Re: [DDN] Re: Mahatma Gandhi in an Italian Communications Company ad
Bob Hirshon wrote: >Let me jump in on Oliver's behalf, because I share some of his concerns. > >Car companies co-opt rock and roll songs to sell luxury cars, including songs >by deceased artists with anarchist tendencies. The idea is to cloak the >companies with an edgy image that will sell cars. Demagogues drape themselves >in the American flag to make it appear that their ideas are synonymous with >patriotism, and any dissent is un-American. This is all basic marketing. And >it's kind of sickening. > >Using Ghandi and his message to sell telecommunications services is a similar >marketing ploy saying, essentially, "more telecommunications = more world >peace. ITC believes in more telecommunications. Therefore, if you love world >peace, you will love ICT." > > Actually, the advertisement was pretty clear here - 'Imagine'. Therefore, it was showing the potential for such things. Remember that Christopher Reeves advertisement where he was standing? Did that bother you? >Oliver is pointing out two things. One, that the campaign is a rather comical >attempt to co-opt a simple message of world peace for the purposes of coporate >gain. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the next spot showed Mother >Teresa with a laptop. And secondly, that it's probably not true that Ghandi >would have had more influence if he lived in today's world of advanced >telecommuncations. In fact, it's possible that such technologies would cripple >him. Ask Howard Dean. One overly exhuberant "whoop" during a presidential >campaign, beamed instantly to televisions coast to coast with mocking >commentary, was enough to obscure all the substance of his speeches. Time and >space may have helped to solidify Ghandi's message, and make it more >compelling. > >Finally, it doesn't take a cynic to find the message of the Ghandi spot >hollow. There is nothing to prevent a live simulcast of the Dalai Lama making >a speech today. Yet I don't think we'll be seeing Jumbotrons being erected in >Moscow and Times Square for that purpose any time soon. > >Though it would be very cool if I were proved wrong... > >Bob > > > That's the whole point. Wouldn't it be cool? Let's face facts: Nobody else is advertising ICT issues in a meaningful way except corporations who sell *stuff*. The problem here seems to revolve around the fact that a company made the advertisement. Well, OK. But if an NGO made the advertisement, it would be the same thing... You see, ICT is a business in itself. So what I would like to know is - how better would one communicate a vision of the *potential* of ICT? A few people have criticized the advertisement because it's 'corporate'. Well then - who will advertise ICT for us otherwise? If I, personally, had created the advertisement without a corporate logo behind it, would there have been a problem? If I had created this ad, how much money would I have spent - and where would I have gotten the money back? From you? Who? The fact is that all of us are actually advertising for technology companies. Once you advocate the technologies, someone has to make them. Inadvertently, we are a part of creating demand for the supply. We steer it toward our vision as best we can. And I have yet to hear someone say that they *wouldn't* have liked Gandhi to have the ability portrayed in that advertisement. -- Taran Rampersad [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxgazette.com http://www.a42.com http://www.worldchanging.com http://www.knowprose.com http://www.easylum.net "Criticize by creating." — Michelangelo ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Re: Mahatma Gandhi in an Italian Communications Company ad
Well said, Taran. On many matters of importance there is a crucial "opinion divide" that has to be narrowed if we are to walk together. Work together. One of the reasons for bridging the "digital divide" is that as more people everywhere are able to communicate more are able to take part in the opinion divide. In the search for the agreement that precedes acting together. Steve Eskow [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: "Taran Rampersad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Frances Roehm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "The Digital Divide Network discussion group" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [DDN] Re: Mahatma Gandhi in an Italian Communications Company ad Frances Roehm wrote: >Dear Colleagues, > >We've heard quite a bit about our Gandhi. Agree or disagree, this is a powerful message. >Can we talk about ways of bringing our people along, find areas we agree on, and do what >we can to make things happen? Instead of talking about our areas of disagreement. We >have a lot of work to do. > >Thank you, and best regards, > >Fran > >Frances E. Roehm >SkokieNet Librarian > > > Frances, While I agree with you, I must say that it is important that the issues be aired. These issues brought up... though I honestly don't understand them... are part of what we have to deal with. Understanding better what we have to deal with is a remarkable tool. Exploring different perspectives is important, as long as it can be done peacefully. Finding the things we agree on is less important, I think, than finding the things we disagree on. We do have a lot of work to do, and understanding where we disagree seems very important to me. -- Taran Rampersad [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxgazette.com http://www.a42.com http://www.worldchanging.com http://www.knowprose.com http://www.easylum.net "Criticize by creating." — Michelangelo ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message. ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Re: Mahatma Gandhi in an Italian Communications Company ad
Let me jump in on Oliver's behalf, because I share some of his concerns.
Car companies co-opt rock and roll songs to sell luxury cars, including songs
by deceased artists with anarchist tendencies. The idea is to cloak the
companies with an edgy image that will sell cars. Demagogues drape themselves
in the American flag to make it appear that their ideas are synonymous with
patriotism, and any dissent is un-American. This is all basic marketing. And
it's kind of sickening.
Using Ghandi and his message to sell telecommunications services is a similar
marketing ploy saying, essentially, "more telecommunications = more world
peace. ITC believes in more telecommunications. Therefore, if you love world
peace, you will love ICT."
