy them many, many beers to convince them to put it back in again. :) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Fri, 2013-05-03 at 16:22 -0400, Clyde E. Kunkel wrote: On 05/03/2013 09:45 AM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: snip Why not just make the assumption that administrators will use the netinstall and or ks and desktop users will use live spins? JBG I don't know if it is still the case, but historically you could NOT specify a file system different from the live spin--ext4. That's no longer the case since F18. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 3 May 2013, at 15:07, Chris Adams wrote: Once upon a time, Mike Pinkerton pseli...@mindspring.com said: Does anaconda check package signatures for the netinstall? I believe so. Checksums are definately checked (RPM won't install a corrupt package). Are you sure that signatures are checked? If so, why this feature? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ PackageSignatureCheckingDuringOSInstall Does netinstall even work well? Certainly. I actually haven't installed Fedora (or RHEL/CentOS) any other way in a long time (probably at least 5 years). Just about all of the RHEL/CentOS installs, and some of the Fedora installs, were from kickstart, but most of the Fedora installs were interactive. For F18 I planned to do netinstalls on a dozen or so desktop workstations and a couple of new servers, using our internal trusted Fedora repo. After specifying our internal repo as the source, netinstall would not allow me to choose the software to install -- all I got was the yellow triangle on the summary page, and blank pages where I should have been able to choose Gnome desktop, network server, etc. I would say that sounds like there was something wrong with your repo. The repo works fine for yum after installation. Have you tried doing a netinstall from a specific mirror that you specified in the source spoke of anaconda rather than using the pre- configured repo? Did it work? I am going to take Rahul's earlier suggestion and try the current F19 TC this weekend to see if I get any better result. -- Mike -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
I usually install either from the default desktop Live media or the network install, depending on what I'm doing. The advantages to the net install are 1. The image fits on damn near anything. I think it's too big for one of those 220 MB mini-CDs now but a 512 MB USB stick or a regular CD is fine. 2. You get to pick the desktop and the packages, including stuff that's not on the DVD. 3. If you're in the middle of an N-month release cycle, you don't have an extra huge package download for updates - you get the latest when you're done. I could live perfectly well without the DVD. Maybe we should take a leaf from the Ubuntu folks and ship a CD-sized server installer. On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 6:32 AM, Jaroslav Reznik jrez...@redhat.com wrote: - Original Message - On 05/01/2013 06:37 PM, Pádraig Brady wrote: Why are we tied to DVD-5, 4.7GB (4.3GiB) at all? Do we distribute DVDs? Yes. Check with Fedora Ambassadors in EMEA. No. For Fedora 18, we did not have installation DVD media produced. One reason was missing Secure Boot support, another was - Multi Live DVD is more convenient to try Fedora. Only a few people asks for DVD for some reasons and we shipped installation DVDs to countries with limited internet access as DVD with bunch of software is pretty handy there. But nobody complaint after we start shipping Live DVDs only (probably it's also because of lifted CD size limitation - it now includes everything for daily use). But it leads to the question - how many people still prefer Installation DVDs? That default offering to download is Desktop Live spin now, KDE SIG officially supports KDE spin for installation... As EMEA Ambassadors, we distribute Multi Live DVDs only now. Jaroslav -- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- Twitter: http://twitter.com/znmeb; Computational Journalism Publishers Workbench http://j.mp/CompJournBench/ Get out of the building - and don't come back till you have the order! -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
Am 01.05.2013 22:48, schrieb Ben Cotton: On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 4:39 PM, Dan Mashal dan.mas...@gmail.com wrote: gnome-getting-started-docs.noarch -- is this really needed? Why doesn't Gnome 3 get docs online or something? It's entirely possible that someone who is downloading the DVD image intends to install on a machine that doesn't have a consistent network connection. In that case, offline documentation is very useful it's also entirely possible that someone is not using GNOME at all docs should generally be splitted out to sub-packages without hard dependencies because it's also possible that someone has 20,30,40 machines in the same network and on the same SAN storage and does not need waste the space for docs/manpages 40 times [root@master:~]$ which man /usr/bin/which: no man in (/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/root/bin:/scripts) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 1:55 PM, Robert Relyea rrel...@redhat.com wrote: Thunderbird is new? Drop it. Hardly new since I've been using it on Fedora for 8 years now. bob New to the DVD. On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 1:48 PM, Ben Cotton bcot...@fedoraproject.org wrote: It's entirely possible that someone who is downloading the DVD image intends to install on a machine that doesn't have a consistent network connection. In that case, offline documentation is very useful. -- Ben Cotton -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Not really. This is a straw man argument. Dan -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 05/01/2013 10:21 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: Dan Mashal (dan.mas...