Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 04:51 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote: Cosimo, can you please also make sure that the Close button gets keyboard focus automatically after I click on Try Fedora? I now fixed this here [1], but it will need to be applied to the copy of that code that lives in anaconda now. [1] https://github.com/cosimoc/fedora-welcome/commit/37856334485c6bd1a6fdfd830ae9a2daed19da4c Cosimo You haven't posted that to anaconda I guess? Because it's not fixed in F17 TC6. Does it make sense to keep the code on github? Using anaconda repo as an upstream might be a better choice. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On 05/16/2012 03:48 PM, Kamil Paral wrote: On 05/09/2012 09:34 PM, Cosimo Cecchi wrote: On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 04:51 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote: Cosimo, can you please also make sure that the Close button gets keyboard focus automatically after I click on Try Fedora? I now fixed this here [1], but it will need to be applied to the copy of that code that lives in anaconda now. You haven't posted that to anaconda I guess? Because it's not fixed in F17 TC6. Does it make sense to keep the code on github? Using anaconda repo as an upstream might be a better choice. We've been in the Final freeze starting from 2012-05-07; only fixes to bugs that are release blockers (or NTH fixes) can get included in the final media. Kamil, if you want this included, I'd say you would have to first convince QA that this is worth pulling in through the freezes. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:SOP_blocker_bug_process http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/17/Schedule -- Kalev -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Wed, 2012-05-16 at 17:04 +0300, Kalev Lember wrote: On 05/16/2012 03:48 PM, Kamil Paral wrote: On 05/09/2012 09:34 PM, Cosimo Cecchi wrote: On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 04:51 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote: Cosimo, can you please also make sure that the Close button gets keyboard focus automatically after I click on Try Fedora? I now fixed this here [1], but it will need to be applied to the copy of that code that lives in anaconda now. You haven't posted that to anaconda I guess? Because it's not fixed in F17 TC6. Does it make sense to keep the code on github? Using anaconda repo as an upstream might be a better choice. We've been in the Final freeze starting from 2012-05-07; only fixes to bugs that are release blockers (or NTH fixes) can get included in the final media. Kamil, if you want this included, I'd say you would have to first convince QA that this is worth pulling in through the freezes. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:SOP_blocker_bug_process http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/17/Schedule Kamil IS QA. (In the movie, coming this summer...) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Fri, 2012-05-04 at 10:31 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote: Cosimo, can you please make sure the whole window can be closed easily just by pressing the Escape key? That will help really help those of us who run LiveCDs many times per day, and it will not hurt other people in any way. Okay, I added support for this in git now. Cosimo, can you please also make sure that the Close button gets keyboard focus automatically after I click on Try Fedora? -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
The one complaint I still have is that the window is really huge. I mean, it's taking up, what, 80% of the desktop real estate? That is just perfect, it's the welcome screen. It should receive complete attention. In Ubuntu there are even no panels/widgets shown until you make the selection. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On May 9, 2012, at 2:53 AM, Kamil Paral wrote: That is just perfect, it's the welcome screen. It should receive complete attention. In Ubuntu there are even no panels/widgets shown until you make the selection. Well I find it intrusive rather than welcoming, but this is not a hill I'm going to die on. Chris Murphy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 04:51 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote: Cosimo, can you please also make sure that the Close button gets keyboard focus automatically after I click on Try Fedora? I now fixed this here [1], but it will need to be applied to the copy of that code that lives in anaconda now. [1] https://github.com/cosimoc/fedora-welcome/commit/37856334485c6bd1a6fdfd830ae9a2daed19da4c Cosimo -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On 04/27/2012 09:58 AM, Jared K. Smith wrote: What can we do in the *near* term to make it easier for people to find the Install to Hard Drive option from the LiveCD? It seems to me that the main objection against a prominent 'install to disk' button is that it is not part of a normal desktop workflow---if someone would just routinely use a Live CD, it seems rude to show them an irrelevant 'install' button. A good time and place to offer an 'install' option might be on startup (e.g. via a notification popup), and on shutdown (by an 'install' menu option next to 'reboot', and by another popup notifification 'you are about to shut down the system; do you want to permanently install to disk?') -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On May 8, 2012, at 10:43 AM, Przemek Klosowski wrote: It seems to me that the main objection against a prominent 'install to disk' button is that it is not part of a normal desktop workflow---if someone would just routinely use a Live CD, it seems rude to show them an irrelevant 'install' button. I agree, but I'm willing to let it go for F17. The one complaint I still have is that the window is really huge. I mean, it's taking up, what, 80% of the desktop real estate? A good time and place to offer an 'install' option might be on startup (e.g. via a notification popup), and on shutdown (by an 'install' menu option next to 'reboot', and by another popup notifification 'you are about to shut down the system; do you want to permanently install to disk?') I dunno. I think if there are concerns by the anaconda team about the machine state for running from within a live session, that state is even less known on shutdown than on startup. I'd sooner encourage a reboot. Another reason why I prefer the options: Live vs Install, at either bootloader menu or login. Chris Murphy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
Dne 3.5.2012 22:22, Cosimo Cecchi napsal(a): Hi all, Yesterday night I noticed an IRC conversation on #fedora-desktop about this, and suggested that an actual window would be a lot better than a notification. Kalev, Matthias and the people there agreed with me, so I went ahead and wrote some code that does just that [1]. Screenshots can be found here [2] [3]. I showed this today to Matthias and other people in the RH office, and the reception was good; people agree it's a good improvement over the proposed notification for F17. The text in the window comes from the result of this thread's discussion. What do you think? [1] https://github.com/cosimoc/fedora-welcome [2] http://i.imgur.com/8vRcO.png [3] http://i.imgur.com/gF0UJ.png Please note that there was some resistance against proposals like this ([1] just for example). I prefer the notification. Vit [1] http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-April/165280.html -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Fri, 2012-05-04 at 12:50 +0700, Michel Alexandre Salim wrote: On 04/27/2012 08:58 PM, Jared K. Smith wrote: On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 9:50 AM, Colin Walters walt...@verbum.org wrote: The whole thing is clearly a mess that needs some high level streamlining, from the entire process of download from web page (or receive CD from friend) to the on-disk install first boot. While I certainly wouldn't disagree with this statement, let's not let perfect get in the way of better here. What can we do in the *near* term to make it easier for people to find the Install to Hard Drive option from the LiveCD? How about installing the Dock extension on the liveuser account, and configuring it to *not* auto-hide? That way we get a solution that a) many users use anyway b) is aesthetically pleasing I don't see the point of making proposals like this which it's quite clear have absolutely no chance of happening. Desktop team has already stated clearly that they won't set up extensions as default configuration. Continuing to 'suggest' that they do is only likely to rile them up and start another of those long boring argumentative threads that have no purpose... -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
Perhaps he was just not aware of these objections. Although I could not speak for him but it's at least a possible explanation for the proposal. Johannes On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Fri, 2012-05-04 at 12:50 +0700, Michel Alexandre Salim wrote: On 04/27/2012 08:58 PM, Jared K. Smith wrote: On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 9:50 AM, Colin Walters walt...@verbum.org wrote: The whole thing is clearly a mess that needs some high level streamlining, from the entire process of download from web page (or receive CD from friend) to the on-disk install first boot. While I certainly wouldn't disagree with this statement, let's not let perfect get in the way of better here. What can we do in the *near* term to make it easier for people to find the Install to Hard Drive option from the LiveCD? How about installing the Dock extension on the liveuser account, and configuring it to *not* auto-hide? That way we get a solution that a) many users use anyway b) is aesthetically pleasing I don't see the point of making proposals like this which it's quite clear have absolutely no chance of happening. Desktop team has already stated clearly that they won't set up extensions as default configuration. Continuing to 'suggest' that they do is only likely to rile them up and start another of those long boring argumentative threads that have no purpose... -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
Hey,
On Thu, 2012-05-03 at 18:15 -0400, Ray Strode wrote:
Looking I see this:
// provided by the 'anaconda' package
anacondaApp = Gio.DesktopAppInfo.new('anaconda.desktop');
if (!anacondaApp)
anacondaApp = Gio.DesktopAppInfo.new('liveinst.desktop');
I think you only want liveinst.desktop and not anaconda.desktop.
Minimally, you need to swap them so liveinst.desktop gets run by
default.
Yeah good point - I copied that code from Kalev's notification, but it
seems /usr/share/applications/anaconda.desktop is not provided by any
package in my F17, so I now just removed it.