Oliver is pointing out two things. One, that the campaign is a rather comical
attempt to co-opt a simple message of world peace for the purposes of coporate
gain. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the next spot showed Mother
Teresa with a laptop. And secondly, that it's probably not true that Ghandi
would have had more influence if he lived in today's world of advanced
telecommuncations. In fact, it's possible that such technologies would cripple
him. Ask Howard Dean. One overly exhuberant "whoop" during a presidential
campaign, beamed instantly to televisions coast to coast with mocking
commentary, was enough to obscure all the substance of his speeches. Time and
space may have helped to solidify Ghandi's message, and make it more
compelling.
Finally, it doesn't take a cynic to find the message of the Ghandi spot hollow.
There is nothing to prevent a live simulcast of the Dalai Lama making a speech
today. Yet I don't think we'll be seeing Jumbotrons being erected in Moscow and
Times Square for that purpose any time soon.
Though it would be very cool if I were proved wrong...
Bob
>>> Taran Rampersad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 2/8/05 3:47 PM >>>
Oliver Moran wrote:
> Taran Rampersad wrote:
>
> My point, Taran, is that images such as these do not recognise that
> the world is "rooted so deeply in traditions of geopolitical
> economics." It is unrealistic because it portrays ICT as "cutting
> through those traditions".
Forgive me, but I believe a little more 'unrealism' might be the key.
'Bridging the Digital Divide', per se, is also unrealistic.
> It portrays "geopolitical economics" as irrelevant and drives to
> discuss the 'digital' divide in these terms as "blind stabs", as you
> say. All that matters is technology, and access to it.
Funny, I didn't get that. Had they not had Gandhi speaking in Western
settings, I would have agreed with you.
> All that matters is that it could be done with "*present* technology"
> and all the all kinds of reasons why it cannot melt into
> Negroponte-ian bits. It does not provoke questions about the
> ('traditional') inequalities that underly the 'digital' divide. It
> does not present realistic ways in which ICT can contribute to easing
> them. What it does provoke, as one list subscriber pointed out to me
> off-list, is a flattering perception of ICT designed to arouse the
> desire to consume - goodness, not to change anything! - among its
> viewers. Not a very surprising message for an advertisement from a
> telephone company, but one representative, I believe, of the epitome,
> of messages about ICT especially vis a vis the 'digital' divide, and
> therefore dangerous in the context of realistic discussion (or
> inspiration) on the role ICT can play in social/political/economic
> change.
No, it's not surprising at all. But I still don't understand what has
you irked. Business is a fact of life. That business is communicating a
vision of what 'could be' is something I applaud - these things we speak
of, technology and use of technology - cost money. Sure, the Italian
company will make money on the advertisement. I have no problem with
that, because if people become disillusioned with the service they
receive they should 'vote with their feet'.
Further, by communicating such a vision, the bar has been raised for
competition. That should mean lower rates and greater access. It also
means more money going into R&D, and all sorts of other things. The fact
that the people in the main office of the business are probably flying
around in private jets is a completely separate matter.
> Something similar happened in Spain last year following the Madrid
> bombings. The government of the time, with an election eminent and
> their ratings buoyed through their strong stance against ETA (the
> Basque paramilitary group), were adamant to the public that ETA were
> behind the bombings. It was only from outside sources - the internet,
> satellite TV, telephone - that people learnt that Al-Qaeda cells were
> responsible and that their government had lied to them for their own
> gain. I don't see the point of your argument here alongside mine.
> These things happen regardless of technology. (Or in the case of
> Gan
RE: [DDN] Re: Mahatma Gandhi in an Italian Communications Company ad
Dear Colleagues,
We've heard quite a bit about our Gandhi. Agree or disagree, this is a powerful
message.
Can we talk about ways of bringing our people along, find areas we agree on,
and do what
we can to make things happen? Instead of talking about our areas of
disagreement. We
have a lot of work to do.
Thank you, and best regards,
Fran
Frances E. Roehm
SkokieNet Librarian
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Taran Rampersad
Sent: Tue 2/8/2005 2:47 PM
To: The Digital Divide Network discussion group
Subject: Re: [DDN] Re: Mahatma Gandhi in an Italian Communications Company ad
Oliver Moran wrote:
> Taran Rampersad wrote:
>
> My point, Taran, is that images such as these do not recognise that
> the world is "rooted so deeply in traditions of geopolitical
> economics." It is unrealistic because it portrays ICT as "cutting
> through those traditions".
Forgive me, but I believe a little more 'unrealism' might be the key.
'Bridging the Digital Divide', per se, is also unrealistic.
> It portrays "geopolitical economics" as irrelevant and drives to
> discuss the 'digital' divide in these terms as "blind stabs", as you
> say. All that matters is technology, and access to it.
Funny, I didn't get that. Had they not had Gandhi speaking in Western
settings, I would have agreed with you.
> All that matters is that it could be done with "*present* technology"
> and all the all kinds of reasons why it cannot melt into
> Negroponte-ian bits. It does not provoke questions about the
> ('traditional') inequalities that underly the 'digital' divide. It
> does not present realistic ways in which ICT can contribute to easing
> them. What it does provoke, as one list subscriber pointed out to me
> off-list, is a flattering perception of ICT designed to arouse the
> desire to consume - goodness, not to change anything! - among its
> viewers. Not a very surprising message for an advertisement from a
> telephone company, but one representative, I believe, of the epitome,
> of messages about ICT especially vis a vis the 'digital' divide, and
> therefore dangerous in the context of realistic discussion (or
> inspiration) on the role ICT can play in social/political/economic
> change.
