disabling suspend
Hey all, I spent the past 15 minutes digging through the wiki and devel threads from the past 3 months and I couldn't find out how to stop an XO from suspending except for the manual "touch /etc/ohm/inhibit-idle-suspend" that Chris told me about the other day. Could someone please explain the necessary D-BUS command so it can be added to appropriate places (e.g. w.l.o, Activity Handbook, Sugar Almanac) where people can find the information? This is really a feature that should be added to the Sugar Control Panel but since that's not going to be initially available for G1G1 2008 users I would suggest that we at least come up with an activity that allows people (*cough* "donors" *cough*) to easily enable / disable the suspend mode when needed (e.g. watching movies with mplayer on airplanes). By the way, regardless of the endless BS "reply to" discussion last week I would prefer it if people actually CC'ed me on any replies. Thanks, Christoph -- Christoph Derndorfer Co-Editor OLPCnews, http://www.olpcnews.com ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: 8.2.0 Release Notes
I think you should just start a page... Thanks, Kim On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Greg Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi All, > > Who is writing the release notes for 8.2.0? > > I am seeing a lot of good info on improvements pass by in e-mail or in > Trac exchanges (e.g. http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/7443#comment:3). I > want to start capturing them somewhere so users can see what > changes/benefits are in the release. > > Maybe we can talk about this in the release meeting today... > > Thanks, > > Greg S > > ___ > Devel mailing list > Devel@lists.laptop.org > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel > ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Puritan F-9-based builds.
On Tue, Jul 08, 2008 at 08:55:48PM -0400, Michael Stone wrote: > On Tue, Jul 08, 2008 at 08:40:36PM -0400, Michael Stone wrote: > > * updates to the puritan UI and the f9 compilation which make combine to > > deliver a bootable image. (As of this instant, you'll need to start X > > manually with olpc-dm) > > In the build I created, NM did not start automatically. I'm not sure > whether this was because I entered the wrong runlevel by default or > because of some other configuration error. At any rate, the failure of > NM to start caused the PS to fail when it checked the return code of > 'route -n' (I assume because no interfaces were configured) which in > turn killed Sugar. Sigh. The latest puritan f9 compilation now correctly starts NM and enters runlevel 5 by default. (Turns out that I removed those options early in the F-9 rebase process and forgot to restore them. Grr.) Anyway, while I'm sure that other bugs remain, Puritan HEAD is now officially capable of generating testable F-9-based builds. Michael ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Colour blindness
The good news is that the green we use is pretty close to the peak luminance sensitivity, maximizing the available contrast. In general, green is a very good choice in regard to contrast to black. -walter ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Incidental notes.
On Tue, Jul 08, 2008 at 08:40:36PM -0400, Michael Stone wrote: > * updates to the puritan UI and the f9 compilation which make combine to > deliver a bootable image. (As of this instant, you'll need to start X > manually with olpc-dm) In the build I created, NM did not start automatically. I'm not sure whether this was because I entered the wrong runlevel by default or because of some other configuration error. At any rate, the failure of NM to start caused the PS to fail when it checked the return code of 'route -n' (I assume because no interfaces were configured) which in turn killed Sugar. Sigh. Michael ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Incidental notes.
On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 8:40 PM, Michael Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I worked on a couple of things over the weekend that may be of interest
> to random passers-by. They include:
>
> * new rainbow ('cli' branch of users/mstone/security) and nss-rainbow
> source code which lets you use rainbow from the command line and which
> permits rainbow to add accounts to the system without touching
> /etc/passwd or /etc/group
>
> * updates to the puritan UI and the f9 compilation which make combine to
> deliver a bootable image. (As of this instant, you'll need to start X
> manually with /
>
> Both are quite raw and are certainly buggy; hence, I don't really
> recommend them for the faint-of-heart. However, both do let you do some
> cool things that are difficult to achieve with other technology.
>
> These will each make their way into testing packages "someday soon".
> Poke me if you want to see them sooner.
cool! keep up the good work :) I've got so much I'm suppose to be
doing but its hard not to want to play with these...
Bobby
> Michael
>
> P.S. - Is sugar supposed to crash if the PS is unavailable on startup?
> ___
> Devel mailing list
> Devel@lists.laptop.org
> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
>
___
Devel mailing list
Devel@lists.laptop.org
http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Incidental notes.
I worked on a couple of things over the weekend that may be of interest
to random passers-by. They include:
* new rainbow ('cli' branch of users/mstone/security) and nss-rainbow
source code which lets you use rainbow from the command line and which
permits rainbow to add accounts to the system without touching
/etc/passwd or /etc/group
* updates to the puritan UI and the f9 compilation which make combine to
deliver a bootable image. (As of this instant, you'll need to start X
manually with /
Both are quite raw and are certainly buggy; hence, I don't really
recommend them for the faint-of-heart. However, both do let you do some
cool things that are difficult to achieve with other technology.
These will each make their way into testing packages "someday soon".
Poke me if you want to see them sooner.
Michael
P.S. - Is sugar supposed to crash if the PS is unavailable on startup?
___
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Devel@lists.laptop.org
http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
New joyride build 2131
http://xs-dev.laptop.org/~cscott/olpc/streams/joyride/build2131 Changes in build 2131 from build: 2130 Size delta: 0.13M -kernel 2.6.25-20080707.2.olpc.00b8fa8a2453d91 +kernel 2.6.25-20080708.1.olpc.198241e96d5b267 -olpc-utils 0.77-1.olpc3 +olpc-utils 0.78-1.olpc3 -- This mail was automatically generated See http://dev.laptop.org/~rwh/announcer/joyride-pkgs.html for aggregate logs See http://dev.laptop.org/~rwh/announcer/joyride_vs_update1.html for a comparison ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Colour blindness
Hi, > Hi all, I'm not sure this is the right list for this, but I had > some feedback on the XO which I'm not sure has been dealt with. The > black on green keyboards apparently might be a significant issue > for children who are colourblind. I haven't pursued this but had > the question posed from an education specialist I'm working with. > Has anyone looked at this or have any feedback about it? The hue of a color changes with colorblindness, but not its intensity -- as long as the green we use is light enough, the worst (and rarest) case visually would be black on light grey, and much more likely is the green being perceived as somewhere between a light red and light green (protanope or deuteranope). The black keycaps would be perceived very clearly in all cases. Here's a useful website that will render a web page as if it were being seen by a colorblind person: http://colorfilter.wickline.org/?a=1;r=;l=9;j=1;u=flickr.com/photos/lesliewong/2127314893/sizes/o;t=p - Chris. -- Chris Ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: (another) WebKit port of Browse
On Tue, 8 Jul 2008, Carol Lerche wrote: So there are two threads here, the first being authentication and the second whether the standard browser could be used (I am still interested in a user story as to why collaborative browsing is interesting/useful as opposed to a shared bookmark or scrapbook). I don't know how relavent it is, but I know that there is a fair bit of commercial implemened shared browsing for the purpose of teaching/troubleshooting with remote users. example you are trying to use an online banking application and run into a problem. you can call the banks support number and they have you go to a different URL that acts as a man-in-the-middle proxy, providing the same display to both you and the callcenter person you are on the phone with. you go through and show where you have problems and the callcenter person provides guidence and assistance (the better implementations have the ability to require that you enter your password and the callcenter person doesn't have any way of seeing it) David Lang___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Colour blindness
Hi Walter, > The most typical color-blindless is a red-green confusion. Black-green > should not be an issue as this is contrast in value, not chroma. > However, the point is well taken. Some of the on-screen color > combinations may well be problematic. The general rule of thumb is to > provide at least two Munsell value steps of contrast to ensure enough > contrast for legibility. I think we are OK on the keyboard itself in > that respect. OK, great. The education specialist said the black on green wasn't a high enough contrast. I'm happy to follow this up with the local vision and accessibility authority if that would be useful. By the way, lovely to meet you :) Cheers, Pia -- OLPC Australia http://olpc.org.au/ Linux Australia http://linux.org.au/ Open Source Industry Australia http://osia.net.au/ Software Freedom Day http://softwarefreedomday.org/ "There is no darkness but ignorance." - William Shakespeare ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Colour blindness
The most typical color-blindless is a red-green confusion. Black-green should not be an issue as this is contrast in value, not chroma. However, the point is well taken. Some of the on-screen color combinations may well be problematic. The general rule of thumb is to provide at least two Munsell value steps of contrast to ensure enough contrast for legibility. I think we are OK on the keyboard itself in that respect. -walter On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 7:42 PM, Pia Waugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm not sure this is the right list for this, but I had some feedback on the > XO which I'm not sure has been dealt with. The black on green keyboards > apparently might be a significant issue for children who are colourblind. I > haven't pursued this but had the question posed from an education specialist > I'm working with. > > Has anyone looked at this or have any feedback about it? > > Thanks all! > > Cheers, > Pia > > -- > OLPC Australia http://olpc.org.au/ > Linux Australia http://linux.org.au/ > Open Source Industry Australia http://osia.net.au/ > Software Freedom Day http://softwarefreedomday.org/ > > "What are we doing today brain?" > "We're taking over the world like we always do." > - Pinky and the Brain > ___ > Devel mailing list > Devel@lists.laptop.org > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel > ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Colour blindness
