[freenet-dev] FYI: freenet built with Maven

[Ximin Luo]

On 19/04/11 22:48, Ian Clarke wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Ian Clarke  wrote:
> 
>> We might also want to consider some of the Maven-compatible built tools out
>> there, including Apache Ivy, Groovy Grape, and Apache Buildr.
> 
> 
> In fact, since we already use Ant, Apache Ivy is an obvious choice.
> 

sounds interesting, i will have a look through that when i get some time.

> Ian.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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[freenet-dev] [GSoC 2011] Idea : Porting to Apache Struts

[Arne Babenhauserheide]

On Tuesday 19 April 2011 19:35:41 Matthew Toseland wrote:
> Plus, ideally we'd like Freenet to support multiple logins.

That would be cool! 

Then we could add real gateways to WoT, creating a decentral, anonymizing (as 
long as you can trust your gateway) social network.

?getting even more excited about freenet?s future!

Best wishes, 
Arne
-- 
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sie alle zu finden,
in Spiele zu leiten
und sacht zu verbinden.
? http://1w6.org

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[freenet-dev] Idea for marketing, related to GSoC student decision

[Arne Babenhauserheide]

On Tuesday 19 April 2011 19:22:09 Matthew Toseland wrote:
> On Monday 18 Apr 2011 15:49:50 xor wrote:
> > IF we get a decent new web interface done which integrates all of those,
> > we could make a theme which completely looks like Facebook and then do
> > a major press release which claims something like "Freenet project
> > implements anonymous Facebook". This would probably hit most of the IT
> > news sites and help usability very much because there are hundreds of
> > millions of Facebook users and Facebook is a major buzzword.
> 
> And probably result in legal issues e.g. trademark violation.

?Freenet takes a hint from Facebook, but with real privacy (even from its 
developers)?

?Don?t put your face in their book. Join the free net.?

Just some legally safe PR ideas :)

Best wishes, 
Arne
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[freenet-dev] [GSoC 2011] Idea : Porting to Apache Struts

[Matthew Toseland]

On Tuesday 19 Apr 2011 18:16:25 David ?Bombe? Roden wrote:
> On Tuesday 19 April 2011 15:19:05 Matthew Toseland wrote:
> 
> > > 1. A servlet container (I suggest Jetty) [or adapt already existing
> > > "SimpleToadletServer"]
> > If we are building our own why do we need servlets? Aren't they
> > significantly more complex even than toadlets?
> 
> Because most servlet containers get certain things right, e.g. session 
> handlings (which is kind of broken in Fred).

Well, the WoT apps need session handling, and therefore we will more broadly if 
we embed them.

Plus, ideally we'd like Freenet to support multiple logins.

So I guess that's a good enough reason.
> 
> > Right. The bulk of the work will be converting the code to use the
> > templates.
> 
> Oh yes. HTMLNode and related classes (such as PageMaker) are being dragged 
> through everywhere, including our plugin interface ? this will require a new 
> plugin interface, or we risk massive incompatibilities will all existing 
> plugins.

Right, it will be a lot of work, although the plugin API isn't exactly set in 
stone; we'd like to keep back compatibility for the increasing number of 
out-of-tree plugins, within reason.
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[freenet-dev] Idea for marketing, related to GSoC student decision

[Matthew Toseland]

On Monday 18 Apr 2011 15:49:50 xor wrote:
> Hi,
> while looking at a screenshot of Sone and being impressed at it I had the 
> following marketing idea:
> 
> We have FlogHelper, Freemail, Sone, Web Of Trust and Freetalk.
> If we integrate them all on the web interface properly and extend them with 
> some features we could get many of the interesting Facebook features: 
> - Sone already provides the core of Facebook - the wall-style messaging
> - Freemail will provide private messaging if zidel's GSoC project is taken 
> and 
> succeeds
> - Profile pages could be done at WOT. Easy to implement

And important IMHO. They must link to ALL the WoT services. I.e. you click on 
somebody in Freetalk and go to their profile, then you click a button to send 
them a private message, or see their flog, or whatever.

> - Photo albums are also easy to implement and could be done in WOT or Sone

Or FlogHelper? I guess it would be best to separate and integrate...

Photos are clearly valuable even if the traditional usages of them are far from 
anonymous. 

But we need more broadly to make it really easy for individual users to publish 
files of all sorts. If they are pictures they should be in galleries; if they 
are bigger files they might just be searchable. There is likely some overlap 
here...