Cosimo
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Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
Hey again,
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 9:19 AM, Cosimo Cecchi cosi...@gnome.org wrote:
// provided by the 'anaconda' package
anacondaApp = Gio.DesktopAppInfo.new('anaconda.desktop');
if (!anacondaApp)
anacondaApp = Gio.DesktopAppInfo.new('liveinst.desktop');
I think you only want liveinst.desktop and not anaconda.desktop.
Minimally, you need to swap them so liveinst.desktop gets run by
default.
Yeah good point - I copied that code from Kalev's notification, but it
seems /usr/share/applications/anaconda.desktop is not provided by any
package in my F17, so I now just removed it.
Sorry to give you bad advice, I was totally wrong.
We do this in the kickstart file:
mv /usr/share/applications/liveinst.desktop
/usr/share/applications/anaconda.desktop
I believe we do that so the WM_CLASS matches.
My misguided messages was because I was worried anaconda was getting
run instead of /usr/sbin/liveinst
--Ray
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Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
Hi all, Yesterday night I noticed an IRC conversation on #fedora-desktop about this, and suggested that an actual window would be a lot better than a notification. Kalev, Matthias and the people there agreed with me, so I went ahead and wrote some code that does just that [1]. Screenshots can be found here [2] [3]. I showed this today to Matthias and other people in the RH office, and the reception was good; people agree it's a good improvement over the proposed notification for F17. The text in the window comes from the result of this thread's discussion. What do you think? [1] https://github.com/cosimoc/fedora-welcome [2] http://i.imgur.com/8vRcO.png [3] http://i.imgur.com/gF0UJ.png Cosimo, can you please make sure the whole window can be closed easily just by pressing the Escape key? That will help really help those of us who run LiveCDs many times per day, and it will not hurt other people in any way. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
Is there enough time to set up project in transifex (or whatever is Fedora using) and have this translated before F17 release? Perhaps we can. Not sure if there's enough time for that. What's the use case for translations? I'll note that there's no way to select the language in the GDM login screen, so everyone using the official media will see the untranslated welcome screen at least once, before they manage to change the language in system settings. Do we spin any localized live media? There are kickstart files for this in spin-kickstarts repo, are they actually used? Good call. I thought people could choose language in the isolinux menu before boot. They can't. So maybe we don't need any translations at all. It's weird though. Do we really have no localized livecds at all? -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Fri, 2012-05-04 at 10:31 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote: Cosimo, can you please make sure the whole window can be closed easily just by pressing the Escape key? That will help really help those of us who run LiveCDs many times per day, and it will not hurt other people in any way. Okay, I added support for this in git now. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
Kamil Paral (kpa...@redhat.com) said: Good call. I thought people could choose language in the isolinux menu before boot. They can't. So maybe we don't need any translations at all. It's weird though. Do we really have no localized livecds at all? They're in the l10n subdir of spin-kickstarts - each of those has a particular language hardcoded. Bill -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Fri, 2012-05-04 at 10:51 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote: Good call. I thought people could choose language in the isolinux menu before boot. They can't. So maybe we don't need any translations at all. It's weird though. Do we really have no localized livecds at all? We don't ship any as official releases. We used to run gdm with a timeout on live images expressly so people could pick a non-English language before logging in. Then gdm lost the ability to set language and so there was no way to do it any more. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Fri, 2012-05-04 at 17:06 +0100, Adam Williamson wrote: On Fri, 2012-05-04 at 10:51 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote: Good call. I thought people could choose language in the isolinux menu before boot. They can't. So maybe we don't need any translations at all. It's weird though. Do we really have no localized livecds at all? We don't ship any as official releases. We used to run gdm with a timeout on live images expressly so people could pick a non-English language before logging in. Then gdm lost the ability to set language and so there was no way to do it any more. We may bring the language selection back for f18, in a different form - the idea is to run this new 'try-or-install?' window before the actual liveuser session gets started. Then we can select the language there. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
I'd also suggest merely indefinite article a instead of any. Simper for translation. How are the translations going to be handled, Kalev? How do you get it into spin-kickstarts? Is there enough time to set up project in transifex (or whatever is Fedora using) and have this translated before F17 release? -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
Hi all, Yesterday night I noticed an IRC conversation on #fedora-desktop about this, and suggested that an actual window would be a lot better than a notification. Kalev, Matthias and the people there agreed with me, so I went ahead and wrote some code that does just that [1]. Screenshots can be found here [2] [3]. I showed this today to Matthias and other people in the RH office, and the reception was good; people agree it's a good improvement over the proposed notification for F17. The text in the window comes from the result of this thread's discussion. What do you think? [1] https://github.com/cosimoc/fedora-welcome [2] http://i.imgur.com/8vRcO.png [3] http://i.imgur.com/gF0UJ.png -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On 05/03/2012 11:22 PM, Cosimo Cecchi wrote: Hi all, Yesterday night I noticed an IRC conversation on #fedora-desktop about this, and suggested that an actual window would be a lot better than a notification. Kalev, Matthias and the people there agreed with me, so I went ahead and wrote some code that does just that [1]. [...] What do you think? This is really great: nice, clean, and professional-looking. Thanks Cosimo! -- Kalev -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On 05/03/2012 05:22 PM, Cosimo Cecchi wrote: Hi all, Yesterday night I noticed an IRC conversation on #fedora-desktop about this, and suggested that an actual window would be a lot better than a notification. Kalev, Matthias and the people there agreed with me, so I went ahead and wrote some code that does just that [1]. Screenshots can be found here [2] [3]. I showed this today to Matthias and other people in the RH office, and the reception was good; people agree it's a good improvement over the proposed notification for F17. The text in the window comes from the result of this thread's discussion. What do you think? [1] https://github.com/cosimoc/fedora-welcome [2] http://i.imgur.com/8vRcO.png [3] http://i.imgur.com/gF0UJ.png Loved it! Thanks and congratulations :) -- Germán A. Racca Fedora Package Maintainer https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Skytux -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On 05/03/2012 11:05 PM, Kamil Paral wrote: How are the translations going to be handled, Kalev? How do you get it into spin-kickstarts? Ideally, I think the welcome screen code should be in anaconda repo and would be translated in there. But I haven't yet talked to the anaconda people about this. Is there enough time to set up project in transifex (or whatever is Fedora using) and have this translated before F17 release? Perhaps we can. Not sure if there's enough time for that. What's the use case for translations? I'll note that there's no way to select the language in the GDM login screen, so everyone using the official media will see the untranslated welcome screen at least once, before they manage to change the language in system settings. Do we spin any localized live media? There are kickstart files for this in spin-kickstarts repo, are they actually used? -- Thanks, Kalev -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
Yesterday night I noticed an IRC conversation on #fedora-desktop about this, and suggested that an actual window would be a lot better than a notification. Kalev, Matthias and the people there agreed with me, so I went ahead and wrote some code that does just that [1]. Screenshots can be found here [2] [3]. I showed this today to Matthias and other people in the RH office, and the reception was good; people agree it's a good improvement over the proposed notification for F17. The text in the window comes from the result of this thread's discussion. What do you think? [1] https://github.com/cosimoc/fedora-welcome [2] http://i.imgur.com/8vRcO.png [3] http://i.imgur.com/gF0UJ.png Yeah, this looks really well done. Shall we pull it into the anaconda git tree for F17? - Chris -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Thu, May 03, 2012 at 04:44:42PM -0400, Chris Lumens wrote: Yesterday night I noticed an IRC conversation on #fedora-desktop about this, and suggested that an actual window would be a lot better than a notification. Kalev, Matthias and the people there agreed with me, so I went ahead and wrote some code that does just that [1]. Screenshots can be found here [2] [3]. I showed this today to Matthias and other people in the RH office, and the reception was good; people agree it's a good improvement over the proposed notification for F17. The text in the window comes from the result of this thread's discussion. What do you think? [1] https://github.com/cosimoc/fedora-welcome [2] http://i.imgur.com/8vRcO.png [3] http://i.imgur.com/gF0UJ.png Yeah, this looks really well done. Shall we pull it into the anaconda git tree for F17? One additional touch of polish: is it possible to detect if we are running from live CD or live USB and present left icon accordingly? -- Tomasz Torcz 72-| 80-| xmpp: zdzich...@chrome.pl 72-| 80-| -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Thu, 2012-05-03 at 22:47 +0200, Tomasz Torcz wrote: One additional touch of polish: is it possible to detect if we are running from live CD or live USB and present left icon accordingly? Had the same idea while writing the code yesterday, but ran out of steam before thinking of a smart way to detect this...suggestions welcome. Cosimo -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
Hi,
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 4:22 PM, Cosimo Cecchi cosi...@gnome.org wrote:
What do you think?
