Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
I write for the HKEJ (a newspaper from Hong Kong) on tech matters. I went to Helsinki in May 2013 and reported on the Jolla launch at length. Filip mentioned taking to the media. Indeed, I read the mails - but I can't really see anything worthy of printing? I do feel his quest for sympathy. If there is no other venue, I think this mailing list has offered the right support as a community. Special thanks to Chris Walker, the first reply, who made an attempt to steer this to settlement. When we join development projects, we come not only for the technical but also for the people. Let's forgive and resume the fun and friendship. -- Cheers, FengWen 馮文 -- Forwarded message -- From: Chris Walker cdw_noki...@the-walker-household.co.uk Date: Tue, May 20, 2014 at 2:12 AM Subject: Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl To: devel@lists.sailfishos.org On Mon, 19 May 2014 11:41:16 +0200 Filip Kłębczyk fklebc...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, I'm writing on developers list, because I wanted to express my disappointment ... I'd like to express my disappointment for a couple of reasons. One is that this needed to appear here at all and second that there *appears* to have been no follow up from anybody at Jolla and in particular, Thomas Perl. This should have been jumped on by Jolla in an effort to resolve the squabling. By now we should have a response from them to say that they are looking into it and we could safely divert our gaze. I for one don't expect to see any followups except from either Filip, Thomas P or somebody else at Jolla to say that this has been resolved amicably. I certainly don't expect to see any tit-for-tap arguments continuing. This list is not the place for that. ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
Ahoy, From my point of view (as a community member, not a sailor) this case is closed. Filip had his opportunity to talk about the topic, community reserved him 20 minutes to do so, instead he didn't want to talk but keep on spamming mailing list, even after several community members already asked him to stop. (And at least one unsubscribed because of that.) I propose we have topic in next community meeting about need (if any) for general conversation mailing list for SailfishOS community related topics and keep this as developer mailing list, concentrating on technical details. It's not my decision to make that mailing list, I would like to hear community's opinion first. If there's even need, I don't know. What comes to publishing emails I have sent, I don't give my permission to do so. Those are private emails from community member to another. We need to trust each others and respect, as I am doing also without pointing out any details from personal mails Filip has sent to me. And I won't, as it would be brake of promise and it would be disrespectful towards Filip. Br, Iekku Pylkkä, community member From: devel-boun...@lists.sailfishos.org [devel-boun...@lists.sailfishos.org] on behalf of Filip Kłębczyk [fklebc...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 7:29 AM To: devel@lists.sailfishos.org Subject: Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl I would like to ask where is Marc usually shouting on stage about the values? He is also silent. Where was Jolla community manager through all this time? Once again isn't it strange that Thomas is silent through all the time? Have you seen his tweet yesterday? Meanwhile, back in the real world, people get stuff done. gPodder 4.2.0 Jungle released: http://gpodder.org/news Enjoy! *Meanwhile, back in the real world, people get stuff done.* Is all that perfectly fine as it seems from your tweet? Thomas you are doing harm to yourself. Yes, you definitely need a professional care, the one you recommended me a year ago. Yes, I have went through 5 months of psychotherapy from my own will. Yes, I'm not afraid to speak about that fact, because it's nothing wrong if someone looks for help and does something about it. I took the intensive mode with biweekly sessions, because I wanted to solve the part of the problem that was on my side and have a better life. What I have learned during psychotherapy in the end? That Carsten Munk was psycho-manipulating me by guilt tripping to make me feel guilty and be ashamed of myself. Why he was ready to manipulate someone that was a friend? Because he was afraid that Thomas may leave the company and company and his skunkworks RD was much more important to him, than my harm. He told me that in the mid-January in a moment of honesty when he was drunk, that he is seriously afraid of the fact that Thomas may leave Jolla if I would join the company. Carsten confirm how you have called me on that day? You said that I was your long-term investment. When on one of the next days I was outraged that you treat me like an object, like a pawn in a strategy game you decided to made an offer. Carsten offered me that he will help me to get a job at Jolla if I will be silent about discrimination problem and move away from (open source) stuff that is connected with Thomas. He gave me the time period to two weeks after MWC. Will you Carsten deny that? Yes that was my mistake that I've agreed to such a deal and got corrupted. I was feeling I've agreed to something highly unfair and it's something I'm ashamed of. Carsten also said many times that both me and Thomas are behaving like idiots. Why does he lacks courage to say so now? Has he said that ever to Thomas or was it only saying that to me? Carsten, will you be proud before your son and your wife of what you are doing now? You told something about baptisment of your son on IRC, so I assume you are a Christian (in contrast to me who is an atheist). I would like to ask does your God approve such behaviour? I know that you wanted to protect and help both Thomas and me, but you have chosen a completly wrong and harming path. That's not how problems should be solved, you don't have a degree and practical experience in psychology to tell people what to do. Well in fact if you haven't noticed psychotherapists don't tell people what to do, they learn about them and help them understand the problems they have. How long this mess will have to continue? Will Jolla and its employees find a courage to approach the whole problem seriously? Maybe they never will, but that would be disappointing to all the people that trusted them. You know what I feel? I feel very, very sad that Thomas and Carsten are destroying their own lives with this. In the background we see a company that has completely lost its common sense and forgot that any business should be run in an ethical way, especially if Jolla is claiming
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
2014-05-23 10:38 GMT+03:00 Iekku Pylkka iekku.pyl...@jolla.com: I propose we have topic in next community meeting about need (if any) for general conversation mailing list for SailfishOS community related topics and keep this as developer mailing list, concentrating on technical details. It's not my decision to make that mailing list, I would like to hear community's opinion first. If there's even need, I don't know. It's common practice to have a technical (-devel) and general lists separated, which is good for separating community talk from development talk not only for those who want one but not the other, but also for searching through topics in the archives. -- Kalle Vahlman, Movial Creative Technologies Inc. Porkkalankatu 20, FI-00180 Helsinki Tel +358 9 8567 6400 Fax +358 9 8567 6401 www.movial.com ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
Kalle, Please dont mix these two things: 1) what i say 2) how do i work with partners/competitors/others 1) I may say something bad about my competion .. 2) But allways i must cowork with competion on professional level. It is not possible mix personal feeling to work. I means cases when THP not respond to community coworker. Community is near same as bussines partner. PS: my company is O2 (formerly Telefonica). But i am not public knowly person asociated with this company. And who know what company employee is twitter identity KaaczM? Nobody, I am person with interest from nobody. Another case is write something on company social channels (f.ex.Jolla together or irc). In this case I must be employee. Jolla is small company with big publicity. Cca 20 persons is known as official Jolla sailors, include THP. And all of them need hold corporate etiquete. For top of company persons is not exist something as private opinion as default. Only with explicity declaration of this. Case with Metalab is more complex. THP has right to have conditions for own presence on this action. I am agree. But this situation create few new questions ... Again - excuse me for my ugly english.. Kaacz Fri May 23 2014 06:04:38 GMT+0200 (CEST), Kalle Vahlman napsal: 2014-05-23 3:27 GMT+03:00 k...@iol.cz: I am employe in big telco company. And i have few problematic partners. Bur always i must answer them quickly and correctly regardless of personal antipathy. This is about professionality. :) Would you then please disclose your company's name so we know which big telco thinks that: Jolla is unprofessional horde of tech geeks... :\ I'm sure that would be interesting in case there are discussions about eg. Jolla sales programs etc. Or maybe you said that as a private person? ;) -- Kalle Vahlman, Movial Creative Technologies Inc. Porkkalankatu 20, FI-00180 Helsinki Tel +358 9 8567 6400 Fax +358 9 8567 6401 www.movial.com ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org -- Sent from Jolla phone. Powered by Linux. No Windows, no viruses. :) ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
