Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Dridi Boukelmoune]

> Also, macOS is switching from bash to zsh (?) I don't know why.
> https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT208050

Probably because they stuck to an old version of bash to avoid the
GPLv3 re-licensing, or so I've been told. Maybe the version of bash
they use is going EOL as well.

Dridi
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Chris Murphy]

On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 9:10 AM  wrote:
>
>
> Surprise, apparently python3 is coming to macOS in some form (maybe
> only for developers? not sure?) so WebKit should be fine with switching
> to pytohn3 regardless.

My reading of the developer notes is they're dropping the inclusion of
python entirely and developers will just have to install it
themselves, most likely from Homebrew (3rd party repo and package
manager), who only offer python 3.7.4 currently.

https://developer.apple.com/documentation/macos_release_notes/macos_catalina_10_15_beta_3_release_notes

Also, macOS is switching from bash to zsh (?) I don't know why.
https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT208050



-- 
Chris Murphy
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[mcatanzaro]

Surprise, apparently python3 is coming to macOS in some form (maybe 
only for developers? not sure?) so WebKit should be fine with switching 
to pytohn3 regardless.


I don't think it's important to this discussion, just wanted to send a 
correction. I wasn't expecting this


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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Cătălin George Feștilă]

I already used Python 3.7.3 in Windows OS and is very good.


On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 8:20 PM Miro Hrončok  wrote:

> On 02. 07. 19 17:58, Peter Robinson wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 9:02 PM Miro Hrončok  wrote:
> >>
> >> On 01. 07. 19 16:21, Peter Robinson wrote:
> >>> On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 2:34 AM Miro Hrončok 
> wrote:
> 
>  On 28. 06. 19 0:51, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 at 18:49, Neal Gompa  > > wrote:
> >
> >
> >> What about postponing this change to F32? I'd prefer
> python2 to be
> >> retired and gone from the distro first, and the symlink and
> >> %python_provide definition only switched then. I think that
> having
> >> this middle state where python2 is available but python
> points to
> >> python3 for exactly one release will be more confusing that
> switching
> >> directly to the final state where python2 is gone and
> python simply
> >> means python3.
> >>
> >
> >   I think it makes sense to make the switch before we retire,
> because
> >   then people's expectations are changed ahead of time and they
> can
> >   adapt to The Future(TM).
> >
> >
> > Actually I think it makes more sense that F31 provides no
> /usr/bin/python. Then
> > a lot of things which depend on it can be found and fixed since they
> have not
> > adapted to the Future any other way.
> 
>  We've been actively forbidding packagers doing that for more than a
> year.
>  Most packages that still require /usr/bin/python are either:
> 
>  * FTBFS since Fedora 28 (and I will make sure we follow the
> policy this time
>  and finally kill those)
> 
>  or
> 
>  * willingly workarounded by the packagers who tend to ignore all
> our
>  recommendations (nothing we can really do here)
> 
>  Totally that is 10 runtime dependent packages and 64 buildtime.
> 
> 
>  If we take away /usr/bin/python and "python" provide, those things
> won't resolve.
> 
>  If we change it to Python 3, some of them might work, most of them
> probably
>  won't. Some of them are broken already (like
> 
>  $ (repoquery --repo=rawhide-source --whatrequires python; repoquery
>  --repo=rawhide-source --whatrequires python-unversioned-command;
> repoquery
>  --repo=rawhide-source --whatrequires /usr/bin/python) | pkgname |
> sort | uniq
>  audit
>  bibus
>  bitfrost
>  blitz
>  claws-mail
>  coan
>  crun
>  distro-info
>  distro-info-data
>  dracut-modules-olpc
>  dtrx
>  gcc
>  gnome-python2-desktop
>  graphite2
>  grass
>  gwebsockets
>  htop
>  hyperscan
>  cherrytree
>  chocolate-doom
>  json4s
>  kcov
>  libclc
>  libtaskotron
>  liquidwar
>  maxima
>  mchange-commons
>  mingw-qt5-qtdeclarative
>  mingw-wine-gecko
>  mongo-c-driver
>  mozc
>  offlineimap
>  olpc-contents
>  olpc-os-builder
>  perl-Plack
>  planner
>  python-rospkg
>  qtwebkit
>  qt5-qtdeclarative
>  sbt
>  seamonkey
>  sugar-base
>  sugar-castle
>  sugar-deducto
>  sugar-flip
>  sugar-jukebox
>  sugar-kuku
>  sugar-measure
>  sugar-pippy
>  sugar-srilanka
>  sugar-starchart
>  sugar-toolkit
>  sugar-yupana
>  swift-lang
>  tarantool
>  termy-qt
>  twitter-twemoji-fonts
>  uboot-tools
>  udis86
>  vdsm
>  vte
>  wesnoth
>  wine-mono
>  0ad
> 
>  $ (repoquery --repo=rawhide --whatrequires python; repoquery
> --repo=rawhide
>  --whatrequires python-unversioned-command; repoquery --repo=rawhide
>  --whatrequires /usr/bin/python) | pkgname | sort | uniq
>  gwebsockets
>  icaro
>  pyqt-mail-checker
>  qct
>  redhat-lsb-languages
>  resiprocate-turn-server-psql
>  sugar
>  sugar-toolkit
>  vdsm
>  vdsm-yajsonrpc
> >>>
> >>> I fixed the following up:
> >>> uboot-tools
> >>> gnome-python2-desktop
> >>> gwebsockets
> >>> sugar
> >>> sugar-base
> >>> sugar-castle
> >>> sugar-deducto
> >>> sugar-flip
> >>> sugar-jukebox
> >>> sugar-kuku
> >>> sugar-measure
> >>> sugar-pippy
> >>> sugar-srilanka
> >>> sugar-starchart
> >>> sugar-toolkit
> >>> sugar-yupana
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> >>
> >>> The following are FTB due to someone retiring Pyrex out from under
> >>> them without notifying me (there's been a number of py2 packages that
> >>> have had that happen) so they're going to take a bit longer.
> >>> bitfrost
> >>> dracut-modules-olpc
> >>> olpc-contents
> >>> olpc-os-builder
> >>
> >> I've notified you at least 3 times:
> >>
> >>
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel-annou...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/4LKL4NAQZOF6ETC62IKEP5KWGSI5PUNA/
> >>
> 

Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Miro Hrončok]

On 02. 07. 19 17:58, Peter Robinson wrote:

On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 9:02 PM Miro Hrončok  wrote:


On 01. 07. 19 16:21, Peter Robinson wrote:

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 2:34 AM Miro Hrončok  wrote:


On 28. 06. 19 0:51, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:



On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 at 18:49, Neal Gompa mailto:ngomp...@gmail.com>> wrote:


   > What about postponing this change to F32? I'd prefer python2 to be
   > retired and gone from the distro first, and the symlink and
   > %python_provide definition only switched then. I think that having
   > this middle state where python2 is available but python points to
   > python3 for exactly one release will be more confusing that switching
   > directly to the final state where python2 is gone and python simply
   > means python3.
   >

  I think it makes sense to make the switch before we retire, because
  then people's expectations are changed ahead of time and they can
  adapt to The Future(TM).


Actually I think it makes more sense that F31 provides no /usr/bin/python. Then
a lot of things which depend on it can be found and fixed since they have not
adapted to the Future any other way.


We've been actively forbidding packagers doing that for more than a year.
Most packages that still require /usr/bin/python are either:

* FTBFS since Fedora 28 (and I will make sure we follow the policy this time
and finally kill those)

or

* willingly workarounded by the packagers who tend to ignore all our
recommendations (nothing we can really do here)

Totally that is 10 runtime dependent packages and 64 buildtime.


If we take away /usr/bin/python and "python" provide, those things won't 
resolve.

