Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
On 05/14/2012 08:15 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: On Mon, 2012-05-14 at 11:49 -0700, John Reiser wrote: On 05/12/2012 09:51 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote: On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 11:00:48AM -0400, Adam Jackson wrote: So the set of people we'd be inconveniencing is exactly the set of people with no bandwidth and the inability to boot from anything larger than a CD. Not only that - the people who have no bandwidth, the inability to boot from anything larger than a CD and no USB ports that can be bootstrapped from a bootloader sitting on a CD or floppy. USB has been required by Microsoft's logo program since 1999 and was effectively ubiquitous on Pentium 2 before that, so the set of hardware we're ruling out is at least 13 years old and more realistically probably 15. We've already dropped support for x86 hardware that was in production more recently than that. Reality can differ from the press releases. I have two running machines that contradict the conclusions above. Instead of 13 or 15 years, such an effective cutoff would be closer to about 8 years. I consider that to be uncomfortably young to be declared obsolete, especially when the declaration is issued at the end of a release cycle instead of at the beginning. The most important issue in this thread is ability to boot from USB2.0. No, it isn't. mjg59 wrote: the inability to boot from anything larger than a CD and no USB ports that can be bootstrapped from a bootloader sitting on a CD or floppy. So you're talking past each other. You are assuming that direct boot from USB is the minimum. Matthew reckons bootstrapping from a CD or floppy is fine. You can bootstrap from a CD to then boot from USB drives: Example: http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/16822/boot-from-a-usb-drive-even-if-your-bios-wont-let-you/ . -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
On Tue, 2012-05-15 at 09:52 -0400, Gerry Reno wrote: The most important issue in this thread is ability to boot from USB2.0. No, it isn't. mjg59 wrote: the inability to boot from anything larger than a CD and no USB ports that can be bootstrapped from a bootloader sitting on a CD or floppy. So you're talking past each other. You are assuming that direct boot from USB is the minimum. Matthew reckons bootstrapping from a CD or floppy is fine. You can bootstrap from a CD to then boot from USB drives: Example: http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/16822/boot-from-a-usb-drive-even-if-your-bios-wont-let-you/ U...yes. That's exactly what mjg59 said and what I pointed out more clearly that he said. Your saying it again does not immediately appear to contribute much to the debate. :) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
On 05/15/2012 12:21 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: On Tue, 2012-05-15 at 09:52 -0400, Gerry Reno wrote: The most important issue in this thread is ability to boot from USB2.0. No, it isn't. mjg59 wrote: the inability to boot from anything larger than a CD and no USB ports that can be bootstrapped from a bootloader sitting on a CD or floppy. So you're talking past each other. You are assuming that direct boot from USB is the minimum. Matthew reckons bootstrapping from a CD or floppy is fine. You can bootstrap from a CD to then boot from USB drives: Example: http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/16822/boot-from-a-usb-drive-even-if-your-bios-wont-let-you/ U...yes. That's exactly what mjg59 said and what I pointed out more clearly that he said. Your saying it again does not immediately appear to contribute much to the debate. :) Just a concrete example for those that like such things. :-) . -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
On 05/12/2012 09:51 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote: On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 11:00:48AM -0400, Adam Jackson wrote: So the set of people we'd be inconveniencing is exactly the set of people with no bandwidth and the inability to boot from anything larger than a CD. Not only that - the people who have no bandwidth, the inability to boot from anything larger than a CD and no USB ports that can be bootstrapped from a bootloader sitting on a CD or floppy. USB has been required by Microsoft's logo program since 1999 and was effectively ubiquitous on Pentium 2 before that, so the set of hardware we're ruling out is at least 13 years old and more realistically probably 15. We've already dropped support for x86 hardware that was in production more recently than that. Reality can differ from the press releases. I have two running machines that contradict the conclusions above. Instead of 13 or 15 years, such an effective cutoff would be closer to about 8 years. I consider that to be uncomfortably young to be declared obsolete, especially when the declaration is issued at the end of a release cycle instead of at the beginning. The most important issue in this thread is ability to boot from USB2.0. Although the Microsoft logo endorsement may have required USB since 1999, USB1.1 (12Mbit/s) was sufficient in the early years, and the ability to boot from USB also was not required at first. In my experience, the ability to boot from USB2.0 was not common in consumer hardware until around 2005 [see