@gmail.com) said: I think we should look at package dependencies. It seems that lots of unnecessary packages are being pulled when composing media. Here's everything new in the F19 DVD, sorted by size. I've dropped java-1.8.0-openjdk in the kickstart already, but that won't be enough. http://paste.fedoraproject.org/9849/36743327/ Bill Bill, Is there any particular reason to pull @perl-web or @python-web (and likewise @rubyonrails, and @php) to the DVD? That was introduced in the commit [1]. I don't disagree in having those groups, but pulling them onto the DVD will probably pull a huge bunch of deps in. Am I just wrong here? Matthias [1] https://git.fedorahosted.org/cgit/spin-kickstarts.git/commit/fedora-install-fedora.ks?h=f19id=bdd2e5cd074f6ad81deafc44ce373efc450d16a6 -- Matthias Runge mru...@matthias-runge.de -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 16:48:28 -0400, Ben Cotton bcot...@fedoraproject.org wrote: On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 4:39 PM, Dan Mashal dan.mas...@gmail.com wrote: gnome-getting-started-docs.noarch -- is this really needed? Why doesn't Gnome 3 get docs online or something? It's entirely possible that someone who is downloading the DVD image intends to install on a machine that doesn't have a consistent network connection. In that case, offline documentation is very useful. I think keeping docs on the DVD is useful, and shouldn't summarily be dropped. Is there an easy way to see where there are multiple packages being brought in where only one is needed to satisfy a particular dependency? -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 01:55:29PM -0700, Robert Relyea wrote: Thunderbird is new? Drop it. Hardly new since I've been using it on Fedora for 8 years now. It's not a new package. Rather, it's new for the installation DVD. Fedora 18 did not include thunderbird on the install DVD: http://dl.fedoraproject.org/pub/fedora/linux/releases/18/Fedora/x86_64/os/Packages/t/ It was available in the Everything set, though: http://dl.fedoraproject.org/pub/fedora/linux/releases/18/Everything/x86_64/os/Packages/t/ Jeff -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 05/01/2013 09:03 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: The F19 DVD is currently *way* over size. (i686: 417MB, x86_64: 311MB). That's almost certainly more than can be fixed by trimming around the edges; we need to remove actual functionality that's on the DVD. Options include: 1) One/some of the desktops F19 DVD currently includes - GNOME - KDE - XFCE - LXDE - Sugar - MATE (new in F19) - Cinnamon (new in F19) 2) The web server environment Contains web server and web server runtimes (PHP, JBoss, Mongo, perl, python, rails) 3) The developer content creator workstation Contains the web server stuff above, Eclipse, developer tools, designer tools, Fedora packaging tools, and so on. Opinions? Why are we tied to DVD-5, 4.7GB (4.3GiB) at all? Do we distribute DVDs? If so couldn't we use a newer DVD standard? I can't see any users wanting to burn DVDs rather than using USB sticks etc. I'd be more inclined to align stuff at 1GB, 4GB, 8GB to fit in USB media. Larger media is a bit questionable anyway, since it's means more stuff gets out of date. I notice for F18, each particular desktop spin seems to fit in 1GB: http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/live-respins/ All the source requires DVD-9 (8.5GB), but again that's of marginal value. cheers, Pádraig. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
(batching a couple of replies) Stephen Gallagher (sgall...@redhat.com) said: I notice that both mariadb-server and community-mysql-server are on the list. Given that FESCo decided some time ago that the preferred version was going to be MariaDB (but that we were going to permit MySQL to remain in the repos under other maintainership), I'd say we should drop the community-mysql packages from the DVD. This should save us a respectable bit of space. Done - with that and the 1.8 JDK removed, that leaves... ~270MB to find to remove somewhere. Dan Mashal (dan.mas...@gmail.com) said: Why is wayland being included? Last I checked we are still using X11. 42596 wayland-devel.x86_64 21216 libwayland-client-devel.x86_64 14860 libwayland-cursor.x86_64 7204libwayland-cursor-devel.x86_64 It's a library protocol apps can use for testing. Also... it amounts to 0.02% of the space we were over in TC1. Thunderbird is new? Drop it. Let's use evolution. That would be up to the Cinnamon maintainer, who is the one that is including it. gnome-getting-started-docs.noarch -- is this really needed? Why doesn't Gnome 3 get docs online or something? GNOME has always included offline docs/help - I don't see why that should suddenly change. Quite a few devel packages as well. Well, yes - as said, the DVD includes a developer workstation install. Bill -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 05/01/2013 10:39 PM, Dan Mashal wrote: Why is wayland being included? Last I checked we are still using X11. 42596 wayland-devel.x86_64 21216 libwayland-client-devel.x86_64 14860 libwayland-cursor.x86_64 7204libwayland-cursor-devel.x86_64 Thunderbird is new? Drop it. Let's use evolution. = No, since we already maintain a whole bunch of desktop environments on the DVD, why can't we have two email clients there? Looking at: 11694552mate-icon-theme.noarch 10799132mate-backgrounds.noarch Why can't mate use the default backgrounds? If it can, shouldn't we drop additional backgrounds and themes? Matthias -- Matthias Runge mru...@matthias-runge.de -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