> - Freetalk provides the group-collaborating / classic Internet messaging
> (- FlogHelper would be a bonus, not related to Facebook but blogging is also 
> popular on the net)
> 
> IF we get a decent new web interface done which integrates all of those, we 
> could make a theme which completely looks like Facebook and then do a major 
> press release which claims something like "Freenet project implements 
> anonymous Facebook". This would probably hit most of the IT news sites and 
> help usability very much because there are hundreds of millions of Facebook 
> users and Facebook is a major buzzword.

And probably result in legal issues e.g. trademark violation.
> 
> This is also not solely a marketing idea, it is somewhat needed for a good 
> code architecture which avoids duplication:
> We have to find a way of making WOT UI available in all WOT-clients without 
> code duplication. This requires some serious internal architecture 
> improvements of the web interface probably.

Strongly in favour. We need the Community menu for managing trust levels, and 
if we do it properly it can do a lot more than that.
> 
> Given that the architecture of our web interface is homebrew, difficult to 
> use 
> by web developers and needs a complete re-write anyway I suggest that we 
> include what I've described in this mail in our GSoC decision:
> 
> IF there is a good student besides zidel who wants to revamp the web 
> interface 
> with a web-UI-framework we should try to take him. We could benefit very much 
> from a new code architecture of the web interface!
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[freenet-dev] [GSoC 2011] Idea : Porting to Apache Struts

[David ‘Bombe’ Roden]

On Tuesday 19 April 2011 15:19:05 Matthew Toseland wrote:

> > 1. A servlet container (I suggest Jetty) [or adapt already existing
> > "SimpleToadletServer"]
> If we are building our own why do we need servlets? Aren't they
> significantly more complex even than toadlets?

Because most servlet containers get certain things right, e.g. session 
handlings (which is kind of broken in Fred).


> Right. The bulk of the work will be converting the code to use the
> templates.

Oh yes. HTMLNode and related classes (such as PageMaker) are being dragged 
through everywhere, including our plugin interface ? this will require a new 
plugin interface, or we risk massive incompatibilities will all existing 
plugins.


David
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[freenet-dev] FYI: freenet built with Maven

[Ian Clarke]

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Ian Clarke  wrote:

> We might also want to consider some of the Maven-compatible built tools out
> there, including Apache Ivy, Groovy Grape, and Apache Buildr.


In fact, since we already use Ant, Apache Ivy is an obvious choice.

Ian.

-- 
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Personal blog: http://blog.locut.us/
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[freenet-dev] FYI: freenet built with Maven

[Ian Clarke]

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 1:22 PM, Matthew Toseland  wrote:

>  > This is a danger.  If someone wants to compromise us, with Maven they
> just
> > need to compromise any one of our dependencies.
> >
> > We would need to stick to trusted repositories, but switching to Maven
> would
> > make development quite a bit easier.
>
> Agreed. If it is secure, it is worth serious consideration.
>

We might also want to consider some of the Maven-compatible built tools out
there, including Apache Ivy, Groovy Grape, and Apache Buildr.

I primarily use Maven, but the ludicrously verbose XML configuration files
really get annoying to work with.

(I'd like to kick the butt of whichever moron decided that it would be a
great idea to use a text markup language as a generic human-readable data
representation language)

Ian.

-- 
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Personal blog: http://blog.locut.us/
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[freenet-dev] How much latency is acceptable for forums?

[Matthew Toseland]

How much latency is acceptable for forums? 1 minute? 1 hour? 3 hours? 1 day? 3 
days?

To what degree can this be moderated by how much you trust/are interested in a 
specific identity? I.e. we could poll the 30 identities that you have given 
positive trust to manually fast enough to see their messages within minutes, 
but much of the rest only every few hours.

(Remember that only negative trust settings are a "censorship" problem in the 
current WebOfTrust; trust levels are strictly additive iirc)

These issues are very much relevant for scaling Freetalk. I suspect they are 
relevant for FMS too.

Obviously for apps with more obvious friend/follow relationships (Sone), this 
is different: we mainly care about those we follow, some latency for 
third-party replies is probably acceptable (reduced by hints when somebody else 
brings it to our attention); and we may even use CAPTCHAs for third parties to 
gain our attention quickly.