USB mass storage in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB2.0#USB_2.0 ] which is only 7 years ago. Below are the details on my counterexamples. Exactly eleven years ago in May 2001 I purchased new from Dell an Inspiron 4000 laptop: 700MHz/550MHz Pentium III (Coppermine: sse but no sse2), 16KB L1, 256KB L2, 64MB RAM, ATI Rage128 graphics, 10GB harddrive, CD drive, outboard floppy, 10/100 ethernet, 33.6Kb winmodem, VGA out, projector out, serial, parallel, dock, audio in/out, IrDA, dual PCMCIA slots, 1 PS/2, and 1 USB *1.1* port (12Mbit/s); WindowsME [logo] installed. The laptop was positioned towards the high end of the SOHO (Small Office / Home Office) market. Its outstanding feature is a 1024x768 display panel; at the time many others were 800x600. Over the years the machine has been upgraded to 384MB RAM, 40GB harddrive, and USB2.0 via PCMCIA card. With a new battery and charger it still provides hours of use per charge. The laptop cannot boot from USB, and the BIOS also has the 1023-cylinder limit for booting. None of the Fedora install .iso contain a CD-to-USB trampoline for booting. Thus I copy the kernel and initrd onto a small partition that resides below cylinder 1024, and boot them specifying root=live:CDLABEL=label. Yesterday I used this technique successfully to install default Graphical Desktop of Fedora 17 TC5 from 4GB USB2.0 flash media. Install took 80 minutes (versus 17 minutes on a 3GHz Core-i5), and the LED for harddrive activity indicated page thrashing during only a few packages. Using DVD it may have taken about 3 hours or more because of time for seeks and for spin up/down on longer packages. Gnome3 runs acceptably in fallback mode; XFCE runs well. LibreOffice Writer does not lag. So a CD-to-USB trampoline with good Usability for booting the installer might remove the obsolete tag on this laptop. After the laptop, about one year later in 2002 I built a desktop using ASUS P4B266 board: 1.6 GHz Pentium4 (Northwood: NetBurst with sse2), 2x256MB DDR (DDR1; now 2x512MB), PATA harddrives [upgraded twice], CD drive [upgraded to DVD], 2x USB1.1, 4x USB2.0, AGP+PCI slots, etc. Except for being self-built, the box qualified for WindowsME logo. Although the hardware was still not old in 2003/2004, the BIOS cannot boot from USB. Only two weeks ago, both Fry's and Newegg [leading parts sellers in USA] had a sale on 1GB DDR1 DIMM ($42.) This machine runs Windows XP, Fedora Core 4 (with Win4Lin), and Fedora 17. Its only detrimental factors are its louder fans (2nd generation, along with power supply), and the current ATI Radeon 9250 graphics card [RV280; new in 2006] which Gnome3 does not support except in fallback mode. XFCE runs well. Not being able to boot from USB2.0 casts a shadow on this box that is otherwise as good as new in 2003/2004, or even more recently than that in some ways. -- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
That doesn't seem to contradict me? If we went with this approach then we'd obviously want to include a CD-USB bootloader, but otherwise it sounds like there'd be no problem doing a USB install on that hardware. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
On Mon, 2012-05-14 at 11:49 -0700, John Reiser wrote: On 05/12/2012 09:51 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote: On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 11:00:48AM -0400, Adam Jackson wrote: So the set of people we'd be inconveniencing is exactly the set of people with no bandwidth and the inability to boot from anything larger than a CD. Not only that - the people who have no bandwidth, the inability to boot from anything larger than a CD and no USB ports that can be bootstrapped from a bootloader sitting on a CD or floppy. USB has been required by Microsoft's logo program since 1999 and was effectively ubiquitous on Pentium 2 before that, so the set of hardware we're ruling out is at least 13 years old and more realistically probably 15. We've already dropped support for x86 hardware that was in production more recently than that. Reality can differ from the press releases. I have two running machines that contradict the conclusions above. Instead of 13 or 15 years, such an effective cutoff would be closer to about 8 years. I consider that to be uncomfortably young to be declared obsolete, especially when the declaration is issued at the end of a release cycle instead of at the beginning. The most important issue in this thread is ability to boot from USB2.0. No, it isn't. mjg59 wrote: the inability to boot from anything larger than a CD and no USB ports that can be bootstrapped from a bootloader sitting on a CD or floppy. So you're talking past each other. You are assuming that direct boot from USB is the minimum. Matthew reckons bootstrapping from a CD or floppy is fine. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
