Re: [Development] [QA] Suggestion -- Setting Up the Priority in JIRA
On 03/18/2013 12:45 PM, Knoll Lars wrote:
On 3/14/13 1:00 PM, Jason McDonald macadd...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:48 PM, Anttila Janne janne.antt...@digia.com
wrote:
Jason McDonald wrote:
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 2:42 AM, Thiago Macieira
thiago.macie...@intel.com wrote:
On terça-feira, 12 de março de 2013 13.28.37, Motyka Rafal wrote:
Hello,
I want to suggest another change for JIRA: - A Reporter should be
able
to set the Priority starting from the Create Issue window. -
Guidelines for setting Priority should be provided (already working
today).
Please feel free to comment on this. If there are no serious
objections, this change will be introduced soon. The impact of the
change will be evaluated.
I disagree. The priority should be set by the triager, the person who
can make a dispassionate, objective assessment of the bug's priority.
The bug reporter is way too involved to make that assessment.
When we first introduced Jira, we allowed the priority field to be set
by the reporter, and this resulted in me spending rather a lot of time
turning P0's and P1's into P3's and P4's. Before long my boss decided
to hide the priority field from the Create Issue form. I don't know
whether the climate has changed enough since then for it to be
reasonable to expect a different result if we were to put the priority
field back in the form.
Would it be possible to bring priority field back for certain JIRA
roles,
if not for everyone?
Sure, approvers and maintainers were not the source of the problem.
The grossly exaggerated priorities mostly came from Qt users (as
opposed to those developing Qt) and from a subset of Nokia's QA
contractors.
We could certainly benefit from better initial information on the bug. The
way to solve this could be to use some sort of questionnaire during the
creation of the bug (does it cause crashes, do you have a workaround,
etc.) and compute an initial priority depending on the answers.
Still I think we need to make it easy for people to get 'bug evaluation'
privileges in Jira without requiring them to be Approvers. So a group for
people with somewhat extended Jira editing rights would be a good thing
IMO.
Cheers,
Lars
The idea of allowing everyone to set priorities for bugs originally
sounded risky to me, but the more I think about and discuss the
alternatives, the better it sounds. I'm going to propose something:
Everyone with a Qt Project Jira account can set the priority for a
*bug*; suggestions should probably not have a priority field at all. The
importance of a suggestion can be determined by the amount of
voters/watchers.
The Create Issue form (when creating an issue of type Bug) is altered
like so (* = mandatory):
Summary *
Affects Version/s *
Component/s *
Compilable, reproducible example * (was Description, has text under
the field name that says Please use {code}{code} tags to provide code
samples or attach files below. Click the (?) icon for formatting help.)
Tested environments * (as opposed to just Environment - this makes it
clear that only the listed environments were tested by the reporter and
that others could be affected)
Causes a crash * (checkbox)
Is a regression * (checkbox)
Latest known working version (shown/enabled if Is a regression is
checked)
Has a workaround * (checkbox)
Workaround (shown/enabled if Has a workaround is checked)
Priority * (has text under the field name that says Please click the
(?) icon for an explanation of which priority is appropriate for this bug.)
Assignee
Attachment
Each new field (where it's not already mentioned) would of course need
accompanying help text/a help icon describing the field.
Renaming the Description field to Compilable, reproducible example
is not going to stop people from providing too little information to
reproduce the bug, unfortunately. I feel that this is more important
than the issue of untriaged bugs. More time is wasted by trying to
reproduce something than setting the priority after a quick glance of
the reported negative effects of a bug.
Cheers.