No, it's not surprising at all. But I still don't understand what has
you irked. Business is a fact of life. That business is communicating a
vision of what 'could be' is something I applaud - these things we speak
of, technology and use of technology - cost money. Sure, the Italian
company will make money on the advertisement. I have no problem with
that, because if people become disillusioned with the service they
receive they should 'vote with their feet'.
Further, by communicating such a vision, the bar has been raised for
competition. That should mean lower rates and greater access. It also
means more money going into R&D, and all sorts of other things. The fact
that the people in the main office of the business are probably flying
around in private jets is a completely separate matter.
> Something similar happened in Spain last year following the Madrid
> bombings. The government of the time, with an election eminent and
> their ratings buoyed through their strong stance against ETA (the
> Basque paramilitary group), were adamant to the public that ETA were
> behind the bombings. It was only from outside sources - the internet,
> satellite TV, telephone - that people learnt that Al-Qaeda cells were
> responsible and that their government had lied to them for their own
> gain. I don't see the point of your argument here alongside mine.
> These things happen regardless of technology. (Or in the case of
> Gandhi and this advertisement, they do not.) If you don't look at the
> politics you won't understand why.
I'm not arguing with you at all. I am presenting a perspective and
trying to understand your own. Politics in the Digital Divide? Why
certainly. Monkeys practice politics. Really. The point I was making was
that the communication was not available reliably when it came to
Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Your point about Spain is actually very similar.
That politics mars the ability to communicate reliably is no surprise,
and is another hindrance that must be addressed. And that can only be
addressed through more communication *above* the government level - at
the level of the people (in a democracy).
> What I responded to in the Wiki thread was your statement (a slip,
> I've no doubt, I can't believe you meant it - literally at least - as
> it came out):
>
>> "the era preceding Wikis lacked said influence"
>>
>>>
>>> ... all 2 million year
Re: [DDN] Re: Mahatma Gandhi in an Italian Communications Company ad
Frances Roehm wrote: >Dear Colleagues, > >We've heard quite a bit about our Gandhi. Agree or disagree, this is a >powerful message. >Can we talk about ways of bringing our people along, find areas we agree on, >and do what >we can to make things happen? Instead of talking about our areas of >disagreement. We >have a lot of work to do. > >Thank you, and best regards, > >Fran > >Frances E. Roehm >SkokieNet Librarian > > > Frances, While I agree with you, I must say that it is important that the issues be aired. These issues brought up... though I honestly don't understand them... are part of what we have to deal with. Understanding better what we have to deal with is a remarkable tool. Exploring different perspectives is important, as long as it can be done peacefully. Finding the things we agree on is less important, I think, than finding the things we disagree on. We do have a lot of work to do, and understanding where we disagree seems very important to me. -- Taran Rampersad [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxgazette.com http://www.a42.com http://www.worldchanging.com http://www.knowprose.com http://www.easylum.net "Criticize by creating." — Michelangelo ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Re: Mahatma Gandhi in an Italian Communications Company ad
Oliver Moran wrote:
> Taran Rampersad wrote:
>
> My point, Taran, is that images such as these do not recognise that
> the world is "rooted so deeply in traditions of geopolitical
> economics." It is unrealistic because it portrays ICT as "cutting
> through those traditions".
Forgive me, but I believe a little more 'unrealism' might be the key.
'Bridging the Digital Divide', per se, is also unrealistic.
> It portrays "geopolitical economics" as irrelevant and drives to
> discuss the 'digital' divide in these terms as "blind stabs", as you
> say. All that matters is technology, and access to it.
Funny, I didn't get that. Had they not had Gandhi speaking in Western
settings, I would have agreed with you.
> All that matters is that it could be done with "*present* technology"
> and all the all kinds of reasons why it cannot melt into
> Negroponte-ian bits. It does not provoke questions about the
> ('traditional') inequalities that underly the 'digital' divide. It
> does not present realistic ways in which ICT can contribute to easing
> them. What it does provoke, as one list subscriber pointed out to me
> off-list, is a flattering perception of ICT designed to arouse the
> desire to consume - goodness, not to change anything! - among its
> viewers. Not a very surprising message for an advertisement from a
> telephone company, but one representative, I believe, of the epitome,
> of messages about ICT especially vis a vis the 'digital' divide, and
> therefore dangerous in the context of realistic discussion (or
> inspiration) on the role ICT can play in social/political/economic
> change.
No, it's not surprising at all. But I still don't understand what has
you irked. Business is a fact of life. That business is communicating a
vision of what 'could be' is something I applaud - these things we speak
of, technology and use of technology - cost money. Sure, the Italian
company will make money on the advertisement. I have no problem with
that, because if people become disillusioned with the service they
receive they should 'vote with their feet'.
Further, by communicating such a vision, the bar has been raised for
competition. That should mean lower rates and greater access. It also
means more money going into R&D, and all sorts of other things. The fact
that the people in the main office of the business are probably flying
around in private jets is a completely separate matter.
> Something similar happened in Spain last year following the Madrid
> bombings. The government of the time, with an election eminent and
> their ratings buoyed through their strong stance against ETA (the
> Basque paramilitary group), were adamant to the public that ETA were
> behind the bombings. It was only from outside sources - the internet,
> satellite TV, telephone - that people learnt that Al-Qaeda cells were
> responsible and that their government had lied to them for their own
> gain. I don't see the point of your argument here alongside mine.
