Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Adam Williamson]

On Tue, 2018-02-06 at 13:37 -0500, Przemek Klosowski wrote:
> I am beginning to think that in pursuit of flexibility and increased 
> functionality we end up making systems that are too complex and too hard 
> to discover. Users with cognitive or physical limitations have 
> increasingly harder time negotiating the technology:

s/Users with cognitive or physical limitations/Users/ ...
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
http://www.happyassassin.net
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Przemek Klosowski]

On 02/06/2018 11:53 AM, Howard Howell wrote:

On Mon, 2018-02-05 at 16:39 -0500, Przemek Klosowski wrote:

On 02/05/2018 01:35 PM, Howard Howell wrote:

My eyes hurt after a few hours trying to find the smaller and darker default 
cursors.

Do you know that you can simply increase the size of the cursors?

You are on my hero's list.  Somebody figure out how to make this part
of gnome-tweak-tool, PLEASE, or on the accessibility menu.
We older folk need to support each other; let us start the Fedora 
Grandpa Edition :)


Trigger warning: what follows is a rant from an older person in your 
midst. I don't know what's the right solution to the issues I raise, but 
I do think I have a point. I hope the young developers consider these in 
future design decisions.


I am beginning to think that in pursuit of flexibility and increased 
functionality we end up making systems that are too complex and too hard 
to discover. Users with cognitive or physical limitations have 
increasingly harder time negotiating the technology:


 * My 82-year-old dad  has difficulties operating his iPhone simply
   because there are too many options on it
 * on your stereo, is netflix on Fire, Chromecast, Blueray player or
   cable box?

I do like the functionality when it 'just works' but when it doesn't, 
it's often a debacle. There should be a way to dial back the complexity; 
show less options, etc. The old tradeoff was between simple systems with 
limited functionality, and complex but capable systems. Maybe there's a 
way to have both: annotate OS features by how fancy they are, and 
provide a dial that selects more or less of those advanced features, to 
accommodate both power users and those who want a simple, basic, 
utilitarian system.
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Mathieu Bridon]

On Tue, 2018-02-06 at 08:53 -0800, Howard Howell wrote:
> On Mon, 2018-02-05 at 16:39 -0500, Przemek Klosowski wrote:
> > On 02/05/2018 01:35 PM, Howard Howell wrote:
> > > My eyes hurt
> > > after a few hours trying to find the smaller and darker default
> > > cursors.
> > 
> > Do you know that you can simply increase the size of the cursors?
> > 
> > dconf write /org/gnome/desktop/interface/cursor-size 48
> > 
> > I swear I saw it in one of GNOME GUI tools but I can't find it now 
> > (doesn't seem to be in Settings or Gnome-tweaks)
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> 
> You are on my hero's list.  Somebody figure out how to make this part
> of gnome-tweak-tool, PLEASE, or on the accessibility menu.

In GNOME Settings 3.26.2, go to "Universal Access" then change the
"Cursor Size" option.


-- 
Mathieu
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Howard Howell]

On Mon, 2018-02-05 at 16:39 -0500, Przemek Klosowski wrote:
> On 02/05/2018 01:35 PM, Howard Howell wrote:
> > My eyes hurt
> > after a few hours trying to find the smaller and darker default
> > cursors.
> 
> Do you know that you can simply increase the size of the cursors?
> 
> dconf write /org/gnome/desktop/interface/cursor-size 48
> 
> I swear I saw it in one of GNOME GUI tools but I can't find it now 
> (doesn't seem to be in Settings or Gnome-tweaks)
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You are on my hero's list.  Somebody figure out how to make this part
of gnome-tweak-tool, PLEASE, or on the accessibility menu.

Thank YOU!!!
Les H
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Samuel Sieb]

On 02/05/2018 10:35 AM, Howard Howell wrote:

So far, so good, but I really miss the gamma.gold cursors which
are much easier for me to see and use.

No problems so far.  If it goes one week, I will again attempt
the Gamma.Gold cursors because I need the visibility.  My eyes hurt
after a few hours trying to find the smaller and darker default
cursors.


Maybe try contacting the authors and mention that the theme is 
incomplete.  You could also check yourself to find out which ones are 
missing and make replacements.

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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Przemek Klosowski]

On 02/05/2018 01:35 PM, Howard Howell wrote:

My eyes hurt
after a few hours trying to find the smaller and darker default
cursors.


Do you know that you can simply increase the size of the cursors?

dconf write /org/gnome/desktop/interface/cursor-size 48

I swear I saw it in one of GNOME GUI tools but I can't find it now 
(doesn't seem to be in Settings or Gnome-tweaks)

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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Howard Howell]

On Sat, 2018-02-03 at 22:58 -0800, Samuel Sieb wrote:
> On 02/03/2018 05:58 PM, Howard Howell wrote:
> > Latest finding...
> > running gpartd, which I wanted to use to reformat an SD card for
> > use 
> > with a raspberry PI, drops me out to login immediately.
> > attached is the latest journalctl after the third attempt.
> > I clicked on gpartd at 17:36:14, and ended up logging back in at
> > 17:37:01
> > 
> > I don't know if this helps, but gpartd seems to fire the issue
> > every time.
> 
> Did you try switching the cursor theme back to the default to see if 
> that makes a difference?  Also, be aware that there's an issue with
> the 
> Places menu extension that gets triggered in various ways which might
> be 
> relevant here.
> 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1538493
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Hi, Samuel,
I did switch the cursors back using gnome-tweak-tool.  While
doing that I noticed that there was no selection for the shell theme,
not even the default nor was default or Adwaita available in the pull
down.  I installed the only one I could find from dnf, which was
selene.  Once that was done, the alarm ( a triangle with an "!" in it)
disappeared, and both default and Adwaita appeared in the pull down.  I
selected default.  It appears that the default setup doesn't actually
load the shell theme.

So far, so good, but I really miss the gamma.gold cursors which
are much easier for me to see and use.

No problems so far.  If it goes one week, I will again attempt
the Gamma.Gold cursors because I need the visibility.  My eyes hurt
after a few hours trying to find the smaller and darker default
cursors.

Regards,
Les H
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[David Airlie]

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 12:13 PM, Tomasz Kłoczko 
wrote:

>
> On 1 February 2018 at 01:42, Peter Hutterer 
> wrote:
> [..]
>
>> > So event4 it is in my case touch pad and event5  it is Logitech M185
>> mouse.
>> > In other words: those "libinput bug" log entries looks like are not
>> related
>> > to emitting those short bursts of repeating keystrokes.
>>
>> not directly, but they indicate where the issue is: key repeat is handled
>> in
>> the clients, not in libinput. With delays like this it's easy to see why
>> you
>> would get key repeat - if your key release event is delayed by 300ms or
>> more
>> the client will handle repeats before it gets the events.
>>
>> But the real cause of the issue is that you're getting crazy delays
>> because
>> gnome-shell is too busy with something else. The rest is fallout from
>> that.
>>
>
> So that is quite possible explanation and cause of those delays probably
> is in what I've already described.
> Every few second in kernel messages I have sequence:
>
> [74330.405990] [drm] PCIE gen 2 link speeds already enabled
> [74330.417096] [drm] PCIE GART of 1024M enabled (table at
> 0x00162000).
> [74330.417206] radeon :01:00.0: WB enabled
> [74330.417212] radeon :01:00.0: fence driver on ring 0 use gpu addr
> 0x2c00 and cpu addr 0xd8c75981
> [74330.417216] radeon :01:00.0: fence driver on ring 3 use gpu addr
> 0x2c0c and cpu addr 0x1142ed24
> [74330.417965] radeon :01:00.0: fence driver on ring 5 use gpu addr
> 0x00072118 and cpu addr 0x095357f2
> [74330.434413] [drm] ring test on 0 succeeded in 2 usecs
> [74330.434428] [drm] ring test on 3 succeeded in 7 usecs
> [74330.611793] [drm] ring test on 5 succeeded in 2 usecs
> [74330.611809] [drm] UVD initialized successfully.
> [74330.611949] [drm] ib test on ring 0 succeeded in 0 usecs
> [74330.612118] [drm] ib test on ring 3 succeeded in 0 usecs
> [74331.267267] [drm] ib test on ring 5 succeeded
> [74340.515810] radeon :01:00.0: swiotlb buffer is full (sz: 2097152
> bytes)
> [74340.515819] swiotlb: coherent allocation failed for device :01:00.0
> size=2097152
> [74340.515827] CPU: 0 PID: 27342 Comm: kworker/0:1 Tainted: GW
> 4.15.0-0.rc9.git4.1.fc28.x86_64 #1
> [74340.515832] Hardware name: Sony Corporation VPCSB2M9E/VAIO, BIOS
> R2087H4 06/15/2012
> [74340.515841] Workqueue: pm pm_runtime_work
> [74340.515849] Call Trace:
> [74340.515862]  dump_stack+0x85/0xbf
> [74340.515871]  swiotlb_alloc_coherent+0xe0/0x150
> [74340.515889]  ttm_dma_pool_get_pages+0x21b/0x620 [ttm]
> [74340.515908]  ttm_dma_populate+0x24d/0x340 [ttm]
> [74340.515923]  ttm_bo_move_memcpy+0x185/0x610 [ttm]
> [74340.515933]  ? lock_acquire+0x9f/0x200
> [74340.515940]  ? reservation_object_wait_timeout_rcu+0xb3/0x500
> [74340.515987]  radeon_bo_move+0x1a7/0x220 [radeon]
> [74340.516003]  ttm_bo_handle_move_mem+0x2a4/0x5d0 [ttm]
> [74340.516021]  ttm_bo_evict+0x186/0x370 [ttm]
> [74340.516046]  ttm_mem_evict_first+0x174/0x1d0 [ttm]
> [74340.516060]  ttm_bo_force_list_clean+0x6d/0x130 [ttm]
> [74340.516089]  radeon_suspend_kms+0x11e/0x3e0 [radeon]
> [74340.516103]  ? vga_switcheroo_runtime_resume+0x60/0x60
> [74340.516126]  radeon_pmops_runtime_suspend+0x54/0xc0 [radeon]
> [74340.516135]  pci_pm_runtime_suspend+0x61/0x170
> [74340.516144]  vga_switcheroo_runtime_suspend+0x24/0xa0
> [74340.516151]  __rpm_callback+0xbc/0x1f0
> [74340.516160]  ? vga_switcheroo_runtime_resume+0x60/0x60
> [74340.516168]  rpm_callback+0x1f/0x70
> [74340.516175]  ? vga_switcheroo_runtime_resume+0x60/0x60
> [74340.516181]  rpm_suspend+0x12d/0x6e0
> [74340.516195]  pm_runtime_work+0x73/0xb0
> [74340.516204]  process_one_work+0x249/0x6b0
> [74340.516219]  worker_thread+0x3a/0x390
> [74340.516229]  ? process_one_work+0x6b0/0x6b0
> [74340.516236]  kthread+0x121/0x140
> [74340.516243]  ? kthread_create_worker_on_cpu+0x70/0x70
> [74340.516253]  ret_from_fork+0x3a/0x50
>
> during which whole desktop is frozen for fraction of the second. During
> those freezes it is not possible even to move mouse cursor.
> Do you have idea what it may be?
>

Try booting with radeon.runpm=0

Dave.
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Samuel Sieb]

On 02/03/2018 05:58 PM, Howard Howell wrote:

Latest finding...
running gpartd, which I wanted to use to reformat an SD card for use 
with a raspberry PI, drops me out to login immediately.

attached is the latest journalctl after the third attempt.
I clicked on gpartd at 17:36:14, and ended up logging back in at 17:37:01

I don't know if this helps, but gpartd seems to fire the issue every time.


Did you try switching the cursor theme back to the default to see if 
that makes a difference?  Also, be aware that there's an issue with the 
Places menu extension that gets triggered in various ways which might be 
relevant here.


https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1538493
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Howard Howell]

On Thu, 2018-02-01 at 09:08 -0800, Howard Howell wrote:
> On Wed, 2018-01-31 at 09:43 -0800, Howard Howell wrote:
> > On Wed, 2018-01-31 at 14:14 +0100, Olivier Fourdan wrote:
> > > Hi
> > > 
> > > On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 1:58 PM, Olivier Fourdan  > > .com> wrote:
> > > > Jan 31 01:14:08 school gnome-session[1715]: gnome-session-
> > > > binary[1715]: WARNING: App 'org.gnome.Shell.desktop' exited
> > > > with 
> > > > > Jan 31 01:14:08 school org.gnome.Shell.desktop[1785]: Window
> > > > > manager error: Could not find cursor. Perhaps set
> > > > > XCURSOR_PATH
> > > > 
> > > > Interesting, that could be the problem! gnome-shell is both a
> > > > Wayland compositor (thus the display server) and an X11 window
> > > > manager.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Are you using a custom cursor theme or the default “Adwaita”
> > > cursor theme? 
> > >  
> > > > I think we should keep those discussions, including these
> > > > important bits, in the issue you filed upstream (https://gitlab
> > > > gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/issues/9) and not in a downstream
> > > > mailing list :)
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > And... I got confused by multiple issues being reported in the
> > > same mail thread, that issue was filed by Przemek, so probably
> > > different from yours...
> > > 
> > > Cheers,
> > > Olivier
> > > 
> > OK!  I did change the cursor theme.  According to gnome-tweak-tool, 
> > it is Gamma.Gold.  I have some vision problems and this looked good
> > to me.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Les H
> > ___
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> I replied back to this message because the laters ones all are either
> mine or another thread within this topic...
> Olivier,
>   I left my system logged in, and several journal entries occured
> while I slept.  Then today there are lots of messages about
> evolution. And after being on the system for only 20 minutes, I got
> logged off again.
> 
>   I captured the messages to a file (744 lines)  and have
> attached it here.
> 
> Regards,
> Les H
> ___
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Latest finding...
running gpartd, which I wanted to use to reformat an SD card for use
with a raspberry PI, drops me out to login immediately.
attached is the latest journalctl after the third attempt.
I clicked on gpartd at 17:36:14, and ended up logging back in at
17:37:01

I don't know if this helps, but gpartd seems to fire the issue every
time.