Hi all, I'm not sure this is the right list for this, but I had some feedback on the XO which I'm not sure has been dealt with. The black on green keyboards apparently might be a significant issue for children who are colourblind. I haven't pursued this but had the question posed from an education specialist I'm working with. Has anyone looked at this or have any feedback about it? Thanks all! Cheers, Pia -- OLPC Australia http://olpc.org.au/ Linux Australia http://linux.org.au/ Open Source Industry Australia http://osia.net.au/ Software Freedom Day http://softwarefreedomday.org/ "What are we doing today brain?" "We're taking over the world like we always do." - Pinky and the Brain ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
fonts in Tk-inter problem
I'm trying to get IDLE running on my XO, so that I can show Python development directly on it. IDLE needs Tk-inter to run. I've installed it, and IDLE runs. The font is very small. However I can't get tk to recognize fonts or size changes. If I open Options/Configure IDLE.../'Fonts/Tabs', I only see 'fixed' for a font, and size changes aren't honored. If I run tkFont.py in its demo mode the first line I get back contains "'family': 'fixed'" when it should say "'family': 'times'". Also the size isn't honored in the dialog it opens. If I do a fc-list, it reports that I have a lot of fonts on the XO. Does anyone know where the ball is getting dropped, and what I can do about it? Thanks, Bob ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
permission to add activity to joyride
Hi, I 'm asking for permission to add an activity to Joyride to be used primarily for debugging cerebro. This activity provides these features: - presence (list of users with picture (avatar) and distances) - profiles as shared by each user - file transfer - chat - a bidding game (sell that pencil!) Screenshots from a GTK-based (to be sugarized) version are here: http://lyme.media.mit.edu/cerebro/index.php/Screenshots#GTK-based_UI thanks, Pol -- Polychronis Ypodimatopoulos Graduate student Viral Communications MIT Media Lab Tel: +1 (617) 459-6058 http://www.mit.edu/~ypod/ ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] (another) WebKit port of Browse
Hi, We (I) are indeed porting Gears to browse (the main reason being offline Moodle), and I'd like to be informed if the standard browser for the XO changes, so I know what else to port to, but for now, the majority of the work has been done, and the source code allows for integration with a wide variety of browsers (from konquerer and safari, to Opera and IE6) so using a custom browser (as long as its based on XULRunner 1.8 or 1.9) is no problem. There has also been some thought as to whether to make a plugins/extensions capable attachment to browse (for now the plugins seems to work ok) that would be compatible with FF3 extensions... but this has not been decided yet. Documentation on all of this is not only lacking, its non existent on the web too... I'll try to remedy some of this, after the plugin has been implemented... for future projects with similar goals... Kind Regards, David Van Assche On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 1:06 AM, Carol Lerche <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The UI seems pretty important to me, but obviously that's a matter of > taste. Not everyone likes tabbed browsing. Correct operation of websites > that fail with the extant browser. Direct availability of plugins and > addons. One example: scrapbook, a superb research tool. Another example > Google Gears (according to a recent mail being ported, presumably because > the browser is not standard). I am not familiar with the Firefox codebase, > and perhaps all these things are directly available so long as the Firefox 3 > engine is there, but if so, there desperately needs to be a detailed body of > documentation telling how to access these capabilities. > > On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 3:56 PM, Bobby Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > >> 2008/7/7 Carol Lerche <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: >> > Client certs can be used for authentication with no changes to a Firefox >> > browser or an Apache server. GTK based as well as web based software to >> > create certs also already exists. What sort of patch are you looking >> for? >> > I could certainly provide a page running in an apache server to validate >> a >> > request for and implant a client cert in a Firefox browser. The issue >> of >> > certificate creation needs a little more discussion, not because it is >> > difficult or requires a lot of new software to execute, but because it >> is >> > important to be clear about the requirements. When you describe the >> > overhead, do you mean the overhead of creating the certs? Examining >> them >> > when someone first logs on? >> > >> > I raised this alternative because you said that a bespoke browser was a >> > requirement to have automatic authentication with the school server. To >> me, >> > the benefits of running a standard browser are so substantial that this >> > trade off should be considered. >> >> Can you explain these benefits? Both Gecko and WebKit are standard >> browser engines. I don't see much to be gained from a UI perspective >> (which presumably is what you're taking about?) by switching to FF3. >> Performance is the only compelling reason I see. >> >> Bobby >> >> > On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 3:39 PM, Martin Langhoff < >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 7:20 PM, Carol Lerche <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> > Why does automatic authentication require a custom browser? Client >> >> > certificates work well for this function in ordinary web applications >> >> > (assuming a properly configured server). >> >> >> >> I haven't delved into this deeply yet, but I suspect that, while I am >> >> fond of client certs, they won't work - SSL network and CPU overhead >> >> and sidestepping PKI madness for server certs. More on this when I get >> >> to implement it. >> >> >> >> Now, anyone who wants to have a strong say on how I am developing this >> >> is free to start implementing it ahead of me, and showing me some >> >> fantastic patches :-) >> >> >> >> cheers, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> m >> >> -- >> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- School Server Architect >> >> - ask interesting questions >> >> - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first >> >> - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Frisbeetarianism is the belief that when you die, your soul goes up on >> the >> > roof and gets stuck -- George Carlin >> > ___ >> > Devel mailing list >> > Devel@lists.laptop.org >> > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel >> > >> > >> > > > > -- > Frisbeetarianism is the belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the > roof and gets stuck -- George Carlin > > ___ > Sugar mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar > > ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora Coordination
> And they are, in fact, succeeding, even though the open source community > has largely turned its collective back on that success. Which is, I think, a > shame. Bravo for Greg, but this is overstated: not the succeeding part, the turning its back part. -walter On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 6:25 PM, Michael Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Folks, > > The inimitable Greg DeKoenigsberg just landed a whopper on > fedora-devel-list@: > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-July/msg00433.html > > which is quite worthy of your questions and follow-ups. The folks > replying to that thread are masters of the Fedora technologies and are > all people you should go to when you need help understanding the Fedora > Way. > > Go introduce yourselves and your actual needs - I promise they won't > bite... much. :) > > Michael > > P.S. - Jeff's and Peter's call for a Sugar SIG seems like an easy thing > for SugarLabs to get behind! > ___ > Devel mailing list > Devel@lists.laptop.org > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel > ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora Coordination
> And they are, in fact, succeeding, even though the open source community > has largely turned its collective back on that success. Which is, I think, a > shame. Bravo for Greg, but this is overstated: not the succeeding part, the turning its back part. -walter On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 6:25 PM, Michael Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Folks, > > The inimitable Greg DeKoenigsberg just landed a whopper on > fedora-devel-list@: > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-July/msg00433.html > > which is quite worthy of your questions and follow-ups. The folks > replying to that thread are masters of the Fedora technologies and are > all people you should go to when you need help understanding the Fedora > Way. > > Go introduce yourselves and your actual needs - I promise they won't > bite... much. :) > > Michael > > P.S. - Jeff's and Peter's call for a Sugar SIG seems like an easy thing > for SugarLabs to get behind! > ___ > Devel mailing list > Devel@lists.laptop.org > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel > ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Init for the customization key
Ah - ok. Thanks a lot :-). Warm regards, Sayamindu On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 3:57 AM, Michael Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 03:50:51AM +0530, Sayamindu Dasgupta wrote: >> Hi Michael, > >> Just to confirm - the init file for the customization key is at >> http://dev.laptop.org/git?p=users/mstone/irfs-udebs;a=blob;f=src-olpc/init >> right ? > > Actually, it's in users/cscott/olpcrd-rootskel. > >> Also, is there any documentation anywhere which would instruct me on >> how to build a customization key after I have modified the init >> scripts ? > > > See http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Building_initramfsen for instructions. > > Regards, > > Michael > -- Sayamindu Dasgupta [http://sayamindu.randomink.org/ramblings] ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Init for the customization key
On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 03:50:51AM +0530, Sayamindu Dasgupta wrote: > Hi Michael, > Just to confirm - the init file for the customization key is at > http://dev.laptop.org/git?p=users/mstone/irfs-udebs;a=blob;f=src-olpc/init > right ? Actually, it's in users/cscott/olpcrd-rootskel. > Also, is there any documentation anywhere which would instruct me on > how to build a customization key after I have modified the init > scripts ? See http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Building_initramfsen for instructions. Regards, Michael ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Fedora Coordination
Folks, The inimitable Greg DeKoenigsberg just landed a whopper on fedora-devel-list@: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-July/msg00433.html which is quite worthy of your questions and follow-ups. The folks replying to that thread are masters of the Fedora technologies and are all people you should go to when you need help understanding the Fedora Way. Go introduce yourselves and your actual needs - I promise they won't bite... much. :) Michael P.S. - Jeff's and Peter's call for a Sugar SIG seems like an easy thing for SugarLabs to get behind! ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Log Activity log posting.
It appears that logs posted in the Log Activity go, by default, to olpc.scheffers.net/olpc/submit.tcl Pascal - can you provide access to these logs? Thanks, Michael ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Introduction to `picker' and git link