If we change it to Python 3, some of them might work, most of them probably
won't. Some of them are broken already (like

$ (repoquery --repo=rawhide-source --whatrequires python; repoquery
--repo=rawhide-source --whatrequires python-unversioned-command; repoquery
--repo=rawhide-source --whatrequires /usr/bin/python) | pkgname | sort | uniq
audit
bibus
bitfrost
blitz
claws-mail
coan
crun
distro-info
distro-info-data
dracut-modules-olpc
dtrx
gcc
gnome-python2-desktop
graphite2
grass
gwebsockets
htop
hyperscan
cherrytree
chocolate-doom
json4s
kcov
libclc
libtaskotron
liquidwar
maxima
mchange-commons
mingw-qt5-qtdeclarative
mingw-wine-gecko
mongo-c-driver
mozc
offlineimap
olpc-contents
olpc-os-builder
perl-Plack
planner
python-rospkg
qtwebkit
qt5-qtdeclarative
sbt
seamonkey
sugar-base
sugar-castle
sugar-deducto
sugar-flip
sugar-jukebox
sugar-kuku
sugar-measure
sugar-pippy
sugar-srilanka
sugar-starchart
sugar-toolkit
sugar-yupana
swift-lang
tarantool
termy-qt
twitter-twemoji-fonts
uboot-tools
udis86
vdsm
vte
wesnoth
wine-mono
0ad

$ (repoquery --repo=rawhide --whatrequires python; repoquery --repo=rawhide
--whatrequires python-unversioned-command; repoquery --repo=rawhide
--whatrequires /usr/bin/python) | pkgname | sort | uniq
gwebsockets
icaro
pyqt-mail-checker
qct
redhat-lsb-languages
resiprocate-turn-server-psql
sugar
sugar-toolkit
vdsm
vdsm-yajsonrpc


I fixed the following up:
uboot-tools
gnome-python2-desktop
gwebsockets
sugar
sugar-base
sugar-castle
sugar-deducto
sugar-flip
sugar-jukebox
sugar-kuku
sugar-measure
sugar-pippy
sugar-srilanka
sugar-starchart
sugar-toolkit
sugar-yupana


Thanks.


The following are FTB due to someone retiring Pyrex out from under
them without notifying me (there's been a number of py2 packages that
have had that happen) so they're going to take a bit longer.
bitfrost
dracut-modules-olpc
olpc-contents
olpc-os-builder


I've notified you at least 3 times:

https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel-annou...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/4LKL4NAQZOF6ETC62IKEP5KWGSI5PUNA/
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel-annou...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/23I5LPSAYL3OFR5UNEKFLZKPGCRBLVYC/
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/X77IOA2RE3KADMMVPISYSESA3KYJ2UFR/


Do you cc: affected people on those? I was on PTO and traveling in the
window of the messages you link there so they probably got lost in the
million other devel@ and related emails, it's easy enough for them to
get lost if you don't have an explicit notification it's something you
should be paying attention too.


I bcc all the listed people. The lists don't like dozens of recipients.

--
Miro Hrončok
--
Phone: +420777974800
IRC: mhroncok
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Peter Robinson]

On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 9:02 PM Miro Hrončok  wrote:
>
> On 01. 07. 19 16:21, Peter Robinson wrote:
> > On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 2:34 AM Miro Hrončok  wrote:
> >>
> >> On 28. 06. 19 0:51, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 at 18:49, Neal Gompa  >>> > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>   > What about postponing this change to F32? I'd prefer python2 to be
> >>>   > retired and gone from the distro first, and the symlink and
> >>>   > %python_provide definition only switched then. I think that having
> >>>   > this middle state where python2 is available but python points to
> >>>   > python3 for exactly one release will be more confusing that 
> >>> switching
> >>>   > directly to the final state where python2 is gone and python 
> >>> simply
> >>>   > means python3.
> >>>   >
> >>>
> >>>  I think it makes sense to make the switch before we retire, because
> >>>  then people's expectations are changed ahead of time and they can
> >>>  adapt to The Future(TM).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Actually I think it makes more sense that F31 provides no 
> >>> /usr/bin/python. Then
> >>> a lot of things which depend on it can be found and fixed since they have 
> >>> not
> >>> adapted to the Future any other way.
> >>
> >> We've been actively forbidding packagers doing that for more than a year.
> >> Most packages that still require /usr/bin/python are either:
> >>
> >>* FTBFS since Fedora 28 (and I will make sure we follow the policy this 
> >> time
> >> and finally kill those)
> >>
> >> or
> >>
> >>* willingly workarounded by the packagers who tend to ignore all our
> >> recommendations (nothing we can really do here)
> >>
> >> Totally that is 10 runtime dependent packages and 64 buildtime.
> >>
> >>
> >> If we take away /usr/bin/python and "python" provide, those things won't 
> >> resolve.
> >>
> >> If we change it to Python 3, some of them might work, most of them probably
> >> won't. Some of them are broken already (like
> >>
> >> $ (repoquery --repo=rawhide-source --whatrequires python; repoquery
> >> --repo=rawhide-source --whatrequires python-unversioned-command; repoquery
> >> --repo=rawhide-source --whatrequires /usr/bin/python) | pkgname | sort | 
> >> uniq
> >> audit
> >> bibus
> >> bitfrost
> >> blitz
> >> claws-mail
> >> coan
> >> crun
> >> distro-info
> >> distro-info-data
> >> dracut-modules-olpc
> >> dtrx
> >> gcc
> >> gnome-python2-desktop
> >> graphite2
> >> grass
> >> gwebsockets
> >> htop
> >> hyperscan
> >> cherrytree
> >> chocolate-doom
> >> json4s
> >> kcov
> >> libclc
> >> libtaskotron
> >> liquidwar
> >> maxima
> >> mchange-commons
> >> mingw-qt5-qtdeclarative
> >> mingw-wine-gecko
> >> mongo-c-driver
> >> mozc
> >> offlineimap
> >> olpc-contents
> >> olpc-os-builder
> >> perl-Plack
> >> planner
> >> python-rospkg
> >> qtwebkit
> >> qt5-qtdeclarative
> >> sbt
> >> seamonkey
> >> sugar-base
> >> sugar-castle
> >> sugar-deducto
> >> sugar-flip
> >> sugar-jukebox
> >> sugar-kuku
> >> sugar-measure
> >> sugar-pippy
> >> sugar-srilanka
> >> sugar-starchart
> >> sugar-toolkit
> >> sugar-yupana
> >> swift-lang
> >> tarantool
> >> termy-qt
> >> twitter-twemoji-fonts
> >> uboot-tools
> >> udis86
> >> vdsm
> >> vte
> >> wesnoth
> >> wine-mono
> >> 0ad
> >>
> >> $ (repoquery --repo=rawhide --whatrequires python; repoquery --repo=rawhide
> >> --whatrequires python-unversioned-command; repoquery --repo=rawhide
> >> --whatrequires /usr/bin/python) | pkgname | sort | uniq
> >> gwebsockets
> >> icaro
> >> pyqt-mail-checker
> >> qct
> >> redhat-lsb-languages
> >> resiprocate-turn-server-psql
> >> sugar
> >> sugar-toolkit
> >> vdsm
> >> vdsm-yajsonrpc
> >
> > I fixed the following up:
> > uboot-tools
> > gnome-python2-desktop
> > gwebsockets
> > sugar
> > sugar-base
> > sugar-castle
> > sugar-deducto
> > sugar-flip
> > sugar-jukebox
> > sugar-kuku
> > sugar-measure
> > sugar-pippy
> > sugar-srilanka
> > sugar-starchart
> > sugar-toolkit
> > sugar-yupana
>
> Thanks.
>
> > The following are FTB due to someone retiring Pyrex out from under
> > them without notifying me (there's been a number of py2 packages that
> > have had that happen) so they're going to take a bit longer.
> > bitfrost
> > dracut-modules-olpc
> > olpc-contents
> > olpc-os-builder
>
> I've notified you at least 3 times:
>
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel-annou...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/4LKL4NAQZOF6ETC62IKEP5KWGSI5PUNA/
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel-annou...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/23I5LPSAYL3OFR5UNEKFLZKPGCRBLVYC/
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/X77IOA2RE3KADMMVPISYSESA3KYJ2UFR/

Do you cc: affected people on those? I was on PTO and traveling in the
window of the messages you link there so they probably got lost in the
million other devel@ and related emails, it's easy enough for them to
get lost if you don't have an explicit notification it's 

Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[José Abílio Matos]

On Monday, 1 July 2019 18.59.42 WEST Björn Persson wrote:
> Porting a Python 2 program to Python 3 is not like switching to another
> version of GCC. It's more like converting a C program into C++ – and
> even then, my gut feeling is that the minimal changes necessary to turn
> a typical C program into valid C++ would be fewer changes per line than
> the changes necessary to turn Python 2 into Python3.

My gut feeling was the same until I had to port code from python 2 to python 
3. Requiring at least python 3.5 and using tools like modernize or futurize to 
identify the parts where there could be problems reduced the work a lot.

Of course that good tests are a must since sometimes there are some issues 
slipping under the radar. But on the whole the experience was easier than 
expected and the resulting code has improved because of that.