Regards,
Les HFeb 01 02:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 01 02:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 01 02:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 01 02:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f836b50
Feb 01 02:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 01 02:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f836b50
Feb 01 02:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f836b50
Feb 01 02:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f836b50
Feb 01 03:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f836b50
Feb 01 03:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f836b50
Feb 01 03:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f836b50
Feb 01 03:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f836b50
Feb 01 03:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 01 03:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 01 03:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 01 03:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 01 04:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 01 04:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 01 04:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 01 04:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 01 04:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate 

Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Howard Howell]

On Wed, 2018-01-31 at 09:43 -0800, Howard Howell wrote:
> On Wed, 2018-01-31 at 14:14 +0100, Olivier Fourdan wrote:
> > Hi
> > 
> > On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 1:58 PM, Olivier Fourdan  > om> wrote:
> > > Jan 31 01:14:08 school gnome-session[1715]: gnome-session-
> > > binary[1715]: WARNING: App 'org.gnome.Shell.desktop' exited with 
> > > > Jan 31 01:14:08 school org.gnome.Shell.desktop[1785]: Window
> > > > manager error: Could not find cursor. Perhaps set XCURSOR_PATH
> > > 
> > > Interesting, that could be the problem! gnome-shell is both a
> > > Wayland compositor (thus the display server) and an X11 window
> > > manager.
> > > 
> > 
> > Are you using a custom cursor theme or the default “Adwaita” cursor
> > theme? 
> >  
> > > I think we should keep those discussions, including these
> > > important bits, in the issue you filed upstream (https://gitlabgn
> > > ome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/issues/9) and not in a downstream
> > > mailing list :)
> > > 
> > 
> > And... I got confused by multiple issues being reported in the same
> > mail thread, that issue was filed by Przemek, so probably different
> > from yours...
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Olivier
> > 
> OK!  I did change the cursor theme.  According to gnome-tweak-tool,
> it is Gamma.Gold.  I have some vision problems and this looked good
> to me.
> 
> Regards,
> Les H
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I replied back to this message because the laters ones all are either
mine or another thread within this topic...
Olivier,
I left my system logged in, and several journal entries occured
while I slept.  Then today there are lots of messages about evolution.
And after being on the system for only 20 minutes, I got logged off
again.

I captured the messages to a file (744 lines)  and have
attached it here.

Regards,
Les HFeb 01 02:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 01 02:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 01 02:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 01 02:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f836b50
Feb 01 02:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 01 02:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f836b50
Feb 01 02:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f836b50
Feb 01 02:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f836b50
Feb 01 03:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f836b50
Feb 01 03:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f836b50
Feb 01 03:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f836b50
Feb 01 03:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f836b50
Feb 01 03:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 01 03:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 01 03:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 01 03:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 01 04:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 01 04:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 01 04:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 01 04:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 01 04:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f836b50
Feb 01 04:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f836b50
Feb 01 04:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f836b50
Feb 01 04:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f836b50
Feb 01 05:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 01 05:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 01 05:19:43 school gsd-housekeepin[2069]: Failed to enumerate children of 
/var/tmp/systemd-private-06b6f83
Feb 

Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Tomasz Kłoczko]

On 1 February 2018 at 01:42, Peter Hutterer 
wrote:
[..]

> > So event4 it is in my case touch pad and event5  it is Logitech M185
> mouse.
> > In other words: those "libinput bug" log entries looks like are not
> related
> > to emitting those short bursts of repeating keystrokes.
>
> not directly, but they indicate where the issue is: key repeat is handled
> in
> the clients, not in libinput. With delays like this it's easy to see why
> you
> would get key repeat - if your key release event is delayed by 300ms or
> more
> the client will handle repeats before it gets the events.
>
> But the real cause of the issue is that you're getting crazy delays because
> gnome-shell is too busy with something else. The rest is fallout from that.
>

So that is quite possible explanation and cause of those delays probably is
in what I've already described.
Every few second in kernel messages I have sequence:

[74330.405990] [drm] PCIE gen 2 link speeds already enabled
[74330.417096] [drm] PCIE GART of 1024M enabled (table at
0x00162000).
[74330.417206] radeon :01:00.0: WB enabled
[74330.417212] radeon :01:00.0: fence driver on ring 0 use gpu addr
0x2c00 and cpu addr 0xd8c75981
[74330.417216] radeon :01:00.0: fence driver on ring 3 use gpu addr
0x2c0c and cpu addr 0x1142ed24
[74330.417965] radeon :01:00.0: fence driver on ring 5 use gpu addr
0x00072118 and cpu addr 0x095357f2
[74330.434413] [drm] ring test on 0 succeeded in 2 usecs
[74330.434428] [drm] ring test on 3 succeeded in 7 usecs
[74330.611793] [drm] ring test on 5 succeeded in 2 usecs
[74330.611809] [drm] UVD initialized successfully.
[74330.611949] [drm] ib test on ring 0 succeeded in 0 usecs
[74330.612118] [drm] ib test on ring 3 succeeded in 0 usecs
[74331.267267] [drm] ib test on ring 5 succeeded
[74340.515810] radeon :01:00.0: swiotlb buffer is full (sz: 2097152
bytes)
[74340.515819] swiotlb: coherent allocation failed for device :01:00.0
size=2097152
[74340.515827] CPU: 0 PID: 27342 Comm: kworker/0:1 Tainted: GW
  4.15.0-0.rc9.git4.1.fc28.x86_64 #1
[74340.515832] Hardware name: Sony Corporation VPCSB2M9E/VAIO, BIOS R2087H4
06/15/2012
[74340.515841] Workqueue: pm pm_runtime_work
[74340.515849] Call Trace:
[74340.515862]  dump_stack+0x85/0xbf
[74340.515871]  swiotlb_alloc_coherent+0xe0/0x150
[74340.515889]  ttm_dma_pool_get_pages+0x21b/0x620 [ttm]
[74340.515908]  ttm_dma_populate+0x24d/0x340 [ttm]
[74340.515923]  ttm_bo_move_memcpy+0x185/0x610 [ttm]
[74340.515933]  ? lock_acquire+0x9f/0x200
[74340.515940]  ? reservation_object_wait_timeout_rcu+0xb3/0x500
[74340.515987]  radeon_bo_move+0x1a7/0x220 [radeon]
[74340.516003]  ttm_bo_handle_move_mem+0x2a4/0x5d0 [ttm]
[74340.516021]  ttm_bo_evict+0x186/0x370 [ttm]
[74340.516046]  ttm_mem_evict_first+0x174/0x1d0 [ttm]
[74340.516060]  ttm_bo_force_list_clean+0x6d/0x130 [ttm]
[74340.516089]  radeon_suspend_kms+0x11e/0x3e0 [radeon]
[74340.516103]  ? vga_switcheroo_runtime_resume+0x60/0x60
[74340.516126]  radeon_pmops_runtime_suspend+0x54/0xc0 [radeon]
[74340.516135]  pci_pm_runtime_suspend+0x61/0x170
[74340.516144]  vga_switcheroo_runtime_suspend+0x24/0xa0
[74340.516151]  __rpm_callback+0xbc/0x1f0
[74340.516160]  ? vga_switcheroo_runtime_resume+0x60/0x60
[74340.516168]  rpm_callback+0x1f/0x70
[74340.516175]  ? vga_switcheroo_runtime_resume+0x60/0x60
[74340.516181]  rpm_suspend+0x12d/0x6e0
[74340.516195]  pm_runtime_work+0x73/0xb0
[74340.516204]  process_one_work+0x249/0x6b0
[74340.516219]  worker_thread+0x3a/0x390
[74340.516229]  ? process_one_work+0x6b0/0x6b0
[74340.516236]  kthread+0x121/0x140
[74340.516243]  ? kthread_create_worker_on_cpu+0x70/0x70
[74340.516253]  ret_from_fork+0x3a/0x50

during which whole desktop is frozen for fraction of the second. During
those freezes it is not possible even to move mouse cursor.
Do you have idea what it may be?

# lspci | grep VGA
00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation 2nd Generation Core
Processor Family Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 09)
01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]
Seymour [Radeon HD 6400M/7400M Series] (rev ff)

kloczek
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Peter Hutterer]

On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 10:18:14PM +, Tomasz Kłoczko wrote:
> On 31 January 2018 at 22:09, Tomasz Kłoczko 
> wrote:
> [..]
> 
> > Why I think that it may be related to libinput? Because in logs I see as
> > well another type of entries:
> >
> > #  journalctl -xe | grep libinput
> > Jan 31 21:55:18 domek org.gnome.Shell.desktop[2153]: libinput error:
> > libinput bug: timer event5 debounce: offset negative (-354ms)
> > Jan 31 21:55:18 domek org.gnome.Shell.desktop[2153]: libinput error:
> > libinput bug: timer event5 debounce short: offset negative (-368ms)
> > Jan 31 21:56:27 domek org.gnome.Shell.desktop[2153]: libinput error:
> > libinput bug: timer event5 debounce: offset negative (-1107ms)
> > Jan 31 21:56:27 domek org.gnome.Shell.desktop[2153]: libinput error:
> > libinput bug: timer event5 debounce short: offset negative (-1120ms)
> > Jan 31 22:05:12 domek org.gnome.Shell.desktop[2153]: libinput error:
> > libinput bug: timer event4 keyboard: offset negative (-331ms)
> > Jan 31 22:06:05 domek org.gnome.Shell.desktop[2153]: libinput error:
> > libinput bug: timer event4 keyboard: offset negative (-750ms)
> > Jan 31 22:06:05 domek org.gnome.Shell.desktop[2153]: libinput error:
> > libinput bug: timer event4 keyboard: offset negative (-413ms)

timer offset bugs almost always mean that libinput_dispatch() isn't called
quickly enough when its fd triggers. We rely on the compositor for that, so
you can blame gnome shell here.

Internally, libinput uses event timestamps and uses them for timers (e.g.
tap timer, debouncing, etc.). Let's assume an event happens, our timeout is
150ms but it takes 500ms after the event before calling libinput_dispatch(),
the timer offset is now 350ms in the past - that's what libinput warns about.

It's not a killer but it does mean that whatever libinput was trying to do
won't work correctly. In your case, the 'keyboard' timer is the one used in
disable-while-typing. So expect that not to work correctly.

Also: the keyboard timer is 500ms, and you have a neg. offset of 750ms. This
is a delay of 1250ms, that's crazy! Something's hogging gnome shell here and
it doesn't get to handle input.

> Correction:
> 
> # libinput list-devices | grep ^Device -A1
> Device:   Video Bus
> Kernel:   /dev/input/event7
> --
> Device:   Sony Vaio Jogdial
> Kernel:   /dev/input/event9
> --
> Device:   Sony Vaio Keys
> Kernel:   /dev/input/event8
> --
> Device:   Video Bus
> Kernel:   /dev/input/event6
> --
> Device:   Power Button
> Kernel:   /dev/input/event1
> --
> Device:   Lid Switch
> Kernel:   /dev/input/event0
> --
> Device:   USB 2.0 Camera: USB Camera
> Kernel:   /dev/input/event13
> --
> Device:   HDA Intel PCH Headphone
> Kernel:   /dev/input/event10
> --
> Device:   HDA Intel PCH HDMI/DP,pcm=3
> Kernel:   /dev/input/event11
> --
> Device:   HDA Intel PCH HDMI/DP,pcm=7
> Kernel:   /dev/input/event12
> --
> Device:   Logitech M185
> Kernel:   /dev/input/event5
> --
> Device:   CD002 CD002
> Kernel:   /dev/input/event3
> --
> Device:   AT Translated Set 2 keyboard
> Kernel:   /dev/input/event2
> --
> Device:   AlpsPS/2 ALPS GlidePoint
> Kernel:   /dev/input/event4
> 
> So event4 it is in my case touch pad and event5  it is Logitech M185 mouse.
> In other words: those "libinput bug" log entries looks like are not related
> to emitting those short bursts of repeating keystrokes.
 
not directly, but they indicate where the issue is: key repeat is handled in
the clients, not in libinput. With delays like this it's easy to see why you
would get key repeat - if your key release event is delayed by 300ms or more
the client will handle repeats before it gets the events.

But the real cause of the issue is that you're getting crazy delays because
gnome-shell is too busy with something else. The rest is fallout from that.

Cheers,
   Peter
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Tomasz Kłoczko]

On 31 January 2018 at 22:09, Tomasz Kłoczko 
wrote:
[..]