W dniu 21.05.2014 22:49, Tone Kastlunger pisze: Thank you for your reply, I'll take it as an honest one. So to me this sounds like it is worth making a mess about it, but only by telling part of the whole story. I do not belive this is completely fair to the audience (or the part of the audience who might be interested in this mailing list); without facts (which you cannot disclose due to cited private reasons) you are calling out for people to make a judgement based on a unilateral (i.e. yours) opinion. Tone so let me use an analogy to explain this to you. If before court defending side resigns from right to defend itself and won't speak a single word whose fault is it? Can you blame judge or the jury (in USA case) that they are making their decision based on what they've heard from prosecutor, who was the only one speaking. It's only far analogy, but I would say a good one a proper in this case. Have you noticed that despite this thread is already so long Thomas is completely silent. I don't believe he doesn't read this mailing list - with a high probability he does. This thread is neither pleasure for me nor for him, in normal conditions it would have never happened. I might be angry at Jolla not reacting or (unfair to me) explaining that it is entirely private case like Stefano claims, despite for Metalab (well known hackerspace in Europe, just like c-base in Berlin) or half people here it isn't. I'm not that much angry at Thomas, to be honest I feel sorry for him, yes that's what I feel, but it is his freedom of choice to act like he acts. I'm not a cold devil as some may think - I do have empathy. I know that publishing more details of this conflict, that are embarassing, won't serve the main goal - ending this conflict on professional (Jolla) level. I can give names which won't mean anything to you, but to Thomas, me and few other people they will - license notice, phd studies blow up, postcardgate, gpodder hack day or very embarrassing for me EP2013. Does Thomas wants to all of this and more to find place here. I doubt it, as it's not a pleasure for anyone. If you will insist and this madness that is going all the time won't stop, I will consider telling everyone the whole story of this conflict from my perspective and then you will be able to go to Thomas and confront it (if he will speak about it at all). Yes, you cite reasoning of exclusion from Meta Hack event, and yes, you cite you being ignored intentionally on IRC, and I can take your side for these not being fair things, but these are all subsequent events, which have a reasoning originating from different conditions (the private matters), so, like it or not, consequences of *yours an THP's own actions*, which btw happened way before THP joined Jolla, so most likely very remotely related to Jolla, I dare to say not related to Jolla at all, pay attention, but - I repeat - *related to yours and THP's own actions*. This is, and remains therefore, a private issue, and does - in my opinion - have nothing to do with the fact THP is member of Jolla. Now, this cleared, I do believe nothing stands in your way to crucifix THP on a personal level, if you have reasons for this. But Jolla has nix nada to do with this, IMO. In including the company, you are hurting the company. The company is hurting me and hurting itself, by tolerating that Thomas took his private conflict with him to Jolla setting. He didn't have to and I can say that in one single case he acted accordingly. I see Qt Developers Day in Berlin, when Atilla Csipa says sth like that Filip, look whose here - Thomas and then Thomas says hi I respond with hi and Thomas takes his hand and shakes mine. I thought that this crazy story is going to end - after few days everything went back to normal state, which we experience and is a problem until today. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 4:49 PM, Tone Kastlunger users.giulie...@gmail.comwrote: But Jolla has nix nada to do with this, IMO. In including the company, you are hurting the company. Let's put it this way: you are the CEO of a company. You hire an engineer. After a while, you discover that this engineer has personal issues with a customer and exclude him from events related to the company because of that. As a CEO, I wouldn't allow this to happen. No matter your personal reasons, you have to treat each customer equally. I would understand that you avoid contact with this customer unless you have to, but the company should not suffer from your personal concerns. But maybe I'm the only one thinking like that? Anyway, I think that this thread was kind of closed by Stefano's answer: Jolla has nothing to say on this case. If Thomas Perl wanted to talk, he would have done it long ago. I feel sorry for you Filip but I think you won't get any help here. Alex. ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
On 22/05/14 10:00, Goulagman wrote: On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 4:49 PM, Tone Kastlunger users.giulie...@gmail.com mailto:users.giulie...@gmail.com wrote: But Jolla has nix nada to do with this, IMO. In including the company, you are hurting the company. Let's put it this way: you are the CEO of a company. You hire an engineer. After a while, you discover that this engineer has personal issues with a customer and exclude him from events related to the company because of that. As a CEO, I wouldn't allow this to happen. No matter your personal reasons, you have to treat each customer equally. I would understand that you avoid contact with this customer unless you have to, but the company should not suffer from your personal concerns. But maybe I'm the only one thinking like that? Anyway, I think that this thread was kind of closed by Stefano's answer: Jolla has nothing to say on this case. If Thomas Perl wanted to talk, he would have done it long ago. I feel sorry for you Filip but I think you won't get any help here. Sorry Alexander, you are now putting words in my mouth... My answer was: This is a private issue that does not belong here nor to Jolla. I didn't say: Jolla has nothing to say on this case. We will have a community meeting today where the issue will be discussed (with Jolla and community) as it happens in every community. Stefano ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
Let this be the closing message of this topic. Stefano is handling the issue very professionally, kudos to him for that. I doubt that there's anything constructive left to say at this point. As entertaining as it is to follow the personal drama here, it's very distracting. On 22 May 2014, at 10:25, Stefano Mosconi stefano.mosc...@jolla.com wrote: On 22/05/14 10:00, Goulagman wrote: On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 4:49 PM, Tone Kastlunger users.giulie...@gmail.com mailto:users.giulie...@gmail.com wrote: But Jolla has nix nada to do with this, IMO. In including the company, you are hurting the company. Let's put it this way: you are the CEO of a company. You hire an engineer. After a while, you discover that this engineer has personal issues with a customer and exclude him from events related to the company because of that. As a CEO, I wouldn't allow this to happen. No matter your personal reasons, you have to treat each customer equally. I would understand that you avoid contact with this customer unless you have to, but the company should not suffer from your personal concerns. But maybe I'm the only one thinking like that? Anyway, I think that this thread was kind of closed by Stefano's answer: Jolla has nothing to say on this case. If Thomas Perl wanted to talk, he would have done it long ago. I feel sorry for you Filip but I think you won't get any help here. Sorry Alexander, you are now putting words in my mouth... My answer was: This is a private issue that does not belong here nor to Jolla. I didn't say: Jolla has nothing to say on this case. We will have a community meeting today where the issue will be discussed (with Jolla and community) as it happens in every community. Stefano ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
W dniu 22.05.2014 09:25, Stefano Mosconi pisze: We will have a community meeting today where the issue will be discussed (with Jolla and community) as it happens in every community. So as person who put that point to agenda (not Jolla) I would like to add some important material to this topic. It's my proposal of steps that in my opinion could led to solving the issue, that I've sent to Stefano yesterday (in a private message, but I'm its author so I have right to publish it): http://wklej.org/id/1369055/ I'm sending this material now, because I think that on community meeting there will be less time to read it carefully and discuss it. As person who added this point to agenda I would like for the discussion to focus around that proposal. Also I would like to point that making a meeting at 10:00 UTC (12:00 CET) is not the best idea, as most of the community people in Europe at that time are in their works and in most cases they cannot simply say to their bosses I need to stop my work for 1h 30 min, because there is an important community meeting on IRC. I know the time is good for Jolla employees as they can be on this meeting as part of their job, but others don't have that privilege. That's why in my opinion (but it's only my opinion) community meetings should be done mostly on Saturdays, so that most of the people aren't at work at that time, no matter if they live in Europe, Asia, Africa, AustraliaOceania or both Americas. That's also why most successful community events like FOSDEM are done on weekends in contrast to business oriented events that usually happen in the week, as most people participate in it as a part of their work. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