Usual disclaimer: it depends on the code being ported and your mileage may 
vary. :-)
-- 
José Abílio

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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Miro Hrončok]

On 01. 07. 19 16:21, Peter Robinson wrote:

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 2:34 AM Miro Hrončok  wrote:


On 28. 06. 19 0:51, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:



On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 at 18:49, Neal Gompa mailto:ngomp...@gmail.com>> wrote:


  > What about postponing this change to F32? I'd prefer python2 to be
  > retired and gone from the distro first, and the symlink and
  > %python_provide definition only switched then. I think that having
  > this middle state where python2 is available but python points to
  > python3 for exactly one release will be more confusing that switching
  > directly to the final state where python2 is gone and python simply
  > means python3.
  >

 I think it makes sense to make the switch before we retire, because
 then people's expectations are changed ahead of time and they can
 adapt to The Future(TM).


Actually I think it makes more sense that F31 provides no /usr/bin/python. Then
a lot of things which depend on it can be found and fixed since they have not
adapted to the Future any other way.


We've been actively forbidding packagers doing that for more than a year.
Most packages that still require /usr/bin/python are either:

   * FTBFS since Fedora 28 (and I will make sure we follow the policy this time
and finally kill those)

or

   * willingly workarounded by the packagers who tend to ignore all our
recommendations (nothing we can really do here)

Totally that is 10 runtime dependent packages and 64 buildtime.


If we take away /usr/bin/python and "python" provide, those things won't 
resolve.

If we change it to Python 3, some of them might work, most of them probably
won't. Some of them are broken already (like

$ (repoquery --repo=rawhide-source --whatrequires python; repoquery
--repo=rawhide-source --whatrequires python-unversioned-command; repoquery
--repo=rawhide-source --whatrequires /usr/bin/python) | pkgname | sort | uniq
audit
bibus
bitfrost
blitz
claws-mail
coan
crun
distro-info
distro-info-data
dracut-modules-olpc
dtrx
gcc
gnome-python2-desktop
graphite2
grass
gwebsockets
htop
hyperscan
cherrytree
chocolate-doom
json4s
kcov
libclc
libtaskotron
liquidwar
maxima
mchange-commons
mingw-qt5-qtdeclarative
mingw-wine-gecko
mongo-c-driver
mozc
offlineimap
olpc-contents
olpc-os-builder
perl-Plack
planner
python-rospkg
qtwebkit
qt5-qtdeclarative
sbt
seamonkey
sugar-base
sugar-castle
sugar-deducto
sugar-flip
sugar-jukebox
sugar-kuku
sugar-measure
sugar-pippy
sugar-srilanka
sugar-starchart
sugar-toolkit
sugar-yupana
swift-lang
tarantool
termy-qt
twitter-twemoji-fonts
uboot-tools
udis86
vdsm
vte
wesnoth
wine-mono
0ad

$ (repoquery --repo=rawhide --whatrequires python; repoquery --repo=rawhide
--whatrequires python-unversioned-command; repoquery --repo=rawhide
--whatrequires /usr/bin/python) | pkgname | sort | uniq
gwebsockets
icaro
pyqt-mail-checker
qct
redhat-lsb-languages
resiprocate-turn-server-psql
sugar
sugar-toolkit
vdsm
vdsm-yajsonrpc


I fixed the following up:
uboot-tools
gnome-python2-desktop
gwebsockets
sugar
sugar-base
sugar-castle
sugar-deducto
sugar-flip
sugar-jukebox
sugar-kuku
sugar-measure
sugar-pippy
sugar-srilanka
sugar-starchart
sugar-toolkit
sugar-yupana


Thanks.


The following are FTB due to someone retiring Pyrex out from under
them without notifying me (there's been a number of py2 packages that
have had that happen) so they're going to take a bit longer.
bitfrost
dracut-modules-olpc
olpc-contents
olpc-os-builder


I've notified you at least 3 times:

https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel-annou...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/4LKL4NAQZOF6ETC62IKEP5KWGSI5PUNA/
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel-annou...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/23I5LPSAYL3OFR5UNEKFLZKPGCRBLVYC/
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/X77IOA2RE3KADMMVPISYSESA3KYJ2UFR/



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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Björn Persson]

Gerald Henriksen wrote:
> Nobody trying to compile a C program expects to have to use gcc9, they
> just expect to type in gcc.

Despite all its flaws, C is pretty good at backwards-compatibility. A
valid C99 program can be expected to work unchanged as C11. (A correct,
standard-compliant C program, that is. Not one that relies on undefined
behavior or similar craziness.) That is not so with Python. A perfectly
valid Python 2 program is not likely to work in a Python 3 interpreter,
unless it was intentionally written to be a polyglot.

Porting a Python 2 program to Python 3 is not like switching to another
version of GCC. It's more like converting a C program into C++ – and
even then, my gut feeling is that the minimal changes necessary to turn
a typical C program into valid C++ would be fewer changes per line than 
the changes necessary to turn Python 2 into Python3.

Developers are supposed to compile C programs with gcc and C++ programs
with g++, just like Python 2 programs need to be interpreted with
python2, and Python 3 programs with python3. Changing /usr/bin/python
to point to /usr/bin/python3 is similar to making /usr/bin/gcc a link
to /usr/bin/g++. The Python folks are trying to completely replace one
programming language with another, and it's no wonder that it's going
slowly.

There may be good arguments for why /usr/bin/python should survive the
removal of Python 2, but this comparison to GCC isn't one.

Björn Persson


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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Peter Robinson]

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 2:34 AM Miro Hrončok  wrote:
>
> On 28. 06. 19 0:51, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 at 18:49, Neal Gompa  > > wrote:
> >
> >
> >  > What about postponing this change to F32? I'd prefer python2 to be
> >  > retired and gone from the distro first, and the symlink and
> >  > %python_provide definition only switched then. I think that having
> >  > this middle state where python2 is available but python points to
> >  > python3 for exactly one release will be more confusing that switching
> >  > directly to the final state where python2 is gone and python simply
> >  > means python3.
> >  >
> >
> > I think it makes sense to make the switch before we retire, because
> > then people's expectations are changed ahead of time and they can
> > adapt to The Future(TM).
> >
> >
> > Actually I think it makes more sense that F31 provides no /usr/bin/python. 
> > Then
> > a lot of things which depend on it can be found and fixed since they have 
> > not
> > adapted to the Future any other way.
>
> We've been actively forbidding packagers doing that for more than a year.
> Most packages that still require /usr/bin/python are either:
>
>   * FTBFS since Fedora 28 (and I will make sure we follow the policy this time
> and finally kill those)
>
> or
>
>   * willingly workarounded by the packagers who tend to ignore all our
> recommendations (nothing we can really do here)
>
> Totally that is 10 runtime dependent packages and 64 buildtime.
>
>
> If we take away /usr/bin/python and "python" provide, those things won't 
> resolve.
>
> If we change it to Python 3, some of them might work, most of them probably
> won't. Some of them are broken already (like
>
> $ (repoquery --repo=rawhide-source --whatrequires python; repoquery
> --repo=rawhide-source --whatrequires python-unversioned-command; repoquery
> --repo=rawhide-source --whatrequires /usr/bin/python) | pkgname | sort | uniq
> audit
> bibus
> bitfrost
> blitz
> claws-mail
> coan
> crun
> distro-info
> distro-info-data
> dracut-modules-olpc
> dtrx
> gcc
> gnome-python2-desktop
> graphite2
> grass
> gwebsockets
> htop
> hyperscan
> cherrytree
> chocolate-doom
> json4s
> kcov
> libclc
> libtaskotron
> liquidwar
> maxima
> mchange-commons
> mingw-qt5-qtdeclarative
> mingw-wine-gecko
> mongo-c-driver
> mozc
> offlineimap
> olpc-contents
> olpc-os-builder
> perl-Plack
> planner
> python-rospkg
> qtwebkit
> qt5-qtdeclarative
> sbt
> seamonkey
> sugar-base
> sugar-castle
> sugar-deducto
> sugar-flip
> sugar-jukebox
> sugar-kuku
> sugar-measure
> sugar-pippy
> sugar-srilanka
> sugar-starchart
> sugar-toolkit
> sugar-yupana
> swift-lang
> tarantool
> termy-qt
> twitter-twemoji-fonts
> uboot-tools
> udis86
> vdsm
> vte
> wesnoth
> wine-mono
> 0ad
>
> $ (repoquery --repo=rawhide --whatrequires python; repoquery --repo=rawhide
> --whatrequires python-unversioned-command; repoquery --repo=rawhide
> --whatrequires /usr/bin/python) | pkgname | sort | uniq
> gwebsockets
> icaro
> pyqt-mail-checker
> qct
> redhat-lsb-languages
> resiprocate-turn-server-psql
> sugar
> sugar-toolkit
> vdsm
> vdsm-yajsonrpc