> Why I think that it may be related to libinput? Because in logs I see as
> well another type of entries:
>
> #  journalctl -xe | grep libinput
> Jan 31 21:55:18 domek org.gnome.Shell.desktop[2153]: libinput error:
> libinput bug: timer event5 debounce: offset negative (-354ms)
> Jan 31 21:55:18 domek org.gnome.Shell.desktop[2153]: libinput error:
> libinput bug: timer event5 debounce short: offset negative (-368ms)
> Jan 31 21:56:27 domek org.gnome.Shell.desktop[2153]: libinput error:
> libinput bug: timer event5 debounce: offset negative (-1107ms)
> Jan 31 21:56:27 domek org.gnome.Shell.desktop[2153]: libinput error:
> libinput bug: timer event5 debounce short: offset negative (-1120ms)
> Jan 31 22:05:12 domek org.gnome.Shell.desktop[2153]: libinput error:
> libinput bug: timer event4 keyboard: offset negative (-331ms)
> Jan 31 22:06:05 domek org.gnome.Shell.desktop[2153]: libinput error:
> libinput bug: timer event4 keyboard: offset negative (-750ms)
> Jan 31 22:06:05 domek org.gnome.Shell.desktop[2153]: libinput error:
> libinput bug: timer event4 keyboard: offset negative (-413ms)
>

Correction:

# libinput list-devices | grep ^Device -A1
Device:   Video Bus
Kernel:   /dev/input/event7
--
Device:   Sony Vaio Jogdial
Kernel:   /dev/input/event9
--
Device:   Sony Vaio Keys
Kernel:   /dev/input/event8
--
Device:   Video Bus
Kernel:   /dev/input/event6
--
Device:   Power Button
Kernel:   /dev/input/event1
--
Device:   Lid Switch
Kernel:   /dev/input/event0
--
Device:   USB 2.0 Camera: USB Camera
Kernel:   /dev/input/event13
--
Device:   HDA Intel PCH Headphone
Kernel:   /dev/input/event10
--
Device:   HDA Intel PCH HDMI/DP,pcm=3
Kernel:   /dev/input/event11
--
Device:   HDA Intel PCH HDMI/DP,pcm=7
Kernel:   /dev/input/event12
--
Device:   Logitech M185
Kernel:   /dev/input/event5
--
Device:   CD002 CD002
Kernel:   /dev/input/event3
--
Device:   AT Translated Set 2 keyboard
Kernel:   /dev/input/event2
--
Device:   AlpsPS/2 ALPS GlidePoint
Kernel:   /dev/input/event4

So event4 it is in my case touch pad and event5  it is Logitech M185 mouse.
In other words: those "libinput bug" log entries looks like are not related
to emitting those short bursts of repeating keystrokes.

kloczek
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Tomasz Kłoczko]

On 31 January 2018 at 21:00, Tomasz Torcz ️  wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 01:37:15PM +, Tomasz Kłoczko wrote:
> > After update today to latest rawhide and reboot I'v decided to change GUI
> > from X11 to Wyland.
> > In logs I see similar entries like above.
> >
> > Additionally what I found so far after few hours:
> >
> > 1) sometimes pressing single key is causing to generate many keystrokes.
> > Very annoying ..
> >   I had such effect at least 10 times in last hour. Looks like some
> > libinput effect.
>
>   This one is a peculiarity of GNOME Terminal; I've reported it over a
> decade ago: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=354329
>   I don't think it's related to Wayland or libinput.
>

I see this mainly in chrome and polari.
In less than 24h of using Weyland so far I've not been able to observe this
with gnome-terminal.
Looks like this effect is not limited to only one application.
As I wrote I don't see this repeating keystrokes effect under X11.

Why I think that it may be related to libinput? Because in logs I see as
well another type of entries:

#  journalctl -xe | grep libinput
Jan 31 21:55:18 domek org.gnome.Shell.desktop[2153]: libinput error:
libinput bug: timer event5 debounce: offset negative (-354ms)
Jan 31 21:55:18 domek org.gnome.Shell.desktop[2153]: libinput error:
libinput bug: timer event5 debounce short: offset negative (-368ms)
Jan 31 21:56:27 domek org.gnome.Shell.desktop[2153]: libinput error:
libinput bug: timer event5 debounce: offset negative (-1107ms)
Jan 31 21:56:27 domek org.gnome.Shell.desktop[2153]: libinput error:
libinput bug: timer event5 debounce short: offset negative (-1120ms)
Jan 31 22:05:12 domek org.gnome.Shell.desktop[2153]: libinput error:
libinput bug: timer event4 keyboard: offset negative (-331ms)
Jan 31 22:06:05 domek org.gnome.Shell.desktop[2153]: libinput error:
libinput bug: timer event4 keyboard: offset negative (-750ms)
Jan 31 22:06:05 domek org.gnome.Shell.desktop[2153]: libinput error:
libinput bug: timer event4 keyboard: offset negative (-413ms)


kloczek
-- 
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>
> --
> Tomasz Torcz   72->|
>  80->|
> xmpp: zdzich...@chrome.pl  72->|
>  80->|
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Tomasz Torcz ️]

On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 01:37:15PM +, Tomasz Kłoczko wrote:
> After update today to latest rawhide and reboot I'v decided to change GUI
> from X11 to Wyland.
> In logs I see similar entries like above.
> 
> Additionally what I found so far after few hours:
> 
> 1) sometimes pressing single key is causing to generate many keystrokes.
> Very annoying ..
>   I had such effect at least 10 times in last hour. Looks like some
> libinput effect.

  This one is a peculiarity of GNOME Terminal; I've reported it over a
decade ago: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=354329
  I don't think it's related to Wayland or libinput.

-- 
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xmpp: zdzich...@chrome.pl  72->|   80->|
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Re: Re: Wyland is a disaster

[nicolas . mailhot]

> 1) sometimes pressing single key is causing to generate many keystrokes.
> Very annoying ..

That can get more than annoying when it combines with the inverse effect: 
eating keystrokes and refusing to output them (sometimes regurgitating parts of 
what it ate as few seconds later in the middle of something else you're typing)

Though that seems to happen mostly when I use a wireless logitech keyboard, not 
with the built-in laptop keyboard

Visibly input is not baked yet in Wayland

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Mailhot
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Howard Howell]

On Wed, 2018-01-31 at 14:14 +0100, Olivier Fourdan wrote:
> Hi
> 
> On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 1:58 PM, Olivier Fourdan  > wrote:
> > Jan 31 01:14:08 school gnome-session[1715]: gnome-session-
> > binary[1715]: WARNING: App 'org.gnome.Shell.desktop' exited with 
> > > Jan 31 01:14:08 school org.gnome.Shell.desktop[1785]: Window
> > > manager error: Could not find cursor. Perhaps set XCURSOR_PATH
> > 
> > Interesting, that could be the problem! gnome-shell is both a
> > Wayland compositor (thus the display server) and an X11 window
> > manager.
> > 
> 
> Are you using a custom cursor theme or the default “Adwaita” cursor
> theme? 
>  
> > I think we should keep those discussions, including these important
> > bits, in the issue you filed upstream (https://gitlabgnome.org/GNOM
> > E/gnome-shell/issues/9) and not in a downstream mailing list :)
> > 
> 
> And... I got confused by multiple issues being reported in the same
> mail thread, that issue was filed by Przemek, so probably different
> from yours...
> 
> Cheers,
> Olivier
> 
OK!  I did change the cursor theme.  According to gnome-tweak-tool, it
is Gamma.Gold.  I have some vision problems and this looked good to me.

Regards,
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Howard Howell]

On Wed, 2018-01-31 at 13:58 +0100, Olivier Fourdan wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> What you logs tells is:
> 
> On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 10:37 AM, Howard Howell  > wrote:
> > Jan 31 01:14:08 school evolution-alarm[2297]: Error reading events
> > from display: Broken pipeJan 31 01:14:08 school gnome-
> > software[2301]: Error reading events from display: Broken pipe
> 
> Wayland native applications exiting with broken pipe, means the
> Wayland compositor (gnome-shell is dead)
>  
> > Jan 31 01:14:08 school gnome-session-binary[1715]: WARNING: App
> > 'org.gnome.Shell.desktop' exited with code 1
> 
> gnome-session tells us that gnome-shell is gone
>  
> > Jan 31 01:14:08 school gnome-session[1715]: gnome-session-
> > binary[1715]: WARNING: App 'org.gnome.Shell.desktop' exited with 
> > Jan 31 01:14:08 school org.gnome.Shell.desktop[1785]: Window
> > manager error: Could not find cursor. Perhaps set XCURSOR_PATH
> 
> Interesting, that could be the problem! gnome-shell is both a Wayland
> compositor (thus the display server) and an X11 window manager.
>  
> > Jan 31 01:14:08 school org.gnome.Shell.desktop[1785]: Fatal server
> > error:
> > Jan 31 01:14:08 school org.gnome.Shell.desktop[1785]: (EE) failed
> > to read Wayland events: Broken pipe
> > Jan 31 01:14:08 school org.gnome.Shell.desktop[1785]: (EE)
> 
> Then Xwayland exits with “broken pipe”, like the other Wayland
> clients, because the Wayland compositor is, well ,dead.
>  
> > Jan 31 01:14:08 school gnome-session-binary[1715]: Unrecoverable
> > failure in required component org.gnome.Shell.desktop
> 
> gnome-session says something goes really wrong...
>  
> > Jan 31 01:14:08 school
> > org.gnome.SettingsDaemon.MediaKeys.desktop[2048]:
> > xcb_connection_has_error() returned true
> > Jan 31 01:14:08 school gsd-housekeepin[2045]: gsd-housekeeping:
> > Fatal IO error 11 (Resource temporarily unavailable) on X s
> > Jan 31 01:14:08 school gsd-print-notif[2013]: gsd-print-
> > notifications: Fatal IO error 11 (Resource temporarily unavailable)
> > Jan 31 01:14:08 school at-spi-bus-launcher[1825]: XIO:  fatal IO
> > error 11 (Resource temporarily unavailable) on X server ":
> >  ESCOC
> 
> And now, the X11 clients (hence depending on the X server, thus
> Xwayland) all quit as well, because the X server (Xwayland) is dead,
> because the Wayland compositor is dead...
>  
> > This doesn't tell me anything, but I'll bet some of you systems
> > guys can see through it to see the root cause, or at least a good
> > trail to follow.
> 
> I think we should keep those discussions, including these important
> bits, in the issue you filed upstream (https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME
> /gnome-shell/issues/9) and not in a downstream mailing list :)
> 
> Cheers,
> Olivier
> 
> 
> 
Do you want me to repost at that address?
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Tomasz Kłoczko]

On 31 January 2018 at 09:37, Howard Howell  wrote:
[..]

> Well, Journalctl shows the following.
> Jan 31 00:00:00 school evolution-alarm[2297]:
> /builddir/build/BUILD/evolution-3.24.6/src/calendar/alarm-
> notify/alarm.c:251:
> Jan 31 00:19:56 school sol.desktop[24828]: xkbcommon: ERROR: Key ""
> added to modifier map for multiple modifiers; Usi
> Jan 31 00:59:38 school gsd-housekeepin[2045]: Failed to enumerate children
> of /var/tmp/systemd-private-3d6dfe8707be46aa9187
> Jan 31 00:59:38 school gsd-housekeepin[2045]: Failed to enumerate children
> of /var/tmp/systemd-private-3d6dfe8707be46aa9187
> Jan 31 00:59:38 school gsd-housekeepin[2045]: Failed to enumerate children
> of /var/tmp/systemd-private-3d6dfe8707be46aa9187
> Jan 31 00:59:38 school gsd-housekeepin[2045]: Failed to enumerate children
> of /var/tmp/systemd-private-3d6dfe8707be46aa9187
> Jan 31 00:59:38 school gsd-housekeepin[2045]: Failed to enumerate children
> of /tmp/systemd-private-3d6dfe8707be46aa9187e85e
> Jan 31 00:59:38 school gsd-housekeepin[2045]: Failed to enumerate children
> of /tmp/systemd-private-3d6dfe8707be46aa9187e85e
> Jan 31 00:59:38 school gsd-housekeepin[2045]: Failed to enumerate children
> of /tmp/systemd-private-3d6dfe8707be46aa9187e85e
> Jan 31 00:59:38 school gsd-housekeepin[2045]: Failed to enumerate children
> of /tmp/systemd-private-3d6dfe8707be46aa9187e85e
> Jan 31 01:09:51 school org.gnome.Calculator.desktop[25129]: xkbcommon:
> ERROR: Key "" added to modifier map for multip
> Jan 31 01:10:45 school gnome-calculato[25129]: gtk_container_remove:
> assertion 'GTK_IS_WIDGET (widget)' failed
> Jan 31 01:14:08 school evolution-alarm[2297]: Error reading events from
> display: Broken pipe
> Jan 31 01:14:08 school gnome-software[2301]: Error reading events from
> display: Broken pipe
> Jan 31 01:14:08 school gnome-session-binary[1715]: WARNING: App
> 'org.gnome.Shell.desktop' exited with code 1
> Jan 31 01:14:08 school gnome-session[1715]: gnome-session-binary[1715]:
> WARNING: App 'org.gnome.Shell.desktop' exited with
> Jan 31 01:14:08 school org.gnome.Shell.desktop[1785]: Window manager
> error: Could not find cursor. Perhaps set XCURSOR_PATH
> Jan 31 01:14:08 school org.gnome.Shell.desktop[1785]: Fatal server error:
> Jan 31 01:14:08 school org.gnome.Shell.desktop[1785]: (EE) failed to read
> Wayland events: Broken pipe
> Jan 31 01:14:08 school org.gnome.Shell.desktop[1785]: (EE)
> Jan 31 01:14:08 school gnome-session-binary[1715]: Unrecoverable failure
> in required component org.gnome.Shell.desktop
> Jan 31 01:14:08 school org.gnome.SettingsDaemon.MediaKeys.desktop[2048]:
> xcb_connection_has_error() returned true
> Jan 31 01:14:08 school gsd-housekeepin[2045]: gsd-housekeeping: Fatal IO
> error 11 (Resource temporarily unavailable) on X s
> Jan 31 01:14:08 school gsd-print-notif[2013]: gsd-print-notifications:
> Fatal IO error 11 (Resource temporarily unavailable)
> Jan 31 01:14:08 school at-spi-bus-launcher[1825]: XIO:  fatal IO error 11
> (Resource temporarily unavailable) on X server ":
>  ESCOC
>
> This doesn't tell me anything, but I'll bet some of you systems guys can
> see through it to see the root cause, or at least a good trail to follow.
>

After update today to latest rawhide and reboot I'v decided to change GUI
from X11 to Wyland.
In logs I see similar entries like above.