Riccardo, Your graphs would be more helpful if they gave more information about exactly which processes were running. "python (pid)" doesn't really tell me what's going on. Perhaps you could modify the display so that each track is prominently labeled with the full arguments to the process? Thanks, Michael ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Introduction to `picker' and git link
Hi, as part of my intern work on profiling sugar, I've written a little application for gathering system and per process statistic from /proc called. It may reveal itself useful in catching interferences between processes or when profiling cpu/mem usage of long running processes. In fact there are two executables, picker and grapher. For my purposes picker is run on the xo and grapher on a pc to output pretty figures from the statistics blob generated by the first. An example figure can be found at: (it's quite big; better not to open it in a browser) wget http://www.bodhidharma.info/out.grapher.svg This figure shows the xo boot (starting from start() in sshd's init script) and lasts for 120sec (the sampling rate is 10Hz); the figure was generated by only showing the processes with higher cpu-time and that took up to 75% of the total cpu-time taken by all processes running on the xo for the `picking' time. In the future grapher may be extended to show more info, and maybe integrate timed sugar debug logs. Git tree is at: git+ssh://[EMAIL PROTECTED]/git/activities/picker Both executables take the -h option. Questions, hints, requests or bug reports .. I appreciate them all ;) Thanks, riccardo ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Reminder: Tuesday Release & Wednesday Software Meetings -- 2:00 PM EDT, #olpc-meeting on irc.freenode.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > sameer wrote: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > sameer wrote: > > > > > > > > Ubuntu uses Gobby for its UDS (Ubuntu Developer Summit) meetings and > it > > > > works quite well. > > > > > > perhaps they have a usage model (guidelines) that would be > > > interesting to look at. > > > > > Overall UDS participation instructions from the Sevilla UDS at > > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-Sevilla/Participate and Boston UDS at > > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-Boston/Participate > > > > it's not clear from those pages, but it looks like they may use > gobby only for the doc editing feature. VOIP and IRC are used > for chat. > > Yes, Gobby is used for taking notes. Each topic discussed ends up into a document. Someone (probably pre-assigned) has to save it locally. Gobby does support chat, but UDS uses IRC and VoIP (as far as I know). Gobby screenshot http://gobby.0x539.de/screenshots/gobby-0.4.5-linux.png Sameer -- Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Information Systems San Francisco State University San Francisco CA 94132 USA http://verma.sfsu.edu/ http://opensource.sfsu.edu/ ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] ssl authentication [was (another) WebKit port of Browse]
On Jul 8, 2008, at 5:31 PM, Carol Lerche wrote: > This is an assertion, not an argument. It is also factually > incorrect. I have no interest in arguing with you; you're obviously free to ignore my advice. -- Ivan Krstić <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | http://radian.org ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Reminder: Tuesday Release & Wednesday Software Meetings -- 2:00 PM EDT, #olpc-meeting on irc.freenode.org
sameer wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > sameer wrote: > > > > > > Ubuntu uses Gobby for its UDS (Ubuntu Developer Summit) meetings and it > > > works quite well. > > > > perhaps they have a usage model (guidelines) that would be > > interesting to look at. > > > Overall UDS participation instructions from the Sevilla UDS at > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-Sevilla/Participate and Boston UDS at > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-Boston/Participate > it's not clear from those pages, but it looks like they may use gobby only for the doc editing feature. VOIP and IRC are used for chat. paul =- paul fox, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] ssl authentication [was (another) WebKit port of Browse]
On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 6:31 PM, Carol Lerche <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This is an assertion, not an argument. It is also factually incorrect. And needless to argue over it if we can get instead some working code. :-) m -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Reminder: Tuesday Release & Wednesday Software Meetings -- 2:00 PM EDT, #olpc-meeting on irc.freenode.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > sameer wrote: > > > > Ubuntu uses Gobby for its UDS (Ubuntu Developer Summit) meetings and it > > works quite well. > > perhaps they have a usage model (guidelines) that would be > interesting to look at. > > paul > =- > paul fox, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ___ > Devel mailing list > Devel@lists.laptop.org > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel > Overall UDS participation instructions from the Sevilla UDS at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-Sevilla/Participate and Boston UDS at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-Boston/Participate Sameer -- Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Information Systems San Francisco State University San Francisco CA 94132 USA http://verma.sfsu.edu/ http://opensource.sfsu.edu/ ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] ssl authentication [was (another) WebKit port of Browse]
Ivan writes:: While you may believe the setup you have in mind is easy and uncomplicated, the odds are *overwhelmingly*, **super-stunningly** stacked against you to make PKI work the way you want in production. The fact that TLS client certs, in particular, have zero commercial end-user deployment uptake, should tell you something.I cannot recommend more strongly to stay the bloody hell away from the entire real PKI/X.509/CAs morass. A solution based on e.g. SSH and key continuity is, while certainly less traditional, enormously likely to work out better in practice. This is an assertion, not an argument. It is also factually incorrect. ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
New joyride build 2130
http://xs-dev.laptop.org/~cscott/olpc/streams/joyride/build2130 Changes in build 2130 from build: 2129 Size delta: 0.27M -xorg-x11-utils 7.3-3.fc9 +xorg-x11-utils 7.4-1.fc9 -vnc 4.1.2-30.fc9 +vnc 4.1.2-31.fc9 +cerebro 2.9.2-1.olpc3 -gdb 6.8-10.fc9 +gdb 6.8-11.fc9 -coreutils 6.10-25.fc9 +coreutils 6.10-27.fc9 -cups-libs 1:1.3.7-2.fc9 +cups-libs 1:1.3.7-8.fc9 -evolution-data-server 2.22.2-1.fc9 +evolution-data-server 2.22.3-1.fc9 -gail 1.22.1-1.fc9 +gail 1.22.3-1.fc9 -gnome-keyring 2.22.1-1.fc9 +gnome-keyring 2.22.3-1.fc9 -gstreamer-plugins-good 0.10.8-5.fc9 +gstreamer-plugins-good 0.10.8-7.fc9 -gtk2 2.12.10-2.fc9 +gtk2 2.12.11-1.fc9 -gtk2-engines 2.14.2-1.fc9 +gtk2-engines 2.14.3-1.fc9 -gtksourceview2 2.2.1-1.fc9 +gtksourceview2 2.2.2-1.fc9 -libSM 1.0.2-5.fc9 +libSM 1.1.0-1.fc9 -libpciaccess 0.10-2.fc9 +libpciaccess 0.10.3-2.fc9 -libwnck 2.22.1-1.fc9 +libwnck 2.22.3-1.fc9 +mesa-dri-drivers 7.1-0.37.fc9 -mesa-libGL 7.1-0.35.fc9 +mesa-libGL 7.1-0.37.fc9 -pango 1.20.1-1.fc9 +pango 1.20.4-1.fc9 -popt 1.13-3.fc9 +popt 1.13-4.fc9 -tzdata 2008c-1.fc9 +tzdata 2008d-1.fc9 -vnc-libs 4.1.2-30.fc9 +vnc-libs 4.1.2-31.fc9 -wavpack 4.41-2.fc9 +wavpack 4.50-1.fc9 -xorg-x11-drv-evdev 1.99.1-0.5.fc9 +xorg-x11-drv-evdev 2.0.1-1.fc9 -xorg-x11-drv-vesa 1.3.0-15.20080404.fc9 +xorg-x11-drv-vesa 2.0.0-1.fc9 --- Changes for xorg-x11-utils 7.4-1.fc9 from 7.3-3.fc9 --- + xdpyinfo 1.0.3 + xprop 1.0.4 + xwininfo 1.0.4 --- Changes for vnc 4.1.2-31.fc9 from 4.1.2-30.fc9 --- + enabled XKEYBOARD extension (#450033) + improved IPv6 support in viewer (#438422) --- Included cerebro version 2.9.2-1.olpc3 --- --- Changes for gdb 6.8-11.fc9 from 6.8-10.fc9 --- + Fix crash due to calling an inferior function right after a watchpoint stop. --- Changes for coreutils 6.10-27.fc9 from 6.10-25.fc9 --- + who -r should not show last runlevel for nonprintable chars + print verbose output of chcon with newline after each --- Changes for evolution-data-server 2.22.3-1.fc9 from 2.22.2-1.fc9 --- + Update to 2.22.3 + Rebuild against libldap.a w/ NTLM support in openldap-2.4.8-5.fc9 to --- Changes for gail 1.22.3-1.fc9 from 1.22.1-1.fc9 --- + Update to 1.22.3 --- Changes for gnome-keyring 2.22.3-1.fc9 from 2.22.1-1.fc9 --- + Update to 2.22.3 --- Changes for gstreamer-plugins-good 0.10.8-7.fc9 from 0.10.8-5.fc9 --- + gst-plugins-good-0.10.8-speex-nego.patch: Backport speex channel and + Really fix the default audio output not being correct --- Changes for gtk2 2.12.11-1.fc9 from 2.12.10-2.fc9 --- + Update to 2.12.11 + Fix a crash if the modifier map is empty + Sets default paper size according to default paper size of + Resolves: #204621 + Correction of hostname of printer which is the print job sent to. + Resolves: #248245 --- Changes for gtk2-engines 2.14.3-1.fc9 from 2.14.2-1.fc9 --- + Update to 2.14.3 --- Changes for gtksourceview2 2.2.2-1.fc9 from 2.2.1-1.fc9 --- + Update to 2.2.2 --- Changes for libSM 1.1.0-1.fc9 from 1.0.2-5.fc9 --- + libSM 1.1.0 --- Changes for libpciaccess 0.10.3-2.fc9 from 0.10-2.fc9 --- + Fix file access mode in config fd cache. (#452910) + libpciaccess 0.10.3 + libpciaccess-no-pci-fix.patch: Fix init when /sys/bus/pci is empty or --- Changes for libwnck 2.22.3-1.fc9 from 2.22.1-1.fc9 --- + Update to 2.22.3 --- Included mesa-dri-drivers version 7.1-0.37.fc9 --- --- Changes for pango 1.20.4-1.fc9 from 1.20.1-1.fc9 --- + Update to 1.20.4 + add sparc64 to multilib handling --- Changes for popt 1.13-4.fc9 from 1.13-3.fc9 --- + Solved multilib problems at doxygen generated files (#342921) --- Changes for tzdata 2008d-1.fc9 from 2008c-1.fc9 --- + Upstream 2008d + Changes for Brazil and Mauritius --- Changes for wavpack 4.50-1.fc9 from 4.41-2.fc9 --- + Version 4.50 --- Changes for xorg-x11-drv-evdev 2.0.1-1.fc9 from 1.99.1-0.5.fc9 --- + evdev 2.0.1 + evdev 2.0.0 + evdev 1.99.4 --- Changes for xorg-x11-drv-vesa 2.0.0-1.fc9 from 1.3.0-15.20080404.fc9 --- + vesa 2.0.0 -- This mail was automatically generated See http://dev.laptop.org/~rwh/announcer/joyride-pkgs.html for aggregate logs See http://dev.laptop.org/~rwh/announcer/joyride_vs_update1.html for a comparison ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] ssl authentication [was (another) WebKit port of Browse]
On Jul 8, 2008, at 2:46 PM, Carol Lerche wrote: > I am puzzled about the PKI infrastructure you envision. I envision > having a > private certificate authority that runs on the teacher's XO and > keeps its > keystore on a USB thumb drive. To summarize for those who haven't heard me rant about this in person: actual PKI is almost never the answer. It is a question, and the answer is "hell, no." While you may believe the setup you have in mind is easy and uncomplicated, the odds are *overwhelmingly*, **super-stunningly** stacked against you to make PKI work the way you want in production. The fact that TLS client certs, in particular, have zero commercial end-user deployment uptake, should tell you something. I cannot recommend more strongly to stay the bloody hell away from the entire real PKI/X.509/CAs morass. A solution based on e.g. SSH and key continuity is, while certainly less traditional, enormously likely to work out better in practice. -- Ivan Krstić <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | http://radian.org ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
How to improve the state of the touchpad for August.