> These things happen regardless of technology. (Or in the case of
> Gandhi and this advertisement, they do not.) If you don't look at the
> politics you won't understand why.
I'm not arguing with you at all. I am presenting a perspective and
trying to understand your own. Politics in the Digital Divide? Why
certainly. Monkeys practice politics. Really. The point I was making was
that the communication was not available reliably when it came to
Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Your point about Spain is actually very similar.
That politics mars the ability to communicate reliably is no surprise,
and is another hindrance that must be addressed. And that can only be
addressed through more communication *above* the government level - at
the level of the people (in a democracy).
> What I responded to in the Wiki thread was your statement (a slip,
> I've no doubt, I can't believe you meant it - literally at least - as
> it came out):
>
>> "the era preceding Wikis lacked said influence"
>>
>>>
>>> ... all 2 million years of them, Taran? I'm picking on this point
>>> not just
>>> to be a smart arse but to highlight what I believe Alfref meant by,
>>> "Every
>>> new idea is seen by some as a solution."
>>
Again, you took the quote out of context. The era preceding Wikis lacked
the influence of Wikis. That is VERY clear. If this is a point of
contention, please let me know - I'll repost the relevant quote within
context. Or you could look back in the archives.
> Please note my inclusion of Alfred's sentiment. Describing the
> relationship of the technological to the societal as "some things
> fail, some things do not fail" diminishes the role that technology
> plays in human society just as it diminishes human society as relevant
> to understanding the use/purpose of any technology.
We celebrate the stone axe, but the failures leading up to the stone axe
were the innovative steps necessary to get there. To omit those steps,
or think that they can be omitted, is something that is s
Re: [DDN] Re: Mahatma Gandhi in an Italian Communications Company ad
At 3:39 PM + 2/8/05, Oliver Moran wrote: Taran, I was born in the rural area, I work in the "ghetto", this advertisement is irrelevant to both and a distraction from the real needs of those places and the real people who live their real lives there. It is a fiction, its a presentation dangerous and counterproductive. What it sells is an ideal that neither presents the reality of exclusion nor inequality nor realistic solutions to them. This is what is wrong about the advertisement and what I sensed in the snippet I quoted from your reply to the Wiki thread. The view always depends on where one stands. From one part of where I stand -pretty much a peacnik - the Ghandi clip caused me to think what might have happened had Ghandi had the tools available to him today that we have now? Would his message have caught sufficiently to reduce the $500 billion the American government spends annually on "defense"? Another part of my view was from the cynical lens - "ya, shurrr, let's all go out and buy some new gadgets so we don't miss the latest and greatestthat's just what the world needs more of...more toys, more goodies. barf barf." Another part of my view was my involvement in the Ben Franklin Tercentenary, 11 months from now...If our Ben 300 guys could create something like the Ghandi clip, would it help us promote the virtues of Ben Franklin? How could it help us make the Tercentenary the "largest, longest running birthday party in history?" And the last part of my viewpoint was, hopefully, somewhat rational - "Admit it, John, visual images have huge impact. Whether the product you are selling is improving access to education or reducing the divide or increasing sales of tennis shoes, or the merits of Ben Franklin -- video - and the means to distribute same widely - is a necessary part of your arsenal." Even inside a single pair of shoes, the view changes depending on which image one calls to mind. This has been an interesting discussion. Thank for all the contributions. ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Re: Mahatma Gandhi in an Italian Communications Company ad
Taran Rampersad wrote:
I don't see what was portrayed in
the advertisement as unrealistic - I see it as what could be with the
*present* technology and yet is not available because of all sorts of
things. That gets us into a WSIS discussion, perhaps even a focal WGIG
discussion. But all these acronyms serve as different blind stabs at a
solution that many of us see, but cannot enact in a world rooted so
deeply in traditions of geopolitical economics. An advertisement that
portrays a cutting through those traditions to the very core - THAT is
worthwhile.
My point, Taran, is that images such as these do not recognise that the
world is "rooted so deeply in traditions of geopolitical economics." It
is unrealistic because it portrays ICT as "cutting through those
traditions". It portrays "geopolitical economics" as irrelevant and
drives to discuss the 'digital' divide in these terms as "blind stabs",
as you say. All that matters is technology, and access to it. All that
matters is that it could be done with "*present* technology" and all the
all kinds of reasons why it cannot melt into Negroponte-ian bits. It
does not provoke questions about the ('traditional') inequalities that
underly the 'digital' divide. It does not present realistic ways in
which ICT can contribute to easing them. What it does provoke, as one
list subscriber pointed out to me off-list, is a flattering perception
of ICT designed to arouse the desire to consume - goodness, not to
change anything! - among its viewers. Not a very surprising message for
an advertisement from a telephone company, but one representative, I
believe, of the epitome, of messages about ICT especially vis a vis the
'digital' divide, and therefore dangerous in the context of realistic
discussion (or inspiration) on the role ICT can play in
social/political/economic change.
An interesting sidenote that is somewhat interesting to consider: When
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed, the Japanese did not know. They
heard rumours which were unconfirmed. They found out from the
announcement of the United States... how perfectly odd. Imagine someone
in another country telling you that part of your country, for all
intents and purposes, ceased to exist...