Additionally what I found so far after few hours:

1) sometimes pressing single key is causing to generate many keystrokes.
Very annoying ..
  I had such effect at least 10 times in last hour. Looks like some
libinput effect.

2) I have wireless Logitech mouse and when I'm moving mouse cursor after at
least few seconds whole desktop stops for about 0.5 to less than second
(with mouse cursor as well) and each time after this in dmesg I see
sequence of lines like:

[26683.059926] [drm] PCIE gen 2 link speeds already enabled
[26683.069526] [drm] PCIE GART of 1024M enabled (table at
0x00162000).
[26683.069637] radeon :01:00.0: WB enabled
[26683.069642] radeon :01:00.0: fence driver on ring 0 use gpu addr
0x2c00 and cpu addr 0xd8c75981
[26683.069646] radeon :01:00.0: fence driver on ring 3 use gpu addr
0x2c0c and cpu addr 0x1142ed24
[26683.070395] radeon :01:00.0: fence driver on ring 5 use gpu addr
0x00072118 and cpu addr 0x095357f2
[26683.086835] [drm] ring test on 0 succeeded in 2 usecs
[26683.086851] [drm] ring test on 3 succeeded in 7 usecs
[26683.264201] [drm] ring test on 5 succeeded in 2 usecs
[26683.264214] [drm] UVD initialized successfully.
[26683.264346] [drm] ib test on ring 0 succeeded in 0 usecs
[26683.264481] [drm] ib test on ring 3 succeeded in 0 usecs
[26683.919712] [drm] ib test on ring 5 succeeded

Every few times of such sequence additionally I have:

[26815.820342] radeon :01:00.0: swiotlb buffer is full (sz: 2097152
bytes)
[26815.820349] swiotlb: coherent allocation failed for device :01:00.0

Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Olivier Fourdan]

Hi

On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 1:58 PM, Olivier Fourdan 
wrote:

> Jan 31 01:14:08 school gnome-session[1715]: gnome-session-binary[1715]:
> WARNING: App 'org.gnome.Shell.desktop' exited with
>
>> Jan 31 01:14:08 school org.gnome.Shell.desktop[1785]: Window manager
>> error: Could not find cursor. Perhaps set XCURSOR_PATH
>>
>
> Interesting, that could be the problem! gnome-shell is both a Wayland
> compositor (thus the display server) and an X11 window manager.
>

Are you using a custom cursor theme or the default “Adwaita” cursor theme?


> I think we should keep those discussions, including these important bits,
> in the issue you filed upstream (https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOM
> E/gnome-shell/issues/9) and not in a downstream mailing list :)
>

And... I got confused by multiple issues being reported in the same mail
thread, that issue was filed by Przemek, so probably different from yours...

Cheers,
Olivier
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Olivier Fourdan]

Hi,

What you logs tells is:

On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 10:37 AM, Howard Howell 
wrote:

> Jan 31 01:14:08 school evolution-alarm[2297]: Error reading events from
> display: Broken pipe
> Jan 31 01:14:08 school gnome-software[2301]: Error reading events from
> display: Broken pipe
>

Wayland native applications exiting with broken pipe, means the Wayland
compositor (gnome-shell is dead)


> Jan 31 01:14:08 school gnome-session-binary[1715]: WARNING: App
> 'org.gnome.Shell.desktop' exited with code 1
>

gnome-session tells us that gnome-shell is gone


> Jan 31 01:14:08 school gnome-session[1715]: gnome-session-binary[1715]:
> WARNING: App 'org.gnome.Shell.desktop' exited with
> Jan 31 01:14:08 school org.gnome.Shell.desktop[1785]: Window manager
> error: Could not find cursor. Perhaps set XCURSOR_PATH
>

Interesting, that could be the problem! gnome-shell is both a Wayland
compositor (thus the display server) and an X11 window manager.


> Jan 31 01:14:08 school org.gnome.Shell.desktop[1785]: Fatal server error:
> Jan 31 01:14:08 school org.gnome.Shell.desktop[1785]: (EE) failed to read
> Wayland events: Broken pipe
> Jan 31 01:14:08 school org.gnome.Shell.desktop[1785]: (EE)
>

Then Xwayland exits with “broken pipe”, like the other Wayland clients,
because the Wayland compositor is, well ,dead.


> Jan 31 01:14:08 school gnome-session-binary[1715]: Unrecoverable failure
> in required component org.gnome.Shell.desktop
>

gnome-session says something goes really wrong...


> Jan 31 01:14:08 school org.gnome.SettingsDaemon.MediaKeys.desktop[2048]:
> xcb_connection_has_error() returned true
> Jan 31 01:14:08 school gsd-housekeepin[2045]: gsd-housekeeping: Fatal IO
> error 11 (Resource temporarily unavailable) on X s
> Jan 31 01:14:08 school gsd-print-notif[2013]: gsd-print-notifications:
> Fatal IO error 11 (Resource temporarily unavailable)
> Jan 31 01:14:08 school at-spi-bus-launcher[1825]: XIO:  fatal IO error 11
> (Resource temporarily unavailable) on X server ":
>  ESCOC
>

And now, the X11 clients (hence depending on the X server, thus Xwayland)
all quit as well, because the X server (Xwayland) is dead, because the
Wayland compositor is dead...


> This doesn't tell me anything, but I'll bet some of you systems guys can
> see through it to see the root cause, or at least a good trail to follow.
>

I think we should keep those discussions, including these important bits,
in the issue you filed upstream (
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/issues/9) and not in a
downstream mailing list :)

Cheers,
Olivier
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Howard Howell]

On Wed, 2018-01-31 at 01:28 -0800, Howard Howell wrote:
> On Tue, 2018-01-30 at 10:15 -0800, Howard Howell wrote:
> > On Tue, 2018-01-30 at 10:49 -0500, Przemek Klosowski wrote:
> > > On 01/29/2018 09:33 PM, mcatanz...@gnome.org wrote:
> > > > Please see my earlier post in this thread regarding how to get
> > > > a 
> > > > stacktrace out of coredumpctl
> > > 
> > > This is a great debugging harness; thanks for pointing it out as
> > > I 
> > > didn't know about it.
> > > 
> > > I am currently reporting my pan-crashing-Wayland crashing issue
> > > on 
> > > gnome.org---but in the true Heisenbug fashion it stopped
> > > crashing,
> > > so
> > > I 
> > > can't reproduce it now. It was crashing almost every time I used
> > > the
> > > pan 
> > > newsreader (the three crash dumps I submitted were just few days
> > > apart 
> > > in my coredumpctl records), but now they're as solid as rock.
> > > 
> > > I have to say that the GNOME developers responded almost
> > > immediately, 
> > > and I feel stupid for not being able to demonstrate replication.
> > > I
> > > am 
> > > really curious about the nature of this bug: it must be some
> > > weird 
> > > interaction---perhaps related to memory use or something like
> > > that.
> > > ___
> > > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-
> > > le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > 
> > I had the same experience.  I loaded all the tools that were
> > recommended, and the crashes seem to have stopped ( that is no
> > crashes
> > since I loaded all the tools.) Maybe there is a hidden fix in the
> > debug
> > stuff.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Les H
> > ___
> > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> 
> spoke too soon.  Just got logged out.  Had just finished looking up
> some info on bitcoin on the web, then closed the browser, moved the
> mouse toward the top annunciation in the top banner of the desktop. 
> Screen went dark and dropped me out to the login window.
> 
> Checking logs and backtrace to see if I can find anything useful...
> Later post if I do.
> 
> Regards,
> Les H
> ___
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Well, Journalctl shows the following.  
Jan 31 00:00:00 school evolution-alarm[2297]:
/builddir/build/BUILD/evolution-3.24.6/src/calendar/alarm-
notify/alarm.c:251:
Jan 31 00:19:56 school sol.desktop[24828]: xkbcommon: ERROR: Key
"" added to modifier map for multiple modifiers; Usi
Jan 31 00:59:38 school gsd-housekeepin[2045]: Failed to enumerate
children of /var/tmp/systemd-private-3d6dfe8707be46aa9187
Jan 31 00:59:38 school gsd-housekeepin[2045]: Failed to enumerate
children of /var/tmp/systemd-private-3d6dfe8707be46aa9187
Jan 31 00:59:38 school gsd-housekeepin[2045]: Failed to enumerate
children of /var/tmp/systemd-private-3d6dfe8707be46aa9187
Jan 31 00:59:38 school gsd-housekeepin[2045]: Failed to enumerate
children of /var/tmp/systemd-private-3d6dfe8707be46aa9187
Jan 31 00:59:38 school gsd-housekeepin[2045]: Failed to enumerate
children of /tmp/systemd-private-3d6dfe8707be46aa9187e85e
Jan 31 00:59:38 school gsd-housekeepin[2045]: Failed to enumerate
children of /tmp/systemd-private-3d6dfe8707be46aa9187e85e
Jan 31 00:59:38 school gsd-housekeepin[2045]: Failed to enumerate
children of /tmp/systemd-private-3d6dfe8707be46aa9187e85e
Jan 31 00:59:38 school gsd-housekeepin[2045]: Failed to enumerate
children of /tmp/systemd-private-3d6dfe8707be46aa9187e85e
Jan 31 01:09:51 school org.gnome.Calculator.desktop[25129]: xkbcommon:
ERROR: Key "" added to modifier map for multip
Jan 31 01:10:45 school gnome-calculato[25129]: gtk_container_remove:
assertion 'GTK_IS_WIDGET (widget)' failed
Jan 31 01:14:08 school evolution-alarm[2297]: Error reading events from
display: Broken pipe
Jan 31 01:14:08 school gnome-software[2301]: Error reading events from
display: Broken pipe
Jan 31 01:14:08 school gnome-session-binary[1715]: WARNING: App
'org.gnome.Shell.desktop' exited with code 1
Jan 31 01:14:08 school gnome-session[1715]: gnome-session-binary[1715]: 
WARNING: App 'org.gnome.Shell.desktop' exited with 
Jan 31 01:14:08 school org.gnome.Shell.desktop[1785]: Window manager
error: Could not find cursor. Perhaps set XCURSOR_PATH
Jan 31 01:14:08 school org.gnome.Shell.desktop[1785]: Fatal server
error:
Jan 31 01:14:08 school org.gnome.Shell.desktop[1785]: (EE) failed to
read Wayland events: Broken pipe
Jan 31 01:14:08 school org.gnome.Shell.desktop[1785]: (EE)
Jan 31 01:14:08 school gnome-session-binary[1715]: Unrecoverable
failure in required component org.gnome.Shell.desktop
Jan 31 01:14:08 school
org.gnome.SettingsDaemon.MediaKeys.desktop[2048]:
xcb_connection_has_error() returned true
Jan 31 01:14:08 school 

Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Howard Howell]

On Tue, 2018-01-30 at 10:15 -0800, Howard Howell wrote:
> On Tue, 2018-01-30 at 10:49 -0500, Przemek Klosowski wrote:
> > On 01/29/2018 09:33 PM, mcatanz...@gnome.org wrote:
> > > Please see my earlier post in this thread regarding how to get a 
> > > stacktrace out of coredumpctl
> > 
> > This is a great debugging harness; thanks for pointing it out as I 
> > didn't know about it.
> > 
> > I am currently reporting my pan-crashing-Wayland crashing issue on 
> > gnome.org---but in the true Heisenbug fashion it stopped crashing,
> > so
> > I 
> > can't reproduce it now. It was crashing almost every time I used
> > the
> > pan 
> > newsreader (the three crash dumps I submitted were just few days
> > apart 
> > in my coredumpctl records), but now they're as solid as rock.
> > 
> > I have to say that the GNOME developers responded almost
> > immediately, 
> > and I feel stupid for not being able to demonstrate replication. I
> > am 
> > really curious about the nature of this bug: it must be some weird 
> > interaction---perhaps related to memory use or something like that.
> > ___
> > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> 
> I had the same experience.  I loaded all the tools that were
> recommended, and the crashes seem to have stopped ( that is no
> crashes
> since I loaded all the tools.) Maybe there is a hidden fix in the
> debug
> stuff.
> 
> Regards,
> Les H
> ___
> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
spoke too soon.  Just got logged out.  Had just finished looking up
some info on bitcoin on the web, then closed the browser, moved the
mouse toward the top annunciation in the top banner of the desktop. 
Screen went dark and dropped me out to the login window.

Checking logs and backtrace to see if I can find anything useful...
Later post if I do.