Greg, Touchpad bug summary, as of May: http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/devel/2008-May/013580.html Suggestions: * There's no release contract material ready here yet -- people are optimistic that they will be able to improve the user experience of the touchpad but no one wants to be pinned down to say that they can 'fix' the issue, particularly given that there are likely hardware bugs which cannot be fixed or fully avoided. * Deepak, Andres, and Richard are the current people responsible for generating changes that attempt to fix touchpad bugs. * I am very happy to include changes which fix touchpad bugs in existing release contracts like the "Kernel Refresh" contract. * I suggest that you triage some of the touchpad bugs described above (perhaps as blockers for the release?) if you want to give better visibility into their state. Alternately, we can update my email from may with new status on all the bugs. Michael ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Reminder: Tuesday Release & Wednesday Software Meetings -- 2:00 PM EDT, #olpc-meeting on irc.freenode.org
sameer wrote: > > Ubuntu uses Gobby for its UDS (Ubuntu Developer Summit) meetings and it > works quite well. perhaps they have a usage model (guidelines) that would be interesting to look at. paul =- paul fox, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Home View appearance
Not 'Home View', but still: >> Another problem is that the Activity button (the 4th zoom level) can >> select the Journal if that was the last active activity. It has an own >> button so I cannot see any reason why it has to be the way it is. It is >> an annoyance that when I download several things then go from Browse to >> the Journal, open the pdf in Read, close Read and click the button it >> switches back to Journal and not Browse. It should not treat Journal as >> an application. Eben wrote: > Hmmm, that's not quite how it should work. While we do technically > treat the Journal as an activity, it should always be the bottom-most > activity on the stack. That is, you should only ever be switched to > it when there are no other open activities left, which is reasonable, > since the Journal is a point to resume activities from. If you can > confirm this behavior in a recent joyride, could you make a ticket and > indicate what build number you tested on? If Eben's description (Journal is at the bottom of the stack) gets implemented soon, my complaint will be moot. But in older Joyride implementations (I don't know about the latest), the Journal *does* get put where the Activity Zoom key goes to it. The result is that when I press the 'Magnifying Lens' key, I go to Journal. Then when I press the 'Activity Zoom' key, I stay in the Journal (and need to use an alt-tab sequence, or Frame) to get back to the Activity I was in. I would like a 'simple' way to get back to where I was. If 'Activity Zoom' will not do that, perhaps the 'Magnifying Lens' key could be made into a TOGGLE -- if one is not in Journal, the screen switches to Journal; if one *is* in Journal, the screen switches to the non-Journal Activity on the stack. mikus ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Reminder: Tuesday Release & Wednesday Software Meetings -- 2:00 PM EDT, #olpc-meeting on irc.freenode.org
Hi, > We'd like to try out using Gobby to record the agenda and minutes > for Tuesday's release meeting. If you have an XO and will be > joining the meeting, please run "yum install gobby" beforehand, or > "apt-get install gobby" on an Ubuntu laptop. The server will be at > pullcord.laptop.org. And here are our minutes and action items: Attendance: cjb cscott erikg dsd pgf dsaxena tomeu ypod dgilmore bemasc bert Charlie (Celkan) Kim mstone Gregorio unmadindu walter martin_xsa eben Minutes: * Ypod mentioned that it's hard to get the hang of Koji. We agreed, and offered to sit down with him to explain. Cjb asserted that a package being outside of Koji should not impede that package making it into a build for testing via the dropbox system. AI: cjb and mstone to meet with ypod. * Trac process: In response to ticket workflow questions (specifically: when should tickets get closed), Michael suggested the following process through Trac "next action" states: code -> package -> add to build -> developer test in build After testing, the developer tags the bug with the results, e.g.: joyride-2126:-or joyride-2126:+ if +, the developer moves the ticket's "next action" to "finalize" QA will then close the ticket at some later stage, perhaps after making relevant additions to the release notes. AI: Joe will call a Trac meeting to discuss this later this week. * The changelog tools we have aren't very good. We should improve them. AI: Chris, Michael and Dennis to meet to work on changelog tools. * Which build should be used for testing? Joyride-2128 -- earlier builds lost olpc-netlog, which is required for testing. * Metrics for "release readiness". cscott sent mail to devel recapping the "state of the update.1" email AI: Chris to help with finding a metric we can use to define release-readiness, such as (but better than) number of blocker bugs open. * Better user feedback from the field? David Cavallo wants to talk to us about what the learning team is up to later this week. * Greg brought up there not being a release contract for touchpad improvements. The touchpad driver change is now present in latest joyrides; needs testing. * Status of 8.2.0. AI: Michael to send out 8.2.0 status e-mail by Friday. Should identify a "test candidate" and maybe a short explanation of what to expect from it. AI: Joe to test joyride-2128, report back. * How will we write release notes for 8.2? Mstone, Greg, Kim and Jim will do so together here: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_8.2.0_Software_Release_Notes Thanks, - Chris. -- Chris Ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: (another) WebKit port of Browse
On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 3:07 PM, Martin Langhoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Please point me to your notes on this, if you would be so kind. > > There aren't any, unfortunately. I had to read idmgr to understand the > protocol - so read the source. It is a trivial xml-rpc. Ah, apologies, wrong answer. I do have some mental notes, but you might want to read idmgr before getting both of us into such trouble :-) cheers, m -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: (another) WebKit port of Browse
On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 8:59 PM, C. Scott Ananian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 2:34 PM, Tomeu Vizoso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> If we just added a number of extensions to Firefox either in C++ or >> JS, could we deliver as much to the kids that want to study and modify >> the software on their machines? > > Yes. Firefox has a much better integrated IDE for XUL/JS work than we > have for Python. Cool, and can you call any c library in the system like you can with python's ctypes? Or are you restricted to either JS files and XPCOM or C++? Tomeu ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Reminder: Tuesday Release & Wednesday Software Meetings -- 2:00 PM EDT, #olpc-meeting on irc.freenode.org
Martin Langhoff wrote: > On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 2:14 AM, Chris Ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> We'd like to try out using Gobby¹ to record the agenda and minutes for >> Tuesday's release meeting. >> > > Yeah. apt-cache show says > > Package: gobby > (...) > Description: collaborative text editor > > Gobby is an editor which helps your meeting stay on agenda, define > action points, and a generally hold a short, sharp and effective > meeting. Gobby with deliver swings of cluebat to anyone straying from > the agenda, nitpicking pointlessly or being contrarian for the fun of > it. > > What's not to like? :-) > > > > Ubuntu uses Gobby for its UDS (Ubuntu Developer Summit) meetings and it works quite well. Sameer -- Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Information Systems San Francisco State University San Francisco CA 94132 USA http://verma.sfsu.edu/ http://opensource.sfsu.edu/ ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: (another) WebKit port of Browse
On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 2:34 PM, Tomeu Vizoso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If we just added a number of extensions to Firefox either in C++ or > JS, could we deliver as much to the kids that want to study and modify > the software on their machines? Yes. Firefox has a much better integrated IDE for XUL/JS work than we have for Python. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: (another) WebKit port of Browse
On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Jim Gettys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Tue, 2008-07-08 at 00:17 -0400, Mikus Grinbergs wrote: >> > Not everyone likes tabbed browsing. >> >> That may be true - but what if the user needs to reference two (or >> more) separate pages of information. If while looking at one page >> he can't remember *exactly* what the other page said, he may want to >> switch between pages. What are the alternatives to tabbed browsing? >> >> [To me, it is more logical to select a tab created under my control, >> than to select from the "previously-seen" list as presented by the >> Browse 'Back' button. And to open several instances of the existing >> Activity seems wasteful.] > > > Patches gratefully accepted. Note that due to memory usage, even tabs > have their limits (though it may be the recent improvements in Gecko > obviate this problem somewhat; it frees pixmap storage unused in finite > time). > > Note the WebKit I would hope are now similarly motivated (competition is > a wonderful thing ;-)). > - Jim I updated the WebKit Browse to use the latest GIT WebKit, merge in the latest mainline changes in Browse, and do fullpage zoom. http://dev.laptop.org/~bobbyp/Browse-93.xo Bobby (I've been watching youtube videos in WebKit/Browse a day. its a little choppy, but thats probably gstreamer/ffmpeg) > -- >> >> Jim Gettys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> One Laptop Per Child > > ___ > Devel mailing list > Devel@lists.laptop.org > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel > ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
ssl authentication [was (another) WebKit port of Browse]
> > I am puzzled about the PKI infrastructure you envision. I envision > having a > > private certificate authority that runs on the teacher's XO and keeps its > > keystore on a USB thumb drive. So my favorite CA tool is TinyCA > (currently > > version2) which is written in Perl. This works very well for me, it has > a > > GTK interface and does its PKI using OpenSSL like everyone else. This is > > what I am going to use and document to create the certs. > > That seems to require a fairly complex setup, and is vulnerable to > losing the usb drive. > The setup will be untarring a tarball. I will put the tinyca code in the tarball, so it will be where the keys are. Either the CA key material should be offline or we don't care. If we don't care, no need to store it on a USB drive. Most people think CA key material should be stored offline, but it is not a significant implementation issue. > >> - change the "Registration" protocol to grab the public part of the > ... > > Please point me to your notes on this, if you would be so kind. > > There aren't any, unfortunately. I had to read idmgr to understand the > protocol - so read the source. It is a trivial xml-rpc. > Hmmm...I thought you said you had notes, but ok. > I am a happy Perl hacker in Python land too, and I finding that > mod_python hacking is similar to mod_perl hacking. Anyway, if you can > sort out the rest, I can probably deal with the mod_python bit :-) > > And yes - using apache so far. > Hope it installs ok on an XO, which is my target "fake XS" to mimic the low-end performance. > > Note: The only thing that saddens me is that basing it on FF turns > your help into more of a political wedge than technical help. The two > issues (auth, browser) are orthogonal. Short term, we need the > authentication stuff. Scott's mumblings are about future scenarios, > and are missing a lot of aspects - see jg's post. In the best of > cases, it is a medium-term thing. > The point of authentication is web authentication by the XO to the XS, I thought. (After registration completes.) That is what I am implementing in my POC. If the browse activity in Joyride supports client certs in the same way Firefox does, I'll use it. Otherwise I'll use Scott's Firefox 3 and the authentication for Browse will have to await implementation of client certs there. This whole thread started by the assertion that Firefox 3 couldn't be used because it didn't support authentication. So I'm pretty confused by your note. > > And it is odd timing to be talking about "ah, let's change the > browser" when everyone tries to focus on 8.2.0. For example, if you do > it on Browse instead of FF, and it is a neat patch, we could argue for > inclusion in a minor update (say, 8.2.1) as it enables proper > operation of the "restore" part of backup :-) > The patch is not to the browser, since proper browsers already implement client certs. > > And that means proper backup/restore is in the hands of thousands of > kids many MANY moons earlier. Just to put the jockeying in > perspective. > > One thing at a time. -- Frisbeetarianism is the belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck -- George Carlin ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: (another) WebKit port of Browse