Something similar happened in Spain last year following the Madrid
bombings. The government of the time, with an election eminent and
their ratings buoyed through their strong stance against ETA (the Basque
paramilitary group), were adamant to the public that ETA were behind the
bombings. It was only from outside sources - the internet, satellite
TV, telephone - that people learnt that Al-Qaeda cells were responsible
and that their government had lied to them for their own gain. I don't
see the point of your argument here alongside mine. These things happen
regardless of technology. (Or in the case of Gandhi and this
advertisement, they do not.) If you don't look at the politics you
won't understand why.
Presenting every new thing as a sapling that only needs encouragement
to blosom and sprout change for the better - as Taran did in his
alegorical reply to my post on that matter - is to treat all things
equally and thus anihilate the portential of everything. The way we
imagine technology needs to be [based on] realistic,
socially-grounded terms and we [need to] imagine realistic, socially-grounded
needs, less as technological deficits on the part of those who are
exploited and impoverished. Advertisments such as these do not help
matters and they abound.
Actually, I think you missed the point of the alegorical reply. Some
things fail, some things do not fail - how that annihalates the
potential of everything escapes me, as I am certain that the point I was
making was that everything has potential and that dismissing that
potential simply because something is new is not only annihalating the
potential of the object of discussion - it's a annihalation of the
potential of the original structure, and is therefore self defeating.
How you mixed the two subjects of the advertisement and the Wikis is
quite interesting, and again I wonder what part of the conversation I am
missing. There was never a line drawn between the two aside from the
fact that I responded to both threads, as did you.
I drew a line between the two, Taran. The point in my reply to both
were similar. What I responded to in the Wiki thread was your statement
(a slip, I've no doubt, I can't believe you meant it - literally at
least - as it came out):
"the era preceding Wikis lacked said influence"
... all 2 million years of them, Taran? I'm picking on this point not just
to be a smart arse but to highlight what I believe Alfref meant by, "Every
new idea is seen by some as a solution."
Please note my inclusion of Alfred's sentiment. Describing the
relationship of the technological to the societal as "some things fail,
some things do not fail" diminishes the role that technology plays in
human soci
Re: [DDN] Re: Mahatma Gandhi in an Italian Communications Company ad
Oliver Moran wrote: > Taran and Ed, > > My issue is not that the video is commerical or fanciful. Rather, in > the context of the 'digital divide', my point is that videos like this > represent an unrealistic vision of the value of ICT for social > change. Visions are essential to the future and there is nothing > inherently wrong with unrealistic visions, however, so many visions of > ICT represent fanciful drawings of economic and social relations that > the boundry between our ability to imagine what practical roles ICT > can play in societal change and what are fanciful and unrealistic > notions is unknown - where dream ends and ambition begins is collapsed > and unknowable under a deluge of fancy. This is what is dangerous > about videos like this and what makes practical and useful > applications of ICT for change - whatever change - more difficult. > That one video is fanciful is no great issue, but en masse only the > fanciful is encouraged. Forgive me, but I must regretfully tell you that many past 'unrealistic visions' are realities. And I'll also add that it's very likely that there will always be a Digital Divide, simply because some people end up with more and some people end up with less. Decreasing the Digital Divide, though, is certainly possible. I don't see what was portrayed in the advertisement as unrealistic - I see it as what could be with the *present* technology and yet is not available because of all sorts of things. That gets us into a WSIS discussion, perhaps even a focal WGIG discussion. But all these acronyms serve as different blind stabs at a solution that many of us see, but cannot enact in a world rooted so deeply in traditions of geopolitical economics. An advertisement that portrays a cutting through those traditions to the very core - THAT is worthwhile. An interesting sidenote that is somewhat interesting to consider: When Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed, the Japanese did not know. They heard rumours which were unconfirmed. They found out from the announcement of the United States... how perfectly odd. Imagine someone in another country telling you that part of your country, for all intents and purposes, ceased to exist... > What telephone company would allow Ghandi, a critic of modernity and > industrialism - Taran, I really don't know if he would keep a blog! Neither do I. But he never had the option... > - speak genuinly about global imbalances in perception of power and > knowlege through practices of technological hegemony, as Ghandi > 'speaks' about in this advertisment? But then the message of the iis > not to question global imbalances, it is to encourage it, however you > interpret it - as a commercial, as a vision of ICT, as a vision of the > 'digital divide', as a vision for change, as a vision of the future. Well, let's take the advertisement in context. This Italian company was communicating a vision. I was challenged in finding the differences between that vision and the vision of the people who are involved in trying to decrease the Digital Divide. What I found was most powerful about the ad was that a message from one of the great people in history reached across the globe. I suppose after dealing electronically with the late tsunami disaster, that hits a really powerful note within me. I do not claim objectivity here; I claim humanity in an unashamed and unabashed manner. Objectivity in all it's splendour can be true torture; it's a shame that regardless of how hard we try, we are never 100% objective. Any one thing can be described any number of ways - this is why bookstores are littered with novels with the same plots with the character's names changed to protect our psyche from realizing that we have read it before. And yet, of all these stories, certain tellings stand out - not because they are objective! They stand out and are read because they are *interesting*. And that is what attends the masses, not the 'rational objective' perspectives obtained from a limited and exclusive group of people. Our society is based on oral tradition; written tradition came along and then video; now we have electronic tradition. I wonder if in 50 years someone will find my USB key and be able to use it. > Presenting every new thing as a sapling that only needs encouragement > to blosom and sprout change for the better - as Taran did in his > alegorical reply to my post on that matter - is to treat all things > equally and thus anihilate the portential of everything. The way we > imagine technology needs to be grounded in realistic, > socially-grounded terms and we imagine realistic, socially-grounded > needs, less as technological deficits on the part of those who are > exploited and impoverished. Advertisments such as these do not help > matters and they abound. Actually, I think you missed the point of the alegorical reply. Some things fail, some things do not fail - how that annihalates the potential of everything escapes me, as I am certain t