[1] https://github.com/cosimoc/fedora-welcome
Looking I see this:
// provided by the 'anaconda' package
anacondaApp = Gio.DesktopAppInfo.new('anaconda.desktop');
if (!anacondaApp)
anacondaApp = Gio.DesktopAppInfo.new('liveinst.desktop');
I think you only want liveinst.desktop and not anaconda.desktop.
Minimally, you need to swap them so liveinst.desktop gets run by
default.
--Ray
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Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On 04/27/2012 08:58 PM, Jared K. Smith wrote: On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 9:50 AM, Colin Walters walt...@verbum.org wrote: The whole thing is clearly a mess that needs some high level streamlining, from the entire process of download from web page (or receive CD from friend) to the on-disk install first boot. While I certainly wouldn't disagree with this statement, let's not let perfect get in the way of better here. What can we do in the *near* term to make it easier for people to find the Install to Hard Drive option from the LiveCD? How about installing the Dock extension on the liveuser account, and configuring it to *not* auto-hide? That way we get a solution that a) many users use anyway b) is aesthetically pleasing If we install this via RPM, this will result in two extra RPMs on the installed system (gnome-shell-extension-common and -dock) -- but if installed locally (via extensions.gnome.org) it'll be contained within liveuser. Regards, -- Michel Alexandre Salim Fedora Project Contributor: http://fedoraproject.org/ Email: sali...@fedoraproject.org | GPG key ID: A36A937A Jabber: hir...@jabber.ccc.de | IRC: hir...@irc.freenode.net () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On 05/01/2012 07:25 PM, Jared K. Smith wrote: I've got to be honest here -- I don't like the wording of the notification. /.../ Pádraig, Jared, Chris: Thanks for the suggestions, I think these are definitely an improvement over the original text. I'll reply with in line comments regarding Chris's wording below. I'm not a native speaker, so please correct me if you can. You are currently running Fedora from live media. This is nice, better than the original an uninstalled live image -- I guess uninstalled is a term that developers are used to, but doesn't make a lot of sense for end users. On 05/01/2012 07:43 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: To install Fedora, click Install, or choose Install to Hard Drive in the Activities menu. I agree that it's a good idea to explain how to find the Anaconda icon. (I'll have to nitpick here and say that the correct term is Activities overview, which has a list of favorite applications in the Dash.) Also note that this notification is going to be displayed in the fallback mode as well, so if we go with explaining how to find the Anaconda icon, we are likely to need two separate texts. I don't think it's good style to spell out what the controls on the notification do -- To install Fedora, click Install. This sounds more like an user's manual, not something we should be displaying as the most prominent text that the user will see. In my opinion, the text should talk about user's actions, but not how to use the controls in the dialog box. How about this as the main text: You are currently running Fedora from live media. If you are ready, you can install Fedora now, or choose Install to Hard Drive in the Activities overview at any later time. and this for the fallback mode: You are currently running Fedora from live media. If you are ready, you can install Fedora now, or choose Install to Hard Drive in the System Tools menu at any later time. -- Thanks, Kalev -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On 05/02/2012 08:47 PM, Kalev Lember wrote: On 05/01/2012 07:25 PM, Jared K. Smith wrote: I've got to be honest here -- I don't like the wording of the notification. /.../ Pádraig, Jared, Chris: Thanks for the suggestions How about this as the main text: You are currently running Fedora from live media. If you are ready, you can install Fedora now, or choose Install to Hard Drive in the Activities overview at any later time. If you are ready is a bit redundant. How about. You are currently running Fedora from live media. You can install Fedora now, or choose Install to Hard Drive in the Activities overview at any later time. I'm happy with any of the subsequent suggestions, so feel free to commit without further input from me anyway. cheers, Pádraig. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On 05/02/2012 03:59 PM, Pádraig Brady wrote: If you are ready is a bit redundant. How about. You are currently running Fedora from live media. You can install Fedora now, or choose Install to Hard Drive in the Activities overview at any later time. I agree, this is the simplest and cleanest text so far. ~tom == Fedora Project -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On May 2, 2012, at 2:03 PM, Tom Callaway wrote: On 05/02/2012 03:59 PM, Pádraig Brady wrote: If you are ready is a bit redundant. How about. You are currently running Fedora from live media. You can install Fedora now, or choose Install to Hard Drive in the Activities overview at any later time. I agree, this is the simplest and cleanest text so far. Yes, however given the context the word may should be used instead of can. i.e. it is possible to install Fedora now. I'd also suggest merely indefinite article a instead of any. Simper for translation. And any doesn't contribute anything so I'd call it wordy. Chris Murphy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On 04/28/2012 12:33 AM, Jared K. Smith wrote: On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 3:02 PM, Bill Nottingham nott...@redhat.com wrote: I don't know how proposing and implementing a notification method of doing the same isn't providing a solution, but you're welcome to your own cross. Sorry Bill -- I'm confused here. Was a notification method actually implemented? Was it enabled in F17.TC1? If so, I didn't see it. Or was it implemented only for rawhide? I finished up the work on the notification and landed it in spin-kickstarts, so it should be available with the next media compose for both F17 and rawhide: http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git;a=commit;h=ef24d01 This is how it currently looks after booting up the Desktop Live CD: http://kalev.fedorapeople.org/anaconda-notification.png Install starts the installer; clicking anywhere else within the black notification box dismisses the notification. -- Kalev -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On 05/01/2012 02:55 PM, Kalev Lember wrote: On 04/28/2012 12:33 AM, Jared K. Smith wrote: On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 3:02 PM, Bill Nottingham nott...@redhat.com wrote: I don't know how proposing and implementing a notification method of doing the same isn't providing a solution, but you're welcome to your own cross. Sorry Bill -- I'm confused here. Was a notification method actually implemented? Was it enabled in F17.TC1? If so, I didn't see it. Or was it implemented only for rawhide? I finished up the work on the notification and landed it in spin-kickstarts, so it should be available with the next media compose for both F17 and rawhide: http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git;a=commit;h=ef24d01 This is how it currently looks after booting up the Desktop Live CD: http://kalev.fedorapeople.org/anaconda-notification.png Install starts the installer; clicking anywhere else within the black notification box dismisses the notification. Excellent thanks! A slight rewording suggestion, especially since hard disks are being rapidly replaced. You are currently using an uninstalled live image. You can try it out directly or install to your system. cheers, Pádraig. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Kalev Lember kalevlem...@gmail.com wrote: I finished up the work on the notification and landed it in spin-kickstarts, so it should be available with the next media compose for both F17 and rawhide: Cool, thanks. This is how it currently looks after booting up the Desktop Live CD: http://kalev.fedorapeople.org/anaconda-notification.png Install starts the installer; clicking anywhere else within the black notification box dismisses the notification. I've got to be honest here -- I don't like the wording of the notification. In particular, the section that says If you want to keep using Fedora is ambiguous, as you could keep using Fedora from the live media without installing it. Might I suggest the following text instead: You are currently running Fedora from live media. To install Fedora to your hard drive, click the button below or the Install to Hard Drive option in the activities menu. -- Jared Smith -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On May 1, 2012, at 10:25 AM, Jared K. Smith wrote: You are currently running Fedora from live media. To install Fedora to your hard drive, click the button below or the Install to Hard Drive option in the activities menu. You are currently running Fedora from live media. To install Fedora, click Install, or choose Install to Hard Drive in the Activities menu. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Apr 27, 2012 11:34 PM, Jared K. Smith jsm...@fedoraproject.org wrote: Sorry Bill -- I'm confused here. Was a notification method actually implemented? Was it enabled in F17.TC1? If so, I didn't see it. Or was it implemented only for rawhide? It was implemented only in the sense that code was written and posted to this list for discussion. Florian -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
There seems to be at least some consensus that: * The notification, unless permanent, is not an ideal solution here because once it goes away, the user is in the same situation of confusion as to how to install the Live Image to disk. * The extension as proposed is not an ideal solution because it is too intrusive a change on the GNOME Shell design that the Live Image is demonstrating. * Autostarting anaconda at startup is not an ideal solution because there are many valid use-cases for the Live Image where this would not be wanted, and also, if the new user closes it, they will have the same difficulty launching it again later when they are ready. * Launching a install or try it uninstalled merely masks the issue, because when the user selects try it uninstalled, they have the same difficulty finding the installer again later when they are ready. Would it be possible to design an extension that has a minimal impact on the GNOME Shell design and still provides a clear, persistent, and obvious way to install the Live Image to disk? ~tom The discussion has died. I have lost any hope that it could lead to a positive output, so I'll not push any more. The desktop SIG expressed clear and utter NO. For the last two Fedora releases new Fedora users have been having a hard time to locate the installer. It seems to be clear that nothing will change in Fedora 17. I find it sad how desktop guys try to veto solutions they don't like, but they don't push on any other solutions. I also find it sad how strong their rejection is even though the overwhelming majority of other respondents like it. I'll keep the source code on github [1]. Maybe it will be useful for someone else, some time, e.g. for some Fedora spin or for a different Linux distribution. If anybody wants to continue in pushing this, and explaining better to desktop SIG, you're welcome. [1] https://github.com/kparal/InstallFedoraButton -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