Regards,
Les H
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Howard Howell]

On Tue, 2018-01-30 at 10:49 -0500, Przemek Klosowski wrote:
> On 01/29/2018 09:33 PM, mcatanz...@gnome.org wrote:
> > Please see my earlier post in this thread regarding how to get a 
> > stacktrace out of coredumpctl
> 
> This is a great debugging harness; thanks for pointing it out as I 
> didn't know about it.
> 
> I am currently reporting my pan-crashing-Wayland crashing issue on 
> gnome.org---but in the true Heisenbug fashion it stopped crashing, so
> I 
> can't reproduce it now. It was crashing almost every time I used the
> pan 
> newsreader (the three crash dumps I submitted were just few days
> apart 
> in my coredumpctl records), but now they're as solid as rock.
> 
> I have to say that the GNOME developers responded almost
> immediately, 
> and I feel stupid for not being able to demonstrate replication. I
> am 
> really curious about the nature of this bug: it must be some weird 
> interaction---perhaps related to memory use or something like that.
> ___
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I had the same experience.  I loaded all the tools that were
recommended, and the crashes seem to have stopped ( that is no crashes
since I loaded all the tools.) Maybe there is a hidden fix in the debug
stuff.

Regards,
Les H
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Adam Williamson]

On Tue, 2018-01-30 at 10:49 -0500, Przemek Klosowski wrote:
> On 01/29/2018 09:33 PM, mcatanz...@gnome.org wrote:
> > Please see my earlier post in this thread regarding how to get a 
> > stacktrace out of coredumpctl
> 
> This is a great debugging harness; thanks for pointing it out as I 
> didn't know about it.
> 
> I am currently reporting my pan-crashing-Wayland crashing issue on 
> gnome.org---but in the true Heisenbug fashion it stopped crashing, so I 
> can't reproduce it now. It was crashing almost every time I used the pan 
> newsreader (the three crash dumps I submitted were just few days apart 
> in my coredumpctl records), but now they're as solid as rock.

IIRC we did fix at least one of the more commonly encountered crashers
recently, so you might've been running into that one. There are still a
few out there, though.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[mcatanzaro]

On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 9:49 AM, Przemek Klosowski 
 wrote:
I am currently reporting my pan-crashing-Wayland crashing issue on 
gnome.org---but in the true Heisenbug fashion it stopped crashing, so 
I can't reproduce it now. It was crashing almost every time I used 
the pan newsreader (the three crash dumps I submitted were just few 
days apart in my coredumpctl records), but now they're as solid as 
rock.


That's the great thing about coredumpctl: as long as the issue occurs 
again sometime in the future, the backtrace will be there waiting for 
you at that time, so it's not a big deal that you can't reproduce 
immediately.


Michael


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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Przemek Klosowski]

On 01/29/2018 09:33 PM, mcatanz...@gnome.org wrote:
Please see my earlier post in this thread regarding how to get a 
stacktrace out of coredumpctl


This is a great debugging harness; thanks for pointing it out as I 
didn't know about it.


I am currently reporting my pan-crashing-Wayland crashing issue on 
gnome.org---but in the true Heisenbug fashion it stopped crashing, so I 
can't reproduce it now. It was crashing almost every time I used the pan 
newsreader (the three crash dumps I submitted were just few days apart 
in my coredumpctl records), but now they're as solid as rock.


I have to say that the GNOME developers responded almost immediately, 
and I feel stupid for not being able to demonstrate replication. I am 
really curious about the nature of this bug: it must be some weird 
interaction---perhaps related to memory use or something like that.

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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[mcatanzaro]

On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 7:39 PM, Per Bothner  wrote:
If any logs or monitoring tools would be helpful, I'll be happy to 
help.


Please see my earlier post in this thread regarding how to get a 
stacktrace out of coredumpctl. If you post an issue report with a 
stacktrace at https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/issues, then 
the developers will have a chance to investigate.


Thanks,

Michael
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Per Bothner]

FWIW, I too have Wayland crashing every few days.
I can't pin-point a pattern: Just now it crashed while
trying to open a pdf attachment in Thunderbird (using
the default Document Viewer).  After rebooting, the same
attachment opened with no problems.

Given that the apps I use are pretty good about recovering
from a crash, it's not a show-stopper for me, but it is annoying.

If any logs or monitoring tools would be helpful, I'll be happy to help.

I'm running an updated Fedora 27 on an HP Spectre.  I have a 4k Sceptre monitor
(cheap and possibly buggy) connected via a Thunderbolt-3-to-HDMI dongle
- or maybe it's a USB-C-to-HDMI dongle :-).
--
--Per Bothner
p...@bothner.com   http://per.bothner.com/
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Samuel Sieb]

On 01/25/2018 12:02 PM, Howard Howell wrote:

[root@school lesh]# dnf debuginfo-install glibc-2.25-12.fc26.x86_64
Package glibc-debuginfo-2.23.1-11.fc24.x86_64 is already installed,
skipping.
Dependencies resolved.
Nothing to do.


Try adding --best to the command.
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Howard Howell]

On Thu, 2018-01-25 at 09:51 -0800, Howard Howell wrote:
> On Wed, 2018-01-24 at 14:29 -0500, Przemek Klosowski wrote:
> > On 01/23/2018 06:56 PM, Howard Howell wrote:
> > > Due to that last line, issued su and password and ran it again:
> > > # lshw
> > > Segmentation fault (core dumped)
> > 
> > ok, great---so now do 'gdb lshw', type 'r' in gdb, and see where it
> > crashes.
> > 
> > You may need to debuginfo-install few packages if gdb says it can't
> > find 
> > debugging symbols, and you may need to install also some -source 
> > packages because the recent changes in packaging and dnf fail to do
> > so. 
> > Then, report whether the crash happens reliably in a single
> > location,
> > or 
> > is random as it would be if your hardware is flaky.
> > ___
> > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> 
> It did not crash.  Here are the last 2 lines it output:
> 
> configuration: autonegotiation=off broadcast=yes driver=tun
> driverversion=1.6 duplex=full link=no multicast=yes port=twisted pair
> speed=10Mbit/s
> WARNING: output may be incomplete or inaccurate, you should run this
> program as super-user.
> [Inferior 1 (process 3063) exited normally]
> 
> The things I would point out are that Terminal is in a window, and
> when
> that crash occured I had just run the command, and it may not have
> terminated fully.  The command lshw seems to be multithreaded.
> 
> Regards,
> Les H
> ___
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Now I'm in a new and apparently unresolvable loop for debug info for
glibc.  The program gdb when running lshw needs glibc-2.25-
12.fc26.x86_64.

But the install won't pick up that version.  Here is the exchange with
me (gdb) run
Starting program: /usr/sbin/lshw 
Missing separate debuginfos, use: dnf debuginfo-install glibc-2.25-
12.fc26.x86_64
USB 
Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
0x772c1b70 in feof () from /lib64/libc.so.6
(gdb) exit
Undefined command: "exit".  Try "help".
(gdb) quit
A debugging session is active.

Inferior 1 [process 5734] will be killed.

Quit anyway? (y or n) y
[root@school lesh]# dnf debuginfo-install glibc-2.25-12.fc26.x86_64
enabling updates-debuginfo repository
enabling fedora-debuginfo repository
enabling rpmfusion-free-updates-debuginfo repository
enabling rpmfusion-free-debuginfo repository
enabling rpmfusion-nonfree-updates-debuginfo repository
enabling rpmfusion-nonfree-debuginfo repository
Last metadata expiration check: 0:46:46 ago on Thu 25 Jan 2018 11:11:19
AM PST.
Package glibc-debuginfo-2.23.1-11.fc24.x86_64 is already installed,
skipping.
Dependencies resolved.
Nothing to do.
Complete!
[root@school lesh]# gdb lshw
GNU gdb (GDB) Fedora 8.0.1-33.fc26
Copyright (C) 2017 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later 
This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it.
There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law.  Type "show
copying"
and "show warranty" for details.
This GDB was configured as "x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu".
Type "show configuration" for configuration details.
For bug reporting instructions, please see:
.
Find the GDB manual and other documentation resources online at:
.
For help, type "help".
Type "apropos word" to search for commands related to "word"...
Reading symbols from lshw...Reading symbols from
/usr/lib/debug/usr/sbin/lshw.debug...done.
done.
(gdb) run
Starting program: /usr/sbin/lshw 
Missing separate debuginfos, use: dnf debuginfo-install glibc-2.25-
12.fc26.x86_64
USB 
Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
0x772c1b70 in feof () from /lib64/libc.so.6
(gdb) 
and gdb running lshw:



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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Howard Howell]

On Wed, 2018-01-24 at 14:29 -0500, Przemek Klosowski wrote:
> On 01/23/2018 06:56 PM, Howard Howell wrote:
> > Due to that last line, issued su and password and ran it again:
> > # lshw
> > Segmentation fault (core dumped)
> 
> ok, great---so now do 'gdb lshw', type 'r' in gdb, and see where it
> crashes.
> 
> You may need to debuginfo-install few packages if gdb says it can't
> find 
> debugging symbols, and you may need to install also some -source 
> packages because the recent changes in packaging and dnf fail to do
> so. 
> Then, report whether the crash happens reliably in a single location,
> or 
> is random as it would be if your hardware is flaky.
> ___
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> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
It did not crash.  Here are the last 2 lines it output:

configuration: autonegotiation=off broadcast=yes driver=tun
driverversion=1.6 duplex=full link=no multicast=yes port=twisted pair
speed=10Mbit/s
WARNING: output may be incomplete or inaccurate, you should run this
program as super-user.
[Inferior 1 (process 3063) exited normally]

The things I would point out are that Terminal is in a window, and when
that crash occured I had just run the command, and it may not have
terminated fully.  The command lshw seems to be multithreaded.

Regards,
Les H
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Re: Problems debugging problems... formerly Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Jonathan Wakely]

On 24/01/18 15:06 -0700, stan wrote:

On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 14:37:30 -0500
Przemek Klosowski  wrote:


For instance, I observed a reliable desktop session crash on exiting
Pan newsreader. I don't know how to debug it because it crashes the
session and I get logged out.


I think this is because the C++ used in Pan is incompatible with
current versions of g++ being used.


That's a funny way to say the package is buggy.


More specifically, when I saw this
issue in F25, I was able to end it by compiling the src.rpm with
optimization set to O0.  This type of thing also occurred in firefox
when the latest C++ was released, as it made some things commonly used
in earlier versions errors.


Yes, firefox code was buggy, it plays lots of nasty undefined tricks.

"It worked OK until now" doesn't mean something isn't a bug if you're
not following the rules of the language.

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Re: Problems debugging problems... formerly Re: Wyland is a disaster

[stan]

On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 14:37:30 -0500
Przemek Klosowski  wrote:

> For instance, I observed a reliable desktop session crash on exiting
> Pan newsreader. I don't know how to debug it because it crashes the
> session and I get logged out.

I think this is because the C++ used in Pan is incompatible with
current versions of g++ being used.  More specifically, when I saw this
issue in F25, I was able to end it by compiling the src.rpm with
optimization set to O0.  This type of thing also occurred in firefox
when the latest C++ was released, as it made some things commonly used
in earlier versions errors.

On the other hand, it could be completely unrelated to your problem.
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Re: Problems debugging problems... formerly Re: Wyland is a disaster

[mcatanzaro]

On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Przemek Klosowski 
 wrote:

Can anyone suggest ways of debugging this?


Run coredumpctl to see what processes crashed. There should be at least 
a gnome-shell crash, maybe also a gnome-session crash, maybe also an 
XWayland crash. Usually only the gnome-shell and gnome-session crashes 
are interesting. Use 'coredumpctl gdb' to get backtraces for each crash 
in gdb. Be sure to install the debuginfo via the dnf command that gdb 
will suggest and then restart gdb each time, to get a high-quality 
backtrace.


Once you have a backtrace, you have all you need for a quality crash 
report. Skip Red Hat Bugzilla and go straight to upstream for best 
results. The gnome-shell crash should be reported at 
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/issues (yes, it's a new 
issue tracker, I'm afraid you just missed being first!). If there's 
also a gnome-session crash, that should be reported at 
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=gnome-session.


Hope that helps,

Michael
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Problems debugging problems... formerly Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Przemek Klosowski]

On 01/21/2018 07:23 AM, Tom Hughes wrote:
Not really. It's a grab bag of different things that may or not be 
related to Wayland.


I think this problem is compounded by the fact that Wayland and several 
other system features such as Gnome session setup are very integrated, 
and it's hard to debug them.


For instance, I observed a reliable desktop session crash on exiting Pan 
newsreader. I don't know how to debug it because it crashes the session 
and I get logged out.


This is a pretty serious issue in my opinion, because if I can crash the 
entire desktop session then it's not unreasonable to expect fuzzing 
issues with serious security implications (e.g. snooping on your desktop 
session from code running in the browser).


I tried to run strace on the pan process and save results to the disk 
file, but it was inconclusive; whatever kills the login session seems to 
happen outside of the pan process.


Can anyone suggest ways of debugging this?
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Przemek Klosowski]

On 01/23/2018 06:56 PM, Howard Howell wrote:

Due to that last line, issued su and password and ran it again:
# lshw
Segmentation fault (core dumped)


ok, great---so now do 'gdb lshw', type 'r' in gdb, and see where it crashes.

You may need to debuginfo-install few packages if gdb says it can't find 
debugging symbols, and you may need to install also some -source 
packages because the recent changes in packaging and dnf fail to do so. 
Then, report whether the crash happens reliably in a single location, or 
is random as it would be if your hardware is flaky.