On 22. mai 2014 15:05, Jarko Vihriala wrote: This is not about sweeping dust but please take your epistola to some other channel. I would rather this thread continued right here. As an owner of a preordered Jolla phone, and as an app developer, I'm quite interested in the behaviour and ethics of the company I have been supporting with both my money and my programming efforts. If it turns out that this company is behaving as recklessly as it sounds like it is, then people like me should have a right to know that, nothing should be hidden from us. In the time since Jolla's launch, many have complained that Sailfish isn't as open-source, and Jolla not as open and community-oriented, as advertised. Some of that appear to be changing now, which is good. But when the company officially treats a contributor and supporter as an adversary, and attempts to evade and hide the conflict, then that's a step backwards again in the openness department. To some of us, openness is important for all kinds of reasons, not just for software, but in general. People like me want to work for a better tomorrow, a more open, tolerant, and inclusive world, with peace and prosperity, but that takes more than just good code. It also takes a good attitude. And Jolla's attitude doesn't seem right. So now I'm starting to doubt that helping Jolla will help achieve my goal of a better tomorrow. Sure, by his actions, Filip has probably harmed you and your image. But is that inherently wrong? Reporting a thief to the police or something will harm the thief, but it's still the right thing to do. For similar reasons, I think Filip has done the right thing here, regardless of the damage. It seems Jolla had several chances of preventing the problem from escalating this far, but evidently Jolla just wasn't a responsible enough company to do that. There's no reason the consequences for being irresponsible shouldn't be harmful. Perhaps Jolla will improve. But whether they do or not is information that's interesting to me, in order to decide if this community is for me or not. Thus, I'd like to see what happens next, I don't want it hidden from me. You could argue that this kind of thing should be on a mailing list without devel in its name, and that I could subscribe to that. However, if it comes to the point where Jolla decides it does have to create a whole new mailing list just for this one issue, that would imply that Jolla has been utterly unable to resolve the issue in any other way before that. (This would have been easy to resolve for most responsible companies, but Jolla just can't do it, apparently.) So, if such a mailing list appears, I will take that as more evidence of Jolla's incompetence when it comes to dealing with people in a respectful and constructive fashion. I'd rather see you go ahead and show that Jolla is still a respectable company. Express a willingness to do the right thing, even if you think all the proof is circumstantial or something. If you truly want your company to be unlike, then following the rule book isn't the answer - being responsible is the answer. ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
On Thursday 22 May 2014 21:24 Ove Kåven wrote: On 22. mai 2014 15:05, Jarko Vihriala wrote: This is not about sweeping dust but please take your epistola to some other channel. I would rather this thread continued right here. As an owner of a preordered Jolla phone, and as an app developer, I'm quite interested in the behaviour and ethics of the company I have been supporting with both my money and my programming efforts. Seconded You could argue that this kind of thing should be on a mailing list without devel in its name, and that I could subscribe to that. This is a developer list, and an independent developer is having an issue with Jolla Oy/a Jolla employee and have had insufficient response going through the official channels, so I believe this is the proper place. -- Med venlig hilsen / Best Regards Thomas Tanghus ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
I wonder if they will ever agree to publish all the mails Developer Care and Iekku sent to me on this case, so we could get chronology and all would see their replies, when and what they replied etc. Also Stefano doesn't want to agree to publish mails he sent to me in the last days. Real transparency and openness. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
On 22 May 2014, at 23:47, Filip Kłębczyk fklebc...@gmail.com wrote: I wonder if they will ever agree to publish all the mails Developer Care and Iekku sent to me on this case, so we could get chronology and all would see their replies, when and what they replied etc. Also Stefano doesn't want to agree to publish mails he sent to me in the last days. He sent the mails to you right? And not to the mailing list right? Not sending them to the mailing list where I believe many more than myself are getting very annoyed about this topic ( No Jolla does not pay for me, I pay for them ) You had your chance to address this case openly today. I know I was there. Instead you pasted a link, and went silent totally disrespecting everyone else’s time. It was like a consultant coming to a meeting room, turning on the projector and putting up a slideshow and sit there without a word. Several questions were asked, and no response. For me it showed total disrespect for the community. You were answered there, and you had your chance to comment, but you chose not to. Instead you chose to spam this mailing list again after many requests to handle this issue between you and the person in subject on private or to settle the issue there and then when you selected to put it on the list. Real transparency and openness. Personal matters are personal matters. As an adult you should understand that and respect that. I can understand you feel bad about the me or him case on the event earlier. And I can understand you feel bad about some missed deadlines in the communications. But you were answered. I was answered, because I was in the meeting. If something remained unclear you had the option to ask it there. You chose not to. I am _very_ close to unsubscribing from this mailing list because of this, sorry to say but I have a right to my opinion, nonsense. May sound harsh, but really. You had your 20 minutes reserved and you chose not to use it. So instead I remain on the list and set up a filter for my email to get rid of unnecessary and unrelated e-mails. And to those who want to keep this going, please read through the SailfishOS community meeting log and see for yourself. He chose not to discuss the topic. Just put up a slide and go quiet. If you want to discuss my opinions stated here, mail me directly. -Samuli ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
Stefano .. Professionally.. ? Lol. Are you kidding? You are only fight on nationally side. Sorry.. :) Kaacz Thu May 22 2014 09:52:27 GMT+0200 (CEST), Joona Hoikkala napsal: Let this be the closing message of this topic. Stefano is handling the issue very professionally, kudos to him for that. I doubt that there's anything constructive left to say at this point. As entertaining as it is to follow the personal drama here, it's very distracting. On 22 May 2014, at 10:25, Stefano Mosconi stefano.mosc...@jolla.com wrote: On 22/05/14 10:00, Goulagman wrote: On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 4:49 PM, Tone Kastlunger users.giulie...@gmail.com mailto:users.giulie...@gmail.com wrote: But Jolla has nix nada to do with this, IMO. In including the company, you are hurting the company. Let's put it this way: you are the CEO of a company. You hire an engineer. After a while, you discover that this engineer has personal issues with a customer and exclude him from events related to the company because of that. As a CEO, I wouldn't allow this to happen. No matter your personal reasons, you have to treat each customer equally. I would understand that you avoid contact with this customer unless you have to, but the company should not suffer from your personal concerns. But maybe I'm the only one thinking like that? Anyway, I think that this thread was kind of closed by Stefano's answer: Jolla has nothing to say on this case. If Thomas Perl wanted to talk, he would have done it long ago. I feel sorry for you Filip but I think you won't get any help here. Sorry Alexander, you are now putting words in my mouth... My answer was: This is a private issue that does not belong here nor to Jolla. I didn't say: Jolla has nothing to say on this case. We will have a community meeting today where the issue will be discussed (with Jolla and community) as it happens in every community. Stefano ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org -- Sent from Jolla phone. Powered by Linux. No Windows, no viruses. :) ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
Stefano, are you kidding? In small company as Jolla is, each employe has same statut as politician.. Each acion is public and is understand as politics/company action. You need learn company political things. Forgot technician things. Communication with public is more near as politics .. Kaacz Wed May 21 2014 14:13:08 GMT+0200 (CEST), Stefano Mosconi napsal: On 20/05/14 23:13, Goulagman wrote: I am not interested in personal problems either. [snip] *So I think that an official answer from Jolla is required on these particular questions: Apparently, a request has been made by one of your employee to exclude a developer from a public event. Could you clarify the situation? Do you confirm that this has happen? If so, what was the motivation? Has Filip received proper apologies if this problem was on your side? Can you ensure that it won't happen again?* Hi Goulagman, this is a private issue that does not belong here nor to Jolla. It's difficult to separate the personal problem sphere from the answer to your questions. As I stated before I don't think that this mailing list is the right place to solve private issues. Stefano ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org -- Sent from Jolla phone. Powered by Linux. No Windows, no viruses. :) ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