Hi Kamil, On Fri, 2012-04-27 at 09:22 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote: but they don't push on any other solutions. A link from the http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora page directly to http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/16/html/Installation_Quick_Start_Guide/Fedora_Live_Desktop.html ? To be honest I'm torn myself because I do sometimes use live images for their try before you buy ability, not necessarily to install to disk right at that second. But having an extension installed by default has a lot of technical ramifications; for example, it'll also get copied to the hard disk after you install. Also, while I'm not an artist or designer, I think it looks pretty ugly... The whole thing is clearly a mess that needs some high level streamlining, from the entire process of download from web page (or receive CD from friend) to the on-disk install first boot. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 9:50 AM, Colin Walters walt...@verbum.org wrote: The whole thing is clearly a mess that needs some high level streamlining, from the entire process of download from web page (or receive CD from friend) to the on-disk install first boot. While I certainly wouldn't disagree with this statement, let's not let perfect get in the way of better here. What can we do in the *near* term to make it easier for people to find the Install to Hard Drive option from the LiveCD? I understand that there are technical reasons why the extension is frowned upon -- but that shouldn't mean that we do nothing to try to improve the situation. I tried not to complain too loudly while I was the FPL, especially because GNOME Shell was new and had plenty of other things to focus on. Now that it's a bit more mature, I'd really like to come up with a better solution here. -- Jared Smith -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
but they don't push on any other solutions. A link from the http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora page directly to http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/16/html/Installation_Quick_Start_Guide/Fedora_Live_Desktop.html ? I've spent 5 minutes looking for that direct link and I haven't found it. Maybe I'm just blind. There's a small link for full installation guide, but I see no link for quick start guide, and no link for the page you posted. Something tells me that if I have never seen it, and couldn't find it even when looking for it, that 99% of new users won't see it as well. But having an extension installed by default has a lot of technical ramifications; for example, it'll also get copied to the hard disk after you install. Also, while I'm not an artist or designer, I think it looks pretty ugly... No, it will not get installed, I described that before (maybe just on anaconda-devel). I don't mean to haggle about it anymore. Just clearing up misconceptions. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Fri, 2012-04-27 at 10:26 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote: but they don't push on any other solutions. A link from the http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora page directly to http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/16/html/Installation_Quick_Start_Guide/Fedora_Live_Desktop.html ? I've spent 5 minutes looking for that direct link and I haven't found it. That was my point - it doesn't exist yet as far as I know, but is an option to improve the situation. No, it will not get installed, I described that before (maybe just on anaconda-devel). OK. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On 04/27/2012 10:50 AM, Colin Walters wrote: Hi Kamil, On Fri, 2012-04-27 at 09:22 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote: but they don't push on any other solutions. A link from the http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora page directly to http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/16/html/Installation_Quick_Start_Guide/Fedora_Live_Desktop.html ? +1 It would be nice if this links is in the get-fedora page. All the best, Germán. To be honest I'm torn myself because I do sometimes use live images for their try before you buy ability, not necessarily to install to disk right at that second. But having an extension installed by default has a lot of technical ramifications; for example, it'll also get copied to the hard disk after you install. Also, while I'm not an artist or designer, I think it looks pretty ugly... The whole thing is clearly a mess that needs some high level streamlining, from the entire process of download from web page (or receive CD from friend) to the on-disk install first boot. -- Germán A. Racca Fedora Package Maintainer https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Skytux -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
Kamil Paral (kpa...@redhat.com) said: I find it sad how desktop guys try to veto solutions they don't like, but they don't push on any other solutions. I don't know how proposing and implementing a notification method of doing the same isn't providing a solution, but you're welcome to your own cross. Bill -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 3:02 PM, Bill Nottingham nott...@redhat.com wrote: I don't know how proposing and implementing a notification method of doing the same isn't providing a solution, but you're welcome to your own cross. Sorry Bill -- I'm confused here. Was a notification method actually implemented? Was it enabled in F17.TC1? If so, I didn't see it. Or was it implemented only for rawhide? -- Jared Smith -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
Chris Murphy wrote: If not the button, I'd propose an enduring hack to restore sensible desktop icon functionality and my right to a cluttered desktop. +1 On the KDE spin, we explicitly kept desktop icons enabled (in the form of the Plasma folder view widget) exactly because of this usecase. Why can't the GNOME spin follow suit? Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 09:52:38 -0400, Matthias Clasen mcla...@redhat.com wrote: On Fri, 2012-04-20 at 11:55 +0200, Jiri Eischmann wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't see any improvement in this solution? I've said from the beginning that I think the best solution is to show a regular window, either just autostarting the installer or offering a 'install or just try uninstalled' choice. I'm not claiming that the notification is a fantastic solution. That isn't a good solution for people who normally use live images for stuff other than installing, as it will bug them every time they use the image. Though a possible compromise here is to only do that on the desktop image and not any of the other images that derive from desktop. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Thu, 2012-04-19 at 16:24 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: That is obscure UI design, and therefore doesn't resolve the current UI obscurity. So I see very little efficacy in the idea. To contribute something positive here, I went ahead and implemented the 'oscurity'. See attached. I tried that out. For some reason the notification doesn't pop up after I run the program, is that intended? You have to open the overview mode to view an icon in bottom right and then click that icon to see the message. I created a screenshot gallery here (using time order): http://imgur.com/a/3hAEJ Currently that is obscure the same way the current dash launcher is. We would need at least to pop up that notification right after logging in, and then hide the notification if users clicks on it (outside the Install button). Ideally it should be clear that the button is still available to the user even if I dismiss the notification (I'm not sure how to do that). Another question is what happens if user doesn't dismiss it, what about other notifications, do they just queue and don't show up? Of course, neither the extension nor the notification have any translations, so they are not really suitable for including as-is in F17. As I have described earlier, InstallFedoraButton doesn't need any translations, it uses anaconda.desktop file. Try to switch your language to german or french and you'll see the button text in german or french. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
resistance is futile On Apr 20, 2012 8:49 AM, Kamil Paral kpa...@redhat.com wrote: On Thu, 2012-04-19 at 16:24 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: That is obscure UI design, and therefore doesn't resolve the current UI obscurity. So I see very little efficacy in the idea. To contribute something positive here, I went ahead and implemented the 'oscurity'. See attached. I tried that out. For some reason the notification doesn't pop up after I run the program, is that intended? You have to open the overview mode to view an icon in bottom right and then click that icon to see the message. I created a screenshot gallery here (using time order): http://imgur.com/a/3hAEJ Currently that is obscure the same way the current dash launcher is. We would need at least to pop up that notification right after logging in, and then hide the notification if users clicks on it (outside the Install button). Ideally it should be clear that the button is still available to the user even if I dismiss the notification (I'm not sure how to do that). Another question is what happens if user doesn't dismiss it, what about other notifications, do they just queue and don't show up? Of course, neither the extension nor the notification have any translations, so they are not really suitable for including as-is in F17. As I have described earlier, InstallFedoraButton doesn't need any translations, it uses anaconda.desktop file. Try to switch your language to german or french and you'll see the button text in german or french. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