Bill Nottingham writes: The F19 DVD is currently *way* over size. (i686: 417MB, x86_64: 311MB). That's almost certainly more than can be fixed by trimming around the edges; we need to remove actual functionality that's on the DVD. Options include: 1) One/some of the desktops F19 DVD currently includes - GNOME Bet a thousand quatloos someone's going to suggest dropping Gnome, before the week is over. Anyway, here are my suggestions: valgrind eclipse gimp kdegames Nice chunk of real estate there. Only devs needs valgrind. It's my impression that eclipse has somewhat eclipsed in popularity. gimp and kdegames are still quite popular, but they're not needed for a base install, and it's easy enough to install them afterwards. pgp57aufqe88Y.pgp Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 05/01/2013 04:21 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: I've dropped java-1.8.0-openjdk in the kickstart already, but that won't be enough. As a maintainer of java-1.8.0-openjdk, I am sad to see it get dropped, but given the circumstances, this makes sense. It's a preview after all. Here's everything new in the F19 DVD, sorted by size. http://paste.fedoraproject.org/9849/36743327/ Would a list of source package (ie, size of all binary package produced by a single source package) work better since we can examine bigger chunks at a time? Could we also get a list of all packages on the DVD sorted by size? Applying Amdahl's law will be more effective with more bigger packages. Cheers, Omair [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdahl's_law -- PGP Key: 66484681 (http://pgp.mit.edu/) Fingerprint = F072 555B 0A17 3957 4E95 0056 F286 F14F 6648 4681 -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 10:39 PM, Dan Mashal dan.mas...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Bill Nottingham nott...@redhat.com wrote: Dan Mashal (dan.mas...@gmail.com) said: I think we should look at package dependencies. It seems that lots of unnecessary packages are being pulled when composing media. Here's everything new in the F19 DVD, sorted by size. I've dropped java-1.8.0-openjdk in the kickstart already, but that won't be enough. http://paste.fedoraproject.org/9849/36743327/ Bill -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Why is wayland being included? Last I checked we are still using X11. 42596 wayland-devel.x86_64 21216 libwayland-client-devel.x86_64 14860 libwayland-cursor.x86_64 7204libwayland-cursor-devel.x86_64 Probably pulled in by toolkits that have a wayland backend (gtk3, qt?) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 05/02/2013 10:05 AM, Matthias Runge wrote: On 05/01/2013 10:21 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: Dan Mashal (dan.mas...@gmail.com) said: I think we should look at package dependencies. It seems that lots of unnecessary packages are being pulled when composing media. Here's everything new in the F19 DVD, sorted by size. I've dropped java-1.8.0-openjdk in the kickstart already, but that won't be enough. http://paste.fedoraproject.org/9849/36743327/ Bill Bill, Is there any particular reason to pull @perl-web or @python-web (and likewise @rubyonrails, and @php) to the DVD? That was introduced in the commit [1]. I don't disagree in having those groups, but pulling them onto the DVD will probably pull a huge bunch of deps in. Am I just wrong here? Matthias [1] https://git.fedorahosted.org/cgit/spin-kickstarts.git/commit/fedora-install-fedora.ks?h=f19id=bdd2e5cd074f6ad81deafc44ce373efc450d16a6 It depends what should dvd offer. I guess we want there everything cool, so new users don't have to install additional packages outside of dvd. Otherwise we could offer only minimal installation. Marcela -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
Hi On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 8:05 AM, drago01 drag...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 10:39 PM, Dan Mashal dan.mas...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Bill Nottingham nott...@redhat.com wrote: Dan Mashal (dan.mas...@gmail.com) said: Why is wayland being included? Last I checked we are still using X11. 42596 wayland-devel.x86_64 21216 libwayland-client-devel.x86_64 14860 libwayland-cursor.x86_64 7204libwayland-cursor-devel.x86_64 Probably pulled in by toolkits that have a wayland backend (gtk3, qt?) This is not new. mesa-libEGL pulls in libwayland-client even in Fedora 18. We are on a transition path to Wayland already. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Thu, May 02, 2013 at 02:37:00 +0100, Pádraig Brady p...@draigbrady.com wrote: Why are we tied to DVD-5, 4.7GB (4.3GiB) at all? I think the target is actually 4 GiB for file system reasons. It makes downloading to some older files systems possible. Do we distribute DVDs? If so couldn't we use a newer DVD standard? I can't see any users wanting to burn DVDs rather than using USB sticks etc. This is pretty much what happened with CD images. Eventually this will change, but it isn't clear to me that this is the right time to make that change. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 20:26:13 -0400, Sam Varshavchik mr...@courier-mta.com wrote: Bill Nottingham writes: Anyway, here are my suggestions: valgrind eclipse gimp kdegames I don't think gimp is that great of a choice to drop. That's a tool that I think some of the less technical of our users might want to use and making it easy for them to install it is a good thing. I'd rather see us trimming more of the lesser used server or developer stuff from the DVD then end user stuff. (Barring games. There is another spin for that and many are getting so big these days that a dedicated games spin can only provide a few of the more popular games and still fit on a DVD.) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 05/02/2013 01:30 PM, Marcela Mašláňová wrote: It depends what should dvd offer. I guess we want there everything cool, so new users don't have to install additional packages outside of dvd. Otherwise we could offer only minimal installation. Marcela Exactly. Would anybody expect to set up a development system without networking connection? I don't. Given that, I propose, to remove the development related stuff from the DVD, knowing that I need to fetch that stuff later from the net. -- Matthias Runge mru...