I fixed the following up:
uboot-tools
gnome-python2-desktop
gwebsockets
sugar
sugar-base
sugar-castle
sugar-deducto
sugar-flip
sugar-jukebox
sugar-kuku
sugar-measure
sugar-pippy
sugar-srilanka
sugar-starchart
sugar-toolkit
sugar-yupana

The following are FTB due to someone retiring Pyrex out from under
them without notifying me (there's been a number of py2 packages that
have had that happen) so they're going to take a bit longer.
bitfrost
dracut-modules-olpc
olpc-contents
olpc-os-builder

As much as you make some of your points above sound like it's
malicious packagers sometimes it's a lot more simple like "please stop
spamming me with pointless bugzilla updates and provide useful
information for over worked packagers", I thought most of the sugar
stuff had actually been fixed of the python-unversioned-command issues
but clearly some fell through the cracks, it's not intentional.
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek]

On Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 09:44:35AM +0200, Miro Hrončok wrote:
> On 01. 07. 19 9:02, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote:
> >>>On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 5:59 PM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
> >>> wrote:
> What about postponing this change to F32?
> >
> >I'm now convinced postponing is not appropriate.
> >
> >In the meantime, I decided to ask some non-developers (biologists actually)
> >for their opinion, and the majority favours having /usr/bin/python → python3.
> >The arguments given elsewhere in the thread for always having
> >*something* as /usr/bin/python are also quite convincing. I'm now
> >fully on-board with the Change.
> 
> Thanks Zbyszek,
> 
> if you have some quotes, examples or other relevant arguments, would
> you mind putting them on the wiki?

It wasn't really anything new. Just the general sentiment among users that
adapting to python3 is inevitable or already implemented.

Zbyszek
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Miro Hrončok]

On 01. 07. 19 9:02, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote:

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 5:59 PM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
 wrote:

What about postponing this change to F32?


I'm now convinced postponing is not appropriate.

In the meantime, I decided to ask some non-developers (biologists actually)
for their opinion, and the majority favours having /usr/bin/python → python3.
The arguments given elsewhere in the thread for always having
*something* as /usr/bin/python are also quite convincing. I'm now
fully on-board with the Change.


Thanks Zbyszek,

if you have some quotes, examples or other relevant arguments, would you mind 
putting them on the wiki?


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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek]

> >On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 5:59 PM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
> > wrote:
> >>What about postponing this change to F32?

I'm now convinced postponing is not appropriate.

In the meantime, I decided to ask some non-developers (biologists actually)
for their opinion, and the majority favours having /usr/bin/python → python3.
The arguments given elsewhere in the thread for always having
*something* as /usr/bin/python are also quite convincing. I'm now
fully on-board with the Change.

Zbyszek
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Mátyás Selmeci]

On 06/28/19 10:46, mcatanz...@gnome.org wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 10:42 AM, mcatanz...@gnome.org wrote:
>> If Fedora has /usr/bin/python, then at least we have a *chance* to make the 
>> scripts we care about work in both python2 and python3 (our current plan). 
>> Whereas without /usr/bin/python, we're really out of options. So I very much 
>> support /usr/bin/python -> /usr/bin/python3. It will cause some problems for 
>> us and we'll have a difficult transition period, but at least there will 
>> exist the possibility of transitioning.
> 
> Accidentally hit send too soon. I meant to add: /usr/bin/python -> 
> /usr/bin/python3 is better than all available alternatives. It's the only way 
> that /usr/bin/python remains in Fedora pointing to a supported python 
> interpreter. And that is the only chance that cross-platform python scripts 
> have to work without pain and suffering (beyond that of making the script 
> work with both python2 and python3). We're not python developers and just 
> want to run some python scripts; wrapping up all our python inside e.g. bash 
> scripts that start a virtualenv would be a sad end to this tale.

Thank you.  I work on multiple platforms so I make my utility scripts
work on both Python 2 and 3 and only use the standard library.  It
would be super annoying if I had to have multiple versions just because
of the shebang line.

-- 
Mátyás (Mat) Selmeci
Open Science Grid Software Team / Center for High-Throughput Computing
University of Wisconsin-Madison Department of Computer Sciences
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Martin Kolman]

On Thu, 2019-06-27 at 18:51 -0400, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 at 18:49, Neal Gompa  wrote:
> > > What about postponing this change to F32? I'd prefer python2 to be
> > 
> > > retired and gone from the distro first, and the symlink and
> > 
> > > %python_provide definition only switched then. I think that having
> > 
> > > this middle state where python2 is available but python points to
> > 
> > > python3 for exactly one release will be more confusing that switching
> > 
> > > directly to the final state where python2 is gone and python simply
> > 
> > > means python3.
> > 
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I think it makes sense to make the switch before we retire, because
> > 
> > then people's expectations are changed ahead of time and they can
> > 
> > adapt to The Future(TM).
> > 
> > 
> 
> Actually I think it makes more sense that F31 provides no /usr/bin/python. 
> Then a lot of things which depend on it can
> be found and fixed since they have not adapted to the Future any other way.
But it also efectively leaves a "hole" in the availability of the "python" 
command for a single Fedora release - that's
not good user experience IMHO.
>  
> 
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[mcatanzaro]

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 10:42 AM, mcatanz...@gnome.org wrote:
If Fedora has /usr/bin/python, then at least we have a *chance* to 
make the scripts we care about work in both python2 and python3 (our 
current plan). Whereas without /usr/bin/python, we're really out of 
options. So I very much support /usr/bin/python -> /usr/bin/python3. 
It will cause some problems for us and we'll have a difficult 
transition period, but at least there will exist the possibility of 
transitioning.


Accidentally hit send too soon. I meant to add: /usr/bin/python -> 
/usr/bin/python3 is better than all available alternatives. It's the 
only way that /usr/bin/python remains in Fedora pointing to a supported 
python interpreter. And that is the only chance that cross-platform 
python scripts have to work without pain and suffering (beyond that of 
making the script work with both python2 and python3). We're not python 
developers and just want to run some python scripts; wrapping up all 
our python inside e.g. bash scripts that start a virtualenv would be a 
sad end to this tale.


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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[mcatanzaro]

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 5:51 PM, Stephen John Smoogen 
 wrote:
Actually I think it makes more sense that F31 provides no 
/usr/bin/python. Then a lot of things which depend on it can be found 
and fixed since they have not adapted to the Future any other way.


It would mean we have no chance of maintaining python scripts that work 
for both macOS and Fedora. Fedora's preference doesn't win here: on 
macOS /usr/bin/python is python2, and there is no /usr/bin/python2 so 
we can't use that in shebangs, and none of that is going to change. So 
e.g. WebKit's scripts have to use #!/usr/bin/python or #!/usr/bin/env 
python no matter what Fedora wants. Trying to convince Apple to use a 
virtualenv for building WebKit isn't going to happen.


(Actually #!/usr/bin/python cannot be used ever, because that doesn't 
work on FreeBSD, so we use #!/usr/bin/env python and rely on 
downstreams to rewrite it to the #!/usr/bin/python version if required 
for packaging. Messy enough yet?)


Anyway, we were able to make WebKit build in Fedora without using 
/usr/bin/python by using a combination of (a) changing shebangs for 
Linux-specific scripts, and (b) executing the scripts through CMake 
otherwise, so the shebang doesn't matter. So it's not an issue that 
/usr/bin/python is unavailable during package builds. It's an issue for 
developers using Fedora who need to use unpackaged scripts that are 
required to work on macOS.


If Fedora has /usr/bin/python, then at least we have a *chance* to make 
the scripts we care about work in both python2 and python3 (our current 
plan). Whereas without /usr/bin/python, we're really out of options. So 
I very much support /usr/bin/python -> /usr/bin/python3. It will cause 
some problems for us and we'll have a difficult transition period, but 
at least there will exist the possibility of transitioning.


Without /usr/bin/python we'd probably have to tell developers to 
manually install as python2 in /usr/local so that scripts using 
/usr/bin/env python get python2... way worse.


Michael

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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Miro Hrončok]

On 26. 06. 19 19:57, Ben Cotton wrote:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python_means_Python3

== Summary ==
In package and command names, "Python" will mean "Python 3".

Users installing and running Python or Python packages without
specifying a version will get Python 3.