Hey, On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 9:49 AM, Kamil Paral kpa...@redhat.com wrote: I tried that out. For some reason the notification doesn't pop up after I run the program, is that intended? No, it should be shown in banner mode like in http://imgur.com/Gk1Az(that's a screenshot of running the unmodified program here). Currently that is obscure the same way the current dash launcher is. We would need at least to pop up that notification right after logging in, and then hide the notification if users clicks on it (outside the Install button). Ideally it should be clear that the button is still available to the user even if I dismiss the notification (I'm not sure how to do that). After the notification pops down (either due to a timeout or because the users dismisses it explicitly) the message tray (translucent black bar at the bottom holding notification icons) is shown for a moment to indicate that that's where the notification went. Another question is what happens if user doesn't dismiss it, what about other notifications, do they just queue and don't show up? Only for the duration the notification is actively shown (as in my screenshot), which is about two seconds if I recall correctly. Regards, Florian -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
Kamil Paral píše v Pá 20. 04. 2012 v 03:49 -0400: On Thu, 2012-04-19 at 16:24 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: That is obscure UI design, and therefore doesn't resolve the current UI obscurity. So I see very little efficacy in the idea. To contribute something positive here, I went ahead and implemented the 'oscurity'. See attached. I tried that out. For some reason the notification doesn't pop up after I run the program, is that intended? You have to open the overview mode to view an icon in bottom right and then click that icon to see the message. I created a screenshot gallery here (using time order): http://imgur.com/a/3hAEJ Currently that is obscure the same way the current dash launcher is. We would need at least to pop up that notification right after logging in, and then hide the notification if users clicks on it (outside the Install button). Ideally it should be clear that the button is still available to the user even if I dismiss the notification (I'm not sure how to do that). Another question is what happens if user doesn't dismiss it, what about other notifications, do they just queue and don't show up? So if I understand it correctly instead of having an icon in the dash we have the same icon, but smaller, in the systray where it is hidden even more. Am I the only one who doesn't see any improvement in this solution? The notification is nice, but the only job it does is that it says the live system is installable. It really doesn't help the user find out how to install it. Users familiar with the concept of GNOME 3 might get a clue and look for it in the systray, but I think we're not fixing this problem for them. We're fixing it for those who are rather new to Fedora and GNOME 3. Jiri -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Apr 20, 2012 11:55 AM, Jiri Eischmann eischm...@redhat.com wrote: The notification is nice, but the only job it does is that it says the live system is installable. It really doesn't help the user find out how to install it. The notification contains a button which is labeled Install. I don't think users will have that much trouble figuring out what it does ... Regards, Florian -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
Florian Müllner píše v Pá 20. 04. 2012 v 12:27 +0200: On Apr 20, 2012 11:55 AM, Jiri Eischmann eischm...@redhat.com wrote: The notification is nice, but the only job it does is that it says the live system is installable. It really doesn't help the user find out how to install it. The notification contains a button which is labeled Install. I don't think users will have that much trouble figuring out what it does ... Is the notification gonna persist for the whole session? If not the button is not very helpful. I think the people, for whom Kamil wants to fix this, won't install Fedora right away, they will want to play with it and explore for a while. Meanwhile the notification will disappear and the problem will come back again: where to start the installation process? I just wanted to say that the icon in the systray is even less likely to be discovered that the icon in the dash. I'm pretty sure a lot of people will just reboot to get the notification they saw at the beginning of the session which is more or less our failure to fix this issue. Jiri -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On 04/20/2012 07:27 AM, Florian Müllner wrote: On Apr 20, 2012 11:55 AM, Jiri Eischmann eischm...@redhat.com mailto:eischm...@redhat.com wrote: The notification is nice, but the only job it does is that it says the live system is installable. It really doesn't help the user find out how to install it. The notification contains a button which is labeled Install. I don't think users will have that much trouble figuring out what it does ... Regards, Florian For users like you and me it's ok, no problem to find the button in the notification, because we already know where it is... but for a user that never used Gnome 3 before, the notification will be hidden in the bottom panel, which is hidden from the user and is hard to discover, unless you already know that you must go with the mouse to the very right bottom corner of the screen. Germán. -- Germán A. Racca Fedora Package Maintainer https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Skytux -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Fri, 2012-04-20 at 11:55 +0200, Jiri Eischmann wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't see any improvement in this solution? I've said from the beginning that I think the best solution is to show a regular window, either just autostarting the installer or offering a 'install or just try uninstalled' choice. I'm not claiming that the notification is a fantastic solution. The improvement of the notification over the extension is that it doesn't break some of the basic shell design choices by forcing itself between the system status and the clock on the top panel. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On 04/20/2012 09:52 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote: On Fri, 2012-04-20 at 11:55 +0200, Jiri Eischmann wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't see any improvement in this solution? I've said from the beginning that I think the best solution is to show a regular window, either just autostarting the installer or offering a 'install or just try uninstalled' choice. I'm not claiming that the notification is a fantastic solution. The improvement of the notification over the extension is that it doesn't break some of the basic shell design choices by forcing itself between the system status and the clock on the top panel. There seems to be at least some consensus that: * The notification, unless permanent, is not an ideal solution here because once it goes away, the user is in the same situation of confusion as to how to install the Live Image to disk. * The extension as proposed is not an ideal solution because it is too intrusive a change on the GNOME Shell design that the Live Image is demonstrating. * Autostarting anaconda at startup is not an ideal solution because there are many valid use-cases for the Live Image where this would not be wanted, and also, if the new user closes it, they will have the same difficulty launching it again later when they are ready. * Launching a install or try it uninstalled merely masks the issue, because when the user selects try it uninstalled, they have the same difficulty finding the installer again later when they are ready. Would it be possible to design an extension that has a minimal impact on the GNOME Shell design and still provides a clear, persistent, and obvious way to install the Live Image to disk? ~tom == Fedora Project -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
Dne 20.4.2012 16:04, Tom Callaway napsal(a): On 04/20/2012 09:52 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote: On Fri, 2012-04-20 at 11:55 +0200, Jiri Eischmann wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't see any improvement in this solution? I've said from the beginning that I think the best solution is to show a regular window, either just autostarting the installer or offering a 'install or just try uninstalled' choice. I'm not claiming that the notification is a fantastic solution. The improvement of the notification over the extension is that it doesn't break some of the basic shell design choices by forcing itself between the system status and the clock on the top panel. There seems to be at least some consensus that: * The notification, unless permanent, is not an ideal solution here because once it goes away, the user is in the same situation of confusion as to how to install the Live Image to disk. * The extension as proposed is not an ideal solution because it is too intrusive a change on the GNOME Shell design that the Live Image is demonstrating. * Autostarting anaconda at startup is not an ideal solution because there are many valid use-cases for the Live Image where this would not be wanted, and also, if the new user closes it, they will have the same difficulty launching it again later when they are ready. * Launching a install or try it uninstalled merely masks the issue, because when the user selects try it uninstalled, they have the same difficulty finding the installer again later when they are ready. Would it be possible to design an extension that has a minimal impact on the GNOME Shell design and still provides a clear, persistent, and obvious way to install the Live Image to disk? ~tom == Fedora Project What about something on GDM level? There would be something like live user, which would run just the live image and install user which would run the anaconda immediately? Or something along the way, not sure if that is feasible (although I personally prefer the tray notification). Vit -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
Tom Callaway (tcall...@redhat.com) said:
There seems to be at least some consensus that:
* The notification, unless permanent, is not an ideal solution here
because once it goes away, the user is in the same situation of
confusion as to how to install the Live Image to disk.
The notification that Matthias posted is permanent, until the user
explicitly goes through and clicks to remove it.
I've updated it so that it pulls translations from anaconda for the tile
and the action item.