Re: [DDN] Re: Mahatma Gandhi in an Italian Communications Company ad
Taran and Ed, My issue is not that the video is commerical or fanciful. Rather, in the context of the 'digital divide', my point is that videos like this represent an unrealistic vision of the value of ICT for social change. Visions are essential to the future and there is nothing inherently wrong with unrealistic visions, however, so many visions of ICT represent fanciful drawings of economic and social relations that the boundry between our ability to imagine what practical roles ICT can play in societal change and what are fanciful and unrealistic notions is unknown - where dream ends and ambition begins is collapsed and unknowable under a deluge of fancy. This is what is dangerous about videos like this and what makes practical and useful applications of ICT for change - whatever change - more difficult. That one video is fanciful is no great issue, but en masse only the fanciful is encouraged. What telephone company would allow Ghandi, a critic of modernity and industrialism - Taran, I really don't know if he would keep a blog! - speak genuinly about global imbalances in perception of power and knowlege through practices of technological hegemony, as Ghandi 'speaks' about in this advertisment? But then the message of the iis not to question global imbalances, it is to encourage it, however you interpret it - as a commercial, as a vision of ICT, as a vision of the 'digital divide', as a vision for change, as a vision of the future. This is similar in reason to why I made by other reply to Taran re: the wiki project. To be honest, I'm pretty much disinterested in the actualities of that work. Wiki's can be very useful workspaces just as much as they can be totally unsuitable for any particular job. I don't know anything about the particular project that was mentioned, so I'm really not in any position to comment on it. What I did commented on was Taran's responce to Alfred (my post is below): > "the era preceding Wikis lacked said influence" > > ... all 2 million years of them, Taran? I'm picking on this point not just > to be a smart arse but to highlight what I believe Alfref meant by, "Every > new idea is seen by some as a solution." Presenting every new thing as a sapling that only needs encouragement to blosom and sprout change for the better - as Taran did in his alegorical reply to my post on that matter - is to treat all things equally and thus anihilate the portential of everything. The way we imagine technology needs to be grounded in realistic, socially-grounded terms and we imagine realistic, socially-grounded needs, less as technological deficits on the part of those who are exploited and impoverished. Advertisments such as these do not help matters and they abound. Oliver Moran Digital Media Centre Dublin Institute of Technology Ireland Taran Rampersad wrote: Oliver Moran wrote: Oh, my goodness! If this is why anyone believes that Gandhi's struggle was met with resistance and brutality by colonialism, you're sadly missing the point of human politics and the nature of society, communication and history. *confused look* - huh? Where did this come from? Hats off the the guys at Telecom Italia for pulling our heart strings but while communication may be key to ending global inequity, communication requires that people listen, understand and are willing to accommodate, not that it occurs on one media or another. This is far more complex that any circumstance of technology. Why should crowds fill Red Square, Times Square, tune-in in Roman plazas, meeting rooms at Whitehall, villages in rural Asia and southern Africa just because of ICT? Did they not have newspapers, radio and newsreels at the time of Gandhi but was he still not considered a kin to a terrorist - no matter how much, in hindsight, that we would all plea that he was a man of non-violence? How many of you have visited the Al Jazeera website lately? You know, I take issue with Gandhi ever being viewed as a terrorist. There was a man who strictly advocated non-violence, who never lifted his hand and helped define 20th century *peaceful* protest. To even consider that Gandhi was ever considered a terrorist is something that I would find insulting if I didn't decide to forego insult. He most definitely was considered a pain in the posterior to quite a few, including some of his own countrymen, but equating him to a *terrorist* is simply ridiculous. As far as Al Jazeera and so on - I won't pretend to understand the varying levels of abstraction in the media where West meets Middle East. But I would most certainly love to read Gandhi's weblog, if he had one. Imagining the 'digital' divide solely as a matter of access to technology is to poorly estimate the importance of socio-political and economic relations and to incredibly misrepresent the significance of ICT. Media verbiage of this kind are what mask real causes of societal inequity and stints discussion of how to us
Re: [DDN] Re: Mahatma Gandhi in an Italian Communications Company ad
There are a lot of messages sent to the youth through media. This was an ad. What to me was so interesting about this group is that most of us, don't know how to spell his name, don't reall know his work. We have lots of ways of reacting to his philosophy, and how he changed history. Did we think that of the use of technology as media, how this image started a conversation that is still going on. How many of us would have thought of him at all , without the visual prompt. Bonnie Bracey bbracey at aol.com ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Re: Mahatma Gandhi in an Italian Communications Company ad