On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 8:23 PM, Benjamin M. Schwartz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > C. Scott Ananian wrote: > | On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 1:32 PM, Tomeu Vizoso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > |> We could add many more of the missing features to Browse if all the > |> developers weren't so busy with the rest of Sugar. Also, although most > |> of the sugar developers have occasionally hacked on Browse, we are far > |> from experts in the big piece of code that Mozilla is. > | > | This was my original point. We either have sufficient resources to > | develop our own browser, or we don't. I think it will (in the end) be > | more efficient to develop small Firefox extensions to support Journal > | integration and collaboration, rather than taxing the sugar developers > | with an attempt to (basically) reimplement large parts of firefox. > > I disagree. I expect that these two options will require a very similar > amount of code... but one of them is already largely complete (if beta), > while the other is hypothetical. > > Browse a custom UI on XULRunner, with brand-new code for sharing and > datastore access. Moving that code into extensions doesn't reduce the > amount of code. Neither of these scenarios is more "our own browser" than > the other. Adding to Ben's comments, I would like to remember that by embedding a browser widget (mozilla or webkit) inside a python activity we are giving great opportunities to hack around it, either in derivatives of Browse or in new activities. If we just added a number of extensions to Firefox either in C++ or JS, could we deliver as much to the kids that want to study and modify the software on their machines? Regards, Tomeu ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
New joyride build 2129
http://xs-dev.laptop.org/~cscott/olpc/streams/joyride/build2129 Changes in build 2129 from build: 2128 Size delta: 0.00M -sugar-journal 93-2.fc9 +sugar-journal 94-1.fc9 -sugar 0.81.5-3.20080705git5da4483a6c.olpc3 +sugar 0.81.6-1.olpc3 -sugar-base 0.81.1-2.20080703git1ca8ee3cea.olpc3 +sugar-base 0.81.2-3.fc9 -sugar-datastore 0.8.2-3.20080707git4c75dcdebd.olpc3 +sugar-datastore 0.8.3-1.olpc3 -sugar-toolkit 0.81.5-4.20080705gitab8c054dfb.olpc3 +sugar-toolkit 0.81.6-1.olpc3 --- Changes for sugar-journal 94-1.fc9 from 93-2.fc9 --- + New release --- Changes for sugar 0.81.6-1.olpc3 from 0.81.5-3.20080705git5da4483a6c.olpc3 --- + 7438 sugar shuts down when you click Restart + 7365 Invites not working + 7248 Speaker device has inconsistent behavior + 7339 CPU Spins after starting an activity + 7015 Add proper alignment support to the tray control + 5613 Cannot set non-ASCII nick name + 7046 Deleting activity bundle with journal leaves it showing in Home list view until reboot + 7391 Make the search field in Home reveal the list view + 7248 Speaker device has inconsistent behavior + 7272 Notifications are redundant with new launching feedback + 7273 Activity icons remain colored after launch --- Changes for sugar-datastore 0.8.3-1.olpc3 from 0.8.2-3.20080707git4c75dcdebd.olpc3 --- + Update to 0.8.3 --- Changes for sugar-toolkit 0.81.6-1.olpc3 from 0.81.5-4.20080705gitab8c054dfb.olpc3 --- + 7015 Add proper alignment support to the tray control + 7054 Journal doesn't show correct colors for activity instances + 7046 Deleting activity bundle with journal leaves it showing in Home list view until reboot + 3939 Keep button should use XO colors + 7248 Speaker device has inconsistent behavior -- This mail was automatically generated See http://dev.laptop.org/~rwh/announcer/joyride-pkgs.html for aggregate logs See http://dev.laptop.org/~rwh/announcer/joyride_vs_update1.html for a comparison ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: (another) WebKit port of Browse
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 C. Scott Ananian wrote: | On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 1:32 PM, Tomeu Vizoso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: |> We could add many more of the missing features to Browse if all the |> developers weren't so busy with the rest of Sugar. Also, although most |> of the sugar developers have occasionally hacked on Browse, we are far |> from experts in the big piece of code that Mozilla is. | | This was my original point. We either have sufficient resources to | develop our own browser, or we don't. I think it will (in the end) be | more efficient to develop small Firefox extensions to support Journal | integration and collaboration, rather than taxing the sugar developers | with an attempt to (basically) reimplement large parts of firefox. I disagree. I expect that these two options will require a very similar amount of code... but one of them is already largely complete (if beta), while the other is hypothetical. Browse a custom UI on XULRunner, with brand-new code for sharing and datastore access. Moving that code into extensions doesn't reduce the amount of code. Neither of these scenarios is more "our own browser" than the other. - --Ben -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkhzsIgACgkQUJT6e6HFtqRclQCfRSZXm2NgTztwVMnXMhcW4LEL CAEAoIj2t4FVX0PRqcjdAVm0PYLLHVl3 =crMM -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: (another) WebKit port of Browse
On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 8:05 PM, C. Scott Ananian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 1:32 PM, Tomeu Vizoso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> We could add many more of the missing features to Browse if all the >> developers weren't so busy with the rest of Sugar. Also, although most >> of the sugar developers have occasionally hacked on Browse, we are far >> from experts in the big piece of code that Mozilla is. > > This was my original point. We either have sufficient resources to > develop our own browser, or we don't. I think it will (in the end) be > more efficient to develop small Firefox extensions to support Journal > integration and collaboration, rather than taxing the sugar developers > with an attempt to (basically) reimplement large parts of firefox. Well, the same could be said about the rest of Sugar. If our users are better served by standard linux desktop components progressively improved for our learning goals, we should drop Sugar and go for that. >> I know that hiring takes time, I'm just making the point that doing >> the Browse activity we want for OLPC is not anything impossible nor a >> gigantic task. But requires at least focused people and efforts, and >> better if those people already have the right experience. > > And my basic point was that I thought we'd be better off leveraging > more of the upstream feature development directly, so that our Browse > would continue to improve w/o our hiring a full time Browse developer. Same as above, if OLPC's strategy is to be that, I should be working on Nautilus instead of the Journal. Again, I would like to see a list of the features actually needed by users and sales, and then revisit the decision of how OLPC should be spending its resources. In the meantime, all the testing with kids that could be done with different browsers would be very useful. > Anyway, as Martin says, this is all armchair quarterbacking until > someone gets Firefox to more-or-less the same level as Browse is now. > In my earlier part I started the process by packing Firefox 3.0 as a > self-contained .xo file (no yum required); the next steps are to > install the appropriate theme tweaks to integrate it into the sugar > look, possibly some libsugarization, and to write the extensions to > integrate with Tubes and the datastore (XUL is your friend). Sure, all this will be very interesting work regardless of which browser each deployment chooses to deploy. Regards, Tomeu ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: (another) WebKit port of Browse
On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 2:27 PM, Carol Lerche <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I can certainly produce a proof of concept for the first, > using client certs via Scott's Firefox 3. I don't think it is as hard as > you think, and I promise to provide something concrete by the end of the > weekend. Thanks! [ but do see my note at the end ] > I am puzzled about the PKI infrastructure you envision. I envision having a > private certificate authority that runs on the teacher's XO and keeps its > keystore on a USB thumb drive. So my favorite CA tool is TinyCA (currently > version2) which is written in Perl. This works very well for me, it has a > GTK interface and does its PKI using OpenSSL like everyone else. This is > what I am going to use and document to create the certs. That seems to require a fairly complex setup, and is vulnerable to losing the usb drive. >> - change the "Registration" protocol to grab the public part of the ... > Please point me to your notes on this, if you would be so kind. There aren't any, unfortunately. I had to read idmgr to understand the protocol - so read the source. It is a trivial xml-rpc. >> - figure out a way to use the existing SSH key that the XO has as the >> SSL client cert, and to detect it, and match it on the server side. > > There are a couple of ways this can work. I will implement this in my POC. Cool. >> The server-side apache-embedded code we are doing with mod_python >> handlers, and this is a perfect fit for an authen handler. > > Not promising to do the Apache side in Python for the POC. I write in Perl > by choice, so hold your nose. But are you planning to use Apache or > lighttpd for the lightweight XS? I am a happy Perl hacker in Python land too, and I finding that mod_python hacking is similar to mod_perl hacking. Anyway, if you can sort out the rest, I can probably deal with the mod_python bit :-) And yes - using apache so far. >> Counting on your help to break this silly thread with actual working code >> :-) > > I'm happy to oblige! At last a project that doesn't require me to create a > GUI. Brickbats regarding this plan of action are gratefully accepted. Note: The only thing that saddens me is that basing it on FF turns your help into more of a political wedge than technical help. The two issues (auth, browser) are orthogonal. Short term, we need the authentication stuff. Scott's mumblings are about future scenarios, and are missing a lot of aspects - see jg's post. In the best of cases, it is a medium-term thing. And it is odd timing to be talking about "ah, let's change the browser" when everyone tries to focus on 8.2.0. For example, if you do it on Browse instead of FF, and it is a neat patch, we could argue for inclusion in a minor update (say, 8.2.1) as it enables proper operation of the "restore" part of backup :-) And that means proper backup/restore is in the hands of thousands of kids many MANY moons earlier. Just to put the jockeying in perspective. m -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: (another) WebKit port of Browse
On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 1:32 PM, Tomeu Vizoso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > We could add many more of the missing features to Browse if all the > developers weren't so busy with the rest of Sugar. Also, although most > of the sugar developers have occasionally hacked on Browse, we are far > from experts in the big piece of code that Mozilla is. This was my original point. We either have sufficient resources to develop our own browser, or we don't. I think it will (in the end) be more efficient to develop small Firefox extensions to support Journal integration and collaboration, rather than taxing the sugar developers with an attempt to (basically) reimplement large parts of firefox. > I know that hiring takes time, I'm just making the point that doing > the Browse activity we want for OLPC is not anything impossible nor a > gigantic task. But requires at least focused people and efforts, and > better if those people already have the right experience. And my basic point was that I thought we'd be better off leveraging more of the upstream feature development directly, so that our Browse would continue to improve w/o our hiring a full time Browse developer. Anyway, as Martin says, this is all armchair quarterbacking until someone gets Firefox to more-or-less the same level as Browse is now. In my earlier part I started the process by packing Firefox 3.0 as a self-contained .xo file (no yum required); the next steps are to install the appropriate theme tweaks to integrate it into the sugar look, possibly some libsugarization, and to write the extensions to integrate with Tubes and the datastore (XUL is your friend). --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: (another) WebKit port of Browse
On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 6:32 PM, Jim Gettys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > 2) the lack of a certificate UI has hampered our Browse usage primarily > in G1G1 developed world situations: this tells me while it is of > concern, it's not as high priority as some other issues might be, > certainly lower than 0) or 1). This could be satisfied by adding UI to > browse, I believe. Hi, this has been fixed (by Marco) and is in the joyride builds, we are using now the same mechanism as FF3. We could add many more of the missing features to Browse if all the developers weren't so busy with the rest of Sugar. Also, although most of the sugar developers have occasionally hacked on Browse, we are far from experts in the big piece of code that Mozilla is. In my opinion, if Browse is so important for OLPC, the following should happen: - discover what the actual users (kids and teachers) need and is not yet present in Browse, - discover what the sales team need in Browse to successfully market the whole OLPC stuff (firefox brand?), - contract any of the people with actual experience in the internals of mozilla for cooperating with the current Sugar developers in order to bring those new features. I know that hiring takes time, I'm just making the point that doing the Browse activity we want for OLPC is not anything impossible nor a gigantic task. But requires at least focused people and efforts, and better if those people already have the right experience. Regards, Tomeu ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Correction: Project: Picker is set up
Tue, 8 Jul 2008 13:13:42 +0200, "Riccardo Lucchese" < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 1. Project name :Picker Done. Your tree is here: git+ssh://[EMAIL PROTECTED]/git/activities/picker Please follow instructions here for importing your project: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Importing_your_project Let us know if you have any problems with your tree. Happy hacking. Cheers, -- Henry Edward Hardy [EMAIL PROTECTED] (rlucchese not rcarrano, apologies) ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Etoys team visits Cambridge