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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Howard Howell]

On Tue, 2018-01-23 at 19:52 -0500, Jared K. Smith wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 6:56 PM, Howard Howell 
> wrote:
> > Due to that last line, issued su and password and ran it again:
> > 
> > # lshw
> > 
> > Segmentation fault (core dumped)
> > 
> > #
> 
> Due to the fact that you're having segfaults in command-line programs
> as well, I'm tempted to say you've got a bigger (hardware?) problem
> on your hands, and that Wayland crashing is just a symptom of that
> larger issue.
> 
> --
> Jared Smith
> 
That's the first real crash from command line.
Regards,
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Jared K. Smith]

On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 6:56 PM, Howard Howell  wrote:

> Due to that last line, issued su and password and ran it again:
> # lshw
> Segmentation fault (core dumped)
> #
>

Due to the fact that you're having segfaults in command-line programs as
well, I'm tempted to say you've got a bigger (hardware?) problem on your
hands, and that Wayland crashing is just a symptom of that larger issue.

--
Jared Smith
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Howard Howell]

On Tue, 2018-01-23 at 12:35 -0800, Samuel Sieb wrote:
> On 01/23/2018 12:22 PM, Howard Howell wrote:
> > I thought there was a tool to list installed boards, but can't
> > find it.  Any thoughts there, other than opening up the system and
> > getting the label information?
> 
> lshw and/or lshw-gui
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Tried invoking the command.  Got the prompt to install it, entered the
su password, and got this response.

description: Computer
width: 64 bits
capabilities: smp vsyscall32
  *-core
   description: Motherboard
   physical id: 0
 *-memory
  description: System memory
  physical id: 0
  size: 15GiB
 *-cpu
  product: AMD FX(tm)-8300 Eight-Core Processor
  vendor: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD]
  physical id: 1
  bus info: cpu@0
  size: 1450MHz
  capacity: 3300MHz
  width: 64 bits
  capabilities: fpu fpu_exception wp vme de pse tsc msr pae mce
cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush mmx fxsr sse sse2 ht
syscall nx mmxext fxsr_opt pdpe1gb rdtscp x86-64 constant_tsc rep_good
nopl nonstop_tsc cpuid extd_apicid aperfmperf pni pclmulqdq monitor
ssse3 fma cx16 sse4_1 sse4_2 popcnt aes xsave avx f16c lahf_lm
cmp_legacy svm extapic cr8_legacy abm sse4a misalignsse 3dnowprefetch
osvw ibs xop skinit wdt lwp fma4 tce nodeid_msr tbm topoext
perfctr_core perfctr_nb cpb hw_pstate retpoline retpoline_amd vmmcall
bmi1 arat npt lbrv svm_lock nrip_save tsc_scale vmcb_clean flushbyasid
decodeassists pausefilter pfthreshold cpufreq
 *-pci:0
  description: Host bridge
  product: RD9x0/RX980 Host Bridge
  vendor: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]
  physical id: 100
  bus info: pci@:00:00.0
  version: 02
  width: 32 bits
  clock: 33MHz
*-pci:0
 description: PCI bridge
 product: RD890/RD9x0/RX980 PCI to PCI bridge (PCI Express
GFX port 0)
 vendor: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]
 physical id: 2
 bus info: pci@:00:02.0
 version: 00
 width: 32 bits
 clock: 33MHz
 capabilities: pci normal_decode bus_master cap_list
 configuration: driver=pcieport
 resources: irq:24 ioport:e000(size=4096) memory:fea0-
feaf ioport:c000(size=268435456)
   *-display
description: VGA compatible controller
product: Oland [Radeon HD 8570 / R7 240/340 OEM]
vendor: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]
physical id: 0
bus info: pci@:01:00.0
version: 00
width: 64 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: vga_controller bus_master cap_list rom
configuration: driver=radeon latency=0
resources: irq:47 memory:c000-cfff
memory:fea0-fea3 ioport:e000(size=256) memory:c-d
   *-multimedia
description: Audio device
product: Cape Verde/Pitcairn HDMI Audio [Radeon HD
7700/7800 Series]
vendor: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]
physical id: 0.1
bus info: pci@:01:00.1
version: 00
width: 64 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: bus_master cap_list
configuration: driver=snd_hda_intel latency=0
resources: irq:49 memory:fea6-fea63fff
*-pci:1
 description: PCI bridge
 product: RD890/RD9x0/RX980 PCI to PCI bridge (PCI Express
GPP Port 0)
 vendor: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]
 physical id: 4
 bus info: pci@:00:04.0
 version: 00
 width: 32 bits
 clock: 33MHz
 capabilities: pci normal_decode bus_master cap_list
 configuration: driver=pcieport
 resources: irq:24 ioport:d000(size=4096) memory:fe90-
fe9f ioport:d000(size=1048576)
   *-network
description: Ethernet interface
product: RTL8111/8168/8411 PCI Express Gigabit Ethernet
Controller
vendor: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd.
physical id: 0
bus info: pci@:02:00.0
logical name: enp2s0
version: 0c
serial: d8:50:e6:5b:cd:af
size: 100Mbit/s
capacity: 1Gbit/s
width: 64 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: bus_master cap_list ethernet physical tp
mii 10bt 10bt-fd 100bt 100bt-fd 1000bt 1000bt-fd autonegotiation
configuration: 

Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Samuel Sieb]

On 01/23/2018 12:22 PM, Howard Howell wrote:

I thought there was a tool to list installed boards, but can't
find it.  Any thoughts there, other than opening up the system and
getting the label information?


lshw and/or lshw-gui
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Howard Howell]

On Mon, 2018-01-22 at 19:53 +, Tom Hughes wrote:
> On 22/01/18 15:58, Adam Williamson wrote:
> 
> > I have a dual monitor setup with both monitors rotated, using an
> > NVIDIA
> > adapter (9600 GT). Works fine, uses Wayland. Again, you need to be
> > *very specific* about graphics issues. They are very often very
> > specific to the exact hardware in use - down to the model of the
> > graphics card and which specific outputs are used.
> 
> 1 x NVIDIA Corporation G84 [GeForce 8600 GT]
> 
> with DVI-I-1 connected to 2560x1600 panel
> and DVI-I-2 connected to 1600x1200 panel rotated right
> 
> 1 x NVIDIA Corporation GT218 [GeForce 210]
> 
> with DVI-I-1-3 connected to 1600x1200 panel rotated right
> 
> I can't see any obvious indication in the logs of why it fell back
> but 
> if it's not rotation maybe it's having multiple cards?
> 
> Tom
> 
> -- 
> Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
> http://compton.nu/
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My setup is as follows:
AMD Fx(tm)-8300 eight-core processor x8
64-bit
AMD Oland graphics
Gnome 3.24.2
976GB disk
Dual monitors
ViewSonic 23" Primary
Samsung Electric Company 23"
Fedora 26
Wayland (normal login, but Xorg login has similar issues)
Programs experiencing issues:
PixyMon after rebuild crashes
Gscheme simply goes away
System updated at each prompt, including today.
Running Gschem by invoking it from a terminal provides no
unusual information. Tried on both monitors.
LibreOffice Calc has died once or twice, not sure, can't repeat
that.
Occasionally rapid mouse movement to the Activities bar causes
logout.  Can't get repeatable to determine if any application causes
it.
Frequently my use has up to 20 tabs open in firefox, evolution
up (like now), and one or two other applications open simultaneously,
like now I have settings showing the display info.

Checking jounalctl and dmesg has not revealed anything
pertinent.  Can you gentlefolk suggest anyplace else to look?  Or is
there any more information you need?

I thought there was a tool to list installed boards, but can't
find it.  Any thoughts there, other than opening up the system and
getting the label information?

Regards,
Les H
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2018-01-22 at 19:53 +, Tom Hughes wrote:
> On 22/01/18 15:58, Adam Williamson wrote:
> 
> > I have a dual monitor setup with both monitors rotated, using an NVIDIA
> > adapter (9600 GT). Works fine, uses Wayland. Again, you need to be
> > *very specific* about graphics issues. They are very often very
> > specific to the exact hardware in use - down to the model of the
> > graphics card and which specific outputs are used.
> 
> 1 x NVIDIA Corporation G84 [GeForce 8600 GT]
> 
> with DVI-I-1 connected to 2560x1600 panel
> and DVI-I-2 connected to 1600x1200 panel rotated right
> 
> 1 x NVIDIA Corporation GT218 [GeForce 210]
> 
> with DVI-I-1-3 connected to 1600x1200 panel rotated right
> 
> I can't see any obvious indication in the logs of why it fell back but 
> if it's not rotation maybe it's having multiple cards?

Yeah, I'd bet that's it.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Howard Howell]

On Mon, 2018-01-22 at 18:57 -0500, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
> On 21 January 2018 at 14:42, Stephen John Smoogen 
> wrote:
> > On 21 January 2018 at 14:06, Howard Howell 
> > wrote:
> > > On Sun, 2018-01-21 at 15:25 +0100, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
> > > > Folks, please move this discussion to users@lists.fedoraproject
> > > > .org.
> > > > ___
> > > > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > > > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject
> > > > .org
> > > 
> > > HI, Igor,
> > > I posted here on purpose.  Users cannot change the
> > > direction of
> > > Linux, only you guys, the developers, have that capability.  I
> > > like the
> > > direction the discussion has taken. I want the group to think
> > > responsibily about the users.  Not just the technology, because
> > > technology that is not useful on a widely distributed operating
> > > system
> > > is not beneficial to anyone.
> > > 
> > 
> > Posting a diatribe to the devel list usually has the opposite
> > effect
> > than getting people to think about things.
> > 
> 
> I am apologizing to the readers of the list and to Les. My comments
> were not helpful and were rather hurtful in several parts. I was
> wrong
> to have compared the post to a drunk with a broken bottle.
> 
> 
> 
No worries, Stephen, 
I have sometimes experienced hoof in mouth disease myself. 
Maybe this is kind of one of those times, for me, too.  I just really
really like Fedora.  I have been with the system for a long time, at
least since 5 or something like that.  I cannot contribute much, but I
do what I can.

Regards,
Les H
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Stephen John Smoogen]

On 21 January 2018 at 14:42, Stephen John Smoogen  wrote:
> On 21 January 2018 at 14:06, Howard Howell  wrote:
>> On Sun, 2018-01-21 at 15:25 +0100, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
>>> Folks, please move this discussion to us...@lists.fedoraproject.org.
>>> ___
>>> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
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>> HI, Igor,
>> I posted here on purpose.  Users cannot change the direction of
>> Linux, only you guys, the developers, have that capability.  I like the
>> direction the discussion has taken. I want the group to think
>> responsibily about the users.  Not just the technology, because
>> technology that is not useful on a widely distributed operating system
>> is not beneficial to anyone.
>>
>
> Posting a diatribe to the devel list usually has the opposite effect
> than getting people to think about things.
>

I am apologizing to the readers of the list and to Les. My comments
were not helpful and were rather hurtful in several parts. I was wrong
to have compared the post to a drunk with a broken bottle.



-- 
Stephen J Smoogen.
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Tom Hughes]

On 22/01/18 15:58, Adam Williamson wrote:


I have a dual monitor setup with both monitors rotated, using an NVIDIA
adapter (9600 GT). Works fine, uses Wayland. Again, you need to be
*very specific* about graphics issues. They are very often very
specific to the exact hardware in use - down to the model of the
graphics card and which specific outputs are used.


1 x NVIDIA Corporation G84 [GeForce 8600 GT]

with DVI-I-1 connected to 2560x1600 panel
and DVI-I-2 connected to 1600x1200 panel rotated right

1 x NVIDIA Corporation GT218 [GeForce 210]

with DVI-I-1-3 connected to 1600x1200 panel rotated right

I can't see any obvious indication in the logs of why it fell back but 
if it's not rotation maybe it's having multiple cards?


Tom

--
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://compton.nu/
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Olivier Fourdan]

Hi

On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 4:54 PM, Adam Williamson  wrote:

> On Mon, 2018-01-22 at 07:16 -0500, Christian Fredrik Schaller wrote:
> > Sorry for responding to myself here, but I thought it could also be
> > worthwhile to mention that one of our primary tools for identifying
> > problems is the Fedora ABRT server. Looking at the current stats it looks
> > to me like F27 is actually doing better than F26 used to in
> > terms of minimizing crashers: https://goo.gl/babuJx
> >
> > There is always a chance ABRT is not catching the issues of course for
> some
> > reason,
>
> Well, see my mails from last month or so to desktop@ . There's several
> problems with how abrt interacts with GNOME and Wayland; I'm not sure
> to what extent these distort the figures.
>
> First problem: abrt considers *lots* of actually-unrelated crashes to
> be duplicates, because their tracebacks look similar - this happens
> because glib has a special 'logging' function which actually means
> (more or less) 'die intentionally, with this log message'. abrt tends
> to interpret many bugs that crash along that path as dupes of each
> other, even if the actual cause of the crash - whatever triggers that
> special log message call - is different in each case. I've filed a
> couple of variants of this at:
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1509086
>
> Second problem: I *think* there's a similar issue with the recently-
> introduced `dump_gjs_stack_on_signal_handler` path; I've found at least
> some cases of apparently-unrelated bugs being marked as dupes due to
> that path. Details:
> https://github.com/abrt/satyr/issues/272
>
> Third problem: abrt doesn't do a very good job of reporting any crash
> that's caused by Xwayland dying. All you get is a backtrace that
> basically tells you "Xwayland crashed", but no useful information about
> why. Sometimes the system log extract that abrt captures happens to
> shed some light on the reason, but sometimes it doesn't. Details:
> https://github.com/abrt/satyr/issues/271
>
> I did some cleanup on false dupes and things caused by these problems,
> but it's necessarily incomplete, and I know more dupes have been filed
> since I did the cleanup...
>

Regarding the characterization of issues with Wayland, there is a bit of
history behind all this, and are a couple things to consider as well.