(CC'ing support for a broader range of opinions, since this is largely a 
usability issue)
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[freenet-dev] [GSoC 2011] Idea : Porting to Apache Struts

[Matthew Toseland]

On Sunday 17 Apr 2011 19:20:28 Pouyan Zachar wrote:
> [pouyan]
> >> httpserver delivered with the Java 6 is only a simple webserver and is
> >> not a servlet container. on the other hand I don't think that it would
> >> be complicated to imitate some vital functionalities of a servlet
> >> container
> >> Those for MVC architecture say "Aye"
> [Ian]
> > MVC is a nobrainer, the hard question is *which* MVC framework.  Criteria
> > are:
> >
> > Shallow learning curve (since regardless of which we choose, its likely to
> > be unfamiliar to some developers)
> > Lightweight (so that it doesn't increase the size of Freenet's
> > distributable)
> > Well supported
> > Pleasant to use
> > Ian Clarke
> 
> We are not "forced" to choose between existing frameworks. IMHO,
> Building a lightweight framework tailored for Freenet is the best
> solution for the current situation. Following tools are needed:
> 
> 1. A servlet container (I suggest Jetty) [or adapt already existing
> "SimpleToadletServer"]

If we are building our own why do we need servlets? Aren't they significantly 
more complex even than toadlets?

Not that I'm necessarily opposed. Maybe there is stuff we can use usefully 
which isn't gigantic?

> 2. A templating engine (Velocity is suggested)

Yes, a fast templating engine is definitely a good idea. It would make for 
cleaner code, easier to modify the UI and also faster than HTMLNode's.
> 
> And following steps must be taken:
> 
> i. Build a controller servlet/toadlet which handles http requests and
> redirects them to responsible Toadlet. Servlet/Toadlet can be
> configurable using a XML file (just like Struts) e.g managing
> forwardings.

Currently we just hardcode registrations by URL. This is low priority imho.

> ii. Adapt Toadlet class to template engine and provide a mechanism to
> register desired properties and methods to the templates context (can
> be done elegantly using annotations).

This is a good idea. If the former is a prerequisite for this then okay.
> 
> After doing so we have our own simple and configurable framework which
> is based upon MVC architecture and suits freenet needs. The only
> remaining step is to externalize toadlets view in JSP-like HTML pages
> (which are processed by template engine). Moreover a toadlet can have
> different views for different needs, so you could have all those fancy
> javascript effects beside simple lame HTML elements.

Right. The bulk of the work will be converting the code to use the templates.
> 
> In case of Velocity, because of simple notation and tidy syntax, the
> learning curve would be minimum, it is well supported however it is
> not that pleasant to use :) but its a tradeoff between simplicity and
> pleasure!

Can you show a small easy to understand example?
> 
> This way we would make sure that the framework is as big as necessary
> and as small as possible by avoiding all unnecessary features provided
> by existing frameworks.

Yeah, if this is feasible then it makes sense.

It also leaves out the question of what to do about javascript/GWT, which IMHO 
is separate and can if necessary wait for another GSoC.
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[freenet-dev] FYI: freenet built with Maven

[Ian Clarke]

On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 5:01 PM, Ximin Luo  wrote:

> Also, for the "download everything it needs", how secure is this? Do you
> have
> official documentation that says everything is signed / checksummed?
>

This is a danger.  If someone wants to compromise us, with Maven they just
need to compromise any one of our dependencies.

We would need to stick to trusted repositories, but switching to Maven would
make development quite a bit easier.

Ian.

-- 
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Personal blog: http://blog.locut.us/
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[freenet-dev] FYI: freenet built with Maven

[Ximin Luo]

Hi, I appreciate your efforts but there isn't much of a point using maven
unless freenet-ext is built with it too. That is the bulk of the work. As you
said, simply making a pom.xml for only fred is trivial if you know maven.

Do you have an example output of sonar to show us? Some of us are lazy and
can't be bothered installing extra software avd figuring out how to run it,
whereas I guess you already have such output and can upload it quite easily.

Also, for the "download everything it needs", how secure is this? Do you have
official documentation that says everything is signed / checksummed?