Some time deaf persons need to be kicked .. :) Next is Jolla chance/lost .. :) PS: IMHO Jolla is not in dictator position. Maybe will lost more. Jolla is silence to many problems!! (f.ex. fail with SIM holder, not really fixed!!). But we are know : main problem is low ammount of mandays in company .. Why Jola want hide it? Without success.. And bad harvest/cooperate with zero cost community fans .. Sad.. :\ Kaacz Thu May 22 2014 23:14:08 GMT+0200 (CEST), Samuli Järvinen napsal: On 22 May 2014, at 23:47, Filip Kłębczyk fklebc...@gmail.com wrote: I wonder if they will ever agree to publish all the mails Developer Care and Iekku sent to me on this case, so we could get chronology and all would see their replies, when and what they replied etc. Also Stefano doesn't want to agree to publish mails he sent to me in the last days. He sent the mails to you right? And not to the mailing list right? Not sending them to the mailing list where I believe many more than myself are getting very annoyed about this topic ( No Jolla does not pay for me, I pay for them ) You had your chance to address this case openly today. I know I was there. Instead you pasted a link, and went silent totally disrespecting everyone else’s time. It was like a consultant coming to a meeting room, turning on the projector and putting up a slideshow and sit there without a word. Several questions were asked, and no response. For me it showed total disrespect for the community. You were answered there, and you had your chance to comment, but you chose not to. Instead you chose to spam this mailing list again after many requests to handle this issue between you and the person in subject on private or to settle the issue there and then when you selected to put it on the list. Real transparency and openness. Personal matters are personal matters. As an adult you should understand that and respect that. I can understand you feel bad about the me or him case on the event earlier. And I can understand you feel bad about some missed deadlines in the communications. But you were answered. I was answered, because I was in the meeting. If something remained unclear you had the option to ask it there. You chose not to. I am _very_ close to unsubscribing from this mailing list because of this, sorry to say but I have a right to my opinion, nonsense. May sound harsh, but really. You had your 20 minutes reserved and you chose not to use it. So instead I remain on the list and set up a filter for my email to get rid of unnecessary and unrelated e-mails. And to those who want to keep this going, please read through the SailfishOS community meeting log and see for yourself. He chose not to discuss the topic. Just put up a slide and go quiet. If you want to discuss my opinions stated here, mail me directly. -Samuli ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.or -- Sent from Jolla phone. Powered by Linux. No Windows, no viruses. :) ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
Dear Kaacz, You have the right to your opinion. So does everone else. But when you start making assumptions, it would be good to check the facts and read things with open mind. We cannot force anyone to settle their private issues if they don't want or just right now do not have time to go through the effort. Has there been technical query addressed and delivered to our sailor to which he has not responded? If so, that is an issue that might touch the company as well. Anything else doesn't. No matter how high the volume of such call is. That is professional behavior. Being a nice guy is something else. What comes to Sailors being seen always as representing the company I strongly disagree. Well, if that would be so, then I would happily let our comms department to handle anything else than direct email to my company mailbox concerning a subject that deals with my work. Is this the path you prefer? We work very hard and usually long days. How many more ca.100 person company has delivered an OS, smartphone, application sdk, application store and even keeps updates rolling. I am sorry if we cannot respond to all signals we get, but I assure you it is not because we ignore someone on company level. We are just so busy. The recent meetings with community show that we respect our community and want to share plans and workload among them. Thanks, Jarko On Fri May 23 2014 00:38:49 GMT+0300 (EEST), k...@iol.cz wrote: IMHO .. THP, as sailor, unable to be silent. This is about professionality. Sorry, for now i got feeling: Jolla is unprofessional horde of tech geeks... :\ Thu May 22 2014 17:41:13 GMT+0200 (CEST), Goulagman napsal: On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 3:25 AM, Stefano Mosconi stefano.mosc...@jolla.comwrote: Sorry Alexander, you are now putting words in my mouth... My answer was: This is a private issue that does not belong here nor to Jolla. I didn't say: Jolla has nothing to say on this case. We will have a community meeting today where the issue will be discussed (with Jolla and community) as it happens in every community. Sorry for that. I was aware that the topic would be raised in the community meeting, I wanted to say Jolla has nothing more to say on this case for the moment. I'm French and my English is not perfect ;). From now on I mute this topic. Filip, you had a chance of making your point during the community meeting and you didn't take it. I'm not gonna read your wall of text. From my PoV, Jolla gave you a chance to state your case publicly and you missed it. I see no witch-hunt in the IRC logs, I only see people a bit puzzled by your silence and that cannot move forward because you're not answering their questions. It appears that Thomas Perl does not want to talk to you, that is why he remains silent. So I think the protocol at this point would be to talk to you and then get back to thp and do back and forth. If you don't want to talk when it's your turn, then it's also your right, but then don't complain that you don't have the answers you asked for. Alex. -- Sent from Jolla phone. Powered by Linux. No Windows, no viruses. :) ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org -- Sent from my Jolla ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
Jarko, Thank you for these honest and nothing hide words. This is what Jolla need more. I appreciate that. My english is poor - i am not able say all what i have in head and heart. :\ I am employe in big telco company. And i have few problematic partners. Bur always i must answer them quickly and correctly regardless of personal antipathy. This is about professionality. :) Kaacz Fri May 23 2014 00:24:15 GMT+0200 (CEST), Jarko Vihriala napsal: Dear Kaacz, You have the right to your opinion. So does everone else. But when you start making assumptions, it would be good to check the facts and read things with open mind. We cannot force anyone to settle their private issues if they don't want or just right now do not have time to go through the effort. Has there been technical query addressed and delivered to our sailor to which he has not responded? If so, that is an issue that might touch the company as well. Anything else doesn't. No matter how high the volume of such call is. That is professional behavior. Being a nice guy is something else. What comes to Sailors being seen always as representing the company I strongly disagree. Well, if that would be so, then I would happily let our comms department to handle anything else than direct email to my company mailbox concerning a subject that deals with my work. Is this the path you prefer? We work very hard and usually long days. How many more ca.100 person company has delivered an OS, smartphone, application sdk, application store and even keeps updates rolling. I am sorry if we cannot respond to all signals we get, but I assure you it is not because we ignore someone on company level. We are just so busy. The recent meetings with community show that we respect our community and want to share plans and workload among them. Thanks, Jarko On Fri May 23 2014 00:38:49 GMT+0300 (EEST), k...@iol.cz wrote: IMHO .. THP, as sailor, unable to be silent. This is about professionality. Sorry, for now i got feeling: Jolla is unprofessional horde of tech geeks... :\ Thu May 22 2014 17:41:13 GMT+0200 (CEST), Goulagman napsal: On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 3:25 AM, Stefano Mosconi stefano.mosc...@jolla.comwrote: Sorry Alexander, you are now putting words in my mouth... My answer was: This is a private issue that does not belong here nor to Jolla. I didn't say: Jolla has nothing to say on this case. We will have a community meeting today where the issue will be discussed (with Jolla and community) as it happens in every community. Sorry for that. I was aware that the topic would be raised in the community meeting, I wanted to say Jolla has nothing more to say on this case for the moment. I'm French and my English is not perfect ;). From now on I mute this topic. Filip, you had a chance of making your point during the community meeting and you didn't take it. I'm not gonna read your wall of text. From my PoV, Jolla gave you a chance to state your case publicly and you missed it. I see no witch-hunt in the IRC logs, I only see people a bit puzzled by your silence and that cannot move forward because you're not answering their questions. It appears that Thomas Perl does not want to talk to you, that is why he remains silent. So I think the protocol at this point would be to talk to you and then get back to thp and do back and forth. If you don't want to talk when it's your turn, then it's also your right, but then don't complain that you don't have the answers you asked for. Alex. -- Sent from Jolla phone. Powered by Linux. No Windows, no viruses. :) ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org -- Sent from my Jolla ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org -- Sent from Jolla phone. Powered by Linux. No Windows, no viruses. :) ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