On 11/05/12 00:30, Adam Jackson wrote: So the set of people we'd be inconveniencing is exactly the set of people with no bandwidth and the inability to boot from anything larger than a CD. The way forward for those cheap machines on cheap networks is to let them boot from CD but to then pull most of the installation from USB hard disk or flash. I believe that this amounts to little more than a better description in the documentation. As for your question about numbers, the high end machines coming through my local PCs for the poor refurbisher (www.aspitech.com.au) have DVD-ROM drives (ie, even those more expensive machines can't write a DVD image, but can write a CD image). So this isn't only a third-world issue, but one faced by anyone trying to get Linux running whilst on low income. -- Glen Turner www.gdt.id.au/~gdt -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 11:00:48AM -0400, Adam Jackson wrote: So the set of people we'd be inconveniencing is exactly the set of people with no bandwidth and the inability to boot from anything larger than a CD. Not only that - the people who have no bandwidth, the inability to boot from anything larger than a CD and no USB ports that can be bootstrapped from a bootloader sitting on a CD or floppy. USB has been required by Microsoft's logo program since 1999 and was effectively ubiquitous on Pentium 2 before that, so the set of hardware we're ruling out is at least 13 years old and more realistically probably 15. We've already dropped support for x86 hardware that was in production more recently than that. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
On 05/10/12 17:00, Adam Jackson wrote: On Thu, 2012-05-10 at 09:16 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Adam Jackson wrote: Even if all of your objections are true, and who knows, they might be: we already do provide alternatives. The Live media is not the only install media. The other alternatives are either already DVDs or netinstall CDs which require a fast Internet connection (which people who don't even have a DVD drive are unlikely to have). So the set of people we'd be inconveniencing is exactly the set of people with no bandwidth and the inability to boot from anything larger than a CD. Do we think that's a statistically significant number of people, or are we just arguing? I suspect the number is pretty small if non-zero at all. Fedora raises the hardware requirements now and then. The minimum cpu required for i386 was changed a few versions back. Likewise very old gfx cards tend to not be supported very well (see the guy running F11 for that reason). You need a not too small amout of memory to run the livecd and the anaconda installer. I guess it is pretty hard to find hardware which runs f18 well and can not boot from dvd or usb ... Also, can the netinst.iso install from local media too? A usb key for example? So you can use netinst.iso @ CD and install-dvd @ usbkey to install if your box can boot from cd only ... cheers, Gerd -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
Gerd Hoffmann wrote: Also, can the netinst.iso install from local media too? A usb key for example? So you can use netinst.iso @ CD and install-dvd @ usbkey to install if your box can boot from cd only ... Why do we have to complicate things so much instead of just stopping the creeping biggerism? Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:12 PM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: Gerd Hoffmann wrote: Also, can the netinst.iso install from local media too? A usb key for example? So you can use netinst.iso @ CD and install-dvd @ usbkey to install if your box can boot from cd only ... Why do we have to complicate things so much instead of just stopping the creeping biggerism? Even without minidebug info we already don't have enough space. No office suite on the deskop spin; no translations on the kde spin We complicate things by insisting that a CD is the upper limit. Which might have been true in the 90s but sure isn't in 2012. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 3:56 PM, drago01 drag...@gmail.com wrote: Even without minidebug info we already don't have enough space. No office suite on the deskop spin; no translations on the kde spin We complicate things by insisting that a CD is the upper limit. Which might have been true in the 90s but sure isn't in 2012. Even in 2012 I can see many systems people still use without any DVD drive or network connections. LiveCD still helps to install the latest Fedora in those systems and has been very useful in general. Kushal -- http://fedoraproject.org http://kushaldas.in -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:31 PM, Kushal Das kushal...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 3:56 PM, drago01 drag...@gmail.com wrote: Even without minidebug info we already don't have enough space. No office suite on the deskop spin; no translations on the kde spin We complicate things by insisting that a CD is the upper limit. Which might have been true in the 90s but sure isn't in 2012. Even in 2012 I can see many systems people still use without any DVD drive or network connections. Where do you see them? How many? Can they just use USB? -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 4:35 PM, drago01 drag...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:31 PM, Kushal Das kushal...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 3:56 PM, drago01 drag...@gmail.com wrote: Even without minidebug info we already don't have enough space. No office suite on the deskop spin; no translations on the kde spin We complicate things by insisting that a CD is the upper limit. Which might have been true in the 90s but sure isn't in 2012. Even in 2012 I can see many systems people still use without any DVD drive or network connections. Where do you see them? How many? Can they just use USB? I see them regularly in India, people don't upgrade their hardware that frequently. LiveUSB they can use, but sending out/copying/burning LiveCD is much easier solution in most cases. Kushal -- http://fedoraproject.org http://kushaldas.in -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