___
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Re: [Development] [QA] Suggestion -- Setting Up the Priority in JIRA
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 12:05:31PM +0100, Mitch Curtis wrote: The idea of allowing everyone to set priorities for bugs originally sounded risky to me, but the more I think about and discuss the alternatives, the better it sounds. I'm going to propose something: I see your proposition, but I would like if you would explain what it would improve, the motivation behind it. For me the priority is only valuable if all bugs are triaged according to the same scale. For emotional reason, no user is going to bother filling a bug report and set it to low priority. Since a big share of bug reports are reported by user, that means that part of the bug will be reported with a scale of P1-to-P5 as reference, while the rest will use a compressed P1-to-P3 scale. I like the idea that a group of tightly connected people do the triaging for that reason. Everyone with a Qt Project Jira account can set the priority for a *bug*; suggestions should probably not have a priority field at all. The importance of a suggestion can be determined by the amount of voters/watchers. Votes are a user pulse tool, priority is a project management tool. For example, if for one suggestion a paying voter is giving the assignee 10x more $$$ than all the rest of the voters on a different suggestion, the assignee will probably want to track the high-revenue suggestion as more important. So I think that importance is also relevant for suggestions. I'm saying all this without knowing what you would like to improve, so this might be slightly irrelevant. Cheers, Jocelyn ___ Development mailing list Development@qt-project.org http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
Re: [Development] [QA] Suggestion -- Setting Up the Priority in JIRA
On 03/20/2013 12:53 PM, Jocelyn Turcotte wrote: On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 12:05:31PM +0100, Mitch Curtis wrote: The idea of allowing everyone to set priorities for bugs originally sounded risky to me, but the more I think about and discuss the alternatives, the better it sounds. I'm going to propose something: I see your proposition, but I would like if you would explain what it would improve, the motivation behind it. For me the priority is only valuable if all bugs are triaged according to the same scale. For emotional reason, no user is going to bother filling a bug report and set it to low priority. Since a big share of bug reports are reported by user, that means that part of the bug will be reported with a scale of P1-to-P5 as reference, while the rest will use a compressed P1-to-P3 scale. I like the idea that a group of tightly connected people do the triaging for that reason. Perahps I should have sent my proposal as a separate email, as it's not at all dependent on the user being able to set the priority. I'm less bothered by whether or not users can set priority than whether or not they create useful bug reports. When I'm looking at an untouched bug, the biggest issue is whether or not I'm able to reproduce it; determining the priority is almost always easy. My proposal aims to encourage the creation of useful bug reports where the only thing that needs to be done by someone trying to determine whether it is valid or not (which is separate from setting the priority) is copy the code from the report into Creator and run it. Like I said, making certain fields mandatory won't stop *everyone* from creating less-than-useful bug reports, but it helps. The fields that I stole from Lars' suggestions (regression, workaround) related to the questionnaire are useful regardless of whether the user can set the priority and I don't think that they need to be explained. Everyone with a Qt Project Jira account can set the priority for a *bug*; suggestions should probably not have a priority field at all. The importance of a suggestion can be determined by the amount of voters/watchers. Votes are a user pulse tool, priority is a project management tool. For example, if for one suggestion a paying voter is giving the assignee 10x more $$$ than all the rest of the voters on a different suggestion, the assignee will probably want to track the high-revenue suggestion as more important. So I think that importance is also relevant for suggestions. I'm not so sure that someone being *payed* to implement a suggestion should be relying on a publically available priority field in Jira to track their work. ___ Development mailing list Development@qt-project.org http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
Re: [Development] [QA] Suggestion -- Setting Up the Priority in JIRA
On 3/14/13 1:00 PM, Jason McDonald macadd...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:48 PM, Anttila Janne janne.antt...@digia.com wrote: Jason McDonald wrote: On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 2:42 AM, Thiago Macieira thiago.macie...