Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
On 2011-06-07 22:45, Timon Gehr wrote: Fabian wrote: - There are no maintained GUI libraries I don't know about this but I think QtD and DWT are still being maintained? DWT is still maintained, although very slowly. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
On 2011-06-07 23:02, Fabian wrote: The community does not grow if people stay away because it is small. Thank you for your answer. - You've got a big point! I don't know about this but I think QtD and DWT are still being maintained? I can't see any changes on this web page: http://www.dsource.org/projects/dwt/wiki There's currently no reason to update the wiki, please see http://hg.dsource.org/projects/dwt2 for changelog. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
On 2011-06-07 23:33, Jonathan M Davis wrote: On 2011-06-07 14:02, Fabian wrote: The community does not grow if people stay away because it is small. Thank you for your answer. - You've got a big point! I don't know about this but I think QtD and DWT are still being maintained? I can't see any changes on this web page: http://www.dsource.org/projects/dwt/wiki That's too bad :-( http://hg.dsource.org/projects/dwt2 DWT was recently ported to D2. Also, QtD is definitely under active development. But I'm sure that there's still plenty of work to be done. - Jonathan M Davis There is a lot of work to be done (for DWT) : * Fixing bugs * Finish porting the Mac version * Update to later versions of SWT * Port 64bit versions -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
Too late! :P I have been inspired by the simplicity of D and DGui. Never happened before with earlier C++ experiments... my loss! Jose Armando Garcia wrote in message news:mailman.906.1308016642.14074.digitalmars-d-le...@puremagic.com... On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 6:33 AM, Lloyd Dupont ld-rem...@galador.net wrote: Let's learn together then! :P http://galador.net/codeblog/?tag=/D While my blog post are only about setting up the environment so far.. I have delved in the code for 2 weeks now! (Although I had some day off (work and programing) in Darwin) I'm right into it now, should have a new blog post soon! About programing this time! My verdict: it's frustrating yes. But D has a couple of advantages and 2 that you might like: - D has event / delegate, just like C# (and unlike C++, or maybe C++ has them, (it has method pointer, right!?) but it's not taken advantage of!) - the above point is probably what makes the C++ GUI so... difficult. Whereas I found a GUI API for D just like WinForm! (DGui!) Boost, GTK+ and QT have signals. E.g. http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_46_1/doc/html/signals.html
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
Let's learn together then! :P http://galador.net/codeblog/?tag=/D While my blog post are only about setting up the environment so far.. I have delved in the code for 2 weeks now! (Although I had some day off (work and programing) in Darwin) I'm right into it now, should have a new blog post soon! About programing this time! My verdict: it's frustrating yes. But D has a couple of advantages and 2 that you might like: - D has event / delegate, just like C# (and unlike C++, or maybe C++ has them, (it has method pointer, right!?) but it's not taken advantage of!) - the above point is probably what makes the C++ GUI so... difficult. Whereas I found a GUI API for D just like WinForm! (DGui!) In short summary I found these cool things: VisualD 0.3.24 (plugin for programing from Visual Studio) http://www.dsource.org/projects/visuald VisualD NOTE: (system tweaks)(required) : edit sc.ini http://www.dsource.org/projects/visuald/wiki/KnownIssues#Librarysearchpathnotpassedtolinker DGui 02052011 (WinForm like API) http://code.google.com/p/dgui/ Doost (r88) (serialization) http://www.dsource.org/projects/doost Windows API r371 http://dsource.org/projects/bindings/wiki/WindowsApi Fabian wrote in message news:islvgf$1b61$1...@digitalmars.com... Dear D Community, is it reasonable to learn D? I've found a lot of good points for D but I've found a lot of negative points too. I believe that I needn't to list all the point for D but I want to give a few examples against learning D I've read in some German and English boards: - The D compiler has only bad code optimization - There are no maintained GUI libraries - The development of the compiler is very slow - Only a small community = no real German community So I ask you - Is it reasonable to learn D? I'm looking forward to your answers. Greetings Fabian PS: If you want to contact me you are allowed to write an Email to me. contact-...@freemail.de
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 6:33 AM, Lloyd Dupont ld-rem...@galador.net wrote: Let's learn together then! :P http://galador.net/codeblog/?tag=/D While my blog post are only about setting up the environment so far.. I have delved in the code for 2 weeks now! (Although I had some day off (work and programing) in Darwin) I'm right into it now, should have a new blog post soon! About programing this time! My verdict: it's frustrating yes. But D has a couple of advantages and 2 that you might like: - D has event / delegate, just like C# (and unlike C++, or maybe C++ has them, (it has method pointer, right!?) but it's not taken advantage of!) - the above point is probably what makes the C++ GUI so... difficult. Whereas I found a GUI API for D just like WinForm! (DGui!) Boost, GTK+ and QT have signals. E.g. http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_46_1/doc/html/signals.html
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
Trass3r Wrote: http://h3.gd/code/nucleus/ I lol'd at the suggestion to upgrade my FF4 to a modern HTML5-compliant browser. ^^ No problems with Opera. I mean, it's ok that it doesn't work, it's just diagnostic message is wrong.