Lisa Smith wrote: >I had similar misgivings about this piece. It does seem a bit >to simple, which is probably why it's so compelling. > > It is. And it is. >I also feel it turns Gandhi into a commodity to be used by >this telecom company, Telecom Italia. I don't think >they made it to promote awareness of the digital divide, either >I think they made it to sell dsl subscriptions. > > That's obvious, but the reasoning implied for selling the service is one that relates to the Digital Divide, I think. >If I'm wrong on this I would like to know but I don't >like the idea that after their death we can turn important >people into unwitting spokesman for whatever. > > It happens anyway. That's what most history books do - turn important people into unwitting spokespeople for whatever. That said, I don't think Gandhi would have approved of the commercial use of his words and likeness in such an advertisement, and especially the changing of his words. But the message that Gandhi was sending in the original speech was not too different from the one that is in the advertisement. What's funny here is the effect of the advertisement. I've watched that advertisement at least 30 times so far, and I just realized that I cannot name the company that is being advertised. That's probably why advertisements of this caliber rarely make it to a viewing audience; they are too effective at grabbing attention and do so at the cost of the company being advertised. That said... Can you imagine a world where Gandhi could have had a weblog, a webcam, perhaps a few podcasts? In the original speech, Gandhi speaks of the great men that came from Asia, and ended up becoming one of them. And the great men and women of our time... and the future... will have these tools. To balance it, so will the lesser men and women. -- Taran Rampersad [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxgazette.com http://www.a42.com http://www.worldchanging.com http://www.knowprose.com http://www.easylum.net "Criticize by creating." — Michelangelo ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Re: Mahatma Gandhi in an Italian Communications Company ad
In a message dated 2/2/05 4:06:05 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > Unfortunately, the ability to spread compelling messages quickly all > over the world has two sides. > I guess what I thought is how few people probably know who the real Mahatma Gandhi was, and about him except in vignettes. I took my kids to see the movie, and at the time people thought it was scandalous, .. I am lucky, I lived in India, or should say I visited 24 cities in India as a part of a Fulbright program. It was a life changing experience. We wrote curriculum and studied the whole time. Cultural geography. Bonnie Bracey bbracey @ aol com ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Re: Mahatma Gandhi in an Italian Communications Company ad
Oliver Moran wrote: >Oh, my goodness! If this is why anyone believes that Gandhi's struggle was >met with resistance and brutality by colonialism, you're sadly missing the >point of human politics and the nature of society, communication and >history. > > *confused look* - huh? Where did this come from? >Hats off the the guys at Telecom Italia for pulling our heart strings but >while communication may be key to ending global inequity, communication >requires that people listen, understand and are willing to accommodate, not >that it occurs on one media or another. This is far more complex that any >circumstance of technology. Why should crowds fill Red Square, Times Square, >tune-in in Roman plazas, meeting rooms at Whitehall, villages in rural Asia >and southern Africa just because of ICT? Did they not have newspapers, radio >and newsreels at the time of Gandhi but was he still not considered a kin to >a terrorist - no matter how much, in hindsight, that we would all plea that >he was a man of non-violence? How many of you have visited the Al Jazeera >website lately? > > You know, I take issue with Gandhi ever being viewed as a terrorist. There was a man who strictly advocated non-violence, who never lifted his hand and helped define 20th century *peaceful* protest. To even consider that Gandhi was ever considered a terrorist is something that I would find insulting if I didn't decide to forego insult. He most definitely was considered a pain in the posterior to quite a few, including some of his own countrymen, but equating him to a *terrorist* is simply ridiculous. As far as Al Jazeera and so on - I won't pretend to understand the varying levels of abstraction in the media where West meets Middle East. But I would most certainly love to read Gandhi's weblog, if he had one. >Imagining the 'digital' divide solely as a matter of access to technology is >to poorly estimate the importance of socio-political and economic relations >and to incredibly misrepresent the significance of ICT. Media verbiage of >this kind are what mask real causes of societal inequity and stints >discussion of how to use ICT meaningfully for social change. > > *confused look* - huh? Where did this come from? Honestly, I feel like I'm missing a really big part of the conversation here. Nobody here has said anything that you appear to be responding to; could you please clarify? What was this all in response to? Oddly enough, Gandhi's speech was taken slightly out of context for the purpose of the advertisement. The original speech is here: http://www.gandhiserve.org/information/listen_to_gandhi/lec_2_iarc/lec_2_iarc.html -- Taran Rampersad [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxgazette.com http://www.a42.com http://www.worldchanging.com http://www.knowprose.com http://www.easylum.net "Criticize by creating." — Michelangelo ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Re: Mahatma Gandhi in an Italian Communications Company ad
One could also imagine the same exact ad, but with the image of someone not so nice as Ghandi's-- a slight change that would turn the spot from uplifting to chilling. Unfortunately, the ability to spread compelling messages quickly all over the world has two sides. I still like the ad, though. Bob Hirshon American Association for the Advancement of Science [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
RE: [DDN] Re: Mahatma Gandhi in an Italian Communications Company ad