Hi folks, many of the VPRI developers are attending the Scratch conference at MIT. We'll fly in a day early so that we would have some time on Wed. the 23rd to talk about issues, future plans, or whatever else comes up :) We're leaving Monday night so I hope there will be even more opportunities to catch up. Please contact me if you are interested in seeing us. - Bert - ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: (another) WebKit port of Browse
So there are two threads here, the first being authentication and the second whether the standard browser could be used (I am still interested in a user story as to why collaborative browsing is interesting/useful as opposed to a shared bookmark or scrapbook). While I am mostly interested in the second issue personally, I can certainly produce a proof of concept for the first, using client certs via Scott's Firefox 3. I don't think it is as hard as you think, and I promise to provide something concrete by the end of the weekend. > As to the PKI infrastructure, I don't think it is any harder to work this> out than any of the other key management issues already in play. > > Well, it's a ton of work, and if I can take you on your offer of > patches... we cannot provide a PKI infrastructure as a significant > proportion of schools is disconnected, and we are not keen on imposing > a complex school server setup procedure. So, assuming each XS does the > classic self-signed-cert creation, what we want to do is to follow the > current trust model, which is dead simple: the XO trusts the XS that > it is registered to. > I am puzzled about the PKI infrastructure you envision. I envision having a private certificate authority that runs on the teacher's XO and keeps its keystore on a USB thumb drive. So my favorite CA tool is TinyCA (currently version2) which is written in Perl. This works very well for me, it has a GTK interface and does its PKI using OpenSSL like everyone else. This is what I am going to use and document to create the certs. > > During the registration, the XO gives the XS its public SSH key. We need to > > - change the "Registration" protocol to grab the public part of the > self-signed cert, and add an exception to the PKI checks in Browse. > The registration stuff is implemented in a tool called idmgr (XS side) > and in Sugar profile (XO side). If you looking at idmgr is horrible > enough that you want to help me reimplement it, I have further notes > on that track ;-) We also need to tackle the protocol change in a > reasonably backwards compat manner. > Please point me to your notes on this, if you would be so kind. > > - figure out a way to use the existing SSH key that the XO has as the > SSL client cert, and to detect it, and match it on the server side. There are a couple of ways this can work. I will implement this in my POC. > > The server-side apache-embedded code we are doing with mod_python > handlers, and this is a perfect fit for an authen handler. > Not promising to do the Apache side in Python for the POC. I write in Perl by choice, so hold your nose. But are you planning to use Apache or lighttpd for the lightweight XS? > > Counting on your help to break this silly thread with actual working code > :-) > I'm happy to oblige! At last a project that doesn't require me to create a GUI. Brickbats regarding this plan of action are gratefully accepted. Carol Lerche ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: (another) WebKit port of Browse
On Tue, 2008-07-08 at 00:17 -0400, Mikus Grinbergs wrote: > > Not everyone likes tabbed browsing. > > That may be true - but what if the user needs to reference two (or > more) separate pages of information. If while looking at one page > he can't remember *exactly* what the other page said, he may want to > switch between pages. What are the alternatives to tabbed browsing? > > [To me, it is more logical to select a tab created under my control, > than to select from the "previously-seen" list as presented by the > Browse 'Back' button. And to open several instances of the existing > Activity seems wasteful.] Patches gratefully accepted. Note that due to memory usage, even tabs have their limits (though it may be the recent improvements in Gecko obviate this problem somewhat; it frees pixmap storage unused in finite time). Note the WebKit I would hope are now similarly motivated (competition is a wonderful thing ;-)). - Jim -- > > Jim Gettys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > One Laptop Per Child ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: (another) WebKit port of Browse
Oh, and as Walter points out, journal integration is also important to us, and necessary in any replacement. Sometimes brain is not engaged. If we can build the OLPCfs stuff that Scott has come up with, this will help unmodified apps interoperate with the journal, but I suspect for something like browse, we'd want pretty full integration. - Jim On Tue, 2008-07-08 at 12:32 -0400, Jim Gettys wrote: > Let me summarize where I think we are and/or should go and try to put > this into some context: > > 0) good rendering onto our high resolution screen is very important to > us; this is why we went with a Gecko based web browser in the first > place. Before we moved to the development builds of gecko/xulrunner, we > had terrible issues with many web site's rendering. I don't know whether > or not WebKit supports scaling at this date, but it is a question well > worth asking. This new version of Gecko etc. are slated for our next > release and are in current development builds. What is WebKit's current > capability? > > 1) memory usage is a very high concern to us. The recent work on > FF/Gecko's memory consumption and leak plugging (as reported all over > the web) is outstanding, and they should be commended for this work. > This improvement should be reflected in the current development build. > And this has a major impact on our usability. > > 2) the lack of a certificate UI has hampered our Browse usage primarily > in G1G1 developed world situations: this tells me while it is of > concern, it's not as high priority as some other issues might be, > certainly lower than 0) or 1). This could be satisfied by adding UI to > browse, I believe. > > 3) Sayamindu has made good progress toward swapping out Matchbox in > favor of a conventional window manager; once this is complete, we can > satisfy 2) at worst, by those who need it installing a standard Firefox; > one could go up from there by using a Sugar theme, to XUL chrome > modifications of arbitrary ambition; or installing your favorite web > browser of choice. This work to replace Matchbox won't make this > release, but I expect be planned on thereafter. > > 4) alternative browsers are always welcome; but, to make it as our > default browser, it needs to: > - address our rendering concerns for our screen. > - have competitive memory performance > - provide sharing features for classroom work (note that > providing only an unmodified conventional browser won't > currently have these facilities). > Additional goodness would be to have a single HTML rendering engine for > everything, to save flash space, and the certificate UI we're missing. > > I can also anticipate Javascript performance may become an issue as its > use continues to increase. > > - Jim > -- Jim Gettys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> One Laptop Per Child ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: (another) WebKit port of Browse
On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 1:32 PM, Jim Gettys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I can also anticipate Javascript performance may become an issue as its > use continues to increase. Confirming this - to work with XS-based tools nicely, JS and related tools (gears) support is a must. cheers, m -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: (another) WebKit port of Browse
Let me summarize where I think we are and/or should go and try to put this into some context: 0) good rendering onto our high resolution screen is very important to us; this is why we went with a Gecko based web browser in the first place. Before we moved to the development builds of gecko/xulrunner, we had terrible issues with many web site's rendering. I don't know whether or not WebKit supports scaling at this date, but it is a question well worth asking. This new version of Gecko etc. are slated for our next release and are in current development builds. What is WebKit's current capability? 1) memory usage is a very high concern to us. The recent work on FF/Gecko's memory consumption and leak plugging (as reported all over the web) is outstanding, and they should be commended for this work. This improvement should be reflected in the current development build. And this has a major impact on our usability. 2) the lack of a certificate UI has hampered our Browse usage primarily in G1G1 developed world situations: this tells me while it is of concern, it's not as high priority as some other issues might be, certainly lower than 0) or 1). This could be satisfied by adding UI to browse, I believe. 3) Sayamindu has made good progress toward swapping out Matchbox in favor of a conventional window manager; once this is complete, we can satisfy 2) at worst, by those who need it installing a standard Firefox; one could go up from there by using a Sugar theme, to XUL chrome modifications of arbitrary ambition; or installing your favorite web browser of choice. This work to replace Matchbox won't make this release, but I expect be planned on thereafter. 4) alternative browsers are always welcome; but, to make it as our default browser, it needs to: - address our rendering concerns for our screen. - have competitive memory performance - provide sharing features for classroom work (note that providing only an unmodified conventional browser won't currently have these facilities). Additional goodness would be to have a single HTML rendering engine for everything, to save flash space, and the certificate UI we're missing. I can also anticipate Javascript performance may become an issue as its use continues to increase. - Jim -- Jim Gettys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> One Laptop Per Child ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Project name: Picker is set up
Hi, There was a mistake on assigning the project. Thanks, riccardo On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 5:32 PM, Henry Edward Hardy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Tue, 8 Jul 2008 13:13:42 +0200, "Riccardo Lucchese" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > 1. Project name: Picker > > Done. Your tree is here: > git+ssh://[EMAIL PROTECTED]/git/activities/picker > > Please follow instructions here for importing your project: > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Importing_your_project > > Let us know if you have any problems with your tree. Happy hacking. > > Cheers, > > -- > Henry Edward Hardy > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
New joyride build 2128
http://xs-dev.laptop.org/~cscott/olpc/streams/joyride/build2128 Changes in build 2128 from build: 2126 Size delta: 0.00M -sugar-presence-service 0.81.2-2.olpc3 +sugar-presence-service 0.81.3-1.olpc3 -- This mail was automatically generated See http://dev.laptop.org/~rwh/announcer/joyride-pkgs.html for aggregate logs See http://dev.laptop.org/~rwh/announcer/joyride_vs_update1.html for a comparison ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Project name: Picker is set up
Tue, 8 Jul 2008 13:13:42 +0200, "Riccardo Lucchese" < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 1. Project name: Picker Done. Your tree is here: git+ssh://[EMAIL PROTECTED]/git/activities/picker Please follow instructions here for importing your project: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Importing_your_project Let us know if you have any problems with your tree. Happy hacking. Cheers, -- Henry Edward Hardy [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Release Status Meeting - 7/1 - Notes - Customers