Bill
#!/usr/bin/env python
from gi.repository import GLib
from gi.repository import Gio
from gi.repository import Notify
import sys
import os
def install_cb(n, action):
assert action == install
n.close()
os.execlp(liveinst, liveinst)
if __name__ == '__main__':
appinfo = Gio.DesktopAppInfo()
try:
desktop =
appinfo.new_from_filename(/usr/share/applications/liveinst.desktop)
except:
sys.exit(1)
label = desktop.get_name()
actionlabel = desktop.get_generic_name()
if not Notify.init(label):
sys.exit(1)
n = Notify.Notification()
n.set_property(summary,label)
n.set_property(body,
You are currently using an uninstalled live image.\n +
If you want to keep using Fedora, you can install +
it to your hard disk.)
n.set_property(icon-name,anaconda)
n.set_hint(resident, GLib.Variant('b',True))
n.add_action(install, actionlabel, install_cb, None, None)
if not n.show():
print Failed to send notification
sys.exit(1)
GLib.MainLoop().run()
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Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On 04/20/2012 12:08 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: Tom Callaway (tcall...@redhat.com) said: There seems to be at least some consensus that: * The notification, unless permanent, is not an ideal solution here because once it goes away, the user is in the same situation of confusion as to how to install the Live Image to disk. The notification that Matthias posted is permanent, until the user explicitly goes through and clicks to remove it. I've updated it so that it pulls translations from anaconda for the tile and the action item. Bill $ python install.py TypeError: install_cb() takes exactly 2 arguments (3 given) -- Germán A. Racca Fedora Package Maintainer https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Skytux -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Fri, 2012-04-20 at 11:55 +0200, Jiri Eischmann wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't see any improvement in this solution? Negative. On Apr 20, 2012, at 7:52 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote: I've said from the beginning that I think the best solution is to show a regular window, either just autostarting the installer or offering a 'install or just try uninstalled' choice. I'm not claiming that the notification is a fantastic solution. The improvement of the notification over the extension is that it doesn't break some of the basic shell design choices by forcing itself between the system status and the clock on the top panel. Exhibit A: Notification doesn't have translations. It is also not persistently discoverable. Exhibit B: The button/extension inherits translation, it is persistently discoverable. Exhibit C: Autostarting the installer on a LiveCD is user hostile, totally untenable. Put such a Live CD into a flaming bag of dog crap, with optional sparklers for further effect. Exhibit D: A regular window will be closed by the user, and now where is the installer? Not persistently discoverable. Exhibit E: The basic shell design is asinine and indefensible. A Desktop folder, contents of which do not show up on the desktop. That's what started this problem, for which there was previously quite a universally accepted means of persistent discoverability of the installer icon. If not the button, I'd propose an enduring hack to restore sensible desktop icon functionality and my right to a cluttered desktop. Chris Murphy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Apr 20, 2012, at 8:35 AM, Vít Ondruch wrote: What about something on GDM level? There would be something like live user, which would run just the live image and install user which would run the anaconda immediately? http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-April/165275.html Chris Murphy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Tue, 2012-04-17 at 13:55 -0500, Chris Adams wrote: Once upon a time, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com said: One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD / netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede all the other suggestions, I think. I'm guessing that such a anaconda in a locked-down environment would have to be installing packages from the network, since there certainly isn't space on the disc for both a live image and the necessary RPMs. Why? I don't see any obvious technical reason why it couldn't still simply dump the live image onto the hard disk, as it (more or less) does at present. If anything it'd be easier, because the image it was trying to dump wouldn't be...the running environment. :) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
However in the meantime for F17, is the installer Easter egg hunt still on? It's way too obscure presently. I did some minor tweaks, posted the code here: https://github.com/kparal/InstallFedoraButton and prepared a patch for fedora-live-desktop.ks. I want to post the patch to anaconda-devel this week. Posted: https://www.redhat.com/archives/anaconda-devel-list/2012-April/msg00212.html But they still must accept it. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On 04/18/2012 06:20 AM, Kamil Paral wrote: One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD / netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede all the other suggestions, I think. Sure, if that works out, it's very easy to delete the extension. As an interim solution I think it's fine. However in the meantime for F17, is the installer Easter egg hunt still on? It's way too obscure presently. I did some minor tweaks, posted the code here: https://github.com/kparal/InstallFedoraButton and prepared a patch for fedora-live-desktop.ks. I want to post the patch to anaconda-devel this week. What do you thing about moving the icon to the left? -- Germán A. Racca Fedora Package Maintainer https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Skytux -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
I did some minor tweaks, posted the code here: https://github.com/kparal/InstallFedoraButton and prepared a patch for fedora-live-desktop.ks. I want to post the patch to anaconda-devel this week. What do you thing about moving the icon to the left? This has already been raised in anaconda-devel. I have updated the screenshot to make it clear the left side is already taken by application menu. If you still know where you would like to see it, please modify the picture and indicate the correct location, thanks. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Apr 19, 2012, at 2:53 PM, Germán A. Racca wrote: What do you thing about moving the icon to the left? It doesn't improve the UI, or discoverability, in my opinion. But it does potentially conflict with the active application. The existing location seems reasonable. I think the name is a bigger problem than the location, and needs to be altered, however. I separately mentioned this on the anaconda list but basically, the two solutions: Launch Fedora Installer is more correct. Install Fedora . . . is also acceptable UI convention to indicate additional options will be presented (by the installer) rather than an immediate installation to the hard disk with no user interaction. Chris Murphy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On 04/19/2012 06:09 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: On Apr 19, 2012, at 2:53 PM, Germán A. Racca wrote: What do you thing about moving the icon to the left? It doesn't improve the UI, or discoverability, in my opinion. But it does potentially conflict with the active application. The existing location seems reasonable. I think the name is a bigger problem than the location, and needs to be altered, however. I separately mentioned this on the anaconda list but basically, the two solutions: Launch Fedora Installer is more correct. Install Fedora . . . is also acceptable UI convention to indicate additional options will be presented (by the installer) rather than an immediate installation to the hard disk with no user interaction. Chris Murphy Forget it. The screenshot clarified all my doubts :) I also vote for a different name in the button, but not sure which one. Both mentioned here seem more reasonable. Germán. -- Germán A. Racca Fedora Package Maintainer https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Skytux -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 4:16 AM, Matthias Clasen mcla...@redhat.com wrote: No, it is not. I've said so the first time, and I have not changed my opinion. Make it a notification. All this discussion is obscuring the original problem. Although a notification is easy, if it is dismissed, it fails as a method to start an install. So it's inferior to a dedicated button. Also, I think the use cases are inaccurate... Install would normally be only after seeing that the basic desktop / networking / suspend-resume was working properly. So I see several use cases: use livecd for some activity; use for testing followed by install; and more rarely, install immediately. A notification or popup at login time is only really a good fit for the immediate install use case. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Apr 19, 2012, at 3:24 PM, Camilo Mesias wrote: On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 4:16 AM, Matthias Clasen mcla...@redhat.com wrote: No, it is not. I've said so the first time, and I have not changed my opinion. Make it a notification. All this discussion is obscuring the original problem. Although a notification is easy, if it is dismissed, it fails as a method to start an install. So it's inferior to a dedicated button. Also, I think the use cases are inaccurate... Install would normally be only after seeing that the basic desktop / networking / suspend-resume was working properly. So I see several use cases: use livecd for some activity; use for testing followed by install; and more rarely, install immediately. A notification or popup at login time is only really a good fit for the immediate install use case. In effect it may necessitate a reboot to get that notification back, in order to know how to install? That's user hostile, in my book. The notification would be nice, although perhaps superfluous, in addition to the button. But it's inadequate in lieu of the button. Chris Murphy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 12:00 AM, Chris Murphy li...@colorremedies.comwrote: In effect it may necessitate a reboot to get that notification back, in order to know how to install? Not if the notification is resident, in which case it will remain in the message tray even after it has been acknowledged by the user. Regards, Florian -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Apr 19, 2012, at 4:16 PM, Florian Müllner wrote: On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 12:00 AM, Chris Murphy li...@colorremedies.com wrote: In effect it may necessitate a reboot to get that notification back, in order to know how to install? Not if the notification is resident, in which case it will remain in the message tray even after it has been acknowledged by the user. That is obscure UI design, and therefore doesn't resolve the current UI obscurity. So I see very little efficacy in the idea. Chris Murphy-- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Thu, 2012-04-19 at 16:24 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: That is obscure UI design, and therefore doesn't resolve the current UI obscurity. So I see very little efficacy in the idea. To contribute something positive here, I went ahead and implemented the 'oscurity'. See attached. As an extra win, it only needs 30 lines of code, compared to Kamils 60. Of course, neither the extension nor the notification have any translations, so they are not really suitable for including as-is in F17. Matthias #!/usr/bin/env python import pynotify import sys import os import glib def install_cb(n, action): assert action == install n.close() os.execlp(liveinst, liveinst) if __name__ == '__main__': if not pynotify.init(Install Fedora): sys.exit(1) n = pynotify.Notification(Install Fedora, You are currently using an uninstalled live image.\n + If you want to keep using Fedora, you can install + it to your hard disk., anaconda); n.add_action(install, Install, install_cb) n.set_hint(resident, True) if not n.show(): print Failed to send notification sys.exit(1) glib.MainLoop().run() -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 05:20 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote: One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD / netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede all the other suggestions, I think. Sure, if that works out, it's very easy to delete the extension. As an interim solution I think it's fine. No, it is not. I've said so the first time, and I have not changed my opinion. Make it a notification. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