Running python will run python3. Running
pytest will run the Python 3 version of pytest, and
similarly for pydoc, pylint, etc.

dnf install python will install {{package|python3}}, and
similarly for other python-* provides, e.g. dnf
install python-requests will install
{{package|python3-requests}}.

This is the final preparation for
[https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/RetirePython2 the retirement
of Python 2 in Fedora 32] done in line with the
[https://github.com/python/peps/pull/989 soon to be finalized]
upstream recommendations.


Based on some questions and proposals that were repeated in the thread (thank 
you!), we have edited the proposal to include an "Alternative proposals" section:


https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python_means_Python3#Alternative_proposals


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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Rex Dieter]

Rex Dieter wrote:

> Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
> 
>> Actually I think it makes more sense that F31 provides no
>> /usr/bin/python. Then a lot of things which depend on it can be found and
>> fixed since they have not adapted to the Future any other way.
> 
> I agree.

Apologies for not fully reading the proposal to realize this is a new 
upstream recommendation.  I withdraw any objection.

-- Rex
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Rex Dieter]

Stephen John Smoogen wrote:

> Actually I think it makes more sense that F31 provides no /usr/bin/python.
> Then a lot of things which depend on it can be found and fixed since they
> have not adapted to the Future any other way.

I agree.

-- Rex

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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Stephen John Smoogen]

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 at 20:37, Gerald Henriksen  wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 16:09:58 -0400, you wrote:
>
> >On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 2:52 PM Dan Book  wrote:
> >>
> >> As an outsider to the Python community, not having any binary or
> package that responds to the expected name "python" would be a disaster.
> >>
> >Can you expand on that? As I understand it, most things that are
> >calling for "python" now are expecting that to be "python2". So when
> >it becomes "python3", they'll break anyway. So why perpetuate a
> >pattern that's not future-proof (for some values of "proof")?
>
> Because it's not about what some python code expects, it about what
> the human being using Fedora expects.
>
> Nobody trying to compile a C program expects to have to use gcc9, they
> just expect to type in gcc.
>
>
Thank you. My brain is not wired that way because I had worked in too many
environments where I have had to have multiple versions of tools for
customer reasons. Thus I have been seeing things myopically via my personal
experience ("Of course you want to have the exact version in the command,
how else can you test that you have code coverage???") I have to remember
that I am not usual consumer.



> Similarly someone sitting down to use a tutorial to learn Python is
> going to expect to type python and get something they can use,
> particularly going forward when Python3 really just become Python as
> Python2 fades from memory.
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Panu Matilainen]

On 6/28/19 2:48 AM, Gerald Henriksen wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 16:09:58 -0400, you wrote:


On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 2:52 PM Dan Book  wrote:


As an outsider to the Python community, not having any binary or package that responds to 
the expected name "python" would be a disaster.


Can you expand on that? As I understand it, most things that are
calling for "python" now are expecting that to be "python2". So when
it becomes "python3", they'll break anyway. So why perpetuate a
pattern that's not future-proof (for some values of "proof")?


Because it's not about what some python code expects, it about what
the human being using Fedora expects.

Nobody trying to compile a C program expects to have to use gcc9, they
just expect to type in gcc.


This.

On my home computer I was able to get rid of python-unversioned-command 
and symlinked ~/bin/python to /usr/bin/python3, so whenever I need 
python I get what I want and not the about-to-retire piece of history, 
ah the sanity.


On my work laptop I still run into needing /usr/bin/python -> python2 
every now and then, unfortunately. Eagerly waiting for the day when it 
starts pointing to python3 instead.


- Panu -
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Miro Hrončok]

On 28. 06. 19 10:22, Peter Robinson wrote:

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 5:20 PM Miro Hrončok  wrote:


On 27. 06. 19 17:15, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Thu, 2019-06-27 at 12:32 +0200, Miro Hrončok wrote:

On 26. 06. 19 20:07, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Wed, 2019-06-26 at 13:57 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python_means_Python3

== Summary ==
In package and command names, "Python" will mean "Python 3".

Users installing and running Python or Python packages without
specifying a version will get Python 3.

Running python will run python3.


Oh, man. I thought we'd decided against this in the past?


We did. Circumstances changed.


Out of interest, what circumstances?


Mostly date.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python_means_Python3#Benefit_to_Fedora

"The name 'Python' will not refer to software that will be unmaintained upstream
for most of Fedora 31's lifetime and retired from Fedora 32."

Also, before, we have decided to not do this, as it was against the upstream
recommendation. That recommendation is changing now as Python 2 approaches EOL.

See https://github.com/python/peps/pull/989


I'm worried
about the cost/benefit ratio on such a change.


What worries you do most about "the cost"?


I mean, generalized existential dread? :)

The most obvious is scripts with #!/usr/bin/python . OK, we can try and
find every single one in the distro and patch them (though I'm sure
some will get missed somehow)


Yes, we've already done that.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Move_usr_bin_python_into_separate_package
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Make_ambiguous_python_shebangs_error


but there will certainly be ones that
*aren't part of the distro* that get bitten by this.


There, you are correct. However, would we want "python" to mean Python 2
forever? Or do we want to phase things out slowly and make a designated point in
the future, where this is changed?


I suppose to me the big one with be pypi and what the expectation in
that community is around which version of python points to
/usr/bin/python, have they been running tests against the repositories
there and if it'll break things installed via pip.


In my experience pip installed packages generally handle shebangs well (e.g. 
they set the shebang to the pip's interpreter). Of course there might be some 
packages where this is not true, but the enormous adaptation of using Python 
virtual environments IMHO battle tested this for years.


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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Peter Robinson]

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 5:20 PM Miro Hrončok  wrote:
>
> On 27. 06. 19 17:15, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Thu, 2019-06-27 at 12:32 +0200, Miro Hrončok wrote:
> >> On 26. 06. 19 20:07, Adam Williamson wrote:
> >>> On Wed, 2019-06-26 at 13:57 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python_means_Python3
> 
>  == Summary ==
>  In package and command names, "Python" will mean "Python 3".
> 
>  Users installing and running Python or Python packages without
>  specifying a version will get Python 3.
> 
>  Running python will run python3.
> >>>
> >>> Oh, man. I thought we'd decided against this in the past?
> >>
> >> We did. Circumstances changed.
> >
> > Out of interest, what circumstances?
>
> Mostly date.
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python_means_Python3#Benefit_to_Fedora
>
> "The name 'Python' will not refer to software that will be unmaintained 
> upstream
> for most of Fedora 31's lifetime and retired from Fedora 32."
>
> Also, before, we have decided to not do this, as it was against the upstream
> recommendation. That recommendation is changing now as Python 2 approaches 
> EOL.
>
> See https://github.com/python/peps/pull/989
>
> >>> I'm worried
> >>> about the cost/benefit ratio on such a change.
> >>
> >> What worries you do most about "the cost"?
> >
> > I mean, generalized existential dread? :)
> >
> > The most obvious is scripts with #!/usr/bin/python . OK, we can try and
> > find every single one in the distro and patch them (though I'm sure
> > some will get missed somehow)
>
> Yes, we've already done that.
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Move_usr_bin_python_into_separate_package
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Make_ambiguous_python_shebangs_error
>
> > but there will certainly be ones that
> > *aren't part of the distro* that get bitten by this.
>
> There, you are correct. However, would we want "python" to mean Python 2
> forever? Or do we want to phase things out slowly and make a designated point 
> in
> the future, where this is changed?

I suppose to me the big one with be pypi and what the expectation in
that community is around which version of python points to
/usr/bin/python, have they been running tests against the repositories
there and if it'll break things installed via pip.
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Miro Hrončok]

On 28. 06. 19 0:51, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:



On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 at 18:49, Neal Gompa > wrote:



 > What about postponing this change to F32? I'd prefer python2 to be
 > retired and gone from the distro first, and the symlink and
 > %python_provide definition only switched then. I think that having
 > this middle state where python2 is available but python points to
 > python3 for exactly one release will be more confusing that switching
 > directly to the final state where python2 is gone and python simply
 > means python3.
 >

I think it makes sense to make the switch before we retire, because
then people's expectations are changed ahead of time and they can
adapt to The Future(TM).


Actually I think it makes more sense that F31 provides no /usr/bin/python. Then 
a lot of things which depend on it can be found and fixed since they have not 
adapted to the Future any other way.


We've been actively forbidding packagers doing that for more than a year.
Most packages that still require /usr/bin/python are either:

 * FTBFS since Fedora 28 (and I will make sure we follow the policy this time 
and finally kill those)


or

 * willingly workarounded by the packagers who tend to ignore all our 
recommendations (nothing we can really do here)


Totally that is 10 runtime dependent packages and 64 buildtime.