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
Oh - yeah. Thank you - English can be so easy :D
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
On Wed, 08 Jun 2011 07:11:03 -0400, Fabian contact-...@freenet.de wrote: Calling all: Thank you. I want to use Tango because a friend has lent me a book about learning D and using the Tango Software Library. So I'm forced to use D 1.x, aren't I? At the moment, yes. I believe there are ports to D2 in the works. At the moment I just want to learn D - I'm not going to code any big project with D next time so I think DMD is OK at the beginning. But I'm no coding newbie - I've already experiences with Delphi and I'm able to find a solution (also object orientated) for more or less complicated problems. (Network, Graphics, Threading, ...). This is a good way to start. But if you are planning on using Tango, why not use LDC (assuming you are on Linux)? LDC is built *expecting* Tango to be the runtime library, whereas DMD expects phobos to be the runtime (Tango is designed to work with both). Just remember if you need help, you can ask any questions here! D's community is usually very eager to help out newbies. But if I want to start a bigger project like a small game (Jump 'n' Run, ...) I would be very glad to know that my compiler has got a good code optimization. Code optimization is likely not going to be an issue, DMD and LDC both are based on C++ compilers, so they have a lot of the same optimizations. I'd worry more about the GC for performance. -Steve
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
Hi I'm using D on Windows so I'm not able to use LDC. But I believe DMD should be a good alternative too. If the garbage collection makes trouble I can disable it - or? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/472133/turning-off-the-d-garbage-collector By the way: I've read that Digital Mars C++ compiler has got a bad code optimization. Is that true? In comparison with the Microsoft Visual Studio compiler. Greetings Fabian
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
Fabian wrote: By the way: I've read that Digital Mars C++ compiler has got a bad code optimization. Is that true? In general, no. There's some benchmarks where it loses, but there's also some that win. Overall, it isn't as good at optimizing as gcc and visual studio, but it still isn't bad. (The two places where it does the worst from what I've seen is floating point, which is bad, and inlining, which is ok but not great. Everything else it does pretty well.)
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
Okay - Thank you. Greetings Fab
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
Is D1.x still supported and under development?
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
Is D1.x still supported and under development? Yes, though it almost never gets new features anymore, just bug fixes about once a month. See the changelog here: http://www.digitalmars.com/d/1.0/changelog.html
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
Trass3r Wrote: http://h3.gd/code/nucleus/ I lol'd at the suggestion to upgrade my FF4 to a modern HTML5-compliant browser.
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
http://h3.gd/code/nucleus/ I lol'd at the suggestion to upgrade my FF4 to a modern HTML5-compliant browser. ^^ No problems with Opera.
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
No problem with FF3. You should upgrade FF4 to FF3 I guess. :P
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
Trass3r wrote: - The D compiler has only bad code optimization Yep, but there is LDC and GDC which use LLVM and GCC as backends respectively. - There are no maintained GUI libraries I wouldn't agree with that. Some people are still working on GtkD, QtD and DWT. - The development of the compiler is very slow More and more people are contributing patches so development has definitely become faster. Also Don has more or less taken over development of the CTFE functionality. Nice trend. - Only a small community = no real German community There is no separate German community but there are plenty of Germans here. Manchmal sieht man sie nur nicht sofort ^^ z.B. Don wohnt in Deutschland.
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
I'm very surprised that there are so many Germans who use D. Maybe the German D book is a reason for that. I don't know but it's pretty cool.
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
On 6/8/11 9:16 PM, Don wrote: Trass3r wrote: - The D compiler has only bad code optimization Yep, but there is LDC and GDC which use LLVM and GCC as backends respectively. - There are no maintained GUI libraries I wouldn't agree with that. Some people are still working on GtkD, QtD and DWT. - The development of the compiler is very slow More and more people are contributing patches so development has definitely become faster. Also Don has more or less taken over development of the CTFE functionality. Nice trend. - Only a small community = no real German community There is no separate German community but there are plenty of Germans here. Manchmal sieht man sie nur nicht sofort ^^ z.B. Don wohnt in Deutschland. Ein paar Österreicher sind auch mit von der Partie. :) David
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
Das ist ja klasse. Deutschland, Österreich, Schweiz - alle da
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
Andrej Mitrovic Wrote: No problem with FF3. You should upgrade FF4 to FF3 I guess. :P Your FF3 seems to use Adobe Flash instead of HTML5 video.