On May 11, 2012, at 4:12 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: Why do we have to complicate things so much instead of just stopping the creeping biggerism? This is a very old debate. How is it surprising that computers, year over year, for many years now, have faster CPUs, more RAM and disk capacity, and faster Internet connections Recipe to stop biggerism: Stop upgrading everything. Chris Murphy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
Adam Jackson wrote: Even if all of your objections are true, and who knows, they might be: we already do provide alternatives. The Live media is not the only install media. The other alternatives are either already DVDs or netinstall CDs which require a fast Internet connection (which people who don't even have a DVD drive are unlikely to have). Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
On 05/09/2012 03:07 PM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: I know I've said this before, but: we should break the CD size barrier precisely so people can't burn things to CDs. If you must burn to optical media, do yourself a favor and burn a DVD, the reduced seek time is entirely worth it. I'd like to break CD limit too but we should not forgot there are users for which CD is top technology from dreams and we have a lot of these users among some countries... For me personally CD is history, even DVD, same 1 GB flash drive. We can afford it. But some people can't and are our users thanks to the ability to get a cheap OS, that can run on cheap HW and is still modern. The question is - how many people will be affected? Or should we provide some fallback option - stripped down CD media size image? And make the bigger one primary one? R. I like the idea of a separate stripped down live CD image. But it doesn't have to be too stripped down. What if we made the LXDE and/or Xfce spin's CD size, while the Gnome and KDE live images would be DVD size. *braces for the Gnome is our default desktop replies* Troy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
On Thu, 2012-05-10 at 09:16 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Adam Jackson wrote: Even if all of your objections are true, and who knows, they might be: we already do provide alternatives. The Live media is not the only install media. The other alternatives are either already DVDs or netinstall CDs which require a fast Internet connection (which people who don't even have a DVD drive are unlikely to have). So the set of people we'd be inconveniencing is exactly the set of people with no bandwidth and the inability to boot from anything larger than a CD. Do we think that's a statistically significant number of people, or are we just arguing? - ajax signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Adam Jackson a...@redhat.com wrote: On Thu, 2012-05-10 at 09:16 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Adam Jackson wrote: Even if all of your objections are true, and who knows, they might be: we already do provide alternatives. The Live media is not the only install media. The other alternatives are either already DVDs or netinstall CDs which require a fast Internet connection (which people who don't even have a DVD drive are unlikely to have). So the set of people we'd be inconveniencing is exactly the set of people with no bandwidth and the inability to boot from anything larger than a CD. Do we think that's a statistically significant number of people, or are we just arguing? Would be interesting to get some input from lower-income countries. Ambassadors from those countries could perhaps tell us about the hardware which is most common. Johannes - ajax -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
On May 10, 2012, at 9:00 AM, Adam Jackson wrote: So the set of people we'd be inconveniencing is exactly the set of people with no bandwidth and the inability to boot from anything larger than a CD. Do we think that's a statistically significant number of people, or are we just arguing? Isn't it also true the Live CD is English only? English + ancient hardware + middle of nowhere. Quite honestly, this sounds like rural America (we have piss poor bandwidth in this country). Chris Murphy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
Chris Murphy wrote: Isn't it also true the Live CD is English only? Most of the CDs carry translations, the KDE one does not though, due to how KDE translations work (they sit in huge kde-l10n-* packages). The idea is that you install from the live CD and then you install the translation for your language(s) only. I have no need for every single kde- l10n-* langpack shipped by upstream. Hardly anybody does. Most people need only one or two languages. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 5:22 PM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: - Original Message - On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 16:07 -0400, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: I know I've said this before, but: we should break the CD size barrier precisely so people can't burn things to CDs. If you must burn to optical media, do yourself a favor and burn a DVD, the reduced seek time is entirely worth it. I'd like to break CD limit too but we should not forgot there are users for which CD is top technology from dreams and we have a lot of these users among some countries... For me personally CD is history, even DVD, same 1 GB flash drive. We can afford it. But some people can't and are our users thanks to the ability to get a cheap OS, that can run on cheap HW and is still modern. The question is - how many people will be affected? Or should we provide some fallback option - stripped down CD media size image? And make the bigger one primary one? Even if all of your objections are true, and who knows, they might be: we already do provide alternatives. The Live media is not the only install media. Yep, it's not the only way, we even have our bigger offering already. And yeah, let's break CD rule but first - let ask if it still apply or not. Maybe it's my imagination and 3rd world is not anymore interested in this :) For example to Africa, we even do not ship CDs but DVDs - so at least, most people have a DVD-ROM drive :) The reason is - network bandwidth and Installation DVD fits more packages... An alternative would be to ship a live DVD, right? How hard is it to create a live DVD? Why do we not leave the decision of choosing between a live CD and a live DVD as the live image, to the spin maintainers? Even better, (hypothetically) a spin can choose to have both a live CD and a live DVD. Orcan -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
I know I've said this before, but: we should break the CD size barrier precisely so people can't burn things to CDs. If you must burn to optical media, do yourself a favor and burn a DVD, the reduced seek time is entirely worth it. I'd like to break CD limit too but we should not forgot there are users for which CD is top technology from dreams and we have a lot of these users among some countries... For me personally CD is history, even DVD, same 1 GB flash drive. We can afford it. But some people can't and are our users thanks to the ability to get a cheap OS, that can run on cheap HW and is still modern. The question is - how many people will be affected? Or should we provide some fallback option - stripped down CD media size image? And make the bigger one primary one? R. 1G fits on both the smallest MiniDVD format and most extant USB sticks. Let's do it already. - ajax -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 10:07 PM, Jaroslav Reznik jrez...@redhat.com wrote: I know I've said this before, but: we should break the CD size barrier precisely so people can't burn things to CDs. If you must burn to optical media, do yourself a favor and burn a DVD, the reduced seek time is entirely worth it. I'd like to break CD limit too but we should not forgot there are users for which CD is top technology from dreams and we have a lot of these users among some countries... Where are the numbers to back this nonsense up? A DVD burner costs ~12 € ... and any computer that old isn't really that capable of running fedora reasonably anyway. For me personally CD is history, even DVD, same 1 GB flash drive. We can afford it. But some people can't and are our users thanks to the ability to get a cheap OS, that can run on cheap HW and is still modern. See above. The question is - how many people will be affected? Or should we provide some fallback option - stripped down CD media size image? And make the bigger one primary one? Well anyone can create a specialized spin for ancient hardware, but we should not restrict ourselves because of ancient hardware. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
If you watch, you can get DVD burners for about $15 USD. eg: http://slickdeals.net/permadeal/62972/newegg-liteon-external-cddvd-burner-w-lightscribe-support Or used for about $5-$10 at any flea market. On 05/09/2012 04:33 PM, drago01 wrote: On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 10:07 PM, Jaroslav Reznik jrez...@redhat.com wrote: I know I've said this before, but: we should break the CD size barrier precisely so people can't burn things to CDs. If you must burn to optical media, do yourself a favor and burn a DVD, the reduced seek time is entirely worth it. I'd like to break CD limit too but we should not forgot there are users for which CD is top technology from dreams and we have a lot of these users among some countries... Where are the numbers to back this nonsense up? A DVD burner costs ~12 € ... and any computer that old isn't really that capable of running fedora reasonably anyway. For me personally CD is history, even DVD, same 1 GB flash drive. We can afford it. But some people can't and are our users thanks to the ability to get a cheap OS, that can run on cheap HW and is still modern. See above. The question is - how many people will be affected? Or should we provide some fallback option - stripped down CD media size image? And make the bigger one primary one? Well anyone can create a specialized spin for ancient hardware, but we should not restrict ourselves because of ancient hardware. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