X

On 17/04/11 23:06, freenet.10.technomation at recursor.net wrote:
> Hey Y'all,
> 
> I have fred-staging building with Maven for your review. I've pushed it to:
> 
> https://github.com/SebastianWeetabix/fred-maven
> 
> 
> 
> To build you need Maven (http://maven.apache.org/), and for the real value
> add, Sonar (http://www.sonarsource.org/).
> 
> Kick off Sonar and make sure it's ready - http://localhost:9000/
> 
> If you have Maven 3, build using:
> 
> mvn clean install sonar:sonar
> 
> 
> If you have Maven 2 use the mvn2-pom.xml:
> 
> mvn -f mvn2-pom.xml clean install sonar:sonar
> 
> 
> First time, Maven will download everything it needs, which may take a while,
> and then compile and analyze *fred*. Once it is done, you will have a
> freenet snapshot .jar in _target_, and a detail analysis of the codebase at
> http://localhost:9000/
> 
> 
> 
> Caveats - there are a handful of minor issues.
>   * As I'm not building *contrib*, I've had to drop a copy of
> _freenet-ext.jar* in _lib_ for the time being. Ultimately, it would be being
> build locally and installed to your local repo.
> 
>   * Artifacts from *contrib* left in *fred* - In src the org.* and net.*
> package trees are not included in the distributed freenet.jar, but because
> they're in the project, Maven keeps then in the built .jar. I'm guessing
> that these trees should actually be in contrib(?). They are need to compile
> the freenet.* tree.
> 
>   * Some tests have been left out: They kick off some process in testing
> that does not exit cleanly, and the hanging process locks temp files that
> lock the _sonar:sonar_ target. No biggy, this is one of those code quality
> things that Sonar should show up :)
> 
> 
> 
> Summing up, implementing a Maven build was not very difficult, provides a
> straightforward mechanism to build, and to do thorough code analysis that
> should help identify redundant and suspect code, and provide focus on
> increasing code quality and a clean overall design.
> 
> 
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> 
> SW
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [freenet-dev] [GSoC 2011] Idea : Porting to Apache Struts

[David ‘Bombe’ Roden]

On Tuesday 19 April 2011 15:19:05 Matthew Toseland wrote:

  1. A servlet container (I suggest Jetty) [or adapt already existing
  SimpleToadletServer]
 If we are building our own why do we need servlets? Aren't they
 significantly more complex even than toadlets?

Because most servlet containers get certain things right, e.g. session 
handlings (which is kind of broken in Fred).


 Right. The bulk of the work will be converting the code to use the
 templates.

Oh yes. HTMLNode and related classes (such as PageMaker) are being dragged 
through everywhere, including our plugin interface — this will require a new 
plugin interface, or we risk massive incompatibilities will all existing 
plugins.


David


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Re: [freenet-dev] Idea for marketing, related to GSoC student decision

[Matthew Toseland]

On Monday 18 Apr 2011 15:49:50 xor wrote:
 Hi,
 while looking at a screenshot of Sone and being impressed at it I had the 
 following marketing idea:
 
 We have FlogHelper, Freemail, Sone, Web Of Trust and Freetalk.
 If we integrate them all on the web interface properly and extend them with 
 some features we could get many of the interesting Facebook features: 
 - Sone already provides the core of Facebook - the wall-style messaging
 - Freemail will provide private messaging if zidel's GSoC project is taken 
 and 
 succeeds
 - Profile pages could be done at WOT. Easy to implement

And important IMHO. They must link to ALL the WoT services. I.e. you click on 
somebody in Freetalk and go to their profile, then you click a button to send 
them a private message, or see their flog, or whatever.

 - Photo albums are also easy to implement and could be done in WOT or Sone

Or FlogHelper? I guess it would be best to separate and integrate...

Photos are clearly valuable even if the traditional usages of them are far from 
anonymous. 

But we need more broadly to make it really easy for individual users to publish 
files of all sorts. If they are pictures they should be in galleries; if they 
are bigger files they might just be searchable. There is likely some overlap 
here...

 - Freetalk provides the group-collaborating / classic Internet messaging
 (- FlogHelper would be a bonus, not related to Facebook but blogging is also 
 popular on the net)
 
 IF we get a decent new web interface done which integrates all of those, we 
 could make a theme which completely looks like Facebook and then do a major 
 press release which claims something like Freenet project implements 
 anonymous Facebook. This would probably hit most of the IT news sites and 
 help usability very much because there are hundreds of millions of Facebook 
 users and Facebook is a major buzzword.

And probably result in legal issues e.g. trademark violation.
 
 This is also not solely a marketing idea, it is somewhat needed for a good 
 code architecture which avoids duplication:
 We have to find a way of making WOT UI available in all WOT-clients without 
 code duplication. This requires some serious internal architecture 
 improvements of the web interface probably.

Strongly in favour. We need the Community menu for managing trust levels, and 
if we do it properly it can do a lot more than that.
 
 Given that the architecture of our web interface is homebrew, difficult to 
 use 
 by web developers and needs a complete re-write anyway I suggest that we 
 include what I've described in this mail in our GSoC decision:
 
 IF there is a good student besides zidel who wants to revamp the web 
 interface 
 with a web-UI-framework we should try to take him. We could benefit very much 
 from a new code architecture of the web interface!