Dne 17.4.2012 20:51, Adam Williamson napsal(a): On Wed, 2012-04-04 at 10:04 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: On Tue, 2012-04-03 at 09:55 -0800, Jef Spaleta wrote: On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Nathanael D. Nobletnathan...@gnat.ca wrote: How bout adding/changing the icon for installing? Can we not include some text in the icon? Install Fedora somehow?? Actually... would it make sense to force a notification event about the install option on live CD login? It pops up for a few seconds in the message tray telling you this media can be used for a full install..and then the message lives in the message tray until dismissed. Seems like the point of the message tray to me. Or am I missing the point The one thing that a notification has going for it is that it doesn't really require any design and the implementation is readily available. But a welcome screen which offers to install or run uninstalled makes more sense to me, design-wise. Sorry for the thread archaeology, I'm catching up on two weeks of -devel after Beta crunch and travelling. One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD / netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede all the other suggestions, I think. Actually that is exactly the opposite of what I'd like to see. I'd like to be able to run Anaconda from my F16 and install F17 on different partition for example. Why should I download some installation medium when I have already running system which is capable to run Anaconda? Vit -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD / netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede all the other suggestions, I think. Sure, if that works out, it's very easy to delete the extension. As an interim solution I think it's fine. However in the meantime for F17, is the installer Easter egg hunt still on? It's way too obscure presently. I did some minor tweaks, posted the code here: https://github.com/kparal/InstallFedoraButton and prepared a patch for fedora-live-desktop.ks. I want to post the patch to anaconda-devel this week. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Wed, 2012-04-04 at 10:04 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: On Tue, 2012-04-03 at 09:55 -0800, Jef Spaleta wrote: On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Nathanael D. Noblet nathan...@gnat.ca wrote: How bout adding/changing the icon for installing? Can we not include some text in the icon? Install Fedora somehow?? Actually... would it make sense to force a notification event about the install option on live CD login? It pops up for a few seconds in the message tray telling you this media can be used for a full install..and then the message lives in the message tray until dismissed. Seems like the point of the message tray to me. Or am I missing the point The one thing that a notification has going for it is that it doesn't really require any design and the implementation is readily available. But a welcome screen which offers to install or run uninstalled makes more sense to me, design-wise. Sorry for the thread archaeology, I'm catching up on two weeks of -devel after Beta crunch and travelling. One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD / netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede all the other suggestions, I think. Brian, is the above actually likely to happen in any near-future timeframe? Or is it just one of those 'wouldn't it be nice if...' things? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Wed, 2012-04-04 at 10:04 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: On Tue, 2012-04-03 at 09:55 -0800, Jef Spaleta wrote: On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Nathanael D. Noblet nathan...@gnat.ca wrote: How bout adding/changing the icon for installing? Can we not include some text in the icon? Install Fedora somehow?? Actually... would it make sense to force a notification event about the install option on live CD login? It pops up for a few seconds in the message tray telling you this media can be used for a full install..and then the message lives in the message tray until dismissed. Seems like the point of the message tray to me. Or am I missing the point The one thing that a notification has going for it is that it doesn't really require any design and the implementation is readily available. But a welcome screen which offers to install or run uninstalled makes more sense to me, design-wise. Sorry for the thread archaeology, I'm catching up on two weeks of -devel after Beta crunch and travelling. One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD / netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede all the other suggestions, I think. Brian, is the above actually likely to happen in any near-future timeframe? Or is it just one of those 'wouldn't it be nice if...' things? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
Once upon a time, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com said: One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD / netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede all the other suggestions, I think. I'm guessing that such a anaconda in a locked-down environment would have to be installing packages from the network, since there certainly isn't space on the disc for both a live image and the necessary RPMs. At that point, what's the point of combining netinst and live? Remove the install-from-live support and have live images as just live images. -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 8:55 PM, Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net wrote: Once upon a time, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com said: One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD / netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede all the other suggestions, I think. I'm guessing that such a anaconda in a locked-down environment would have to be installing packages from the network, since there certainly isn't space on the disc for both a live image and the necessary RPMs. Sure there is unless you imply that disc == cd. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 07:51:05PM +0100, Adam Williamson wrote: One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD / netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede all the other suggestions, I think. There's more than one of us I think :) Brian, is the above actually likely to happen in any near-future timeframe? Or is it just one of those 'wouldn't it be nice if...' things? Not for F17. Maybe for F18 if I can figure out a way to do it that wouldn't confuse the heck out of everyone already using live to do their install.s The reason why I dislike liveinst is that by launching it from a running system the environment setup for it isn't as consistent as when it is run from a DVD or netinst.iso install environment. This results in odd bugs related to liveinst that don't show up in the normal install path. -- Brian C. Lane | Anaconda Team | IRC: bcl #anaconda | Port Orchard, WA (PST8PDT) pgpjAfiwYeuJ4.pgp Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
Brian C. Lane (b...@redhat.com) said: Not for F17. Maybe for F18 if I can figure out a way to do it that wouldn't confuse the heck out of everyone already using live to do their install.s The reason why I dislike liveinst is that by launching it from a running system the environment setup for it isn't as consistent as when it is run from a DVD or netinst.iso install environment. This results in odd bugs related to liveinst that don't show up in the normal install path. If anaconda's already using a custom systemd target, what prevents also shipping that target on the live image and booting to it? Bill -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
Once upon a time, drago01 drag...@gmail.com said: On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 8:55 PM, Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net wrote: I'm guessing that such a anaconda in a locked-down environment would have to be installing packages from the network, since there certainly isn't space on the disc for both a live image and the necessary RPMs. Sure there is unless you imply that disc == cd. Well, having to download and copy/burn to boot media an image containing hundreds of megs (or a couple of gigs) worth of RPMs just to get a live boot would be irritating (to say the least). -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Apr 17, 2012, at 12:53 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: replace it with a choice on the live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' I like this idea. Although perhaps slightly challenging to get concisely worded choices that also don't cause confusion. It's possible Start vs Install is sufficient. Slightly more clear Start Fedora 17 Live Desktop vs Install Fedora xx. However in the meantime for F17, is the installer Easter egg hunt still on? It's way too obscure presently. Chris Murphy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 9:26 PM, Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net wrote: Once upon a time, drago01 drag...@gmail.com said: On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 8:55 PM, Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net wrote: I'm guessing that such a anaconda in a locked-down environment would have to be installing packages from the network, since there certainly isn't space on the disc for both a live image and the necessary RPMs. Sure there is unless you imply that disc == cd. Well, having to download and copy/burn to boot media an image containing hundreds of megs (or a couple of gigs) worth of RPMs just to get a live boot would be irritating (to say the least). Well it is not like you download it daily so ... -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