I had similar misgivings about this piece. It does seem a bit to simple, which is probably why it's so compelling. I also feel it turns Gandhi into a commodity to be used by this telecom company, Telecom Italia. I don't think they made it to promote awareness of the digital divide, either I think they made it to sell dsl subscriptions. If I'm wrong on this I would like to know but I don't like the idea that after their death we can turn important people into unwitting spokesman for whatever. Lisa Smith IT and Office Manager American Humanist Association 1777 T Street, NW, Washington, DC 20009-7125 202-238-9088 Fax 238-9003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Oliver Moran Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 12:07 PM To: The Digital Divide Network discussion group Subject: Re: [DDN] Re: Mahatma Gandhi in an Italian Communications Company ad Oh, my goodness! If this is why anyone believes that Gandhi's struggle was met with resistance and brutality by colonialism, you're sadly missing the point of human politics and the nature of society, communication and history. Hats off the the guys at Telecom Italia for pulling our heart strings but while communication may be key to ending global inequity, communication requires that people listen, understand and are willing to accommodate, not that it occurs on one media or another. This is far more complex that any circumstance of technology. Why should crowds fill Red Square, Times Square, tune-in in Roman plazas, meeting rooms at Whitehall, villages in rural Asia and southern Africa just because of ICT? Did they not have newspapers, radio and newsreels at the time of Gandhi but was he still not considered a kin to a terrorist - no matter how much, in hindsight, that we would all plea that he was a man of non-violence? How many of you have visited the Al Jazeera website lately? Imagining the 'digital' divide solely as a matter of access to technology is to poorly estimate the importance of socio-political and economic relations and to incredibly misrepresent the significance of ICT. Media verbiage of this kind are what mask real causes of societal inequity and stints discussion of how to use ICT meaningfully for social change. Oliver Moran Digital Media Centre Dublin Institute of Technology Ireland Oliver (at) sony-youth.com > >>I think that this is a pretty cool way of looking at why the Digital > >>Divide should be bridged. Flash required, but... it's worth it. And I > >>hate flash. But this is really cool, imaginative... and thought provoking. > >> > >>Rohit Gupta wrote: > >> > >>>Gandhi rocks gain... > >>> > >>>http://www.epica-awards.com/assets/epica/2004/winners/film/flv/11071.htm > >>> > >>> > > > >Folks: > > > >Taran is on the money here. For all the reasons he states. Take a peek. > > > >Don Samuelson -- This message has been scanned for content and viruses by the DIT Information Services MailScanner Service, and is believed to be clean. http://www.dit.ie ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message. ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Re: Mahatma Gandhi in an Italian Communications Company ad
Oh, my goodness! If this is why anyone believes that Gandhi's struggle was met with resistance and brutality by colonialism, you're sadly missing the point of human politics and the nature of society, communication and history. Hats off the the guys at Telecom Italia for pulling our heart strings but while communication may be key to ending global inequity, communication requires that people listen, understand and are willing to accommodate, not that it occurs on one media or another. This is far more complex that any circumstance of technology. Why should crowds fill Red Square, Times Square, tune-in in Roman plazas, meeting rooms at Whitehall, villages in rural Asia and southern Africa just because of ICT? Did they not have newspapers, radio and newsreels at the time of Gandhi but was he still not considered a kin to a terrorist - no matter how much, in hindsight, that we would all plea that he was a man of non-violence? How many of you have visited the Al Jazeera website lately? Imagining the 'digital' divide solely as a matter of access to technology is to poorly estimate the importance of socio-political and economic relations and to incredibly misrepresent the significance of ICT. Media verbiage of this kind are what mask real causes of societal inequity and stints discussion of how to use ICT meaningfully for social change. Oliver Moran Digital Media Centre Dublin Institute of Technology Ireland Oliver (at) sony-youth.com > >>I think that this is a pretty cool way of looking at why the Digital > >>Divide should be bridged. Flash required, but... it's worth it. And I > >>hate flash. But this is really cool, imaginative... and thought provoking. > >> > >>Rohit Gupta wrote: > >> > >>>Gandhi rocks gain... > >>> > >>>http://www.epica-awards.com/assets/epica/2004/winners/film/flv/11071.htm > >>> > >>> > > > >Folks: > > > >Taran is on the money here. For all the reasons he states. Take a peek. > > > >Don Samuelson -- This message has been scanned for content and viruses by the DIT Information Services MailScanner Service, and is believed to be clean. http://www.dit.ie ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Re: Mahatma Gandhi in an Italian Communications Company ad
This is stunningly powerful. Tons of thanks to whomever brought it to our attention and to the visionaries who created it. Yours sincerely, Jim Lerman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/31/05 10:25:21 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think that this is a pretty cool way of looking at why the Digital Divide should be bridged. Flash required, but... it's worth it. And I hate flash. But this is really cool, imaginative... and thought provoking. Rohit Gupta wrote: Gandhi rocks gain... http://www.epica-awards.com/assets/epica/2004/winners/film/flv/11071.htm Folks: Taran is on the money here. For all the reasons he states. Take a peek. Don Samuelson ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message. ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Re: Mahatma Gandhi in an Italian Communications Company ad
In a message dated 1/31/05 10:25:21 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I think that this is a pretty cool way of looking at why the Digital > Divide should be bridged. Flash required, but... it's worth it. And I > hate flash. But this is really cool, imaginative... and thought provoking. > > Rohit Gupta wrote: > > >Gandhi rocks gain... > > > >http://www.epica-awards.com/assets/epica/2004/winners/film/flv/11071.htm > Folks: Taran is on the money here. For all the reasons he states. Take a peek. Don Samuelson ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
[DDN] Re: Mahatma Gandhi in an Italian Communications Company ad
I think that this is a pretty cool way of looking at why the Digital Divide should be bridged. Flash required, but... it's worth it. And I hate flash. But this is really cool, imaginative... and thought provoking. Rohit Gupta wrote: >Gandhi rocks gain... > >http://www.epica-awards.com/assets/epica/2004/winners/film/flv/11071.htm > > > -- Taran Rampersad [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxgazette.com http://www.a42.com http://www.worldchanging.com http://www.knowprose.com http://www.easylum.net "Criticize by creating." — Michelangelo ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