Hi Kim, Scott, et al, In the meeting on 7/1 we (those who joined on time) agreed 8.2.0 is a time based release intended to include the latest code (e.g. Fedora 9 and New Sugar). I think it falls in the category of "release early and release often". I agree that it does not completely address the concerns of our early customers. The top two customer requests are improvements in touch pad and collaboration. I hope we make some progress on them in this release but neither is a gating factor AFAIK. There are three collaboration tracking items in http://dev.laptop.org/report/18 so if you can add any specific bugs to those that will help. FYI Collaboration is a hot item on the Sur list, again. This time coming out of Peru. We need to document what collaboration scenarios we support in a way that the users act on. That goes for 8.1.0, 8.1.1 and 8.2.0. Unless we deliver important and necessary improvements for Peru and Uruguay they will skip this one. That's OK as it gives us a chance to burn it in and then they can pick up the next one. It can still be a useful release for other customers and for attracting new customers. I think that's the point Kim is making. Once I get some links explaining the new features I'll put together some materials outlining their value for end users. Then we can promote the release as it stands and see how much demand there is. These action items were meant to ensure that we communicate our plan with the key customers and get their response ASAP. We're actively working on that now. In any case, this release is almost ready and we need to strike while the iron is hot! That's my take after 2.5 weeks on the job :-) Let me know if you still have concerns. Thanks, Greg S Kim Quirk wrote: > My thoughts in-line... > Kim > > On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 6:16 PM, C. Scott Ananian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 5:13 PM, Greg Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> wrote: >>> - Kim will check with Peru and Greg will check with Uruguay teams to >>> ensure that they do not plan to upgrade to 8.2.0. Action item due by >>> July 20. >> Why don't we want them to use 8.2? > > > Two reasons for Peru to stay with 8.1: > 1 - Peru has 'blessed' their build for the next 75k laptops and we got it > into production for them. It is 703+peru activities (which you knew, but may > not have thought about the reason we ECO'd it into production was so they > don't have to upgrade before giving them out to students). > > 2 - Peru has created and printed their User Manuals based on the UI of 8.1. > > We should expect and encourage them to continue on this path. We will > support 8.1 until we ship 9.1, which should work for them. That's that part > that I will confirm when I visit them. > > Greg has agreed to check in with Uruguay on where they are in their roll out > to teachers and students. > > >> I suspect some words were left out, and what you really meant was, >> "their schedules for adopting 8.2 are not pressing"? >> >> If we don't expect our two largest deployments to adopt our release, >> why are we making it? > > > KQ - We have many, many more deployments, trials, pilots, possibly G1G1, who > will be just getting their laptops when 8.2 is ready or soon there after. > This release is for them. > > Even in the case of G1G1, if those laptops go out with 8.1.1, they can MUCH > more easily be upgraded to 8.2 than was possible with earlier releases. > >> >> Something's not right here. >> >> Incidentally, on the "blocking bug" front, I notice that Uruguay's >> wireless problems with 703/708 were nowhere to be found on the roadmap >> for 8.2. This is a blocker to our producing something useful for "the >> kids". > > > KQ - Do you have a specific bug in mind? Let's make sure it gets listed when > we start listing/triaging blocking bugs (which I agree we can start doing at > any time); and make sure it is getting addressed. > >> --scott >> >> -- >> ( http://cscott.net/ ) >> ___ >> Devel mailing list >> Devel@lists.laptop.org >> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel >> > ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Subject: Re: Inappropriate use of private meetings & lists - Communication of Decisions
Hi NoiseEHC, I agree that the key problem is communication of decisions more than what decisions are being made. Several people have said that recently (e.g. localization team recently made the same point). I hope we can address this at the high level with an agreed process that include milestones for when and how we communicate release status. Scott suggested (ironically on an internal thread) that we use the Fedora process. I put his comment on the talk page of the process home: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Talk:Release_Process_Home I'll try to flesh out the milestones and key communication steps ASAP. More comments on milestones and communication points welcome. However, that wont address your need for a more granular communication of technical design decisions. People could try to communicate all of those decisions here but that can be a flood of e-mail. The only other thing I can think of is for you to ask for a final call when you need an answer. Is that viable? Any other suggestions? We need to get better at settling threads to a conclusion. Sounds like this thread was discussed but never closed. I encourage people to ask for consensus and then record a decision. The most important aspect is to say what decision has been reached. If people still object strongly you can revise as needed or in the worst case objectors can decide not to participate. Regardless, we need to communicate the current working decisions so everyone is on the same page. HTHs. We could dig deeper in to this specific example if you think that will help teach everyone better communication strategies in the future. You have been a great contributor for many months. We need more people like you in the project so I hope we can keep you happy and show that others like you will be happy participating. Thanks, Greg S Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 09:19:52 +0200 From: NoiseEHC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Inappropriate use of private meetings & lists. To: OLPC Devel Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowecd > > > > There are top-down decisions being made by a few people that drive the > > direction of OLPC. These decisions are not waiting for consensus, and > > they are made by a small number of people. I don't believe this is > > going to change (at least not in the short term). > > I, personally, do not care who makes decisions, as long as he is smart and makes "good" decisions. The problem is that usually I am not notified of such decisions. For example, the move from 32 bit to 16 bit frame buffer just happened silently. One day people debated its merits on this list without reaching any conclusions. Some months later it was 16 bit. Nobody told it. A similar thing is that I am trying to get an answer to the question whether the XO image will be moved to LZO compression or not when we will be rebased to F9. The reason is that I am currently tuning the LZO decompression code and want to know whether this effort is moot or not. Most likely this was already decided by somebody, and frankly I am not qualified enough to debate this decision, I just want to know what it is. Note that I had to reply all to this message and then delete all recipients and then replace CC devel with TO devel. The reason is that this devel list is not set up that the reply-to would be the devel list, and if I do not delete others then the conversation often slips outside devel. See, even the main mailing list is configured wrong. ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Sucrose 0.81.4 Development Release
The new Sucrose 0.81.4 Development Release is out! This first release after the feature freeze and therefore has only bug fixes. For more information what bugs have been fixed please refer to the detailed description below. Thanks to all the contributors. Checkout the detailed release notes: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/ReleaseTeam/Releases/Sucrose/0.81.4 In behalf of the Sugar community, Your release team == Glucose news == === sugar-toolkit === * #7015 Add proper alignment support to the "tray" control * #7054 Journal doesn't show correct colors for activity instances * #7046 Deleting activity bundle with journal leaves it showing in Home list view until reboot * #3939 Keep button should use XO colors * #7248 Speaker device has inconsistent behavior === sugar === * #7438 sugar shuts down when you click Restart * #7365 Invites not working * #7248 Speaker device has inconsistent behavior * #7339 CPU Spins after starting an activity * #7015 Add proper alignment support to the "tray" control * #5613 Cannot set non-ASCII nick name * #7046 Deleting activity bundle with journal leaves it showing in Home list view until reboot * #7391 Make the search field in Home reveal the list view * #7248 Speaker device has inconsistent behavior * #7272 Notifications are redundant with new launching feedback * #7273 Activity icons remain colored after launch === sugar-base === * Has gained its own translation module and some languages have already been contributed. === sugar-datastore === * Since the last release, two scripts have been added that allow for adding and retrieving items from the command line, these scripts have been contributed by Reinier Heeres and Philip Bordelon. Thanks! === sugar-presence-service === * dev.laptop.org #4757: Add ListChannels from Telepathy === etoys === * Pango fixes * updated translations: ja, de * collab refactoring in prep of tubes support * remove pre-update.1 support * ETOYS_DEBUG env var controls logging * minor fixes === journal-activity === 93-94 * contain some small bug fixes and translations for some new languages. 92-93 * #6368 Strip spaces from query terms * #7348 journal fails to show icon for mounted usb stick == Fructose news == === terminal-activity === * This release contains new translations from our translator community. === chat-activity === * #6036: Show timestamp as elapsed time instead of date (morgs) * Updated translations: fr, mvo, pis, af, sd, pap, tpi, ar, de === browse-activity === * #7281 Browse autocompletion should allow editing of suggestions * #7427 Downloads broken in Browse (interface change) * #7280 Browse autocompletion makes it impossible to type some URLs ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Home View appearance
On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 6:52 AM, NoiseEHC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Now I see that the XO icon thing is a dupe: > https://dev.laptop.org/ticket/7043 > > I do not see any connection with 7430 however. What I wanted to say is > that if you really want to keep that useless Free Form view then at > least select the Circle View by default (for the Circle vs Free Form). The connection is that, though the Freeform may be the default, you should only have to switch it once, as your choice should be preserved. There has been some disagreement on which view should be the default; time and further feedback from deployments will tell what the best choice is, I hope. > Another problem is that the Activity button (the 4th zoom level) can > select the Journal if that was the last active activity. It has an own > button so I cannot see any reason why it has to be the way it is. It is > an annoyance that when I download several things then go from Browse to > the Journal, open the pdf in Read, close Read and click the button it > switches back to Journal and not Browse. It should not treat Journal as > an application. Hmmm, that's not quite how it should work. While we do technically treat the Journal as an activity, it should always be the bottom-most activity on the stack. That is, you should only ever be switched to it when there are no other open activities left, which is reasonable, since the Journal is a point to resume activities from. If you can confirm this behavior in a recent joyride, could you make a ticket and indicate what build number you tested on? 2008/7/8 Chris Barrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Just a lowly G1G1 end user here, > > environments to what suits them, I know I certainly do. I'll add that the > addition of a choice between free-form or list view to the network pane > would also be a welcome addition for anyone trying to use the machine in > areas with many APs (not it's intended operating condition, I know). Yes indeed. That's been our plan since day one, but sadly it's slipped onto the back burner several times. Though we won't have time to add it for the August release, I have high hopes that we'll see list views in all zoom levels by the next release after that. On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 3:37 AM, NoiseEHC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Also the list view has a bug, that it does not have an XO icon which can > be clicked to get a shutdown/cpanel menu item. My suggestion is that > probably the Neighborhood/Group view's XO icon should have the same menu. Yeah this is a known "bug". We aren't quite certain whether or not the list view needs an XO, as it wouldn't fit into the same table as the activities in Home view. An alternative solution would be to ensure the "XO menu" (with shutdown, reboot, settings, etc.) is attached to your own XO in the people edge of the Frame, which is always available. Along the same lines, we agree with you that the XO in the other zoom levels should have the same palette! That's just another low priority bug that's been lingering for a while now. I'm not even sure if there's a ticket for it, though. Thanks for all the feedback everyone! Tickets are welcome if you can't find some already covering your concerns. Assign them to the interface-design component and I'll be sure to tackle them. - Eben ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
8.2.0 Release Notes
Hi All, Who is writing the release notes for 8.2.0? I am seeing a lot of good info on improvements pass by in e-mail or in Trac exchanges (e.g. http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/7443#comment:3). I want to start capturing them somewhere so users can see what changes/benefits are in the release. Maybe we can talk about this in the release meeting today... Thanks, Greg S ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Reminder: Tuesday Release & Wednesday Software Meetings -- 2:00 PM EDT, #olpc-meeting on irc.freenode.org
On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 2:14 AM, Chris Ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > We'd like to try out using Gobby¹ to record the agenda and minutes for > Tuesday's release meeting. Yeah. apt-cache show says Package: gobby (...) Description: collaborative text editor Gobby is an editor which helps your meeting stay on agenda, define action points, and a generally hold a short, sharp and effective meeting. Gobby with deliver swings of cluebat to anyone straying from the agenda, nitpicking pointlessly or being contrarian for the fun of it. What's not to like? :-) martin ps: Note - you might need to apt-get update to get the latest version shown. The cluebat pacifier feature is a recent addition. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Home View appearance
Just a lowly G1G1 end user here, I would strongly agree that the option of free form, list or ring is a great feature. The choice may be seen as unnecessary clutter but it provides an avenue of customization and familiarity for those using the device and would add to the polish of the overall design. Kids like customizing their environments to what suits them, I know I certainly do. I'll add that the addition of a choice between free-form or list view to the network pane would also be a welcome addition for anyone trying to use the machine in areas with many APs (not it's intended operating condition, I know). Just throwing that out there. -- Regards, Chris Barrett ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [Server-devel] Some documentation for DS-Backup