On May 9, 2012, at 2:07 PM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: I'd like to break CD limit too but we should not forgot there are users for which CD is top technology from dreams and we have a lot of these users among some countries... For me personally CD is history, even DVD, same 1 GB flash drive. We can afford it. But some people can't and are our users thanks to the ability to get a cheap OS, that can run on cheap HW and is still modern. The question is - how many people will be affected? Or should we provide some fallback option - stripped down CD media size image? And make the bigger one primary one? Is it marginally easier to stay below the CD size limit with 32-bit builds vs 64-bit? i.e. could Fedora retain Live CD for i386, and move to a Live DVD for x86_64? Or what problems are there abandoning Live CD for 10% (by estimates thus far), but retaining the ability to use netinst.iso for that hardware? I think the negative loss of this hardware for Live Desktop trial is minimal compared to the gain by dropping the limit. But if it's almost trivial to have two Live Desktop builds: CD and DVD, then I'd suggest that route. Chris Murphy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 16:07 -0400, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: I know I've said this before, but: we should break the CD size barrier precisely so people can't burn things to CDs. If you must burn to optical media, do yourself a favor and burn a DVD, the reduced seek time is entirely worth it. I'd like to break CD limit too but we should not forgot there are users for which CD is top technology from dreams and we have a lot of these users among some countries... For me personally CD is history, even DVD, same 1 GB flash drive. We can afford it. But some people can't and are our users thanks to the ability to get a cheap OS, that can run on cheap HW and is still modern. The question is - how many people will be affected? Or should we provide some fallback option - stripped down CD media size image? And make the bigger one primary one? Even if all of your objections are true, and who knows, they might be: we already do provide alternatives. The Live media is not the only install media. - ajax signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
- Original Message - On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 16:07 -0400, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: I know I've said this before, but: we should break the CD size barrier precisely so people can't burn things to CDs. If you must burn to optical media, do yourself a favor and burn a DVD, the reduced seek time is entirely worth it. I'd like to break CD limit too but we should not forgot there are users for which CD is top technology from dreams and we have a lot of these users among some countries... For me personally CD is history, even DVD, same 1 GB flash drive. We can afford it. But some people can't and are our users thanks to the ability to get a cheap OS, that can run on cheap HW and is still modern. The question is - how many people will be affected? Or should we provide some fallback option - stripped down CD media size image? And make the bigger one primary one? Even if all of your objections are true, and who knows, they might be: we already do provide alternatives. The Live media is not the only install media. Yep, it's not the only way, we even have our bigger offering already. And yeah, let's break CD rule but first - let ask if it still apply or not. Maybe it's my imagination and 3rd world is not anymore interested in this :) For example to Africa, we even do not ship CDs but DVDs - so at least, most people have a DVD-ROM drive :) The reason is - network bandwidth and Installation DVD fits more packages... R. - ajax -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
On 05/09/2012 01:33 PM, drago01 wrote: On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 10:07 PM, Jaroslav Reznik jrez...@redhat.com wrote: I'd like to break CD limit too but we should not forgot there are users for which CD is top technology from dreams and we have a lot of these users among some countries... Where are the numbers to back this nonsense up? A DVD burner costs ~12 € ... and any computer that old isn't really that capable of running fedora reasonably anyway. Such a claim is FALSE. My 700MHz PentiumIII with 384MB RAM runs Fedora 11 just fine. OpenOffice is eminently usable, for example. It's a 2001 laptop that has only CD-ROM and USB1.1, and the BIOS cannot boot from USB. I have added USB2.0 via PCMCIA card, and somewhere around Fedora 12 could boot from external DVD via USB2.0 (via trampoline from the harddrive) because the PCMCIA drivers for the bridge that enables the USB2.0 card were in the initrd. But then the PCMCIA drivers were dropped from initrd, so it no longer boots newer Fedora from DVD. Meanwhile deteriorating support for RagePro graphics has nudged me back to Fedora 11. Fedora 11 is only 3 years old. -- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
On 05/09/2012 05:34 PM, John Reiser wrote: On 05/09/2012 01:33 PM, drago01 wrote: On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 10:07 PM, Jaroslav Reznik jrez...@redhat.com wrote: I'd like to break CD limit too but we should not forgot there are users for which CD is top technology from dreams and we have a lot of these users among some countries... Where are the numbers to back this nonsense up? A DVD burner costs ~12 € ... and any computer that old isn't really that capable of running fedora reasonably anyway. Such a claim is FALSE. My 700MHz PentiumIII with 384MB RAM runs Fedora 11 just fine. OpenOffice is eminently usable, for example. It's a 2001 laptop that has only CD-ROM and USB1.1, and the BIOS cannot boot from USB. I have added USB2.0 via PCMCIA card, and somewhere around Fedora 12 could boot from external DVD via USB2.0 (via trampoline from the harddrive) because the PCMCIA drivers for the bridge that enables the USB2.0 card were in the initrd. But then the PCMCIA drivers were dropped from initrd, so it no longer boots newer Fedora from DVD. Meanwhile deteriorating support for RagePro graphics has nudged me back to Fedora 11. Fedora 11 is only 3 years old. Just install over the network and not be stuck in Fedora 11. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