If we take away /usr/bin/python and "python" provide, those things won't 
resolve.

If we change it to Python 3, some of them might work, most of them probably 
won't. Some of them are broken already (like


$ (repoquery --repo=rawhide-source --whatrequires python; repoquery 
--repo=rawhide-source --whatrequires python-unversioned-command; repoquery 
--repo=rawhide-source --whatrequires /usr/bin/python) | pkgname | sort | uniq

audit
bibus
bitfrost
blitz
claws-mail
coan
crun
distro-info
distro-info-data
dracut-modules-olpc
dtrx
gcc
gnome-python2-desktop
graphite2
grass
gwebsockets
htop
hyperscan
cherrytree
chocolate-doom
json4s
kcov
libclc
libtaskotron
liquidwar
maxima
mchange-commons
mingw-qt5-qtdeclarative
mingw-wine-gecko
mongo-c-driver
mozc
offlineimap
olpc-contents
olpc-os-builder
perl-Plack
planner
python-rospkg
qtwebkit
qt5-qtdeclarative
sbt
seamonkey
sugar-base
sugar-castle
sugar-deducto
sugar-flip
sugar-jukebox
sugar-kuku
sugar-measure
sugar-pippy
sugar-srilanka
sugar-starchart
sugar-toolkit
sugar-yupana
swift-lang
tarantool
termy-qt
twitter-twemoji-fonts
uboot-tools
udis86
vdsm
vte
wesnoth
wine-mono
0ad

$ (repoquery --repo=rawhide --whatrequires python; repoquery --repo=rawhide 
--whatrequires python-unversioned-command; repoquery --repo=rawhide 
--whatrequires /usr/bin/python) | pkgname | sort | uniq

gwebsockets
icaro
pyqt-mail-checker
qct
redhat-lsb-languages
resiprocate-turn-server-psql
sugar
sugar-toolkit
vdsm
vdsm-yajsonrpc


Note that there are packages that actually need any /usr/bin/python to build, 
such as gcc. But I wouldn't bother with he buildtime deps much - either they 
build with py3 or they won't.


The runtime deps bother me, because they need to be fixed or retired either way. 
I'll happily retire them all (with big loud warnings before we do).


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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Miro Hrončok]

On 28. 06. 19 0:00, Neal Gompa wrote:

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 5:59 PM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
 wrote:


On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 01:57:13PM -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python_means_Python3

== Summary ==
In package and command names, "Python" will mean "Python 3".

Users installing and running Python or Python packages without
specifying a version will get Python 3.

Running python will run python3. Running
pytest will run the Python 3 version of pytest, and
similarly for pydoc, pylint, etc.

dnf install python will install {{package|python3}}, and
similarly for other python-* provides, e.g. dnf
install python-requests will install
{{package|python3-requests}}.

This is the final preparation for
[https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/RetirePython2 the retirement
of Python 2 in Fedora 32] done in line with the
[https://github.com/python/peps/pull/989 soon to be finalized]
upstream recommendations.


What about postponing this change to F32? I'd prefer python2 to be
retired and gone from the distro first, and the symlink and
%python_provide definition only switched then. I think that having
this middle state where python2 is available but python points to
python3 for exactly one release will be more confusing that switching
directly to the final state where python2 is gone and python simply
means python3.



I think it makes sense to make the switch before we retire, because
then people's expectations are changed ahead of time and they can
adapt to The Future(TM).


This is exactly the reason we want this in F31.

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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Gerald Henriksen]

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 16:09:58 -0400, you wrote:

>On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 2:52 PM Dan Book  wrote:
>>
>> As an outsider to the Python community, not having any binary or package 
>> that responds to the expected name "python" would be a disaster.
>>
>Can you expand on that? As I understand it, most things that are
>calling for "python" now are expecting that to be "python2". So when
>it becomes "python3", they'll break anyway. So why perpetuate a
>pattern that's not future-proof (for some values of "proof")?

Because it's not about what some python code expects, it about what
the human being using Fedora expects.

Nobody trying to compile a C program expects to have to use gcc9, they
just expect to type in gcc.

Similarly someone sitting down to use a tutorial to learn Python is
going to expect to type python and get something they can use,
particularly going forward when Python3 really just become Python as
Python2 fades from memory.
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Neal Gompa]

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 7:41 PM Stephen John Smoogen  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 at 18:49, Neal Gompa  wrote:
>>
>>
>> > What about postponing this change to F32? I'd prefer python2 to be
>> > retired and gone from the distro first, and the symlink and
>> > %python_provide definition only switched then. I think that having
>> > this middle state where python2 is available but python points to
>> > python3 for exactly one release will be more confusing that switching
>> > directly to the final state where python2 is gone and python simply
>> > means python3.
>> >
>>
>> I think it makes sense to make the switch before we retire, because
>> then people's expectations are changed ahead of time and they can
>> adapt to The Future(TM).
>>
>
> Actually I think it makes more sense that F31 provides no /usr/bin/python. 
> Then a lot of things which depend on it can be found and fixed since they 
> have not adapted to the Future any other way.
>

We've been throwing errors on using /usr/bin/python in packaged code
since Fedora 28, so I don't think it's necessary to wait like that.



-- 
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Elliott Sales de Andrade]

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 at 18:59,  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 4:34 PM, Neal Gompa  wrote:
> > This is because
> > in everything *except* Linux distributions, the unversioned name has
> > already switched over.
>
> Not in macOS.

System macOS is still Python 2, but new developers are not encouraged
to use it. Any reasonable Python macOS programmer uses conda or
virtualenv (or a wrapper like pyenv, pipenv, etc.), and a Python 3
environment will set python->python3.

-- 
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Stephen John Smoogen]

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 at 18:49, Neal Gompa  wrote:

>
> > What about postponing this change to F32? I'd prefer python2 to be
> > retired and gone from the distro first, and the symlink and
> > %python_provide definition only switched then. I think that having
> > this middle state where python2 is available but python points to
> > python3 for exactly one release will be more confusing that switching
> > directly to the final state where python2 is gone and python simply
> > means python3.
> >
>
> I think it makes sense to make the switch before we retire, because
> then people's expectations are changed ahead of time and they can
> adapt to The Future(TM).
>
>
Actually I think it makes more sense that F31 provides no /usr/bin/python.
Then a lot of things which depend on it can be found and fixed since they
have not adapted to the Future any other way.


-- 
Stephen J Smoogen.
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[mcatanzaro]

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 4:34 PM, Neal Gompa  wrote:

This is because
in everything *except* Linux distributions, the unversioned name has
already switched over.


Not in macOS.

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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Neal Gompa]

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 5:59 PM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
 wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 01:57:13PM -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python_means_Python3
> >
> > == Summary ==
> > In package and command names, "Python" will mean "Python 3".
> >
> > Users installing and running Python or Python packages without
> > specifying a version will get Python 3.
> >
> > Running python will run python3. Running
> > pytest will run the Python 3 version of pytest, and
> > similarly for pydoc, pylint, etc.
> >
> > dnf install python will install {{package|python3}}, and
> > similarly for other python-* provides, e.g. dnf
> > install python-requests will install
> > {{package|python3-requests}}.
> >
> > This is the final preparation for
> > [https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/RetirePython2 the retirement
> > of Python 2 in Fedora 32] done in line with the
> > [https://github.com/python/peps/pull/989 soon to be finalized]
> > upstream recommendations.
>
> What about postponing this change to F32? I'd prefer python2 to be
> retired and gone from the distro first, and the symlink and
> %python_provide definition only switched then. I think that having
> this middle state where python2 is available but python points to
> python3 for exactly one release will be more confusing that switching
> directly to the final state where python2 is gone and python simply
> means python3.
>

I think it makes sense to make the switch before we retire, because
then people's expectations are changed ahead of time and they can
adapt to The Future(TM).


-- 
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Neal Gompa]

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 4:58 PM Ben Cotton  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 2:52 PM Dan Book  wrote:
> >
> > As an outsider to the Python community, not having any binary or package 
> > that responds to the expected name "python" would be a disaster.
> >
> Can you expand on that? As I understand it, most things that are
> calling for "python" now are expecting that to be "python2". So when
> it becomes "python3", they'll break anyway. So why perpetuate a
> pattern that's not future-proof (for some values of "proof")?
>

The majority of the Python community writes Python 3 code pointing to
an unversioned shebang, even when it's Python 3 only. This is because
in everything *except* Linux distributions, the unversioned name has
already switched over. And OpenMandriva made the switch before us, and
that was not a terribly painful change like it was for Arch many years
earlier.