Hi Martin, That's a much requested feature from the field as you know! Thanks for working on it. Are you in synch with the XO side of the work needed? Can you check bug ID 7392 and confirm it covers what you need? When do you think we can release an XS image which supports this (be very conservative and no promises on date yet, just a swag for now). Bryan, If you're watching, can you read this spec and confirm it solves the problem from you perspective? If it does, its another reason to upgrade to 8.2.0 pending confirmation of the corresponding XS code... Thanks, Greg S > > -- > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 20:45:08 -0300 > From: "Martin Langhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [Server-devel] Some documentation for DS-Backup > To: "XS Devel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: OLPC Devel , [EMAIL PROTECTED], Greg Smith > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Message-ID: > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > (Sorry about the cross-post, this affects XS and XO...) > > Here is some initial documentation on DS-backup, including usage > scenarios, basic test steps, and longer-term plans > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/XS_Blueprints:Datastore_Simple_Backup_and_Restore > > cheers, > > > > m ___ Server-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/server-devel
Re: (another) WebKit port of Browse
On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 8:47 PM, Carol Lerche <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Martin -- You state that ssl at the network layer is significant. The > question is when and how much must ssl be used to authenticate with client > certs? I believe it only needs to be used during initial authentication and > again when properly designed cookies expire. Since each XO only That's a good point. > As to the PKI infrastructure, I don't think it is any harder to work this > out than any of the other key management issues already in play. Well, it's a ton of work, and if I can take you on your offer of patches... we cannot provide a PKI infrastructure as a significant proportion of schools is disconnected, and we are not keen on imposing a complex school server setup procedure. So, assuming each XS does the classic self-signed-cert creation, what we want to do is to follow the current trust model, which is dead simple: the XO trusts the XS that it is registered to. During the registration, the XO gives the XS its public SSH key. We need to - change the "Registration" protocol to grab the public part of the self-signed cert, and add an exception to the PKI checks in Browse. The registration stuff is implemented in a tool called idmgr (XS side) and in Sugar profile (XO side). If you looking at idmgr is horrible enough that you want to help me reimplement it, I have further notes on that track ;-) We also need to tackle the protocol change in a reasonably backwards compat manner. - figure out a way to use the existing SSH key that the XO has as the SSL client cert, and to detect it, and match it on the server side. The server-side apache-embedded code we are doing with mod_python handlers, and this is a perfect fit for an authen handler. Counting on your help to break this silly thread with actual working code :-) cheers, m -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: (another) WebKit port of Browse
On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 5:37 AM, C. Scott Ananian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > a) SSL overhead being "impractical"? Come on. You can use SSL on the > browser today; there is no perceptible speed difference. I agree that > client certs may be impractical, but it won't be because the XO can't > handle the computation. Scott - please! We need to raise the level of discussion here. SSL overhead on the *network* and on the XS cpu, though Carol rightly points out we don't need to carry that in all the traffic. There is a _ton_ of work on the PKI side, and she's volunteered to work on that though :-) > The real question to me is whether there are size The REAL question here is how do we stop this list being armchair quaterbacking, and start fostering coding work. This thread is a bad bad start. Someone has done a TON of work on Browse, and here is a ton of people ready to throw it out hte window based on opinions. That is *stupid*. Consider replacing it when someone comes up with *working code*. Wake me up when someone has working code - the rest is *noise*. cheers, m -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] (another) WebKit port of Browse
"Sugarizing" involves more than just the look and feel of the UI; in addition to Bitfrost considerations--raised by Bert and Mikus--and the collaboration model, there is also Journal/Datastore intergration to consider: the trivial from of Sugarizing does not result in useful Journal entries. So some downstream intervention will be needed in any case. -waltrer ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
[project account request]
1. Project name :Picker
2. Existing website, if any :
3. One-line description :Lightweight system and processes
statistics (cpu/mem/io) gatherer.
4. Longer description :Gathers system and processes statistics from /proc
:and graphs them to pretty figures.
:
:It is useful to catch interactions
between processes and study
: cpu/mem/io usage of long running processes
5. URLs of similar projects :http://www.bootchart.org/
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Please list the maintainer (lead developer) as the first entry. Only list
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Username Full name SSH2 key URLE-mail
- --
#1 riccardo Riccardo Lucchese
riccardo.lucchese gmail.com
#2
#3
...
If any developers don't have their SSH2 keys on the web, please attach them
to the application e-mail.
7. Preferred development model
[ ] Central tree. Every developer can push his changes directly to the
project's git tree. This is the standard model that will be familiar to
CVS and Subversion users, and that tends to work well for most projects.
[X] Maintainer-owned tree. Every developer creates his own git tree, or
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or more of these trees, and merge changes into the maintainer-owned,
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well-suited to projects wishing to maintain a tighter control on code
entering the main tree.
If you choose the maintainer-owned tree model, but wish to set up some
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When your project is just getting off the ground, we suggest you eschew
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If you need multiple lists, let us know. We discourage having many
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list the usernames of the committers above needing shell access.
I'd like being able to create personal git trees
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Re: Home View appearance
Now I see that the XO icon thing is a dupe: https://dev.laptop.org/ticket/7043 I do not see any connection with 7430 however. What I wanted to say is that if you really want to keep that useless Free Form view then at least select the Circle View by default (for the Circle vs Free Form). Another problem is that the Activity button (the 4th zoom level) can select the Journal if that was the last active activity. It has an own button so I cannot see any reason why it has to be the way it is. It is an annoyance that when I download several things then go from Browse to the Journal, open the pdf in Read, close Read and click the button it switches back to Journal and not Browse. It should not treat Journal as an application. Tomeu Vizoso wrote: > On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 9:37 AM, NoiseEHC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Could we at least select the ring view by default? I see the free form >> view as unnecessary crap because the last thing I want is to reorder >> icons by using the touchpad. Did anybody actually try that exercise? >> Also the list view has a bug, that it does not have an XO icon which can >> be clicked to get a shutdown/cpanel menu item. My suggestion is that >> probably the Neighborhood/Group view's XO icon should have the same menu. >> > > This is what I'm going to be working next: https://dev.laptop.org/ticket/7430 > > So will be easier for everybody to just use the view they like most. > > Regards, > > Tomeu > > > ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Home View appearance
On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 9:37 AM, NoiseEHC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Could we at least select the ring view by default? I see the free form > view as unnecessary crap because the last thing I want is to reorder > icons by using the touchpad. Did anybody actually try that exercise? > Also the list view has a bug, that it does not have an XO icon which can > be clicked to get a shutdown/cpanel menu item. My suggestion is that > probably the Neighborhood/Group view's XO icon should have the same menu. This is what I'm going to be working next: https://dev.laptop.org/ticket/7430 So will be easier for everybody to just use the view they like most. Regards, Tomeu ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] (another) WebKit port of Browse
Am 08.07.2008 um 06:35 schrieb Mikus Grinbergs: > A reference was made to Gears: >> My point was exactly that it is a plugin. >> There are other plugins that are educationally useful. > > Security. I believe that 'Browse' is restricted as to how much it > is allowed to modify the operating system itself. Such restrictions > would apply to plugins as well. That concept NEEDS to be enforced. It is. > [War story: When plugins first became available for Netscape, I > installed one. But Netscape started behaving differently from how I > had thought I had set it up. I investigated, and found out that > "under the covers" the plugin had CHANGED (without telling me) some > Netscape settings to the way *it* wanted them. Got rid of it fast.] > > My point is that a 'plugin' is typically a "binary blob" -- the > person installing it on his computer has NO IDEA as to what that > plugin might surreptitiously be doing "under the covers". And with Bitfrost the user does not *have to have an idea*. A browser plugin can *only* do what the browse activity can do. Nothing more - which is in stark contrast to what a plugin on a regular machine can do (namely, everything the user can do). - Bert - ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
[OT] Re: Home View appearance
Am 08.07.2008 um 09:37 schrieb NoiseEHC: > http://www.thewebsiteisdown.com/ Hah! Must. Stop. Laughing. It. Hurts. - Bert - ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: (another) WebKit port of Browse
On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 10:37 AM, C. Scott Ananian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The real question to me is whether there are size (memory & nand) > disadvantages to Firefox. Othewise it's just a practical problem of > finding enough resources to implement a Firefox extension to match the > current Browse functionality. As always, the question stands as if OLPC should try to do better than the current software offerings can do for its users, or if we should just use what already exists. I'm more than happy to experiment with WebKit, Firefox, etc I just hope that we make decisions based on actual feedback from our actual users. Also, we should try to think out of the box, instead of panicking and resorting to all-or-nothing final solutions. One example: what if the need underlying the request for tabs in Browse could be better fulfilled by further improving the activity switching operation in Sugar? Regards, Tomeu ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: (another) WebKit port of Browse
A couple points: a) SSL overhead being "impractical"? Come on. You can use SSL on the browser today; there is no perceptible speed difference. I agree that client certs may be impractical, but it won't be because the XO can't handle the computation. b) Many of the customization issues mooted are just as possible to implement using firefox extensions as they are using the current Browse strategy. Even simplified UI is pretty trivial to implement; see http://lifehacker.com/software/firefox/geek-to-live--consolidate-firefoxs-chrome-210542.php for example. The real question to me is whether there are size (memory & nand) disadvantages to Firefox. Othewise it's just a practical problem of finding enough resources to implement a Firefox extension to match the current Browse functionality. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Home View appearance
Could we at least select the ring view by default? I see the free form view as unnecessary crap because the last thing I want is to reorder icons by using the touchpad. Did anybody actually try that exercise? Also the list view has a bug, that it does not have an XO icon which can be clicked to get a shutdown/cpanel menu item. My suggestion is that probably the Neighborhood/Group view's XO icon should have the same menu. ps: And of course, the only thing that the free form can be used is to reorder the icons like this: http://www.thewebsiteisdown.com/ :) Mikus Grinbergs wrote: >> There is certainly not consensus regarding the merits of the >> "free-form" Home View, but it is being accepted upstream, AFAIK. >> > > Sorry, but I couldn't resist : > > The principal merit I see in the "free-form" Home View is that it > makes the screen look more like what is familiar (reassuring) to a > Windows user. > > Last time I tried a relatively recent Joyride, the non-list Home > View gave me a choice of whether I wanted to see "free-form" or > "ring". As long as upstream continues to give me that choice of > optionally selecting "ring view", I don't care what else is decided. > > mikus > > ___ > Devel mailing list > Devel@lists.laptop.org > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel > > > ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