Once upon a time, drago01 drag...@gmail.com said: Well it is not like you download it daily so ... That would be an incredibly poor justification to cram two otherwise unrelated things (live and install) into one image (if that is indeed the idea of the anaconda group - I haven't seen any clarification yet). -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 10:00 PM, Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net wrote: Once upon a time, drago01 drag...@gmail.com said: Well it is not like you download it daily so ... That would be an incredibly poor justification to cram two otherwise unrelated things (live and install) Obviously they aren't that unrelated otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion ;) into one image (if that is indeed the idea of the anaconda group - I haven't seen any clarification yet). I am just saying we shouldn't limit the user experience by the size of an obsolete medium i.e it does not fit on a CD should not be a blocker for anything IMO. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Wed, 2012-04-04 at 00:17 +, Ben Boeckel wrote: On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 17:54:46 GMT, Chris Adams wrote: Once upon a time, Matthias Clasen mcla...@redhat.com said: That really depends on what use cases we see for our live cds. In my view, there's really only two: The primary use for a live cd is to install. That's the primary use of the install media. The primary use of the live media is to boot a live system. +1. Testing whether a video card (or other non-removable hardware) is supported or not is a prime use case of Live media for me. I don't see how that would be hindered by autostarting the installer. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Apr 9, 2012, at 6:36 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote: I don't see how that would be hindered by autostarting the installer. I definitely dislike the idea of installer autostart. I imagine my typical live commentary with such a LiveCD as, WTF?! I didn't ask for the g.d. installer to f'n launch! What the sh*t?! DVD and netinst media works this way, the LiveCD *expressly* should not. Chris Murphy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On 04/03/2012 02:26 PM, Kamil Paral wrote: I was quite depressed how hard it can be for a layman to find a way to install Fedora from LiveCD environment. On a more general note it would be nice to stream-line the experience from web to installation. Most of the hard parts are done, just a few steps to polish. As a developer I don't read the docs and for ages have just: wget -c ... # download live image (-c to resume partial) ls -1 /sys/block | grep usb (To find USBDEV) dd iflag=direct oflag=direct bs=1M if=file.iso of=/dev/$USBDEV (I use direct to avoid linux virtual memory stalls and cache eviction) So as an experiment I tried as a new user would, to see how easily they could come to an equivalent conclusion: 1a. Search for install fedora - get.fedoraproject.org This is very good 1b. Search for fedora linux - fedoraproject.org This is OK, but there are 6 download links on that page which is confusing. Also it mentions CD-ROM image which is no longer the norm. I'd just have download development linking to iso, and download linking to get.fedoraproject.org 2. To get to the default instructions for writing the image: http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora (alias for get.fedoraproject.org) http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/16/html/Installation_Guide/Making_USB_Media.html (covers windows) http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/16/html/Installation_Guide/Making_USB_Media-UNIX_Linux.html 3.2.2.1.1. Making Fedora USB Media with a graphical tool This erroneously mentions needing to enable EPEL. I also notice this pulls in lots of QT stuff to a default install (106MB!) So I insert my (existing F17) usb install disk and run the liveusb-creator GUI which outputs Unable to find any USB drives Enabling -v from the command line, gives: Skipping /dev/sdb with unknown filesystem: iso9660 So apparently this tool is a higher level tool and doesn't support a mode where the image is simply written to the device. I'll look at improving the Fedora docs as per the notes above. If you don't recognize the icon in Gnome Shell Overview mode, it can give you quite some work to find it. To be precise, one has to: 1. Click activities 2. Click the hard drive with a green hat on it I agree that's not immediately obvious. So as to solutions: 1. Your suggestion of a persistent panel item is not ideal but better. This is a fine interim solution. 2. The suggestion of an earlier install or boot live option is good too, but a bit more invasive. 3. The suggestion of using notifications may be better but not until notifications are fixed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14z4wdgNF9g cheers, Pádraig. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
* on the Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 12:54:46PM -0500, Chris Adams was commenting: | Once upon a time, Matthias Clasen mcla...@redhat.com said: | That really depends on what use cases we see for our live cds. In my | view, there's really only two: | | The primary use for a live cd is to install. | | That's the primary use of the install media. The primary use of the | live media is to boot a live system. There are significant regions where people only get LiveCDs and not Install CDs - bandwidth, swag handouts at events etc. So, I think placing the icon/text on the top bar (as proposed by the OP), makes things much clearer and obvious. I've gotten so many questions about how to install from the liveCD, that it clearly is something that we should fix and make obvious. Regards. -- Harish Pillay 9v1hp hpil...@redhat.com +65.9636.9253 gpg id: 746809E3 pgpJL8ENLLFkE.pgp Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
The discussion died off, so I'll sum it up: * Almost everyone agreed that current situation is highly unsatisfactory. * We have several ideas how to remedy it, which include: top bar button, notification and welcome screen. * We have just a single implementation, which is the top bar button. Since ideas are cheap and implementations are expensive, I'm going to try to push the current implementation to the default LiveCD desktop. If another implementation appears and is considered superior to the first one, let's replace it. But I want to have at least some solution ready for F17 Final. It might not be the best one, but it's better than having nothing at all. I think the best approach here is to contact anaconda team and ask them to adopt the code. Ideally this would be a part of anaconda. If you have better ideas how to proceed, please let me know. Thanks, Kamil -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Apr 6, 2012, at 9:30 AM, Kamil Paral wrote: I think the best approach here is to contact anaconda team and ask them to adopt the code. Ideally this would be a part of anaconda. I understand anaconda is the installer. But doesn't the livecd-tools / livecd-creator group determine the tools and Ux for the LiveCD? Maybe they should be lobbied? In any event, I agree with the three bullet points. And until better ideas that also have initial implementations to work with, running with the top bar / menu bar option is OK. It'd be nice to get some traction on bug 809499. Chris Murphy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
That is a good idea that can be probably implemented very easily. However, what is the benefit over a persistent button in the top panel? I believe its adequately provides a solution to meet all constraints so far expressed in this discussion. 1) Notice on login with buttons! 2) Automatically hides itself after a few seconds and gets the hell out of the way if you don't want to do an install and really do want to use this live environment. 3) Does not change the delivered UI by adding a new static element that is Fedora install specific. 4) Available in the overview as a reminder until dismissed..allowing for delayed install action. Doesn't it block any other notifications being displayed? Or won't subsequent notifications hide it? If we can keep it displayed until manually dismissed and it won't block any other notifications to pop up, then it seems like a good solution. Otherwise persistent button appeals me more, because it's just there, not running away, you don't need to care why it disappeared and how you can find it again. Design-led software is a nice thing, but up to certain point. Designers did not envision this use case and did not offer any solution. And I'm not surprised. It's a one-time process, so it has to be one-time tweaked. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Apr 4, 2012, at 1:35 AM, Kamil Paral wrote: Doesn't it block any other notifications being displayed? Or won't subsequent notifications hide it? If we can keep it displayed until manually dismissed and it won't block any other notifications to pop up, then it seems like a good solution. Otherwise persistent button appeals me more, because it's just there, not running away, you don't need to care why it disappeared and how you can find it again. Persistance is a very good attribute. Imagine someone plays with the LiveCD, they like it, they play more, like it more, now they want to install - but do we really want them having to reboot to get the notification/message again so they know where to go find the easter egg installer?? Nooo... better have it in a consistent location. In fact, I'd advise both notification/message as well as the persistent menu bar installer option. We are talking about a significant minority of Windows and Mac OS (and maybe some other linux distro) users here. Be inviting. Chris Murphy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
Chris Murphy wrote: The problem is nothing shows up on Gnome 3's desktop, even items in the Desktop folder (which is just...it's asinine there's no polite way to say it.) I agree with that. KDE upstream recently also dropped the default folder view from their default Plasma setup, we (KDE SIG) decided to readd it through our kde-settings package, and in fact this exact issue (the liveinst shortcut on the live CD) was the main reason we did that. (The folder view comes up empty by default after installing the live CD, because there's nothing else in the Desktop folder by default.) Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
Matthias Clasen wrote: So, we decided for F16 that we don't want to add extensions like that to the shell that we ship on the live cd. It should be the default experience. I think that's a very bad (and dogmatic) decision. We should ship what's best for our users (of Fedora), not what's 100% unmodified GNOME. For the 'make installing obvious' problem, what we really want is to just autostart the installer. Unfortunately, the current live installer does not really work well for that... I agree with the other responders who said that that's a horrible and very unhelpful idea. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Tue, 2012-04-03 at 09:55 -0800, Jef Spaleta wrote: On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Nathanael D. Noblet nathan...@gnat.ca wrote: How bout adding/changing the icon for installing? Can we not include some text in the icon? Install Fedora somehow?? Actually... would it make sense to force a notification event about the install option on live CD login? It pops up for a few seconds in the message tray telling you this media can be used for a full install..and then the message lives in the message tray until dismissed. Seems like the point of the message tray to me. Or am I missing the point The one thing that a notification has going for it is that it doesn't really require any design and the implementation is readily available. But a welcome screen which offers to install or run uninstalled makes more sense to me, design-wise. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Apr 3, 2012, at 7:26 AM, Kamil Paral wrote: You can see it here: http://kparal.fedorapeople.org/misc/InstallFedoraButton.png What do you think? Better than default? How about Install Fedora since it could be installed to SSD or iSCSI etc. I personally think it's definitely better than default. The problem is nothing shows up on Gnome 3's desktop, even items in the Desktop folder (which is just...it's asinine there's no polite way to say it.) The present behavior is obscure, especially for new users. And the install icon in the activities drawer, or whatever it's called, doesn't have any text description unless the user mouses over. It's like the installer is an easter egg that the user has to go on a hunt for, and hopefully find it before it rots. Chris Murphy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