In fact, I would argue that the only mistake was in RHEL, where RHEL 8
did not ship with the default unversioned names that would point to
the Python 3 variants.



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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Charalampos Stratakis]

- Original Message -
> From: "Ben Cotton" 
> To: "Development discussions related to Fedora" 
> 
> Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 10:09:58 PM
> Subject: Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3
> 
> On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 2:52 PM Dan Book  wrote:
> >
> > As an outsider to the Python community, not having any binary or package
> > that responds to the expected name "python" would be a disaster.
> >
> Can you expand on that? As I understand it, most things that are
> calling for "python" now are expecting that to be "python2". So when
> it becomes "python3", they'll break anyway. So why perpetuate a
> pattern that's not future-proof (for some values of "proof")?

Depends on what you mean by calling "python". The biggest portion of python 
code floating around would be compatible with either both python2 and 3, or 
only with python3, with a few exceptions.

> 
> --
> Ben Cotton
> He / Him / His
> Fedora Program Manager
> Red Hat
> TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis
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-- 
Regards,

Charalampos Stratakis
Software Engineer
Python Maintenance Team, Red Hat
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek]

On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 01:57:13PM -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python_means_Python3
> 
> == Summary ==
> In package and command names, "Python" will mean "Python 3".
> 
> Users installing and running Python or Python packages without
> specifying a version will get Python 3.
> 
> Running python will run python3. Running
> pytest will run the Python 3 version of pytest, and
> similarly for pydoc, pylint, etc.
> 
> dnf install python will install {{package|python3}}, and
> similarly for other python-* provides, e.g. dnf
> install python-requests will install
> {{package|python3-requests}}.
> 
> This is the final preparation for
> [https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/RetirePython2 the retirement
> of Python 2 in Fedora 32] done in line with the
> [https://github.com/python/peps/pull/989 soon to be finalized]
> upstream recommendations.

What about postponing this change to F32? I'd prefer python2 to be
retired and gone from the distro first, and the symlink and
%python_provide definition only switched then. I think that having
this middle state where python2 is available but python points to
python3 for exactly one release will be more confusing that switching
directly to the final state where python2 is gone and python simply
means python3.

Zbyszek
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek]

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 04:09:58PM -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 2:52 PM Dan Book  wrote:
> >
> > As an outsider to the Python community, not having any binary or package 
> > that responds to the expected name "python" would be a disaster.
> >
> Can you expand on that? As I understand it, most things that are
> calling for "python" now are expecting that to be "python2". So when
> it becomes "python3", they'll break anyway. So why perpetuate a
> pattern that's not future-proof (for some values of "proof")?

While I'm wary of the proposed change, I think that this particular
avenue of criticism is misguided and we don't need to worry about
"future proofing".

Iiiif there's ever python4 (which isn't even on the horizon right
now), I think/hope that the way it is introduced will not repeat the
disastrous way that python3 was introduced, and the transition will be
more like the normal python 2.x→2.y and 3.x→3.y transitions, just with
a bigger set of changes. Python has the __future__ mechanism and
deprecation warnings, which can and should be used to phase in
changes. So I think we can safely assume that if python4.0 comes
around, we'll point the python symlink at it when we want it to be the
default, and we'll expect all packages in the distro to support
it. I.e. the python3.z→4.0 switch will not be substantially different
then the current 3.7→3.8 upgrade.

Zbyszek
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Ben Cotton]

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 2:52 PM Dan Book  wrote:
>
> As an outsider to the Python community, not having any binary or package that 
> responds to the expected name "python" would be a disaster.
>
Can you expand on that? As I understand it, most things that are
calling for "python" now are expecting that to be "python2". So when
it becomes "python3", they'll break anyway. So why perpetuate a
pattern that's not future-proof (for some values of "proof")?

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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Dan Book]

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 2:48 PM Miro Hrončok  wrote:

> On 27. 06. 19 18:49, Ben Cotton wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 12:06 PM Miro Hrončok 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> So I might ask: What's the benefit of not having an unversioned python
> at all?
> >>
> > Avoiding ambiguity. Admittedly, it's avoiding large future pain at the
> > cost of small-and-frequent current pain. I'm not sure it's Fedora's
> > place to drive that mindset shift, particularly if upstream is taking
> > the opposite approach.
>
> To be fair, upstream allows us to choose. If we decide that we want
> "python"
> command not to exists, it's a valid choice.
>
> As Python maintainers, we want to make it python3. If Fedora decides that
> removing it is a better way, we have the ability to do that.
>
> I'd argue that it brings more problems. Such as: Should there also be no
> "pip",
> no "pytest", no "pylint"... command? Or should we switch those to Python
> 3, but
> just have no "python" command? What happens if users do "dnf install
> python"?
> Should they get Python 3 or nothing? etc.
>
> Either way, we really **need** "python" to no longer be Python 2. There
> are
> still people "out there" who call Python 2 the "default Python" because
> that's
> what you get when you type "python".
>

As an outsider to the Python community, not having any binary or package
that responds to the expected name "python" would be a disaster.

-Dan
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Miro Hrončok]

On 27. 06. 19 20:13, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Thu, 2019-06-27 at 17:33 +0200, Miro Hrončok wrote:

There, you are correct. However, would we want "python" to mean Python 2
forever?


I don't honestly see the *harm* in this. That is what it has always
meant up until now, after all. That is probably what people expect it
to mean by this point. I always read "python" as "Python 2".

What is the benefit of this change, exactly?


The benefit is that people will eventually stop thinking this.

"python" (Python 2) will be unmaintained and dead couple weeks after Fedora 31 
is released. As the Python maintainers, we think that "python" being Python 2 
brings unfortunate expectations - that it is "the default Python".


We spent years and years trying to mark Python 2 as the "legacy" thing, but as 
long as we invoke Python 2 when users run "python" we cannot really expect that 
to happen. I believe that we should not run unsupported Python interpreter when 
users run "python".


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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Adam Williamson]

On Thu, 2019-06-27 at 17:33 +0200, Miro Hrončok wrote:
> There, you are correct. However, would we want "python" to mean Python 2 
> forever?

I don't honestly see the *harm* in this. That is what it has always
meant up until now, after all. That is probably what people expect it
to mean by this point. I always read "python" as "Python 2".

What is the benefit of this change, exactly?
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Miro Hrončok]

On 27. 06. 19 18:49, Ben Cotton wrote:

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 12:06 PM Miro Hrončok  wrote:


So I might ask: What's the benefit of not having an unversioned python at all?


Avoiding ambiguity. Admittedly, it's avoiding large future pain at the
cost of small-and-frequent current pain. I'm not sure it's Fedora's
place to drive that mindset shift, particularly if upstream is taking
the opposite approach.


To be fair, upstream allows us to choose. If we decide that we want "python" 
command not to exists, it's a valid choice.


As Python maintainers, we want to make it python3. If Fedora decides that 
removing it is a better way, we have the ability to do that.


I'd argue that it brings more problems. Such as: Should there also be no "pip", 
no "pytest", no "pylint"... command? Or should we switch those to Python 3, but 
just have no "python" command? What happens if users do "dnf install python"? 
Should they get Python 3 or nothing? etc.


Either way, we really **need** "python" to no longer be Python 2. There are 
still people "out there" who call Python 2 the "default Python" because that's 
what you get when you type "python".


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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Ben Cotton]

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 12:06 PM Miro Hrončok  wrote:
>
> So I might ask: What's the benefit of not having an unversioned python at all?
>
Avoiding ambiguity. Admittedly, it's avoiding large future pain at the
cost of small-and-frequent current pain. I'm not sure it's Fedora's
place to drive that mindset shift, particularly if upstream is taking
the opposite approach.


-- 
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He / Him / His
Fedora Program Manager
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TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Miro Hrončok]

On 27. 06. 19 17:57, Ben Cotton wrote:

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 10:10 AM Miro Hrončok  wrote:


No, we keep everything called python3, we just provide the "python" name.
With python2 -> python3, one of the problems was that everything was just called
"python" before. We are not proposing to start doing that again. All packages
still need to eb called python3-foo, ale package still need to use python3-foo
dependencies and all packages still need to invoke "python3" explicitly.


But if everything should refer to python3 explicitly, what's the
benefit of having the unversioned Python? I understand why it's better
to have python mean python3 instead of python2, but I don't understand
why it's better than not having it.


It's easier for the users, especially beginner Python developers or data 
scientists.