2014-05-23 3:27 GMT+03:00 k...@iol.cz: I am employe in big telco company. And i have few problematic partners. Bur always i must answer them quickly and correctly regardless of personal antipathy. This is about professionality. :) Would you then please disclose your company's name so we know which big telco thinks that: Jolla is unprofessional horde of tech geeks... :\ I'm sure that would be interesting in case there are discussions about eg. Jolla sales programs etc. Or maybe you said that as a private person? ;) -- Kalle Vahlman, Movial Creative Technologies Inc. Porkkalankatu 20, FI-00180 Helsinki Tel +358 9 8567 6400 Fax +358 9 8567 6401 www.movial.com ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
I would like to ask where is Marc usually shouting on stage about the values? He is also silent. Where was Jolla community manager through all this time? Once again isn't it strange that Thomas is silent through all the time? Have you seen his tweet yesterday? Meanwhile, back in the real world, people get stuff done. gPodder 4.2.0 Jungle released: http://gpodder.org/news Enjoy! *Meanwhile, back in the real world, people get stuff done.* Is all that perfectly fine as it seems from your tweet? Thomas you are doing harm to yourself. Yes, you definitely need a professional care, the one you recommended me a year ago. Yes, I have went through 5 months of psychotherapy from my own will. Yes, I'm not afraid to speak about that fact, because it's nothing wrong if someone looks for help and does something about it. I took the intensive mode with biweekly sessions, because I wanted to solve the part of the problem that was on my side and have a better life. What I have learned during psychotherapy in the end? That Carsten Munk was psycho-manipulating me by guilt tripping to make me feel guilty and be ashamed of myself. Why he was ready to manipulate someone that was a friend? Because he was afraid that Thomas may leave the company and company and his skunkworks RD was much more important to him, than my harm. He told me that in the mid-January in a moment of honesty when he was drunk, that he is seriously afraid of the fact that Thomas may leave Jolla if I would join the company. Carsten confirm how you have called me on that day? You said that I was your long-term investment. When on one of the next days I was outraged that you treat me like an object, like a pawn in a strategy game you decided to made an offer. Carsten offered me that he will help me to get a job at Jolla if I will be silent about discrimination problem and move away from (open source) stuff that is connected with Thomas. He gave me the time period to two weeks after MWC. Will you Carsten deny that? Yes that was my mistake that I've agreed to such a deal and got corrupted. I was feeling I've agreed to something highly unfair and it's something I'm ashamed of. Carsten also said many times that both me and Thomas are behaving like idiots. Why does he lacks courage to say so now? Has he said that ever to Thomas or was it only saying that to me? Carsten, will you be proud before your son and your wife of what you are doing now? You told something about baptisment of your son on IRC, so I assume you are a Christian (in contrast to me who is an atheist). I would like to ask does your God approve such behaviour? I know that you wanted to protect and help both Thomas and me, but you have chosen a completly wrong and harming path. That's not how problems should be solved, you don't have a degree and practical experience in psychology to tell people what to do. Well in fact if you haven't noticed psychotherapists don't tell people what to do, they learn about them and help them understand the problems they have. How long this mess will have to continue? Will Jolla and its employees find a courage to approach the whole problem seriously? Maybe they never will, but that would be disappointing to all the people that trusted them. You know what I feel? I feel very, very sad that Thomas and Carsten are destroying their own lives with this. In the background we see a company that has completely lost its common sense and forgot that any business should be run in an ethical way, especially if Jolla is claiming to be respectful and unlike, like they did. It makes me sad, completely sad how so much intelligent and talented people in technical areas are completely blind to a serious problem that is happening and at all cost are trying to hide it under the carpet. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
Merlin1991 verschob die Seite Hack-A-Jolla nach Hack-A-Handy: event umbenannt um den Sailfish Overlords nicht aufzufallen This basically just points out the fact they renamed the event from Hack-A-Jolla to hack-a-handy, in order not to get unnecessary attention from the Sailfish Overlords On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 12:50 AM, Yuvraaj Kelkar yuvr...@gmail.com wrote: Filip, what do you intend to achieve by posting your tirade in this mailing list? I saw your message, looked at the IRC logs you posted, looked at the responses that Stskeeps and thp gave you and I didn't see anything in there that would indicate that they're out to break you or ignore you out of malice. They're within their rights to privacy and not responding to you is perfectly acceptable. So far the only one defaming you is yourself. I wanted to ignore this thread because it is pointless to the nature and goal of this mailing list and I 1. don't believe you are right 2. might not have enough information I felt that I must end my non-involvement when you tried to flame someone else. My two cents: Take it offline or to t.m.o. We dont want you to waste our time here. Please. Thank you. On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 1:52 PM, Filip Kłębczyk fklebc...@gmail.com wrote: W dniu 20.05.2014 22:13, Goulagman pisze: I'm afraid that without any further proofs of people supporting one side or another, we can't go further on this complaint. But that's only my opinion. As a supplement. Wiki site of the event: https://metalab.at/wiki/Hack-A-Handy Also check it's history: https://metalab.at/wiki/index.php?title=Hack-A-Handyaction=history I must admit I don't know German and I don't know what the part means and Google Translate seems not to translate it in a way I would understand: Merlin1991 verschob die Seite Hack-A-Jolla nach Hack-A-Handy: event umbenannt um den Sailfish Overlords nicht aufzufallen And most importantly IRC log (see 19:47, 20:01): http://wklej.org/hash/8ede3d7b136/ Christian statement: 16:55 merlin1991 the meetup in essence is open, and happens in an open hackerspace, so as long as you're welcome there I can't tell you not to come and also don't want to, but thp stated he is not coming when / if you're there 16:55 merlin1991 so now I've got a conflict of interests here sence he is the one who provides most to the meetings ... Metalab statement: On behalf of the Anlaufstelle I would once again like to state that you were absolutely right to point this issue out to us. I have talked to both merlin and thp today and made it absolutely clear that exclusion of any sorts is not welcome at the Metalab. Whatever grudges thp holds against you, he will have to keep them to his private sphere of action and away from things that officially happen at the Metalab. Now whatever way thp, or anyone else involved, will handle this in the future, I cannot say, but I hope it will be a wise choice and an open, inclusive one. Let me say again, that you are at all times welcome at the Metalab* and that we're very sorry this situation occured. If anything goes wrong again in this regard or any other, feel free to contact us again at any time! Part of Stefano Mosconi response (Jolla board, said that he was representing Jolla Developer Care) on that matter: if Thomas does not want to invite you to a party he organizes that is completely his choice and does not affect Jolla public image My comment: I've explained to Stefano, that Thomas wasn't organizer of the event. More over Thomas Perl was writing about this event on Together (so according to guidelines as Jolla employee: https://together.jolla.com/question/39671/anybody-has-jolla-in-vienna/#post-id-39932 Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
On 20/05/14 21:20, Filip Kłębczyk wrote: I've read that answer and I think people are interested in what you wrote. According to the answers I have seen so far most people don't share the same opinion. Briefly speaking I can say that Stefano doesn't see any problem at all. You are speaking on my behalf now Filip. I respect you and I don't tell to the world what you write me privately. Likewise If I answer privately I would expect you to respect me and keep my answers private. Thanks -- Stefano Mosconi CTO | Jolla Join the Movement at http://shop.jolla.com ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
W dniu 21.05.2014 13:23, Stefano Mosconi pisze: On 20/05/14 21:20, Filip Kłębczyk wrote: I've read that answer and I think people are interested in what you wrote. According to the answers I have seen so far most people don't share the same opinion. Well it all depends where you look and who you ask. Community is not limited to this mailing list only. Also there are other people outside this community who are angry on how your company reacts. Anyway feel free to have any opinion you want. Briefly speaking I can say that Stefano doesn't see any problem at all. You are speaking on my behalf now Filip. I respect you and I don't tell to the world what you write me privately. Feel free to publish my e-mails I've sent to you and Jolla Developer Care regarding this case. I give you official permission now here before everybody. I also count that you will have courage to publish what you have written. Likewise If I answer privately I would expect you to respect me and keep my answers private. So I expect official, public answer from Jolla in this case, if your messages and what you write are confidential. I've already contacted newspapers and TV in Finland pointing them to this thread, because what I'm witnessing from this company side is just shocking. For me Jolla is self-destroying its image of an unlike company. Regards, Filip PS. From Jolla website: We are truly open. ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