@matthias-runge.de -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 05/01/2013 06:37 PM, Pádraig Brady wrote: Why are we tied to DVD-5, 4.7GB (4.3GiB) at all? Do we distribute DVDs? Yes. Check with Fedora Ambassadors in EMEA. If so couldn't we use a newer DVD standard? That would reduce coverage significantly. The de facto standard (what customers have) is what was prevalent in the first world 5 to 7 years ago; which omits 8.5GB DVD (DVD/DL). I can't see any users wanting to burn DVDs rather than using USB sticks etc. I burn DVDs. I use them. I use USB flash memory, too, but DVDs have advantages for some of my uses: - DVD can be labeled with a marking pen - burning 16X DVD+R is faster than livecd-iso-to-disk to USB flash memory - keeping track of 10 DVD (different contents) is not a problem - DVD is much less likely to be overwritten (DVD+R never) - DVD is incrementally less expensive (the next 16X DVD+R is $0.25 to $0.40; 4X DVD+RW is $0.40 to $0.60; 8GB USB flash memory with = 5MB/s average during an install is $9) - DVD is inexpensive to give away - DVD collection of releases is useful for archive and support - DVD+R lasts = 10 years; USB flash tends to fail (bit errors) in 7 to 8 years. - I still support hardware that cannot boot directly from USB. -- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Matthias Runge mru...@matthias-runge.de wrote: Would anybody expect to set up a development system without networking connection? Maybe they're frequently on the road or only develop for their local machine. Is it a rare use case? Probably. The big issue with this discussion is that we don't seem to know who is the target audience for the DVDs. We're not going to be able to please everyone, but we can't intelligently trim packages without knowing what direction we want to take the DVD. -- Ben Cotton -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
Dne 1.5.2013 22:21, Bill Nottingham napsal(a): Dan Mashal (dan.mas...@gmail.com) said: I think we should look at package dependencies. It seems that lots of unnecessary packages are being pulled when composing media. Here's everything new in the F19 DVD, sorted by size. I've dropped java-1.8.0-openjdk in the kickstart already, but that won't be enough. http://paste.fedoraproject.org/9849/36743327/ Bill I'm surprised to see JRuby on the list. Not sure how did it happen? I hope it is not in place of Ruby MRI. Vít -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 2 May 2013 15:15, John Reiser jrei...@bitwagon.com wrote: On 05/01/2013 06:37 PM, Pádraig Brady wrote: Why are we tied to DVD-5, 4.7GB (4.3GiB) at all? Do we distribute DVDs? Yes. Check with Fedora Ambassadors in EMEA. If so couldn't we use a newer DVD standard? That would reduce coverage significantly. The de facto standard (what customers have) is what was prevalent in the first world 5 to 7 years ago; which omits 8.5GB DVD (DVD/DL). I can't see any users wanting to burn DVDs rather than using USB sticks etc. I burn DVDs. I use them. I use USB flash memory, too, but DVDs have advantages for some of my uses: - DVD can be labeled with a marking pen - burning 16X DVD+R is faster than livecd-iso-to-disk to USB flash memory - keeping track of 10 DVD (different contents) is not a problem - DVD is much less likely to be overwritten (DVD+R never) - DVD is incrementally less expensive (the next 16X DVD+R is $0.25 to $0.40; 4X DVD+RW is $0.40 to $0.60; 8GB USB flash memory with = 5MB/s average during an install is $9) - DVD is inexpensive to give away - DVD collection of releases is useful for archive and support - DVD+R lasts = 10 years; USB flash tends to fail (bit errors) in 7 to 8 years. - I still support hardware that cannot boot directly from USB. I think USB sticks will become much more usable when Fedora allows booting from iso images like some other distributions already do. Currently the standard way involves completely overwriting everything on the stick (1 distribution per stick). Personally I install grub on the stick, extract the contents of the iso into a directory and manually adjust grub to match (so I now have an i686/x86_64, f16-f18, KDE Live/DVD USB sick). Seems to me it should be possible to simplify this a lot (install grub, copy iso, boot) so that USB sticks are usable by the masses without having to dedicate an entire stick to the task. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
Once upon a time, John5342 john5...@gmail.com said: I think USB sticks will become much more usable when Fedora allows booting from iso images like some other distributions already do. Currently the standard way involves completely overwriting everything on the stick (1 distribution per stick). I belive this has not been the case for a while now; livecd-iso-to-disk has: --multi Used when installing multiple image copies to signal configuration of the boot files for the image in the --livedir dir parameter. --livedir dir Used with multiple image installations to designate the directory dir for the particular image. -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On May 2, 2013, at 6:40 AM, Bruno Wolff III br...@wolff.to wrote: This is pretty much what happened with CD images. Eventually this will change, but it isn't clear to me that this is the right time to make that change. CentOS 6 uses two DVD images. Apple, before dropping DVD's with new computers, went with two DVD's for a period, even though they had hardware that supported DVD/DL. There's precedent. If it's going to cause aneurisms figuring out what to drop, just use two images. Chris Murphy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
