Re: Re: Emulation of Alt+Numpad+Digits behavior
Dixitur illum [EMAIL PROTECTED] scribere... There is a much neater alternative standardized in ISO/IEC 14755 - Input methods to enter characters from the repertoire of ISO/IEC 10646 with a keyboard or other input devices http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/volatile/ISO-14755.pdf I second that. I've been searching for the method described in 5.1 for ages (as far as I have heard, Linux implements AltGr + the keys on the numpad, but I don't use it so I don't know exactly), and having the on-screen keyboard or selection (5.3) would be a nice feature as well. //Thorsten -- Currently blocking eMail from the following domains: bigpond.com, biz, gmx.de, gmx.net, hotmail.com, info, jumpy.it, libero.it, name, netscape.net, postino.it, simplesnet.pt, spymac.com, tatanova.com, tiscali.co.uk, tiscali.cz, tiscali.de, tiscali.it, voila.fr, yahoo.co.uk, yahoo.com. ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Emulation of Alt+Numpad+Digits behavior
Robert Currey wrote: I do think that this goal is achievable, because the Alt-Numpad functionality is so limited: all it does is to generate the same symbols without regard to any codepage, keyboard mapping etc. And that's what makes it useful im some cases (see below). And exactly because the functionality is not supposed to be flexible at all, I think that it doesn't necessarily conflict with the X paradigm. To play nice, this should only need xkb file interpretation changes (changing the way the code works may get messy). I'm not that hip on how XKB maintains state, but for Alt-gr type combos it is at least close. Unfortunately it is not possible to implement this functionality solely based on xkb configuration. It would definitely need some modification of xkb and I'm hesitating to go the xkb route because of the expected messieness and the fact that the functionality does not fit very well with the concept of xkb. Xkb deals with a limited set of states (levels, groups) whereas Alt-Numpad needs a large number of states (all possible three-digit combinations). ummm ... the to be transparent is true for windows, but obviously not for unix or mac or ... This really smells like an input method ...so your app that needs to play with readers for Smartcards or keyboard-wedge style barcode readers would need to support the input method. The problem here is that it will not be possible to change those applications: one application are sessions running in a terminal-emulation for IBM mainframes which just expect the data to be scanned or read from the smartcard to be typed into existing input fields. Joerg Henne ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [I18n] Re: Emulation of Alt+Numpad+Digits behavior
Yesterday at 19:35, Jrg Henne wrote: Markus Kuhn wrote: If you do something in this area, please implement the ISO 14755 hex input method, and not the old MS-Windows one. (Or implement both together, if you really need MS-Windows compatibility here. They don't interfere with each other, because the ISO 14755 technique uses Ctrl-Shift to activate the hex-entry mode, while MS-Windows uses Alt.) For reasons stated in my previous message I really need the DOS/MS-Windows method. However, if there is a viable solution for either of the methods, implementing at least the sections 5.1 and 5.2 (basic and keyboard symbol entry) from ISO 14755 should be fairly straight-forward. Therefore I'll consider implementing both of them, but first I need a viable solution anyway. Gtk+ 2 already implements Ctrl-Shift stuff. Just try it in any GtkTextEntry. Cheers, Danilo ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [I18n] Re: Emulation of Alt+Numpad+Digits behavior
Danilo Segan wrote on 2004-08-05 10:51 UTC: Yesterday at 19:35, Jörg Henne wrote: Markus Kuhn wrote: If you do something in this area, please implement the ISO 14755 hex input method, and not the old MS-Windows one. (Or implement both together, if you really need MS-Windows compatibility here. They don't interfere with each other, because the ISO 14755 technique uses Ctrl-Shift to activate the hex-entry mode, while MS-Windows uses Alt.) For reasons stated in my previous message I really need the DOS/MS-Windows method. However, if there is a viable solution for either of the methods, implementing at least the sections 5.1 and 5.2 (basic and keyboard symbol entry) from ISO 14755 should be fairly straight-forward. Therefore I'll consider implementing both of them, but first I need a viable solution anyway. Gtk+ 2 already implements Ctrl-Shift stuff. Just try it in any GtkTextEntry. That's for my taste one level to high in the library stack. It would be nicer to have it somewhere in the X11 library instead, along with the other input method mechanics, such that all applications benefit from it, not just those using Gtk+. Markus -- Markus Kuhn, Computer Lab, Univ of Cambridge, GB http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ | __oo_O..O_oo__ ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Emulation of Alt+Numpad+Digits behavior
Hi, well, even after digging through lots of source code and documentation, I could really use some help. What I am trying to do is to emulate the MS-Windows behaviour which lets one enter arbitrary characters by using the Alt-Key while entering the character code on the numerical keypad. What would have to happen in order to emulate this feature is pretty simple: after releasing the Alt-Key, two (down/up) extra events would have to be sent which carry the keysym for the character which has been entered. However, this is not possible because the events carry just the keycodes and not keysyms. I currently see two solutions: - To add some code to the keyboard driver which synthesizes the events using a keysym-to-keycode lookup. This poses some problems: what happens if no corresponding keycode exists for thei given keysym? And how does this go together with xkb processing? - To extend Xlib so that the emulation happens on the client side. Of course this brings up even bigger problems: is there a central and reliable place to do this? XLookupKeysym and friends would have to keep some state and work together with some event dispatching magic. That doesn't really sound healthy. Well, that's it for now. Any help would be very greatly appreciated. Joerg Henne ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Emulation of Alt+Numpad+Digits behavior
Alan Coopersmith wrote: I'm not familiar with all the details, but it sounds like this may be easiest done by adding a new input method on the client side - I've cc'ed the i18n list in the hopes someone there can confirm or deny my suspicion. That sounds really interesting. I've just read a few things about X and input methods. What irritates me about this solution is that it seems like it would need special support for each and every application. However, I'm looking for a solution which works with every or most of the existing applications. Thanks Joerg Henne ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Emulation of Alt+Numpad+Digits behavior