$ python
bash: python: command not found

Oh right!

$ sudo dnf install python
No match for argument: python
Error: Unable to find a match

Oh well?

Fedora is equipped with fully operational, ready to use and develop on Python 
interpreter, why not let people find it?


So I might ask: What's the benefit of not having an unversioned python at all?

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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Ben Cotton]

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 10:10 AM Miro Hrončok  wrote:
>
> No, we keep everything called python3, we just provide the "python" name.
> With python2 -> python3, one of the problems was that everything was just 
> called
> "python" before. We are not proposing to start doing that again. All packages
> still need to eb called python3-foo, ale package still need to use python3-foo
> dependencies and all packages still need to invoke "python3" explicitly.
>
But if everything should refer to python3 explicitly, what's the
benefit of having the unversioned Python? I understand why it's better
to have python mean python3 instead of python2, but I don't understand
why it's better than not having it.

-- 
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He / Him / His
Fedora Program Manager
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[stan via devel]

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 16:09:07 +0200
Miro Hrončok  wrote:

> No, we keep everything called python3, we just provide the "python"
> name. With python2 -> python3, one of the problems was that
> everything was just called "python" before. We are not proposing to
> start doing that again. All packages still need to eb called
> python3-foo, ale package still need to use python3-foo dependencies
> and all packages still need to invoke "python3" explicitly.
> 
> If Python 4 ever happens, it's going to be a problem one way or
> another, this doesn't make it nay more complicated.

Thanks for the explanation.
 
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Miro Hrončok]

On 27. 06. 19 17:15, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Thu, 2019-06-27 at 12:32 +0200, Miro Hrončok wrote:

On 26. 06. 19 20:07, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Wed, 2019-06-26 at 13:57 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python_means_Python3

== Summary ==
In package and command names, "Python" will mean "Python 3".

Users installing and running Python or Python packages without
specifying a version will get Python 3.

Running python will run python3.


Oh, man. I thought we'd decided against this in the past?


We did. Circumstances changed.


Out of interest, what circumstances?


Mostly date.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python_means_Python3#Benefit_to_Fedora

"The name 'Python' will not refer to software that will be unmaintained upstream 
for most of Fedora 31's lifetime and retired from Fedora 32."


Also, before, we have decided to not do this, as it was against the upstream 
recommendation. That recommendation is changing now as Python 2 approaches EOL.


See https://github.com/python/peps/pull/989


I'm worried
about the cost/benefit ratio on such a change.


What worries you do most about "the cost"?


I mean, generalized existential dread? :)

The most obvious is scripts with #!/usr/bin/python . OK, we can try and
find every single one in the distro and patch them (though I'm sure
some will get missed somehow)


Yes, we've already done that.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Move_usr_bin_python_into_separate_package
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Make_ambiguous_python_shebangs_error


but there will certainly be ones that
*aren't part of the distro* that get bitten by this.


There, you are correct. However, would we want "python" to mean Python 2 
forever? Or do we want to phase things out slowly and make a designated point in 
the future, where this is changed?


Note that users and sysadmins can change the meaning of "python", see:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python_means_Python3#User_Experience


But yeah, I don't have an itemized list of things that are going to
break or anything. I wish I did!


That would be nice.

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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Adam Williamson]

On Thu, 2019-06-27 at 12:32 +0200, Miro Hrončok wrote:
> On 26. 06. 19 20:07, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Wed, 2019-06-26 at 13:57 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:
> > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python_means_Python3
> > > 
> > > == Summary ==
> > > In package and command names, "Python" will mean "Python 3".
> > > 
> > > Users installing and running Python or Python packages without
> > > specifying a version will get Python 3.
> > > 
> > > Running python will run python3.
> > 
> > Oh, man. I thought we'd decided against this in the past?
> 
> We did. Circumstances changed.

Out of interest, what circumstances?

> > I'm worried
> > about the cost/benefit ratio on such a change.
> 
> What worries you do most about "the cost"?

I mean, generalized existential dread? :)

The most obvious is scripts with #!/usr/bin/python . OK, we can try and
find every single one in the distro and patch them (though I'm sure
some will get missed somehow) but there will certainly be ones that
*aren't part of the distro* that get bitten by this.

But yeah, I don't have an itemized list of things that are going to
break or anything. I wish I did!
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Miro Hrončok]

On 27. 06. 19 16:02, stan via devel wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 12:32:26 +0200
Miro Hrončok  wrote:


On 26. 06. 19 20:07, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Wed, 2019-06-26 at 13:57 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python_means_Python3

== Summary ==
In package and command names, "Python" will mean "Python 3".

Users installing and running Python or Python packages without
specifying a version will get Python 3.

Running python will run python3.


Oh, man. I thought we'd decided against this in the past?


We did. Circumstances changed.


I'm worried
about the cost/benefit ratio on such a change.


What worries you do most about "the cost"?


Wouldn't this mean that when python4 is released, there is a replay of
the python2 -> python3 transition experience?


No, we keep everything called python3, we just provide the "python" name.
With python2 -> python3, one of the problems was that everything was just called 
"python" before. We are not proposing to start doing that again. All packages 
still need to eb called python3-foo, ale package still need to use python3-foo 
dependencies and all packages still need to invoke "python3" explicitly.


If Python 4 ever happens, it's going to be a problem one way or another, this 
doesn't make it nay more complicated.


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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[stan via devel]

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 12:32:26 +0200
Miro Hrončok  wrote:

> On 26. 06. 19 20:07, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Wed, 2019-06-26 at 13:57 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:  
> >> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python_means_Python3
> >>
> >> == Summary ==
> >> In package and command names, "Python" will mean "Python 3".
> >>
> >> Users installing and running Python or Python packages without
> >> specifying a version will get Python 3.
> >>
> >> Running python will run python3.  
> > 
> > Oh, man. I thought we'd decided against this in the past?  
> 
> We did. Circumstances changed.
> 
> > I'm worried
> > about the cost/benefit ratio on such a change.  
> 
> What worries you do most about "the cost"?

Wouldn't this mean that when python4 is released, there is a replay of
the python2 -> python3 transition experience?
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Miro Hrončok]

On 26. 06. 19 20:07, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Wed, 2019-06-26 at 13:57 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python_means_Python3

== Summary ==
In package and command names, "Python" will mean "Python 3".

Users installing and running Python or Python packages without
specifying a version will get Python 3.

Running python will run python3.


Oh, man. I thought we'd decided against this in the past?


We did. Circumstances changed.


I'm worried
about the cost/benefit ratio on such a change.


What worries you do most about "the cost"?

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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Adam Williamson]

On Wed, 2019-06-26 at 21:13 +0100, José Abílio Matos wrote:
> On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 19.07.27 WEST Adam Williamson wrote:
> > Oh, man. I thought we'd decided against this in the past? I'm worried
> > about the cost/benefit ratio on such a change.
> 
> If this were only related with python I would agree with you.
> 
> Yet this also applies to lots of other tools like ipython and probably it 
> could be excluded from this but programs (a development IDE in this case) 
> like 
> spyder also have the * suffix (I am not used to curse but I think that I 
> could use an exception for this).
> 
> It is really, really, annoying to have to type/remember an extra suffix when 
> there are no other options available.
> 
> So even although you have a point all those cases, to me, look a lot like the 
> paper cuts they are very but they really hurt. :-)

That doesn't seem relevant; there's no reason renaming them has to go
together.
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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[José Abílio Matos]

On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 19.07.27 WEST Adam Williamson wrote:
> Oh, man. I thought we'd decided against this in the past? I'm worried
> about the cost/benefit ratio on such a change.

If this were only related with python I would agree with you.

Yet this also applies to lots of other tools like ipython and probably it 
could be excluded from this but programs (a development IDE in this case) like 
spyder also have the * suffix (I am not used to curse but I think that I 
could use an exception for this).

It is really, really, annoying to have to type/remember an extra suffix when 
there are no other options available.

So even although you have a point all those cases, to me, look a lot like the 
paper cuts they are very but they really hurt. :-)

Regards,
-- 
José Abílio

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Re: Fedora 31 System-Wide Change proposal: Python means Python3

[Adam Williamson]

On Wed, 2019-06-26 at 13:57 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python_means_Python3
> 
> == Summary ==
> In package and command names, "Python" will mean "Python 3".
> 
> Users installing and running Python or Python packages without
> specifying a version will get Python 3.
> 
> Running python will run python3.

Oh, man. I thought we'd decided against this in the past? I'm worried
about the cost/benefit ratio on such a change.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
http://www.happyassassin.net
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