Sam Varshavchik wrote: Anyway, here are my suggestions: ... kdegames I'll see if I can help make that happen (replaced by kdegames-minimal) -- rex -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 2 May 2013 16:59, Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net wrote: Once upon a time, John5342 john5...@gmail.com said: I think USB sticks will become much more usable when Fedora allows booting from iso images like some other distributions already do. Currently the standard way involves completely overwriting everything on the stick (1 distribution per stick). I belive this has not been the case for a while now; livecd-iso-to-disk has: --multi Used when installing multiple image copies to signal configuration of the boot files for the image in the --livedir dir parameter. --livedir dir Used with multiple image installations to designate the directory dir for the particular image. When I last tried a year or two ago it kept blasting everything away and I found a related bug which I never saw fixed. Will have to try this again though. Thanks for the info. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
Il 02/05/2013 18:08, Chris Murphy ha scritto: On May 2, 2013, at 6:40 AM, Bruno Wolff III br...@wolff.to wrote: This is pretty much what happened with CD images. Eventually this will change, but it isn't clear to me that this is the right time to make that change. CentOS 6 uses two DVD images. Apple, before dropping DVD's with new computers, went with two DVD's for a period, even though they had hardware that supported DVD/DL. There's precedent. If it's going to cause aneurisms figuring out what to drop, just use two images. Apple used DVD/DL as soon as they added DL burning hardware, I think that was 10.4 (Tiger). Paolo -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
Chris Murphy (li...@colorremedies.com) said: On May 2, 2013, at 6:40 AM, Bruno Wolff III br...@wolff.to wrote: This is pretty much what happened with CD images. Eventually this will change, but it isn't clear to me that this is the right time to make that change. CentOS 6 uses two DVD images. Apple, before dropping DVD's with new computers, went with two DVD's for a period, even though they had hardware that supported DVD/DL. There's precedent. If it's going to cause aneurisms figuring out what to drop, just use two images. Chained images? We dropped split media support in the installer, so it would need to be two different images without installer changes. Bill -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
Is there actual data from what people 'yum install' we could use to make decisions? I suspect most people install from the desktop default media and then just add the stuff they want. If we know what that stuff they want is, that's what should be on the DVD. On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 10:29 AM, Bill Nottingham nott...@redhat.com wrote: Chris Murphy (li...@colorremedies.com) said: On May 2, 2013, at 6:40 AM, Bruno Wolff III br...@wolff.to wrote: This is pretty much what happened with CD images. Eventually this will change, but it isn't clear to me that this is the right time to make that change. CentOS 6 uses two DVD images. Apple, before dropping DVD's with new computers, went with two DVD's for a period, even though they had hardware that supported DVD/DL. There's precedent. If it's going to cause aneurisms figuring out what to drop, just use two images. Chained images? We dropped split media support in the installer, so it would need to be two different images without installer changes. Bill -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- Twitter: http://twitter.com/znmeb; Computational Journalism Publishers Workbench http://j.mp/CompJournBench/ Get out of the building - and don't come back till you have the order! -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On May 2, 2013, at 11:29 AM, Bill Nottingham nott...@redhat.com wrote: Chained images? We dropped split media support in the installer, so it would need to be two different images without installer changes. Or a feature of first boot to call yum to install user selectable things such as the bigger apps, from the local media. Or LiveDVD iso remains DVD/SL for both current and older hardware. And the install DVD (not-live) moves to DVD/DL. Chris Murphy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Thu, 2013-05-02 at 10:34 -0700, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote: Is there actual data from what people 'yum install' we could use to make decisions? I suspect most people install from the desktop default media and then just add the stuff they want. If we know what that stuff they want is, that's what should be on the DVD. No, as that's the 'convenience' use case, which is less important than the 'essential' use case. What we need to identify is the stuff that offline users really need/want access to. The 'convenience' use case comes second; that's the stuff for people who could download it from repos, but might save a bit of time/bandwidth if it's on the DVD. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Thu, 2013-05-02 at 10:08 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: On May 2, 2013, at 6:40 AM, Bruno Wolff III br...@wolff.to wrote: This is pretty much what happened with CD images. Eventually this will change, but it isn't clear to me that this is the right time to make that change. CentOS 6 uses two DVD images. Apple, before dropping DVD's with new computers, went with two DVD's for a period, even though they had hardware that supported DVD/DL. There's precedent. If it's going to cause aneurisms figuring out what to drop, just use two images. It doesn't seem to be causing any aneurysms. There've been lots of suggestions for drops and no NOO DON'T DROP MY PRECIOUS THINGS! mails. It seems like a solve-able problem. FWIW I agree with the general trend of discussion so far: let's find things to drop that don't really need to be on the DVD so we can keep MATE and Cinnamon. You can install those from live images or from repos of course, just like anything else, but they are things it makes a deal of sense to provide for offline users - probably more so than many of the candidates for removal so far - and there is a substantial PR benefit to including them. Most press don't understand the ins and outs of DVDs vs. live images vs. repositories vs. net installs