@intel.com wrote: On terça-feira, 12 de março de 2013 13.28.37, Motyka Rafal wrote: Hello, I want to suggest another change for JIRA: - A Reporter should be able to set the Priority starting from the Create Issue window. - Guidelines for setting Priority should be provided (already working today). Please feel free to comment on this. If there are no serious objections, this change will be introduced soon. The impact of the change will be evaluated. I disagree. The priority should be set by the triager, the person who can make a dispassionate, objective assessment of the bug's priority. The bug reporter is way too involved to make that assessment. When we first introduced Jira, we allowed the priority field to be set by the reporter, and this resulted in me spending rather a lot of time turning P0's and P1's into P3's and P4's. Before long my boss decided to hide the priority field from the Create Issue form. I don't know whether the climate has changed enough since then for it to be reasonable to expect a different result if we were to put the priority field back in the form. Would it be possible to bring priority field back for certain JIRA roles, if not for everyone? Sure, approvers and maintainers were not the source of the problem. The grossly exaggerated priorities mostly came from Qt users (as opposed to those developing Qt) and from a subset of Nokia's QA contractors. We could certainly benefit from better initial information on the bug. The way to solve this could be to use some sort of questionnaire during the creation of the bug (does it cause crashes, do you have a workaround, etc.) and compute an initial priority depending on the answers. Still I think we need to make it easy for people to get 'bug evaluation' privileges in Jira without requiring them to be Approvers. So a group for people with somewhat extended Jira editing rights would be a good thing IMO. Cheers, Lars ___ Development mailing list Development@qt-project.org http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
Re: [Development] [QA] Suggestion -- Setting Up the Priority in JIRA
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:48 PM, Anttila Janne janne.antt...@digia.com wrote: Jason McDonald wrote: On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 2:42 AM, Thiago Macieira thiago.macie...@intel.com wrote: On terça-feira, 12 de março de 2013 13.28.37, Motyka Rafal wrote: Hello, I want to suggest another change for JIRA: - A Reporter should be able to set the Priority starting from the Create Issue window. - Guidelines for setting Priority should be provided (already working today). Please feel free to comment on this. If there are no serious objections, this change will be introduced soon. The impact of the change will be evaluated. I disagree. The priority should be set by the triager, the person who can make a dispassionate, objective assessment of the bug's priority. The bug reporter is way too involved to make that assessment. When we first introduced Jira, we allowed the priority field to be set by the reporter, and this resulted in me spending rather a lot of time turning P0's and P1's into P3's and P4's. Before long my boss decided to hide the priority field from the Create Issue form. I don't know whether the climate has changed enough since then for it to be reasonable to expect a different result if we were to put the priority field back in the form. Would it be possible to bring priority field back for certain JIRA roles, if not for everyone? Sure, approvers and maintainers were not the source of the problem. The grossly exaggerated priorities mostly came from Qt users (as opposed to those developing Qt) and from a subset of Nokia's QA contractors. -- Jason ___ Development mailing list Development@qt-project.org http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
Re: [Development] [QA] Suggestion -- Setting Up the Priority in JIRA
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 2:42 AM, Thiago Macieira thiago.macie...@intel.com wrote: On terça-feira, 12 de março de 2013 13.28.37, Motyka Rafal wrote: Hello, I want to suggest another change for JIRA: - A Reporter should be able to set the Priority starting from the Create Issue window. - Guidelines for setting Priority should be provided (already working today). Please feel free to comment on this. If there are no serious objections, this change will be introduced soon. The impact of the change will be evaluated. I disagree. The priority should be set by the triager, the person who can make a dispassionate, objective assessment of the bug's priority. The bug reporter is way too involved to make that assessment. When we first introduced Jira, we allowed the priority field to be set by the reporter, and this resulted in me spending rather a lot of time turning P0's and P1's into P3's and P4's. Before long my boss decided to hide the priority field from the Create Issue form. I don't know whether the climate has changed enough since then for it to be reasonable to expect a different result if we were to put the priority field back in the form. Cheers, -- Jason ___ Development mailing list Development@qt-project.org http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
Re: [Development] [QA] Suggestion -- Setting Up the Priority in JIRA
Jason McDonald wrote: On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 2:42 AM, Thiago Macieira thiago.macie...