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Re: [freenet-dev] FYI: freenet built with Maven

[Matthew Toseland]

On Tuesday 19 Apr 2011 05:28:59 Ian Clarke wrote:
 On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 5:01 PM, Ximin Luo infini...@gmx.com wrote:
 
  Also, for the download everything it needs, how secure is this? Do you
  have
  official documentation that says everything is signed / checksummed?
 
 
 This is a danger.  If someone wants to compromise us, with Maven they just
 need to compromise any one of our dependencies.
 
 We would need to stick to trusted repositories, but switching to Maven would
 make development quite a bit easier.

Agreed. If it is secure, it is worth serious consideration.


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Re: [freenet-dev] [GSoC 2011] Idea : Porting to Apache Struts

[Matthew Toseland]

On Tuesday 19 Apr 2011 18:16:25 David ‘Bombe’ Roden wrote:
 On Tuesday 19 April 2011 15:19:05 Matthew Toseland wrote:
 
   1. A servlet container (I suggest Jetty) [or adapt already existing
   SimpleToadletServer]
  If we are building our own why do we need servlets? Aren't they
  significantly more complex even than toadlets?
 
 Because most servlet containers get certain things right, e.g. session 
 handlings (which is kind of broken in Fred).

Well, the WoT apps need session handling, and therefore we will more broadly if 
we embed them.

Plus, ideally we'd like Freenet to support multiple logins.

So I guess that's a good enough reason.
 
  Right. The bulk of the work will be converting the code to use the
  templates.
 
 Oh yes. HTMLNode and related classes (such as PageMaker) are being dragged 
 through everywhere, including our plugin interface — this will require a new 
 plugin interface, or we risk massive incompatibilities will all existing 
 plugins.

Right, it will be a lot of work, although the plugin API isn't exactly set in 
stone; we'd like to keep back compatibility for the increasing number of 
out-of-tree plugins, within reason.


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Re: [freenet-dev] [GSoC 2011] Idea : Porting to Apache Struts

[Arne Babenhauserheide]

On Tuesday 19 April 2011 19:35:41 Matthew Toseland wrote:
 Plus, ideally we'd like Freenet to support multiple logins.

That would be cool!

Then we could add real gateways to WoT, creating a decentral, anonymizing (as
long as you can trust your gateway) social network.

…getting even more excited about freenet’s future!

Best wishes,
Arne
--
1w6 sie zu achten,
sie alle zu finden,
in Spiele zu leiten
und sacht zu verbinden.
→ http://1w6.org



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Re: [freenet-dev] FYI: freenet built with Maven

[Ian Clarke]

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 1:22 PM, Matthew Toseland t...@amphibian.dyndns.org
 wrote:

   This is a danger.  If someone wants to compromise us, with Maven they
 just
  need to compromise any one of our dependencies.
 
  We would need to stick to trusted repositories, but switching to Maven
 would
  make development quite a bit easier.

 Agreed. If it is secure, it is worth serious consideration.


We might also want to consider some of the Maven-compatible built tools out
there, including Apache Ivy, Groovy Grape, and Apache Buildr.

I primarily use Maven, but the ludicrously verbose XML configuration files
really get annoying to work with.

(I'd like to kick the butt of whichever moron decided that it would be a
great idea to use a text markup language as a generic human-readable data
representation language)

Ian.

-- 
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Personal blog: http://blog.locut.us/
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Re: [freenet-dev] FYI: freenet built with Maven

[Ian Clarke]

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Ian Clarke i...@locut.us wrote:

 We might also want to consider some of the Maven-compatible built tools out
 there, including Apache Ivy, Groovy Grape, and Apache Buildr.


In fact, since we already use Ant, Apache Ivy is an obvious choice.

Ian.

-- 
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Personal blog: http://blog.locut.us/
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Re: [freenet-dev] FYI: freenet built with Maven

[Ximin Luo]

On 19/04/11 22:48, Ian Clarke wrote:
 On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Ian Clarke i...@locut.us wrote:
 
 We might also want to consider some of the Maven-compatible built tools out
 there, including Apache Ivy, Groovy Grape, and Apache Buildr.
 
 
 In fact, since we already use Ant, Apache Ivy is an obvious choice.
 

sounds interesting, i will have a look through that when i get some time.

 Ian.
 
 
 
 
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