and so on. I recall only one F18 review that accurately nailed the status of Cinnamon and MATE in F18 - in the repositories, available from net install, but no live image and not on the DVDs. Aside from that lone hero, the reviewers who actually bothered to download and install Fedora usually said 'you can't install Cinnamon or MATE at install time' (because they used the DVD and didn't know how network installs work). The 'reviewers' who just went off the release notes said Cinnamon and MATE are included in Fedora 18! and then readers who didn't understand the subtleties downloaded the DVD, saw it wasn't there, and bashed us, the reviewers or both. So, yeah - whatever the theoreticals, there is a practical benefit to having Cinnamon and MATE on the DVD, and I agree with the general thrust of 'removing things whose users we can reasonably expect to usually have a network connection', as the *key* use case of the DVD (the case where something's presence on the DVD is a necessity rather than a convenience) is offline users. To address a couple of other points that have come up: the world certainly hasn't reached the point where we can target DL DVDs or huge USB sticks and forget about the SL DVD target, no. We still have significant usage of the DVD images, ambassadors can confirm this. You can write Fedora to USB sticks without destroying their existing contents; livecd-iso-to-disk and liveusb-creator can both do this. And the official size target for the DVD truly is the size of a writeable single-layer / single-side DVD; there is a benefit to keeping it under 4GB if possible (it's the maximum file size on a FAT32 partition, so some Windows users cannot download larger images), but we don't hold ourselves to it as a hard limit. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 05/02/2013 03:00 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: FWIW I agree with the general trend of discussion so far: let's find things to drop that don't really need to be on the DVD so we can keep MATE and Cinnamon. You can install those from live images or from repos of course, just like anything else, but they are things it makes a deal of sense to provide for offline users - probably more so than many of the candidates for removal so far - and there is a substantial PR benefit to including them. Most press don't understand the ins and outs of DVDs vs. live images vs. repositories vs. net installs and so on. I recall only one F18 review that accurately nailed the status of Cinnamon and MATE in F18 - in the repositories, available from net install, but no live image and not on the DVDs. Aside from that lone hero, the reviewers who actually bothered to download and install Fedora usually said 'you can't install Cinnamon or MATE at install time' (because they used the DVD and didn't know how network installs work). The 'reviewers' who just went off the release notes said Cinnamon and MATE are included in Fedora 18! and then readers who didn't understand the subtleties downloaded the DVD, saw it wasn't there, and bashed us, the reviewers or both. Would there be a way to preserve the choice without taking the space, e.g. by offering a skeleton network installation package with a big fat warning that the whole thing requires a network download? This approach is used a lot in Windowsland: the initial install.exe is a small file that downloads the rest. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Wed, 2013-05-01 at 17:44 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: REMOVED PACKAGES NAMESIZE authconfig-gtk106120 I am slightly worried about this removal. This means you won't be able to configure remote authentication methods with a GUI. Should it be added to comps somewhere? -- Tomas Mraz No matter how far down the wrong road you've gone, turn back. Turkish proverb -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Thu, 2013-05-02 at 16:30 -0400, Przemek Klosowski wrote: On 05/02/2013 03:00 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: FWIW I agree with the general trend of discussion so far: let's find things to drop that don't really need to be on the DVD so we can keep MATE and Cinnamon. You can install those from live images or from repos of course, just like anything else, but they are things it makes a deal of sense to provide for offline users - probably more so than many of the candidates for removal so far - and there is a substantial PR benefit to including them. Most press don't understand the ins and outs of DVDs vs. live images vs. repositories vs. net installs and so on. I recall only one F18 review that accurately nailed the status of Cinnamon and MATE in F18 - in the repositories, available from net install, but no live image and not on the DVDs. Aside from that lone hero, the reviewers who actually bothered to download and install Fedora usually said 'you can't install Cinnamon or MATE at install time' (because they used the DVD and didn't know how network installs work). The 'reviewers' who just went off the release notes said Cinnamon and MATE are included in Fedora 18! and then readers who didn't understand the subtleties downloaded the DVD, saw it wasn't there, and bashed us, the reviewers or both. Would there be a way to preserve the choice without taking the space, e.g. by offering a skeleton network installation package with a big fat warning that the whole thing requires a network download? This approach is used a lot in Windowsland: the initial install.exe is a small file that downloads the rest. We already provide that and have for years. It's the netinst.iso / boot.iso image. It just includes anaconda and pulls everything else from the repos. Since it uses the repos, this form of install lets you install any group in comps (and, using a kickstart, anything at all in the repos). Hell, you can boot the raw installer kernel/initrd pair and pull all your packages *plus anaconda* from the mirrors; this is how PXE installs work. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Fri, 2013-05-03 at 01:00 +0200, Tomas Mraz wrote: On Wed, 2013-05-01 at 17:44 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: REMOVED PACKAGES NAMESIZE authconfig-gtk106120 I am slightly worried about this removal. This means you won't be able to configure remote authentication methods with a GUI. Should it be added to comps somewhere? I suspect it's to do with the firstboot - initial-setup/gnome-initial-setup change. The thing to do would be to check if initial-setup / gnome-initial-setup can properly configure remote auth, without using authconfig-gtk. If they can't, that might be a problem we need to solve. That's just me reasoning it out, though, I haven't actually checked. Still, the thing to do would definitely be to grab Beta TC2 and do a test install and see if you can actually get remote auth working. We have not looked at that as part of validation testing yet. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 05/02/2013 07:08 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: We already provide that and have for years. It's the netinst.iso / boot.iso image. It just includes anaconda and pulls everything else from the repos. Mixed mode might be useful. Groups available in media would be listed first followed by groups available only via the repository in a separate section. So you can get the best of both worlds. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Thu, 2013-05-02 at 19:26 -0400, Rahul Sundaram wrote: On 05/02/2013 07:08 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: We already provide that and have for years. It's the netinst.iso / boot.iso image. It just includes anaconda and pulls everything else from the repos. Mixed mode might be useful. Groups available in media would be listed first followed by groups available only via the repository in a separate section. So you can get the best of both worlds. There's some newUI wrinkles there; for F18, the DVD media actually could not supplement the install from online repos (pre-newUI this was always possible). I think this is meant to be possible again in F19, but I didn't get around yet to checking if it is, and if so, how it's presented in UI terms. I don't *think* the package spoke has any code to split up the groups by whether they're on the medium you're installing from or not, but I could certainly be wrong. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On 05/02/2013 07:55 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: There's some newUI wrinkles there; for F18, the DVD media actually could not supplement the install from online repos (pre-newUI this was always possible). I think this is meant to be possible again in F19, but I didn't get around yet to checking if it is, and if so, how it's presented in UI terms. I don't *think* the package spoke has any code to split up the groups by whether they're on the medium you're installing from or not, but I could certainly be wrong. Without that split, it isn't really possible to make intelligent decisions about when to rely on the media and when to rely on network. It would also be somewhat tricky if you want to be able to choose to get the updates for the packages in the media during installation itself. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Thu, 2013-05-02 at 21:50 -0400, Rahul Sundaram wrote: On 05/02/2013 07:55 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: There's some newUI wrinkles there; for F18, the DVD media actually could not supplement the install from online repos (pre-newUI this was always possible). I think this is meant to be possible again in F19, but I didn't get around yet to checking if it is, and if so, how it's presented in UI terms. I don't *think* the package spoke has any code to split up the groups by whether they're on the medium you're installing from or not, but I could certainly be wrong. Without that split, it isn't really possible to make intelligent decisions about when to rely on the media and when to rely on network. Sure, as things stand (and stood in F17) we kinda assume that if you enable the remote repos, you don't really mind too much whether any particular thing you install comes from repos or media. It would also be somewhat tricky if you want to be able to choose to get the updates for the packages in the media during installation itself. Well, more 'impossible' than 'tricky', at least as it was in oldUI. You didn't get to choose; if there was an updated version in the repos, that was what you got. I think it'll be the same in 19, but I haven't checked yet. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Thu, 2013-05-02 at 19:14 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Thu, 2013-05-02 at 21:50 -0400, Rahul Sundaram wrote: On 05/02/2013 07:55 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: There's some newUI wrinkles there; for F18, the DVD media actually could not supplement the install from online repos (pre-newUI this was always possible). I think this is meant to be possible again in F19, but I didn't get around yet to checking if it is, and if so, how it's presented in UI terms. I don't *think* the package spoke has any code to split up the groups by whether they're on the medium you're installing from or not, but I could certainly be wrong. Without that split, it isn't really possible to make intelligent decisions about when to rely on the media and when to rely on network. Sure, as things stand (and stood in F17) we kinda assume that if you enable the remote repos, you don't really mind too much whether any particular thing you install comes from repos or media. It would also be somewhat tricky if you want to be able to choose to get the updates for the packages in the media during installation itself. Well, more 'impossible' than 'tricky', at least as it was in oldUI. You didn't get to choose; if there was an updated version in the repos, that was what you got. I think it'll be the same in 19, but I haven't checked yet. As is almost always the case, you have a lot more control over this in a kickstart install. With some obscure parameters to repo= , you can prioritize repos over other repos, and even specify that specific packages must come from particular repos. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