Wed May 21 2014 13:23:12 GMT+0200 (CEST), Stefano Mosconi napsal: On 20/05/14 21:20, Filip Kłębczyk wrote: I've read that answer and I think people are interested in what you wrote. According to the answers I have seen so far most people don't share the same opinion. But most other people have same feeling as Filip.. Briefly speaking I can say that Stefano doesn't see any problem at all. You are speaking on my behalf now Filip. I respect you and I don't tell to the world what you write me privately. Likewise If I answer privately I would expect you to respect me and keep my answers private. Will be good not hide all (under carpet). Will be good to know your official statement for this known problems. Silence is not good. Jolla have too many PR, but community co-work and info is not good.. Silence, silence, silence, . :( PS: my feeling is: abandone this ship without known path and get something else builded on SWIPE UI f.ex BBZ10 .. :\ PPS: i have not-cheap preordered device, not payfree devel device. I have rights to say my critical opinion .. When I buy phone, I fulfilled half of its commitment. Now you will fulfill your half. Promises do not work forever .. :) Please do something right and do it now. With time you will lost yours fans.. Howgh, that is all on my heart .. Thanks Kaazc Thanks -- Stefano Mosconi CTO | Jolla Join the Movement at http://shop.jolla.com ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.or -- Sent from Jolla phone. Powered by Linux. No Windows, no viruses. :) ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
On 20/05/14 23:13, Goulagman wrote: I am not interested in personal problems either. [snip] *So I think that an official answer from Jolla is required on these particular questions: Apparently, a request has been made by one of your employee to exclude a developer from a public event. Could you clarify the situation? Do you confirm that this has happen? If so, what was the motivation? Has Filip received proper apologies if this problem was on your side? Can you ensure that it won't happen again?* Hi Goulagman, this is a private issue that does not belong here nor to Jolla. It's difficult to separate the personal problem sphere from the answer to your questions. As I stated before I don't think that this mailing list is the right place to solve private issues. Stefano ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
I as an indie developer want to know if something is going on that will affect the future of the company. Not only because I have invested money, but more importantly because I am investing time. Also I do want to know what to expect in the future in case I come to a similar situation. ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
This case is one topic on the upcoming SailfishOS meeting. On Wed May 21 2014 15:20:30 GMT+0300 (EEST), Iosif Hamlatzis wrote: I as an indie developer want to know if something is going on that will affect the future of the company. Not only because I have invested money, but more importantly because I am investing time. Also I do want to know what to expect in the future in case I come to a similar situation. -- Sent from my Jolla ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
W dniu 21.05.2014 17:06, Jarko Vihriala pisze: This case is one topic on the upcoming SailfishOS meeting. Yes I've added it even though I don't know if it's the best idea. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
On Tue, 20 May 2014 20:43:24 +0200 Filip Kłębczyk fklebc...@gmail.com wrote: W dniu 20.05.2014 20:30, Tone Kastlunger pisze: IMHO, and with all respect, personally I am not interested in cutthorat and dagger, but rather interested in development issues. Feel free to not read this thread. It's your choice what you read or not. As the first person to respond to this thread, I said I was disappointed. I am even more disappointed now. I'm afraid you lost me when you shot yourself in the foot by posting private content on here. That was a private conversation and should have remained so. It is not good enough that *you* feel it should be published. Plainly a number of people, myself included do not feel that this is the right place for it. It is also not acceptable for you to say that we can read it or not. Please let this be the last posting on the subject, but having said that, I hope things work out for you. If I were closer, I'd grab you and Thomas P and bang your heads together until you resolved it ;-) ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
I also hate to see there are conflicts in the field where we all are fighting in the same side, for a greater common good (open source, underdog OS, you name it). I wish all the best for you guys and I hope you can solve things out and we can continue work our way together for the common benefit. I hope it's not impossible to anyone make some space for another who wants to help in this common target, even though there might be some minor disagreements. Let's keep in mind that we are stronger when we all agree to do stuff as one :) - Saija Lähetetty iPadista Chris Walker cdw_noki...@the-walker-household.co.uk kirjoitti 21.5.2014 kello 19.36: On Tue, 20 May 2014 20:43:24 +0200 Filip Kłębczyk fklebc...@gmail.com wrote: W dniu 20.05.2014 20:30, Tone Kastlunger pisze: IMHO, and with all respect, personally I am not interested in cutthorat and dagger, but rather interested in development issues. Feel free to not read this thread. It's your choice what you read or not. As the first person to respond to this thread, I said I was disappointed. I am even more disappointed now. I'm afraid you lost me when you shot yourself in the foot by posting private content on here. That was a private conversation and should have remained so. It is not good enough that *you* feel it should be published. Plainly a number of people, myself included do not feel that this is the right place for it. It is also not acceptable for you to say that we can read it or not. Please let this be the last posting on the subject, but having said that, I hope things work out for you. If I were closer, I'd grab you and Thomas P and bang your heads together until you resolved it ;-) ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
W dniu 21.05.2014 18:35, Chris Walker pisze: As the first person to respond to this thread, I said I was disappointed. I am even more disappointed now. I'm afraid you lost me when you shot yourself in the foot by posting private content on here. That was a private conversation and should have remained so. It is not good enough that *you* feel it should be published. Plainly a number of people, myself included do not feel that this is the right place for it. Yes, I agree that I should have asked Stefano, before I've pasted part of his mail if he doesn't have anything against that. I'm sorry that I haven't done that and falsely assumed, that when he wrote at beginning that I can treat it as official Jolla Developer Care response, then I'm allowed to post anything from it here. It was my mistake. It is also not acceptable for you to say that we can read it or not. Sorry, but this topic didn't have serious approach in Jolla and I believe this was the right place for that - the problem is about someone from the (developer) community willing to contribute/help and someone from company blocking that or making that harder. It is about participation/_development_ in the open parts, so I don't see any more proper place for that, though I respect you have a different view of it. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
W dniu 21.05.2014 18:46, Saija Saarenpää pisze: I also hate to see there are conflicts in the field where we all are fighting in the same side, for a greater common good (open source, underdog OS, you name it). I wish all the best for you guys and I hope you can solve things out and we can continue work our way together for the common benefit. I hope it's not impossible to anyone make some space for another who wants to help in this common target, even though there might be some minor disagreements. Let's keep in mind that we are stronger when we all agree to do stuff as one :) Saija, I believe that if the company seriously and fairly will deal with the problem it can only come out stronger from it. I still have some hope for that, despite many disappointments in the recent days. You probably know the saying - if there is a will there is a way. There must be an honest will on both sides to treat the problem completely seriously and look for solution. I haven't closed myself to talk with them not even for a moment, but the ball is on Jolla side. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
Hello Stefano, Thanks for your answer. this is a private issue that does not belong here nor to Jolla. It's difficult to separate the personal problem sphere from the answer to your questions. I have tried to sort out the public matter out of all these personal problems. I'm gonna be selfish this time. I like Python, I think that it is a wonderful language and may code python applications for my Jolla once I'll get more free time. Apparently, Thomas Perl is one of the guy in Jolla to work with Python. If, at some point, I get in personal trouble with this guy, I hope he won't exclude me from any public event because of that, and especially using Jolla as a lever. Believe me, I already experienced a really tricky situation where I had to work with somebody I had huge personal problems with. And it never affected professional matters because we put a clear separation between the two. In this case, some personal matters seems to have lead to a public action: asking for the exclusion of somebody from a public event. From your answer, I understand that such a request was made and motivated by personal reasons. Again, I don't point any fingers, but this fact will just add up to the list of all doubts I already have regarding Jolla and what's happening in the community around. Best, Alexandre. ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