With GNOME on Wayland, gnome-shell/mutter is the display server and
gnome-shell/mutter still depends on Xwayland to run [1] and cannot survive
a crash in Xwayland.

Xwayland is an X server for the X11 clients but a Wayland client as well,
so if gnome-shell/mutter crashes, Xwayland will lose its connection to the
Wayland compositor and therefore dies as well.

So both components (gnome-shell/mutter and Xwayland) are tightly coupled
and cannot survive one each other (in GNOME).

That alone makes automatically (or even manually) root causing an issue
afterwards a bit of a challenge sometimes, one has first to determine which
of the two components has died first and taken the other with it.

To make things slightly more challenging, Xwayland would not generate a
core file on a crash, just a self-generated backtrace that could be found
in journalctl, so in some case, it would be almost impossible to tell why
the Wayland session crashed as no core file for Xwayland would be available
(and the self-generated backtrace is rarely of much help, sadly).

So gnome-shell/mutter added “-core” to the Wayland command line (Xwayland
being started automatically by gnome-shell/mutter) so that we could capture
a core file every time Xwayland would crash [2].

Unfortunately, using “-core” instructs Xwayland to generate a core file
each time a fatal error occurs, and losing the connection to the Wayland
compositor is a fatal error for Xwayland, so now each time
gnome-shell/mutter crashes, we also get a core file for Xwayland and get
reports about a bug in Xwayland whereas the issue come from
gnome-shell/mutter. That alone generates a lot of false positive for
Xwayland, and a lot of duplicates (the backtrace usually contains
“xwl_read_events()”)

The way to solve that problem is to change Xwayland to not call
FatalError() when the Wayland compositor dies so that no core is generated
in this case, a patch for this has already landed in the xserver master
branch upstream [3].

With this, we should get a core file for “real” crashes but not when
Xwayland is aborting because the Wayland compositor (gnome-shell/mutter)
has crashed, hopefully that will help with a better characterization of
Wayland issues in the future.

HTH,

Cheers,
Olivier

[1] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=759538
[2] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=789086
[3] https://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/commit/?id=
fe46cbea0f19959d469ca4d1f09be379dc7b1e45
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2018-01-22 at 15:39 +, Tom Hughes wrote:
> On 22/01/18 15:34, Tom Hughes wrote:
> > On 22/01/18 15:26, Jerry James wrote:
> > 
> > > One configuration that appears to be particularly unstable is a
> > > dual-monitor setup with nouveau.  I experience frequent system hangs
> > > with that setup, and don't seem to be alone; e.g.,
> > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1491565.  (Note that I do
> > > not have a HiDPI monitor, but I also don't see all of the issues the
> > > reporter of that bug noted.)  I'm going to try using X sessions this
> > > week to see if that helps at all.  If not, they are probably nouveau
> > > bugs unrelated to Wayland.
> > 
> > Does wayland actually support that?
> > 
> > I have a triple monitor setup with nouveau on one machine and that has 
> > always fallen back to X so I just assumed wayland didn't support that yet.
> 
> Actually thinking about it I think it's the fact that two of the 
> monitors have a rotation applied that blocks wayland.

I have a dual monitor setup with both monitors rotated, using an NVIDIA
adapter (9600 GT). Works fine, uses Wayland. Again, you need to be
*very specific* about graphics issues. They are very often very
specific to the exact hardware in use - down to the model of the
graphics card and which specific outputs are used.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2018-01-22 at 08:26 -0700, Jerry James wrote:
> 
> One configuration that appears to be particularly unstable is a
> dual-monitor setup with nouveau.  I experience frequent system hangs
> with that setup, and don't seem to be alone; e.g.,
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1491565.

On the other hand, I'm running Rawhide on a dual-monitor setup with
"nouveau" and not hitting that at all. (Though it recently stopped
being able to resume from suspend successfully).

Point being, 'nouveau' is insufficiently specific. The main graphics
drivers these days support a huge range of hardware, and have very
different codepaths depending on what your particular adapter is. So,
you need to ensure that a report of this precisely identifies your
hardware, and ideally includes at least a log from booting with
'drm.debug=14'.

And yeah, it doesn't sound like this is necessarily related to Wayland
at all.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2018-01-22 at 07:16 -0500, Christian Fredrik Schaller wrote:
> Sorry for responding to myself here, but I thought it could also be
> worthwhile to mention that one of our primary tools for identifying
> problems is the Fedora ABRT server. Looking at the current stats it looks
> to me like F27 is actually doing better than F26 used to in
> terms of minimizing crashers: https://goo.gl/babuJx
> 
> There is always a chance ABRT is not catching the issues of course for some
> reason,

Well, see my mails from last month or so to desktop@ . There's several
problems with how abrt interacts with GNOME and Wayland; I'm not sure
to what extent these distort the figures.

First problem: abrt considers *lots* of actually-unrelated crashes to
be duplicates, because their tracebacks look similar - this happens
because glib has a special 'logging' function which actually means
(more or less) 'die intentionally, with this log message'. abrt tends
to interpret many bugs that crash along that path as dupes of each
other, even if the actual cause of the crash - whatever triggers that
special log message call - is different in each case. I've filed a
couple of variants of this at:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1509086

Second problem: I *think* there's a similar issue with the recently-
introduced `dump_gjs_stack_on_signal_handler` path; I've found at least
some cases of apparently-unrelated bugs being marked as dupes due to
that path. Details:
https://github.com/abrt/satyr/issues/272

Third problem: abrt doesn't do a very good job of reporting any crash
that's caused by Xwayland dying. All you get is a backtrace that
basically tells you "Xwayland crashed", but no useful information about
why. Sometimes the system log extract that abrt captures happens to
shed some light on the reason, but sometimes it doesn't. Details:
https://github.com/abrt/satyr/issues/271

I did some cleanup on false dupes and things caused by these problems,
but it's necessarily incomplete, and I know more dupes have been filed
since I did the cleanup...
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Tom Hughes]

On 22/01/18 15:34, Tom Hughes wrote:

On 22/01/18 15:26, Jerry James wrote:


One configuration that appears to be particularly unstable is a
dual-monitor setup with nouveau.  I experience frequent system hangs
with that setup, and don't seem to be alone; e.g.,
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1491565.  (Note that I do
not have a HiDPI monitor, but I also don't see all of the issues the
reporter of that bug noted.)  I'm going to try using X sessions this
week to see if that helps at all.  If not, they are probably nouveau
bugs unrelated to Wayland.


Does wayland actually support that?

I have a triple monitor setup with nouveau on one machine and that has 
always fallen back to X so I just assumed wayland didn't support that yet.


Actually thinking about it I think it's the fact that two of the 
monitors have a rotation applied that blocks wayland.


Tom

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http://compton.nu/
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Tom Hughes]

On 22/01/18 15:26, Jerry James wrote:

On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 4:29 AM, Christian Fredrik Schaller
 wrote:

I am sad to hear that people are having issues when using Wayland (and even
the X.org session). Be aware though that we have devs dedicated at RH to
look at Fedora Wayland bugs, so if you file bugs we will try our best to
look at them and figure out what is happening. It obviously works well for
many of us, including the devs themselves, so there must be some specific
hardware and or software combinations triggering these problems. So please
file bugs against Wayland in the Fedora bugzilla and we will try our best to
take a look.


Thanks, Christian.  It's good to know that people are working on these issues.

One configuration that appears to be particularly unstable is a
dual-monitor setup with nouveau.  I experience frequent system hangs
with that setup, and don't seem to be alone; e.g.,
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1491565.  (Note that I do
not have a HiDPI monitor, but I also don't see all of the issues the
reporter of that bug noted.)  I'm going to try using X sessions this
week to see if that helps at all.  If not, they are probably nouveau
bugs unrelated to Wayland.


Does wayland actually support that?

I have a triple monitor setup with nouveau on one machine and that has 
always fallen back to X so I just assumed wayland didn't support that yet.


My machines which are using wayland, which admittedly aren't using 
nvidia graphics at all, seem perfectly fine with it.


Tom

--
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http://compton.nu/
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Jerry James]

On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 4:29 AM, Christian Fredrik Schaller
 wrote:
> I am sad to hear that people are having issues when using Wayland (and even
> the X.org session). Be aware though that we have devs dedicated at RH to
> look at Fedora Wayland bugs, so if you file bugs we will try our best to
> look at them and figure out what is happening. It obviously works well for
> many of us, including the devs themselves, so there must be some specific
> hardware and or software combinations triggering these problems. So please
> file bugs against Wayland in the Fedora bugzilla and we will try our best to
> take a look.

Thanks, Christian.  It's good to know that people are working on these issues.

One configuration that appears to be particularly unstable is a
dual-monitor setup with nouveau.  I experience frequent system hangs
with that setup, and don't seem to be alone; e.g.,
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1491565.  (Note that I do
not have a HiDPI monitor, but I also don't see all of the issues the
reporter of that bug noted.)  I'm going to try using X sessions this
week to see if that helps at all.  If not, they are probably nouveau
bugs unrelated to Wayland.

Regards,
-- 
Jerry James
http://www.jamezone.org/
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Christian Fredrik Schaller]

Sorry for responding to myself here, but I thought it could also be
worthwhile to mention that one of our primary tools for identifying
problems is the Fedora ABRT server. Looking at the current stats it looks
to me like F27 is actually doing better than F26 used to in
terms of minimizing crashers: https://goo.gl/babuJx

There is always a chance ABRT is not catching the issues of course for some
reason, but since the initial email did claim developers
don't care about making sure things works well I thought it would be
worthwhile pointing out some of the tools we use to try to
ensure that things work well.

Christian

On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 6:29 AM, Christian Fredrik Schaller <
cscha...@redhat.com> wrote:

> Hi there,
> I am sad to hear that people are having issues when using Wayland (and
> even the X.org session). Be aware though that we have devs dedicated at RH
> to look at Fedora Wayland bugs, so if you file bugs we will try our best to
> look at them and figure out what is happening. It obviously works well for
> many of us, including the devs themselves, so there must be some specific
> hardware and or software combinations triggering these problems. So please
> file bugs against Wayland in the Fedora bugzilla and we will try our best
> to take a look.
>
> Sincerely,
> Christian Schaller
>
> On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 5:43 AM, Charalampos Stratakis <
> cstra...@redhat.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> > From: "Stephen John Smoogen" <smo...@gmail.com>
>> > To: hlhow...@pacbell.net, "Development discussions related to Fedora" <
>> devel@lists.fedoraproject.org>
>> > Cc: "Francesco Frassinelli" <frap...@gmail.com>
>> > Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2018 8:42:46 PM
>> > Subject: Re: Wyland is a disaster
>> >
>> > On 21 January 2018 at 14:06, Howard Howell <hlhow...@pacbell.net>
>> wrote:
>> > > On Sun, 2018-01-21 at 15:25 +0100, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
>> > >> Folks, please move this discussion to us...@lists.fedoraproject.org.
>> > >> ___
>> > >> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
>> > >> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
>> > > HI, Igor,
>> > > I posted here on purpose.  Users cannot change the direction
>> of
>> > > Linux, only you guys, the developers, have that capability.  I like
>> the
>> > > direction the discussion has taken. I want the group to think
>> > > responsibily about the users.  Not just the technology, because
>> > > technology that is not useful on a widely distributed operating system
>> > > is not beneficial to anyone.
>> > >
>> >
>> > Posting a diatribe to the devel list usually has the opposite effect
>> > than getting people to think about things.
>> >
>> > First off this list does not develop Wayland. It does not develop
>> > GNOME or KDE. It may incorporate those into the finished OS but it is
>> > too late in the process to change the direction.
>> >
>> > Second, most of the people on this list have no say in what is going
>> > on there and have no way to 'change direction'. The people who agree
>> > with you on this aren't doing anything to change direction.. saying "I
>> > agree" doesn't mean that anyone is fixing anything or finding why
>> > something is crashing, etc. It doesn't mean that any developer who
>> > actually works on the stuff is going to see your emails.
>> >
>> > Third, if you actually wanted to change people's opinions you would
>> > not have come into this list like a drunk with a broken bottle.
>> > Calling a project a disaster, mis-spelling it constantly like it was a
>> > slur, and not actually putting any details like bug reports screams "I
>> > am just here to abuse you for your work." It says to the people who
>> > might actually have the power to fix to ignore it  and send the thread
>> > to spam. Yes you have people saying "I agree" but they aren't actually
>> > moving the conversation forward... they are just echoing empty
>> > affirmation. It doesn't mean anyone is going to do anything.. and
>> > thinking that it does is foolish.
>> >
>> > > As to my misspelling of Wayland, that is ignorance on my part.
>> > > I regret that, but as they say, it's on the internet, and immortal.
>> > >
>> >
>> > Thank you for the apol

Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Christian Fredrik Schaller]

Hi there,
I am sad to hear that people are having issues when using Wayland (and even
the X.org session). Be aware though that we have devs dedicated at RH to
look at Fedora Wayland bugs, so if you file bugs we will try our best to
look at them and figure out what is happening. It obviously works well for
many of us, including the devs themselves, so there must be some specific
hardware and or software combinations triggering these problems. So please
file bugs against Wayland in the Fedora bugzilla and we will try our best
to take a look.