Yes I noticed that. One possibility would to so a separate server based distro like Ubuntu does, and maybe a developer one too ? Just a thought. On 1 May 2013 21:03, Bill Nottingham nott...@redhat.com wrote: The F19 DVD is currently *way* over size. (i686: 417MB, x86_64: 311MB). That's almost certainly more than can be fixed by trimming around the edges; we need to remove actual functionality that's on the DVD. Options include: 1) One/some of the desktops F19 DVD currently includes - GNOME - KDE - XFCE - LXDE - Sugar - MATE (new in F19) - Cinnamon (new in F19) 2) The web server environment Contains web server and web server runtimes (PHP, JBoss, Mongo, perl, python, rails) 3) The developer content creator workstation Contains the web server stuff above, Eclipse, developer tools, designer tools, Fedora packaging tools, and so on. Opinions? Bill -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 1:03 PM, Bill Nottingham nott...@redhat.com wrote: The F19 DVD is currently *way* over size. (i686: 417MB, x86_64: 311MB). That's almost certainly more than can be fixed by trimming around the edges; we need to remove actual functionality that's on the DVD. Options include: 1) One/some of the desktops F19 DVD currently includes - GNOME - KDE - XFCE - LXDE - Sugar - MATE (new in F19) - Cinnamon (new in F19) 2) The web server environment Contains web server and web server runtimes (PHP, JBoss, Mongo, perl, python, rails) 3) The developer content creator workstation Contains the web server stuff above, Eclipse, developer tools, designer tools, Fedora packaging tools, and so on. Opinions? Bill -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel In regards to MATE + Cinnamon: MATE + Cinnamon fit on F18 x86_64 DVD but not the i686 DVD. The i686 and x86_64 have different sizes (one reason was due to including the PAE and non PAE kernels). That being said Cinnamon IS broken in F19 but it is only 2 packages on top of Gnome 3.. cinnamon and muffin. We expect to have it working by release and upstream is working on a fix, in fact I made some progress last night and have Cinnamon 2D mode working. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=920320 Lots of other distros are dropping Cinnamon because of this. Let's not be THAT distro. Also after spending a lot of time the last few days trying to compose the MATE liveCD a lot of unneeded dependencies were being pulled. I think we should look at package dependencies. It seems that lots of unnecessary packages are being pulled when composing media. Just my experience over the last few days. Dan -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
Dan Mashal (dan.mas...@gmail.com) said: I think we should look at package dependencies. It seems that lots of unnecessary packages are being pulled when composing media. Here's everything new in the F19 DVD, sorted by size. I've dropped java-1.8.0-openjdk in the kickstart already, but that won't be enough. http://paste.fedoraproject.org/9849/36743327/ Bill -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 05/01/2013 04:21 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: Dan Mashal (dan.mas...@gmail.com) said: I think we should look at package dependencies. It seems that lots of unnecessary packages are being pulled when composing media. Here's everything new in the F19 DVD, sorted by size. I've dropped java-1.8.0-openjdk in the kickstart already, but that won't be enough. http://paste.fedoraproject.org/9849/36743327/ Bill I notice that both mariadb-server and community-mysql-server are on the list. Given that FESCo decided some time ago that the preferred version was going to be MariaDB (but that we were going to permit MySQL to remain in the repos under other maintainership), I'd say we should drop the community-mysql packages from the DVD. This should save us a respectable bit of space. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.13 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlGBfJIACgkQeiVVYja6o6NMdQCgqTDoFJiur0emqNiFSsvyeJpO uVkAoIFy8HDwLlb/OykFkcUplwJUpw1U =pSFx -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Bill Nottingham nott...@redhat.com wrote: Dan Mashal (dan.mas...@gmail.com) said: I think we should look at package dependencies. It seems that lots of unnecessary packages are being pulled when composing media. Here's everything new in the F19 DVD, sorted by size. I've dropped java-1.8.0-openjdk in the kickstart already, but that won't be enough. http://paste.fedoraproject.org/9849/36743327/ Bill -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Why is wayland being included? Last I checked we are still using X11. 42596 wayland-devel.x86_64 21216 libwayland-client-devel.x86_64 14860 libwayland-cursor.x86_64 7204libwayland-cursor-devel.x86_64 Thunderbird is new? Drop it. Let's use evolution. = 8847388 community-mysql-server.x86_64 -- ?? gnome-getting-started-docs.noarch -- is this really needed? Why doesn't Gnome 3 get docs online or something? = Quite a few devel packages as well. Dan -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 4:39 PM, Dan Mashal dan.mas...@gmail.com wrote: gnome-getting-started-docs.noarch -- is this really needed? Why doesn't Gnome 3 get docs online or something? It's entirely possible that someone who is downloading the DVD image intends to install on a machine that doesn't have a consistent network connection. In that case, offline documentation is very useful. -- Ben Cotton -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?
Thunderbird is new? Drop it. Hardly new since I've been using it on Fedora for 8 years now. bob smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