Is it reasonable to learn D
Dear D Community, is it reasonable to learn D? I've found a lot of good points for D but I've found a lot of negative points too. I believe that I needn't to list all the point for D but I want to give a few examples against learning D I've read in some German and English boards: - The D compiler has only bad code optimization - There are no maintained GUI libraries - The development of the compiler is very slow - Only a small community = no real German community So I ask you - Is it reasonable to learn D? I'm looking forward to your answers. Greetings Fabian PS: If you want to contact me you are allowed to write an Email to me. contact-...@freemail.de
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
On 06/07/2011 01:47 PM, Fabian wrote: Dear D Community, is it reasonable to learn D? I've found a lot of good points for D but I've found a lot of negative points too. I believe that I needn't to list all the point for D but I want to give a few examples against learning D I've read in some German and English boards: - The D compiler has only bad code optimization - There are no maintained GUI libraries - The development of the compiler is very slow - Only a small community = no real German community So I ask you - Is it reasonable to learn D? I'm looking forward to your answers. Greetings Fabian PS: If you want to contact me you are allowed to write an Email to me. contact-...@freemail.de I think your question is highly subjective. D is still a young language, which I think accounts for all of the negative feedback you've listed.
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
Fabian wrote: Dear D Community, is it reasonable to learn D? I've found a lot of good points for D but I've found a lot of negative points too. I believe that I needn't to list all the point for D but I want to give a few examples against learning D I've read in some German and English boards: - The D compiler has only bad code optimization It is not very bad, but does not match the sophisticatedness of modern C++ compilers. I think the optimizations on integer arithmetics are quite okay, but unfortunately the compiler cannot create floating point register variables. You can always resort to inline assembly/link in C or C++ if some part of your code is very performance-critical. D code can already outperform C++ code on similar tasks if you make smart use of D features. (without making your code ugly or unmaintainable). But it is true that this could be improved. (To the point where a D compiler could make MORE optimizations than C++, because it has immutable and pure). - There are no maintained GUI libraries I don't know about this but I think QtD and DWT are still being maintained? Also, D is fully binary compatible with C/(C++) You can also do your GUI programming in C or C++ and use D for some program logic until the situation improves. - The development of the compiler is very slow Have a look at the last changelog. The development is not lightning fast but quite steady. Also keep in mind that there is no big company behind D, all the compiler development is basically volunteering work. - Only a small community = no real German community The community does not grow if people stay away because it is small. ;) *I* speak German btw. So I ask you - Is it reasonable to learn D? I'm looking forward to your answers. Greetings Fabian PS: If you want to contact me you are allowed to write an Email to me. contact-...@freemail.de I think it is very reasonable. But it depends on what you want to use it for. There are already companies out there that use D. If you have some time to spend, it is certainly valuable. D has some very nice design decisions. The _language_ itself is imho superior to the alternatives. Where D is arguably somewhat lacking (as you have already figured out.) is support/native libraries. It does make up some of that by being easily linkable with C libraries, but you often will have to write the bindings yourself. But again that does not get better if people don't learn D because of lack of support or native libraries. There are also some upsides to a language being less mature: You can still submit patches and get some of your very own code into the reference compiler implementation! ;) Timon
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
I think your question is highly subjective. D is still a young language, which I think accounts for all of the negative feedback you've listed. I believe D isn't so young anymore. Version 1.0 was released 2007 and I believe 4 years are long enough to bring out some maintained GUI libraries. If someone says D doesn't aim at GUI development I must say that's not true because D is designed as a new object orientated language basing on C. And as a consequence of that D should support all the areas of application which C already supports. I hope you can understand my bad English. Connecting to that (my bad English) I have another stupid question: What does think accounts mean? Greetings Fabian
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
The community does not grow if people stay away because it is small. Thank you for your answer. - You've got a big point! I don't know about this but I think QtD and DWT are still being maintained? I can't see any changes on this web page: http://www.dsource.org/projects/dwt/wiki That's too bad :-( How do you use D? What are your fields of application? Greetings Fabian PS: Are you a native German speaker?