Sincerely,
Christian Schaller

On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 5:43 AM, Charalampos Stratakis <cstra...@redhat.com>
wrote:

>
>
> - Original Message -
> > From: "Stephen John Smoogen" <smo...@gmail.com>
> > To: hlhow...@pacbell.net, "Development discussions related to Fedora" <
> devel@lists.fedoraproject.org>
> > Cc: "Francesco Frassinelli" <frap...@gmail.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2018 8:42:46 PM
> > Subject: Re: Wyland is a disaster
> >
> > On 21 January 2018 at 14:06, Howard Howell <hlhow...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > On Sun, 2018-01-21 at 15:25 +0100, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
> > >> Folks, please move this discussion to us...@lists.fedoraproject.org.
> > >> ___
> > >> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > >> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > > HI, Igor,
> > > I posted here on purpose.  Users cannot change the direction of
> > > Linux, only you guys, the developers, have that capability.  I like the
> > > direction the discussion has taken. I want the group to think
> > > responsibily about the users.  Not just the technology, because
> > > technology that is not useful on a widely distributed operating system
> > > is not beneficial to anyone.
> > >
> >
> > Posting a diatribe to the devel list usually has the opposite effect
> > than getting people to think about things.
> >
> > First off this list does not develop Wayland. It does not develop
> > GNOME or KDE. It may incorporate those into the finished OS but it is
> > too late in the process to change the direction.
> >
> > Second, most of the people on this list have no say in what is going
> > on there and have no way to 'change direction'. The people who agree
> > with you on this aren't doing anything to change direction.. saying "I
> > agree" doesn't mean that anyone is fixing anything or finding why
> > something is crashing, etc. It doesn't mean that any developer who
> > actually works on the stuff is going to see your emails.
> >
> > Third, if you actually wanted to change people's opinions you would
> > not have come into this list like a drunk with a broken bottle.
> > Calling a project a disaster, mis-spelling it constantly like it was a
> > slur, and not actually putting any details like bug reports screams "I
> > am just here to abuse you for your work." It says to the people who
> > might actually have the power to fix to ignore it  and send the thread
> > to spam. Yes you have people saying "I agree" but they aren't actually
> > moving the conversation forward... they are just echoing empty
> > affirmation. It doesn't mean anyone is going to do anything.. and
> > thinking that it does is foolish.
> >
> > > As to my misspelling of Wayland, that is ignorance on my part.
> > > I regret that, but as they say, it's on the internet, and immortal.
> > >
> >
> > Thank you for the apology. I would say to start this over again do the
> > following:
> >
> > 1. Research your actual problems. Get bug reports. If you are having
> > problems figuring them out ask on the appropriate list "Hey I am
> > having a problem using Wayland on my  > description>. It is crashing when I do . I don't
> > know how to debug this better."
> > 2. Don't post an email with a drama queen title calling something a
> > disaster or "end of the world". Be clear and concise.
> >
> >
> > > Regards,
> > > Les H
> > > ___
> > > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Stephen J Smoogen.
> > ___
> > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-

Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Charalampos Stratakis]

- Original Message -
> From: "Stephen John Smoogen" <smo...@gmail.com>
> To: hlhow...@pacbell.net, "Development discussions related to Fedora" 
> <devel@lists.fedoraproject.org>
> Cc: "Francesco Frassinelli" <frap...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2018 8:42:46 PM
> Subject: Re: Wyland is a disaster
> 
> On 21 January 2018 at 14:06, Howard Howell <hlhow...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > On Sun, 2018-01-21 at 15:25 +0100, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
> >> Folks, please move this discussion to us...@lists.fedoraproject.org.
> >> ___
> >> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > HI, Igor,
> > I posted here on purpose.  Users cannot change the direction of
> > Linux, only you guys, the developers, have that capability.  I like the
> > direction the discussion has taken. I want the group to think
> > responsibily about the users.  Not just the technology, because
> > technology that is not useful on a widely distributed operating system
> > is not beneficial to anyone.
> >
> 
> Posting a diatribe to the devel list usually has the opposite effect
> than getting people to think about things.
> 
> First off this list does not develop Wayland. It does not develop
> GNOME or KDE. It may incorporate those into the finished OS but it is
> too late in the process to change the direction.
> 
> Second, most of the people on this list have no say in what is going
> on there and have no way to 'change direction'. The people who agree
> with you on this aren't doing anything to change direction.. saying "I
> agree" doesn't mean that anyone is fixing anything or finding why
> something is crashing, etc. It doesn't mean that any developer who
> actually works on the stuff is going to see your emails.
> 
> Third, if you actually wanted to change people's opinions you would
> not have come into this list like a drunk with a broken bottle.
> Calling a project a disaster, mis-spelling it constantly like it was a
> slur, and not actually putting any details like bug reports screams "I
> am just here to abuse you for your work." It says to the people who
> might actually have the power to fix to ignore it  and send the thread
> to spam. Yes you have people saying "I agree" but they aren't actually
> moving the conversation forward... they are just echoing empty
> affirmation. It doesn't mean anyone is going to do anything.. and
> thinking that it does is foolish.
> 
> > As to my misspelling of Wayland, that is ignorance on my part.
> > I regret that, but as they say, it's on the internet, and immortal.
> >
> 
> Thank you for the apology. I would say to start this over again do the
> following:
> 
> 1. Research your actual problems. Get bug reports. If you are having
> problems figuring them out ask on the appropriate list "Hey I am
> having a problem using Wayland on my  description>. It is crashing when I do . I don't
> know how to debug this better."
> 2. Don't post an email with a drama queen title calling something a
> disaster or "end of the world". Be clear and concise.
> 
> 
> > Regards,
> > Les H
> > ___
> > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Stephen J Smoogen.
> ___
> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> 

While you are correct with your observations I'd like to point out that OP 
might just be frustrated with the unusability of wayland and that's his way of 
communicating it.

And i'm saying that because wayland has been for me also an absolutely 
frustrating experience (on F27 that is). F26 was fine on wayland and xorg, 
however currently on F27 with the same setup (T450s with docking station and 
two monitors) wayland is unusable due to crashes and xorg just makes 
gnome-shell crash less. And at the same time I have tried to debug the issues, 
filed reports, compiled rpm's with various fixes, but it just seems that 
gnome-shell keeps crashing for a different reason each time.

Again that was not the case with F26, so I keep wondering what went wrong with 
the latest gnome (or wayland), on F27.

-- 
Regards,

Charalampos Stratakis
Software Engineer
Python Maintenance Team, Red Hat
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Stephen John Smoogen]

On 21 January 2018 at 14:06, Howard Howell  wrote:
> On Sun, 2018-01-21 at 15:25 +0100, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
>> Folks, please move this discussion to us...@lists.fedoraproject.org.
>> ___
>> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> HI, Igor,
> I posted here on purpose.  Users cannot change the direction of
> Linux, only you guys, the developers, have that capability.  I like the
> direction the discussion has taken. I want the group to think
> responsibily about the users.  Not just the technology, because
> technology that is not useful on a widely distributed operating system
> is not beneficial to anyone.
>

Posting a diatribe to the devel list usually has the opposite effect
than getting people to think about things.

First off this list does not develop Wayland. It does not develop
GNOME or KDE. It may incorporate those into the finished OS but it is
too late in the process to change the direction.

Second, most of the people on this list have no say in what is going
on there and have no way to 'change direction'. The people who agree
with you on this aren't doing anything to change direction.. saying "I
agree" doesn't mean that anyone is fixing anything or finding why
something is crashing, etc. It doesn't mean that any developer who
actually works on the stuff is going to see your emails.

Third, if you actually wanted to change people's opinions you would
not have come into this list like a drunk with a broken bottle.
Calling a project a disaster, mis-spelling it constantly like it was a
slur, and not actually putting any details like bug reports screams "I
am just here to abuse you for your work." It says to the people who
might actually have the power to fix to ignore it  and send the thread
to spam. Yes you have people saying "I agree" but they aren't actually
moving the conversation forward... they are just echoing empty
affirmation. It doesn't mean anyone is going to do anything.. and
thinking that it does is foolish.

> As to my misspelling of Wayland, that is ignorance on my part.
> I regret that, but as they say, it's on the internet, and immortal.
>

Thank you for the apology. I would say to start this over again do the
following:

1. Research your actual problems. Get bug reports. If you are having
problems figuring them out ask on the appropriate list "Hey I am
having a problem using Wayland on my . It is crashing when I do . I don't
know how to debug this better."
2. Don't post an email with a drama queen title calling something a
disaster or "end of the world". Be clear and concise.


> Regards,
> Les H
> ___
> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org



-- 
Stephen J Smoogen.
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Chris Murphy]

On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 5:06 AM, Graham Leggett  wrote:
> On 20 Jan 2018, at 8:24 PM, Alec Leamas  wrote:
>
>>>  I'm sorry, but wyland is a disaster for me.  I do work on lots
>>> of different software platforms, and things are just not working well.
>>> They kind-of-work, which is the really worst condition one can have.
>>
>> For me, this looks more like a support issue and as such doesn't not
>> belong to this development list. I suggest that you:
>
> I disagree, this looks like an overarching observation of interest to the 
> development community. Anyone else seen this as a pattern?


Not really. There are no cited bug reports. The description lacks any
specificity pointing toward a graphics driver problem vs a particular
Wayland compositor problem vs a bug related to legacy applications
interfacing with XWayland?

Now if you want to go down the rabbit hole of how tedious it is for
users to file bugs...


-- 
Chris Murphy
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Howard Howell]

On Sun, 2018-01-21 at 15:25 +0100, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
> Folks, please move this discussion to us...@lists.fedoraproject.org.
> ___
> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
HI, Igor,
I posted here on purpose.  Users cannot change the direction of
Linux, only you guys, the developers, have that capability.  I like the
direction the discussion has taken. I want the group to think
responsibily about the users.  Not just the technology, because
technology that is not useful on a widely distributed operating system
is not beneficial to anyone.

As to my misspelling of Wayland, that is ignorance on my part. 
I regret that, but as they say, it's on the internet, and immortal.

Regards,
Les H
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Igor Gnatenko]

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Folks, please move this discussion to us...@lists.fedoraproject.org.
- -- 
- -Igor Gnatenko
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Francesco Frassinelli]

On 21/01/18 13:06, Graham Leggett wrote:
> On 20 Jan 2018, at 8:24 PM, Alec Leamas  wrote:
>
>>> I'm sorry, but wyland is a disaster for me.  I do work on lots
>>> of different software platforms, and things are just not working well. 
>>> They kind-of-work, which is the really worst condition one can have. 
>> For me, this looks more like a support issue and as such doesn't not
>> belong to this development list. I suggest that you:
> I disagree, this looks like an overarching observation of interest to the 
> development community. Anyone else seen this as a pattern?
I started to see it when I realized that most of the crashes that where
reported to me by users (forums, chats, face-to-face) were related
(directly or indirectly) to Wayland: every time that I heard someone
with an application that won't start or crashes every time after a few
clicks, I suggest to report the bug (and a strange Gnome Abrt pops-up
with two or three buttons labeled "Report" "Report" "Report") and switch
temporary to Xorg, which fixes the problem most of the time.

When users see that a Xorg session works as expected and they gain
nothing valuable to them from using Wayland, they stick with Xorg. They
realize that their crashes are not related to bugs in their code (many
of them don't, so they blame Audacity, Pitivi, Steam, etc.), but to
Wayland or some other related component, they start to avoid the
Gnome/Wayland session and it is reasonable to receive mails like the one
from Howard Howell (the user who started this discussion).

Note: some users have a password-less account, and it is not possible to
set an alternative session from GDM if you have no password (the gear
icon appears only when GDM prompts for the password), so the user should
set a password first, log out, select Gnome with Xorg, log in, remove
the password (this is not related with Wayland, it is just a usability
issue with GDM and/or with the Gnome user settings control panel).


Cheers,
Frafra
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Tom Hughes]

On 21/01/18 12:06, Graham Leggett wrote:

On 20 Jan 2018, at 8:24 PM, Alec Leamas  wrote:


I'm sorry, but wyland is a disaster for me.  I do work on lots
of different software platforms, and things are just not working well.
They kind-of-work, which is the really worst condition one can have.


For me, this looks more like a support issue and as such doesn't not
belong to this development list. I suggest that you:


I disagree, this looks like an overarching observation of interest to the development community. 


Not really. It's a grab bag of different things that may or not be 
related to Wayland.


As Alec said, it's a support issue for now where each point needs to be 
investigated to determine a cause.



Anyone else seen this as a pattern?


No.

Tom

--
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://compton.nu/
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Graham Leggett]

On 20 Jan 2018, at 8:24 PM, Alec Leamas  wrote:

>>  I'm sorry, but wyland is a disaster for me.  I do work on lots
>> of different software platforms, and things are just not working well. 
>> They kind-of-work, which is the really worst condition one can have. 
> 
> For me, this looks more like a support issue and as such doesn't not
> belong to this development list. I suggest that you:

I disagree, this looks like an overarching observation of interest to the 
development community. Anyone else seen this as a pattern?

Regards,
Graham
—



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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Alec Leamas]

On 20/01/18 19:14, Howard Howell wrote:
> Hi, guys,
>   I'm sorry, but wyland is a disaster for me.  I do work on lots
> of different software platforms, and things are just not working well. 
> They kind-of-work, which is the really worst condition one can have. 

For me, this looks more like a support issue and as such doesn't not
belong to this development list. I suggest that you:

  - Reach out for help in a support channel e. g. Ask Fedora [1]
  - When you do, divide you problems into small, well-defined ones,
giving folks a chance to help
  - Learn to spell Wayland ;)


Cheers!

--alec


[1] https://ask.fedoraproject.org/en/questions/
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