John Reiser wrote: My 700MHz PentiumIII with 384MB RAM If Fedora Live media is going to be held back due to your requirements then I'm going to find myself a new distro to contribute to. Yes, Fedora Live media should support a *reasonable* set of hardware. Your hardware is no longer *reasonable*. It is time to move on. End of discussion - as you will end up dragging this on until the horse is a ghost (it is already a skeleton). If the infrastructure team wants to increase default Live image sizes to 1GB then they should do it. If you want to create your own, custom Live image on that P3 you can easily do so[1]. I'd expect it will take about a week to complete. It takes my year old Core i5 about 15 minutes to perform the same operation. [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_create_and_use_a_Live_CD -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
On 05/09/2012 05:34 PM, John Reiser wrote: On 05/09/2012 01:33 PM, drago01 wrote: A DVD burner costs ~12 € ... and any computer that old isn't really that capable of running fedora reasonably anyway. Such a claim is FALSE. My 700MHz PentiumIII with 384MB RAM runs Fedora 11 just fine. OpenOffice is eminently usable, for example. It's a 2001 laptop that has only CD-ROM and USB1.1, and the BIOS cannot boot from USB. I have added USB2.0 via PCMCIA card, and somewhere around Fedora 12 could boot from external DVD via USB2.0 (via trampoline from the harddrive) because the PCMCIA drivers for the bridge that enables the USB2.0 card were in the initrd. But then the PCMCIA drivers were dropped from initrd, so it no longer boots newer Fedora from DVD. Meanwhile deteriorating support for RagePro graphics has nudged me back to Fedora 11. Fedora 11 is only 3 years old. Would that laptop not have a floppy disk that'd let you boot in combination with an external USB flash/CD/DVD drive? 1-2GB flash drives cost 2-3$ so they would be the cheapest/simplest thing to use if your system doesn't already have a DVD. The next best thing would be an external USB DVD burner that should be less than $30 or so, and is actually a good thing to have around the den anyway. This reminds me of the old days in the mid- to late 90s when we were running DCLUG Linux Installfests in Washington DC and RedHat crew drove up from North Carolina, to test their install process. People would bring the strangest hardware, and we'd give it our best, sometimes working the entire afternoon on the most recalcitrant systems. That experience taught me to make a judgement call: while, on one hand, hardware constraints are good because they keep things honest and simple, and make things fast on modern hardware, at the same time some limitations are just too onerous. I would say that BIOS inability to boot off USB devices crosses that line. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 15:17 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: But if it's almost trivial to have two Live Desktop builds: CD and DVD, then I'd suggest that route. I can tell you it's very unlikely they'd both get comprehensively QA'ed. And the more spins we have, the more likely some of them are to fail to build. We actually already nominally *have* a 1G sized desktop spin, but it's rarely actually spun so it's often broken. See fedora-live-desktop.ks vs. fedora-livecd-desktop.ks. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: default media size [Was: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo]
Dne 9.5.2012 23:34, John Reiser napsal(a): On 05/09/2012 01:33 PM, drago01 wrote: On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 10:07 PM, Jaroslav Reznikjrez...@redhat.com wrote: I'd like to break CD limit too but we should not forgot there are users for which CD is top technology from dreams and we have a lot of these users among some countries... Where are the numbers to back this nonsense up? A DVD burner costs ~12 € ... and any computer that old isn't really that capable of running fedora reasonably anyway. Such a claim is FALSE. My 700MHz PentiumIII with 384MB RAM runs Fedora 11 just fine. OpenOffice is eminently usable, for example. It's a 2001 laptop that has only CD-ROM and USB1.1, and the BIOS cannot boot from USB. I have added USB2.0 via PCMCIA card, and somewhere around Fedora 12 could boot from external DVD via USB2.0 (via trampoline from the harddrive) because the PCMCIA drivers for the bridge that enables the USB2.0 card were in the initrd. But then the PCMCIA drivers were dropped from initrd, so it no longer boots newer Fedora from DVD. Meanwhile deteriorating support for RagePro graphics has nudged me back to Fedora 11. Fedora 11 is only 3 years old. This discussion is about Live CD of F18+, so don't worry, nobody will increase Live CD size of F11 ;) Vit -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