Alan Coopersmith wrote: Hi, I am not sure either what would be the correct place for this code. One possible place is keep some state code in xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/common/xf86Events.c:xf86PostKbdEvent(), maybe handle it in xkb code or as Alan said, a new input method. I'm not familiar with all the details, but it sounds like this may be easiest done by adding a new input method on the client side - I've cc'ed the i18n list in the hopes someone there can confirm or deny my suspicion. -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering Jörg Henne wrote: Hi, well, even after digging through lots of source code and documentation, I could really use some help. What I am trying to do is to emulate the MS-Windows behaviour which lets one enter arbitrary characters by using the Alt-Key while entering the character code on the numerical keypad. What would have to happen in order to emulate this feature is pretty simple: after releasing the Alt-Key, two (down/up) extra events would have to be sent which carry the keysym for the character which has been entered. However, this is not possible because the events carry just the keycodes and not keysyms. I currently see two solutions: - To add some code to the keyboard driver which synthesizes the events using a keysym-to-keycode lookup. This poses some problems: what happens if no corresponding keycode exists for thei given keysym? And how does this go together with xkb processing? - To extend Xlib so that the emulation happens on the client side. Of course this brings up even bigger problems: is there a central and reliable place to do this? XLookupKeysym and friends would have to keep some state and work together with some event dispatching magic. That doesn't really sound healthy. Well, that's it for now. Any help would be very greatly appreciated. Joerg Henne Paulo ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Emulation of Alt+Numpad+Digits behavior
Jörg Henne wrote: That sounds really interesting. I've just read a few things about X and input methods. What irritates me about this solution is that it seems like it would need special support for each and every application. However, I'm looking for a solution which works with every or most of the existing applications. Is this goal even achievable? The Alt-NumPad thing works in MS-DOS and Windows because it's implemented in the BIOS, and because the keyboard character sets mappings are universal and strictly controlled. Alt-0227 maps to ã because that's the way it is in the standard code page. X, on the other hand, is not supposed to be defining policy. Let's assume your solution was implemented. What would you expect to happen when you do Alt-227? What symbol would it be, and in what character set? Is it the same with a German keyboard layout? Can we say unconditionally that no X application currently uses Alt-Numpad combinations? Or maybe I'm just scaring up issues where none exist. -- - Tim Roberts, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providenza Boekelheide, Inc. ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [I18n] Re: Emulation of Alt+Numpad+Digits behavior
Markus Kuhn wrote: If you do something in this area, please implement the ISO 14755 hex input method, and not the old MS-Windows one. (Or implement both together, if you really need MS-Windows compatibility here. They don't interfere with each other, because the ISO 14755 technique uses Ctrl-Shift to activate the hex-entry mode, while MS-Windows uses Alt.) For reasons stated in my previous message I really need the DOS/MS-Windows method. However, if there is a viable solution for either of the methods, implementing at least the sections 5.1 and 5.2 (basic and keyboard symbol entry) from ISO 14755 should be fairly straight-forward. Therefore I'll consider implementing both of them, but first I need a viable solution anyway. Joerg Henne ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Emulation of Alt+Numpad+Digits behavior
I'm going to chime in ... X, on the other hand, is not supposed to be defining policy. Let's assume your solution was implemented. What would you expect to happen when you do Alt-227? What symbol would it be, and in what character set? Is it the same with a German keyboard layout? I do think that this goal is achievable, because the Alt-Numpad functionality is so limited: all it does is to generate the same symbols without regard to any codepage, keyboard mapping etc. And that's what makes it useful im some cases (see below). And exactly because the functionality is not supposed to be flexible at all, I think that it doesn't necessarily conflict with the X paradigm. To play nice, this should only need xkb file interpretation changes (changing the way the code works may get messy). I'm not that hip on how XKB maintains state, but for Alt-gr type combos it is at least close. Yes, with the german (or any other) keyboard Alt-0227 generates an ã. But beware: Alt-227 (without the leading 0) is different. This is because MS added the four-digit mappings in Windows in order to maintain compatibility with the three-digit ones from DOS. Can we say unconditionally that no X application currently uses Alt-Numpad combinations? Or maybe I'm just scaring up issues where none exist. I don't think that one can safely assume that no application ever uses Alt-Numpad combinations. My experience says you can never safely assume anything about x apps :) However, if those applications exist, they are probably rather rare. So why do I want the Alt-Numpad feature anyway, you may ask. The reason is simple: some specialized devices like keyboards with integrated readers for Smartcards or keyboard-wedge style barcode readers transmit their data via this mechanism. And their reason to use it, is that it offers a channel which is guaranteed to be transparent. i.e. unencumbered by keyboard mappings etc. ummm ... the to be transparent is true for windows, but obviously not for unix or mac or ... This really smells like an input method ...so your app that needs to play with readers for Smartcards or keyboard-wedge style barcode readers would need to support the input method. Rob ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Emulation of Alt+Numpad+Digits behavior
Hi,
(I seem to be out of luck on the XFree86 list, therefore I repost this
message to devel)
is it possible with a stock XF86 to emulate the Windows/DOS behavior
where the combination of Alt (held down) plus a combination of three
numpad digits is translated into a corresponding key code? For instance
pressing and holding Alt and typing 1, 2, 3 on the numpad generates a {.
If this is not possible, where would I start looking, if I wanted to
implement this feature? I guess this whould go into xkb rather than the
keyboard/kbd driver, correct?
Thanks in advance
Joerg Henne
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