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
On 06/07/2011 01:55 PM, Fabian wrote: D is still a young language, which I think accounts for all of the negative feedback you've listed. What does think accounts mean? I rephrase with apology: rephraseD is still a young language. I think that fact accounts for all of the negative feedback that you've listed./rephrase Ali
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
On 2011-06-07 14:02, Fabian wrote: The community does not grow if people stay away because it is small. Thank you for your answer. - You've got a big point! I don't know about this but I think QtD and DWT are still being maintained? I can't see any changes on this web page: http://www.dsource.org/projects/dwt/wiki That's too bad :-( http://hg.dsource.org/projects/dwt2 DWT was recently ported to D2. Also, QtD is definitely under active development. But I'm sure that there's still plenty of work to be done. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
On 07/06/2011 20:47, Fabian wrote: Dear D Community, is it reasonable to learn D? I've found a lot of good points for D but I've found a lot of negative points too. I believe that I needn't to list all the point for D but I want to give a few examples against learning D I've read in some German and English boards: - The D compiler has only bad code optimization You must be thinking of dmd! There's also ldc and gdc using the llvm and gcc backends respectively, they're capable of producing code roughly as fast as the equivalent C/C++ applications. - There are no maintained GUI libraries I don't know what the state of GUI libraries is in D, but I have used both GtkD and QtD without problem before now. There are also a couple of others which have recently had updates. - The development of the compiler is very slow Very slow? dmd gets a new release about once a month with a huge of bug fixes - http://www.digitalmars.com/d/2.0/changelog.html - scroll down the page, there's a lot in each release. And, since the move the github, there's even more going on - https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dmd/commits/master at least a few commits a day, by an increasing number of developers. The speed of development has increased a lot in the past months. - Only a small community Well that's a catch-22 - if people chose not to learn it because it has a small community, the community will stay small! There's an increasing amount of awareness and adoption of D, particularly since Andrei released his book The D Programming Language. = no real German community You'd be surprised - while I don't think there's a dedicated German forum for D (perhaps you'd like to start one?) there are a lot of people from Germany using D - about 10% of the people in D's IRC channel on freenode are German, and there's probably more using the newsgroups. I think a lot of people chose to use English anyway as it's the language most of the people on the forums speak. So I ask you - Is it reasonable to learn D? Definitely yes! Even if you don't end up using it as a primary language, it's a fantastic language with lots of great ideas - I find myself missing features from D when I use other languages. I'm looking forward to your answers. Greetings Fabian PS: If you want to contact me you are allowed to write an Email to me. contact-...@freemail.de -- Robert http://octarineparrot.com/
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
Am 07.06.2011, 23:02 Uhr, schrieb Fabian contact-...@freenet.de: I can't see any changes on this web page: http://www.dsource.org/projects/dwt/wiki That doesn't mean anything. Development sometimes takes place behind the scenes or in forks at github or bitbucket.
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
Fabian wrote: The community does not grow if people stay away because it is small. Thank you for your answer. - You've got a big point! I don't know about this but I think QtD and DWT are still being maintained? I can't see any changes on this web page: http://www.dsource.org/projects/dwt/wiki That's too bad :-( How do you use D? What are your fields of application? I am quite new to D myself. I have been using D mostly for solving small algorithmic problems. I'd like to improve that situation though, I will definitely use D for some small/medium project soon. What are you looking for? Do you have any specific use in mind? Greetings Fabian PS: Are you a native German speaker? Yes. Timon
Re: Is it reasonable to learn D
- The D compiler has only bad code optimization Yep, but there is LDC and GDC which use LLVM and GCC as backends respectively. - There are no maintained GUI libraries I wouldn't agree with that. Some people are still working on GtkD, QtD and DWT. - The development of the compiler is very slow More and more people are contributing patches so development has definitely become faster. Also Don has more or less taken over development of the CTFE functionality. Nice trend. - Only a small community = no real German community There is no separate German community but there are plenty of Germans here. Manchmal sieht man sie nur nicht sofort ^^ So I ask you - Is it reasonable to learn D? Yeah, learning D is definitely worth it, if only to know why C++ and especially C++0x sucks ass ;) The language and its potential is just great. In my experience you shouldn't use D for a particular project though if you - have pressing deadlines, cause compiler bugs might become very painful. - depend on C++ libraries or have to code a module for a big C++ framework. I tried using SFML but wasted a lot of time writing the wrapper code instead of actual application code. Apart from that it's perfectly possible to accomplish non-trivial projects with D, be it against all odds like http://h3.gd/code/nucleus/