So Thomas Perl and I were in a conflict since beginning of 2013, before he was a Jolla employee. From his side I've received insults (was compared to psycho, called asshole etc.) and even threats (he was threatening me to discredit me in Python community, also he was threatening publish my private mails, where I've begged him to stop this conflict). Thomas used all sorts of actions against me, including kicking me from gPodder project to which I've previously contributed, without any factual technical/quality reasons. I've made many attempts to end this conflict at that time, but without any results. I recall you mention there was something else here which acted as an ignition for this kribiskrabis, but all you have provided after that is information related to subsequent events. What keeps you from mentioning the reasons to the conflict between you and THP? On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 8:51 PM, Goulagman goulag...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Stefano, Thanks for your answer. this is a private issue that does not belong here nor to Jolla. It's difficult to separate the personal problem sphere from the answer to your questions. I have tried to sort out the public matter out of all these personal problems. I'm gonna be selfish this time. I like Python, I think that it is a wonderful language and may code python applications for my Jolla once I'll get more free time. Apparently, Thomas Perl is one of the guy in Jolla to work with Python. If, at some point, I get in personal trouble with this guy, I hope he won't exclude me from any public event because of that, and especially using Jolla as a lever. Believe me, I already experienced a really tricky situation where I had to work with somebody I had huge personal problems with. And it never affected professional matters because we put a clear separation between the two. In this case, some personal matters seems to have lead to a public action: asking for the exclusion of somebody from a public event. From your answer, I understand that such a request was made and motivated by personal reasons. Again, I don't point any fingers, but this fact will just add up to the list of all doubts I already have regarding Jolla and what's happening in the community around. Best, Alexandre. ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
W dniu 21.05.2014 21:19, Tone Kastlunger pisze: What keeps you from mentioning the reasons to the conflict between you and THP? I think it would be embarrassing for both me and Thomas going into all the details and I don't know if it will help in any way to solve the problem pointed here - so discrimination on professional (non-personal) level. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
Thank you for your reply, I'll take it as an honest one. So to me this sounds like it is worth making a mess about it, but only by telling part of the whole story. I do not belive this is completely fair to the audience (or the part of the audience who might be interested in this mailing list); without facts (which you cannot disclose due to cited private reasons) you are calling out for people to make a judgement based on a unilateral (i.e. yours) opinion. Yes, you cite reasoning of exclusion from Meta Hack event, and yes, you cite you being ignored intentionally on IRC, and I can take your side for these not being fair things, but these are all subsequent events, which have a reasoning originating from different conditions (the private matters), so, like it or not, consequences of *yours an THP's own actions*, which btw happened way before THP joined Jolla, so most likely very remotely related to Jolla, I dare to say not related to Jolla at all, pay attention, but - I repeat - *related to yours and THP's own actions*. This is, and remains therefore, a private issue, and does - in my opinion - have nothing to do with the fact THP is member of Jolla. Now, this cleared, I do believe nothing stands in your way to crucifix THP on a personal level, if you have reasons for this. But Jolla has nix nada to do with this, IMO. In including the company, you are hurting the company. Best good luck, tk On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 10:50 PM, Filip Kłębczyk fklebc...@gmail.comwrote: W dniu 21.05.2014 21:19, Tone Kastlunger pisze: What keeps you from mentioning the reasons to the conflict between you and THP? I think it would be embarrassing for both me and Thomas going into all the details and I don't know if it will help in any way to solve the problem pointed here - so discrimination on professional (non-personal) level. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscribe@lists. sailfishos.org ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
W dniu 19.05.2014 20:12, Chris Walker pisze: One is that this needed to appear here at all and second that there *appears* to have been no follow up from anybody at Jolla and in particular, Thomas Perl. That doesn't surprise me at all that Jolla hasn't responded yet. It's a known pattern for Jolla, not only in this case. When there is a serious problem or they fail at something they put all possible effort to hide it instead of simply admitting that they failed with something and focusing more on possible solutions. Then, when unpleasant smell is all around and already too intensive to simply cover it with perfume - in other words when community boils or their clients heavily complain they slowly start to react. You can give countless examples: * Preorders - probably everyone remembers that people that preordered were supposed to get phones before it hit the operator stores. Do you remember when apology came? When people that preordered where loudly complaining everywhere that it's unfair that a random person from a street in Helsinki can get the phone earlier before a person from Spain that preordered in May. * Simcard holder problem - they weren't treating it entirely seriously until I've shown it to Marko Saukko (one of their more close to HW engineers) and demonstrated that it is indeed a HW problem on last FOSDEM. Then it finally resulted in actions, like agreeing to fixing that as a part of a guarantee. * Neglecting collaboration with community in the open source parts - that is improving recently after a lot of buzz in the community, but how much time and complains had to pass before they admitted it is a problem and started to do anything about it. For new candidates you can add: * Silica Components and their open source status (who knows when they will be fully open sourced liked promised more than 1.25 year ago, not even a word about if that should be counted in weeks, months, years, decades or centuries...) In my opinion their marketing/PR is just broken. You can stick posters to operator store, give balloons, do fancy photos and shout big words on stage, but I guess it's not what most of us here really expect from them in the first place. It's fair to say that they are weak, fighting for their place on the market and trying to figure out what their business model can be based on. But that doesn't have to mean giving up being fair to their clients, community and partners. I believe someone decisive there behind management or marketing is a perfectionist and doesn't give himself right to make mistakes. On admitting mistakes and apologizing for them you can build community/clients trust and respect. Sadly they seem to miss that fact through most of the time. The story of American company Enron should be a warning to Jolla employees and Jolla management. To those that do not know the story - magazine Fortune has listed Enron as the most innovative U.S. company for 6 years. One of the reasons that company collapsed was compulsive hiding of problems and doing everything to keep up their image of being perfect. Old (smartphone) Nokia went similar path, missing and ineffective to changes, slowly reacting to revolution that came with iPhone and Android phones. Hope that management in Jolla is wise enough to not follow the same path, otherwise ship might sink. Who will be responsible for that? Neither their clients nor their community. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
W dniu 20.05.2014 18:17, Stefano Mosconi pisze: On 19/05/2014 12:41, Filip Kłębczyk wrote: Hello, Hi Filip, I'm writing on developers list, because I wanted to express my disappointment with a serious problem that Jolla has and tries to hide under the carpet. [snip] I have answered you privately as I don't think this is the correct place to address the issue. I've read that answer and I think people are interested in what you wrote. Briefly speaking I can say that Stefano doesn't see any problem at all. Moreover he accuses me of harming Jolla public image. I think that Jolla is harming its image itself - if problems and harm wouldn't be ignored there would be no mail on this list. When everything fails people usually go public with what was ignored. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
W dniu 20.05.2014 20:30, Tone Kastlunger pisze: IMHO, and with all respect, personally I am not interested in cutthorat and dagger, but rather interested in development issues. Feel free to not read this thread. It's your choice what you read or not. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