@intel.com wrote: On terça-feira, 12 de março de 2013 13.28.37, Motyka Rafal wrote: Hello, I want to suggest another change for JIRA: - A Reporter should be able to set the Priority starting from the Create Issue window. - Guidelines for setting Priority should be provided (already working today). Please feel free to comment on this. If there are no serious objections, this change will be introduced soon. The impact of the change will be evaluated. I disagree. The priority should be set by the triager, the person who can make a dispassionate, objective assessment of the bug's priority. The bug reporter is way too involved to make that assessment. When we first introduced Jira, we allowed the priority field to be set by the reporter, and this resulted in me spending rather a lot of time turning P0's and P1's into P3's and P4's. Before long my boss decided to hide the priority field from the Create Issue form. I don't know whether the climate has changed enough since then for it to be reasonable to expect a different result if we were to put the priority field back in the form. Would it be possible to bring priority field back for certain JIRA roles, if not for everyone? I don't have a statistics but I have a feeling that still most of the bugs are reported by Qt developers/approvers/maintainer, i.e. the same persons who are doing the triaging. Or do we think that also those persons cannot make objective assessment of bug priority, since the bug might not be his core expertise area? -- Janne Anttila Senior Architect - Digia, Qt Visit us on: http://qt.digia.com ___ Development mailing list Development@qt-project.org http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
Re: [Development] [QA] Suggestion -- Setting Up the Priority in JIRA
On quarta-feira, 13 de março de 2013 13.48.21, Anttila Janne wrote: Would it be possible to bring priority field back for certain JIRA roles, if not for everyone? I don't have a statistics but I have a feeling that still most of the bugs are reported by Qt developers/approvers/maintainer, i.e. the same persons who are doing the triaging. Or do we think that also those persons cannot make objective assessment of bug priority, since the bug might not be his core expertise area? How about this: everyone *can* set the priority, but only if you click Edit? Most people reporting bugs will not see it. -- Thiago Macieira - thiago.macieira (AT) intel.com Software Architect - Intel Open Source Technology Center signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Development mailing list Development@qt-project.org http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
Re: [Development] [QA] Suggestion -- Setting Up the Priority in JIRA
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 09:23:16AM -0700, Thiago Macieira wrote: On quarta-feira, 13 de março de 2013 13.48.21, Anttila Janne wrote: Would it be possible to bring priority field back for certain JIRA roles, if not for everyone? +1 How about this: everyone *can* set the priority, but only if you click Edit? Most people reporting bugs will not see it. that doesn't sound right to me. it looks like a mistake, not like a statement, and some people will understand it that way. ___ Development mailing list Development@qt-project.org http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
Re: [Development] [QA] Suggestion -- Setting Up the Priority in JIRA
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 01:28:37PM +, Motyka Rafal wrote: Hello, I want to suggest another change for JIRA: - A Reporter should be able to set the Priority starting from the Create Issue window. i don't think so. seriously, everyone thinks that their issue is the most important one. consequently, only the assignee and authorized users (at least members of a yet-to-be-determined triagers group) should be able to set the priority. of course this can be circumvented if everyone is able to assign a bug to himself, but it's still a mental barrier. on a related note, the jira setup should gain fields that support a User Pain based priorization process. (idea extensively discussed internally a few years ago). we might want to be more lenient about the permissions of these fields. - Guidelines for setting Priority should be provided (already working today). Please feel free to comment on this. If there are no serious objections, this change will be introduced soon. The impact of the change will be evaluated. Best regards, /Rafal Rafal Motyka QE Engineer Digia, Qt Email: rafal.mot...@digia.commailto:forename.surn...@digia.com Mobile: +47 95005389 http://qt.digia.com Qt Blog: http://blog.qt.digia.com/ Qt Facebook: www.facebook.com/qt Qt Twitter: www.twitter.com/qtcommercial -- PRIVACY AND CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This message and any attachments are intended only for use by the named addressee and may contain privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, copy or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error, please contact the sender immediately and delete the message and any attachments accompanying it. Digia Plc does not accept liability for any corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or viruses occurring to this message. - ___ Development mailing list Development@qt-project.org http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development ___ Development mailing list Development@qt-project.org http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
Re: [Development] [QA] Suggestion -- Setting Up the Priority in JIRA
On terça-feira, 12 de março de 2013 13.28.37, Motyka Rafal wrote: Hello, I want to suggest another change for JIRA: - A Reporter should be able to set the Priority starting from the Create Issue window. - Guidelines for setting Priority should be provided (already working today). Please feel free to comment on this. If there are no serious objections, this change will be introduced soon. The impact of the change will be evaluated. I disagree. The priority should be set by the triager, the person who can make a dispassionate, objective assessment of the bug's priority. The bug reporter is way too involved to make that assessment. -- Thiago Macieira - thiago.macieira (AT) intel.com Software Architect - Intel Open Source Technology Center signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Development mailing list Development@qt-project.org http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