Sorry but you are out of line now. Your gave your point in your first post but keep repeating in this mailinglist is pointless! The mailinglist is for development. I am personally not intrested reading flamewar in here! Now if you want to continue do it elsewhere like TMO or similar / mike7b4 On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 20:43:24 Filip Kłębczyk wrote: W dniu 20.05.2014 20:30, Tone Kastlunger pisze: IMHO, and with all respect, personally I am not interested in cutthorat and dagger, but rather interested in development issues. Feel free to not read this thread. It's your choice what you read or not. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org -- I am a computer Open Source geek: Professional experience and intrests in Qt/QML, C++, C, Python, GIT, Linux on embedded. Phone: +46738784840 ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
W dniu 20.05.2014 20:52, Mikael Hermansson pisze: Sorry but you are out of line now. Your gave your point in your first post but keep repeating in this mailinglist is pointless! The mailinglist is for development. I am personally not intrested reading flamewar in here! Now if you want to continue do it elsewhere like TMO or similar / mike7b4 You are free to not read the thread or filter it out in your mail app. On sailfishos.org there is a section Community in the bottom-left corner and there is a link to this mailing list. I see it as most appropriate place - IRC is not suitable for longer messages and wiki isn't rather a correct place for expressing opinions. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
Hi Filip, *TL;DR: read only the bold paragraph.* I am not interested in personal problems either. However, from what I read, I understand that you only posted here as a last resort. I think that other people could take that into account before making any critics. Your mail is very dense, maybe that is why it is hard for people to give an accurate answer. So, if I take apart the private concerns, and what happened before Jolla, that leaves me with two points: IRC and Metalab. Regarding IRC, I can see on the log that your questions remained unanswered until somebody higlights thp. But, given the length of the logs, I don't know if it's accidental or not. So I will left this point apart too. That leaves me with the *Hack-a-Jolla* event. You claim that Thomas Perl has asked the organizer to exclude you from the event. I think that this can be checked easily by mailing Christian Ratzenhofer. For me, this is a very serious concern, especially because he acts as a representative of the Jolla company. I think that this affects each and every person in the mailing list as anybody could be kicked out of any event because of personal reasons. *So I think that an official answer from Jolla is required on these particular questions: Apparently, a request has been made by one of your employee to exclude a developer from a public event. Could you clarify the situation? Do you confirm that this has happen? If so, what was the motivation? Has Filip received proper apologies if this problem was on your side? Can you ensure that it won't happen again?* I'm not pointing fingers at Jolla, I just tried to raise up the questions that are pertinent in this list and could be of interest for other people. I'm afraid that without any further proofs of people supporting one side or another, we can't go further on this complaint. But that's only my opinion. Best, Alex. On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 3:03 PM, Filip Kłębczyk fklebc...@gmail.com wrote: W dniu 20.05.2014 20:52, Mikael Hermansson pisze: Sorry but you are out of line now. Your gave your point in your first post but keep repeating in this mailinglist is pointless! The mailinglist is for development. I am personally not intrested reading flamewar in here! Now if you want to continue do it elsewhere like TMO or similar / mike7b4 You are free to not read the thread or filter it out in your mail app. On sailfishos.org there is a section Community in the bottom-left corner and there is a link to this mailing list. I see it as most appropriate place - IRC is not suitable for longer messages and wiki isn't rather a correct place for expressing opinions. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscribe@lists. sailfishos.org ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
[SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
Hello, I'm writing on developers list, because I wanted to express my disappointment with a serious problem that Jolla has and tries to hide under the carpet. Thanks to that from a strong supporter back when Jolla appeared on scene (almost 2 years ago) I became heavily disappointed with this company and it impacted on my whole community activity and caused slowly pulling away. It's important issue, because this could have happened to anyone from developers or other Jolla contributors community. So Thomas Perl and I were in a conflict since beginning of 2013, before he was a Jolla employee. From his side I've received insults (was compared to psycho, called asshole etc.) and even threats (he was threatening me to discredit me in Python community, also he was threatening publish my private mails, where I've begged him to stop this conflict). Thomas used all sorts of actions against me, including kicking me from gPodder project to which I've previously contributed, without any factual technical/quality reasons. I've made many attempts to end this conflict at that time, but without any results. At early July 2013 Thomas Perl joined Jolla. I was scared that he might bring that conflict into the company and Jolla was very important to me. Unfortunately he did that, somewhere on beginning of September 3rd 2013 I've sent an e-mail with questions regarding code he was author of in Nemo mobile project as a Jolla employee (his company mail was listed as a Jolla contact mail for the source file I was interested in). My mail bounced, Thomas has blocked his company e-mail to my e-mail, even though I never brought up any non-technical issues to his company e-mail (only non-technical mail that went there on beginning of July when I wrote there: I've read that you work in Jolla. Congratulations and good luck! Regards, Filip So in September I felt that Thomas Perl brought the conflict into the company, because from that time I wasn't allowed to ask questions regarding Jolla open source or public activity that he was involved it. It's similar situation like you would enter the shop and shop clerk doesn't want to sell you items in store, because of his personal prejudice/reasons (like he don't likes you, your color of skin or gender). I've informed about that problem Carsten Munk, but he ignored it and informed me that he is not a person to handle complains on his co-workers. Then later in December, there was information on Harbour that people can help with Python support on Sailfish: Can I submit Python applications? Currently not, there are some enablers missing for that. But we are working on it, to make that happen. You can support us with that effort, please ask in Nemo project how to help with Python. I wanted to help (since 2007 I'm very active in Polish Python community, even organized 6 editions of the biggest Python event in Poland - 4 days, 330 attendees, also in the past I taught students Python at university etc.). I went there like Harbour stated to nemomobile IRC channel. In result my questions weren't answered unless someone else repeated them. Many people in private conversations (including some connected with Jolla) commented Thomas Perl behavior as unprofessional. After advice of a friend I've reported that issue to Jolla Care: Can I submit Python applications? Currently not, there are some enablers missing for that. But we are working on it, to make that happen. You can support us with that effort, please ask in Nemo project how to help with Python. So I went and asked in #nemomobile as it can be seen in the below log (till 13:57): http://www.merproject.org/logs/%23nemomobile/%23nemomobile.2013-12-03.log.html#t2013-12-03T10:45:06 The log shows that for some reason my questions were ignored, unless someone else repeated the same question after me. I am sad that such things happen from Jolla’s side. In my opinion someone’s personal reasons to dislike someone, shouldn’t justify ignoring someone on professional/company level. I look forward to solving this amicably. Best regards, Filip The mail to Jolla Developer Care didn't receive any response for _months_! As a result of sending above mail to developer care few days later Carsten Munk (Thomas superior/chief in Jolla) started to ignore me. I believe the reason is that he was covering Thomas Perl on this embarrassing issue and tried to put pressure on me to withdraw. Carsten even tried to discredit me on IRC channel which is clearly seen in the logs: http://merproject.org/logs/%23nemomobile/%23nemomobile.2013-12-14.log.html#t2013-12-14T11:26:05 Why Carsten brought this on #nemomobile channel? He wanted to break me and he succeded in that. As a result on the same day I wrote an e-mail to Mer mailing list where I apologized everyone and took the whole blame on myself. Deep inside I felt it was highly unfair and I felt forced to it, especially that I was in an overall bad
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
On Mon, 19 May 2014 11:41:16 +0200 Filip Kłębczyk fklebc...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, I'm writing on developers list, because I wanted to express my disappointment ... I'd like to express my disappointment for a couple of reasons. One is that this needed to appear here at all and second that there *appears* to have been no follow up from anybody at Jolla and in particular, Thomas Perl. This should have been jumped on by Jolla in an effort to resolve the squabling. By now we should have a response from them to say that they are looking into it and we could safely divert our gaze. I for one don't expect to see any followups except from either Filip, Thomas P or somebody else at Jolla to say that this has been resolved amicably. I certainly don't expect to see any tit-for-tap arguments continuing. This list is not the place for that. ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
