Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle
Alan, Of course, the FCC rules on SS are outdated and ROS should be allowed due to its narrow spreading range, but the road to success is not to just rename a spread spectrum modem to something else and try to fool the FCC. This is a sure way to lose the battle. The genie is already out of the bottle! Instead, just petition the FCC for a waiver, or amendment, to the regulations that are a problem, to allow FHSS as long as the spreading does not exceed 3000 Hz and the signal is capable of being monitored by third parties. Do this, and there is not a problem anymore. But, do not try to disguise the fact that FHSS is being used by calling it something else, as that undermines the credibilty of the author of the mode and will make the FCC even more determined not to it on HF/VHF. It looks to me that the tone frequencies are clearly being generated independently from the data and then the data applied to the randomly generated frequency. There is NO pattern to ROS like there is to FSK modes, even to 32 tone FSK (Olivia 32-1000) or to 64 tone FSK (MT63-2000). This is a signature of FHSS. “/If/ it walks /like a duck/, quacks /like a duck/, /looks like a duck/, it must be a /duck/”. It looks like ROS really is FHSS when you look at it on a spectrum analyzer, and the spectrum analyzer does not lie. 73 - Skip KH6TY Alan Barrow wrote: KH6TY wrote: The difference between ROS and MFSK16 at idle (i.e. no data input), is that MFSK16 has repetitive carriers in a pattern, but the ROS idle has no repetitive pattern and when data is input, the pattern still appears to be random. Note the additional carriers when I send six letter N's in MFSK16. It then returns to the repetitive pattern of an MFSK16 idle. Note that the data (i.e. N's created new carriers depending upon the data. In this case, the frequency carriers are data dependent. If ROS is just FSK144, then I expected to find a repeating pattern at idle, but I never see one, even after letting ROS idle for a long time in transmit. It's pretty common in modems to randomize the data to prevent carriers when sending all zero's or ones. Phone modems do it, I'm pretty sure P3 does, and other RF modems do. I know of another amateur RF modem that had randomized spectra by design. By this test it would have been considered spreadspectrum, but it was not, it was mfsk with a randomizer. The randomizing algorithm was provided to the FCC, and life was good. This was before SS was allowed at all, and there was not a bit of discussion that it might have been spread-spectrum. If MFSK16 was randomized would it magically become spread-spectrum? All I know is, this is not the spread spectrum everyone is worried is going to ruin the bands! IE: traditional spread spectrum with bandwidth expansion of 100-1000. Have fun, Alan km4ba
Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle
If MFSK16 was randomized would it magically become spread-spectrum? Alan, sorry I forgot to reply to this question. The answer is yes, but only if the following three conditions are ALL met (from the ROS documentation): 1. The signal occupies a bandwidth much in excess of the minimum bandwidth necessary to send the information. 2. Spreading is accomplished by means of a spreading signal, often called a code signal, which is independent of the data. 3. At the receiver, despreading (recovering the original data) is accomplished by the correlation of the received spread signal with a synchronized replica of the spreading signal used to spread the information. Standard modulation schemes as frequency modulation and pulse code modulation also spread the spectrum of an information signal, but they do not qualify as spread-spectrum systems since they do not satisfy all the conditions outlined above. Looking at the comparison between ROS and MFSK16, http://home.comcast.net/~hteller/SPECTRUM.JPG, it is easy to see that MFSK16 is not FHSS, but ROS definitely is. Another thing that a petition should include is a requirement that ROS only be used BELOW the phone segments and ABOVE the narrowband data segments. On 20m, that means only between 14.1 and 14.225, because ROS is so wide. BTW, this same issue came up during the regulation by bandwidth debate when the ARRL HSMM (High Speed MultiMedia) proponents wanted to allow wideband, short timespan, signals everywhere with the argument that they last such a short time on any given frequency that they do not interfere, but the fallacy to that argument is that when you get a multitude of HSMM signals on at the same time, all together they can ruin communication for narrow modes, like PSK31. The other problem is that SHARING of frequencies requires that users of one mode be able to communicate with users of another mode in the same space so QRL or QSY can be used. It was realized that only CW used by both parties would make this possible. ROS does not work well in a crowded environment or with wideband QRM, so it must find a home relatively clear of other mode QRM. This is just another job the FCC must do in order to be sure a new mode does not create chaos. It has already been shown that leaving that up just to hams does not work, and the strongest try to take over the frequencies. upper 73 - Skip KH6TY Alan Barrow wrote: If MFSK16 was randomized would it magically become spread-spectrum?
Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle
jose alberto nieto ros wrote: I propose to moderator you will be banned if you continue saying stupid things in this group. Moderated for stupidity? Now that will be a first! Good luck with trying to fool the FCC. Spectral analysis suggests ROS really is FHSS, no matter what you now try to claim. This picture does not lie: http://home.comcast.net/~hteller/SPECTRUM.JPG Too bad - ROS is a fun mode and I cannot use it in USA except on UHF. I have only tried to help find a way for US hams to use ROS. It will be an honor to be banned for my stupidity! :-) Please go ahead as you wish. 73, Skip KH6TY SK jose alberto nieto ros wrote: My friend, one thing is what i wrote, and other different is what ROS is. If recommend you waste your time in doing something by Ham Radio, instead of criticism ROS. I propose to moderator you will be banned if you continue saying stupid things in this group. *De:* KH6TY kh...@comcast.net *Para:* digitalradio@yahoogroups.com *Enviado:* vie,26 febrero, 2010 13:18 *Asunto:* Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle If MFSK16 was randomized would it magically become spread-spectrum? Alan, sorry I forgot to reply to this question. The answer is yes, but only if the following three conditions are ALL met (from the ROS documentation) : 1. The signal occupies a bandwidth much in excess of the minimum bandwidth necessary to send the information. 2. Spreading is accomplished by means of a spreading signal, often called a code signal, which is independent of the data. 3. At the receiver, despreading (recovering the original data) is accomplished by the correlation of the received spread signal with a synchronized replica of the spreading signal used to spread the information. Standard modulation schemes as frequency modulation and pulse code modulation also spread the spectrum of an information signal, but they do not qualify as spread-spectrum systems since they do not satisfy all the conditions outlined above. Looking at the comparison between ROS and MFSK16, http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG, it is easy to see that MFSK16 is not FHSS, but ROS definitely is. Another thing that a petition should include is a requirement that ROS only be used BELOW the phone segments and ABOVE the narrowband data segments. On 20m, that means only between 14.1 and 14.225, because ROS is so wide. BTW, this same issue came up during the regulation by bandwidth debate when the ARRL HSMM (High Speed MultiMedia) proponents wanted to allow wideband, short timespan, signals everywhere with the argument that they last such a short time on any given frequency that they do not interfere, but the fallacy to that argument is that when you get a multitude of HSMM signals on at the same time, all together they can ruin communication for narrow modes, like PSK31. The other problem is that SHARING of frequencies requires that users of one mode be able to communicate with users of another mode in the same space so QRL or QSY can be used. It was realized that only CW used by both parties would make this possible. ROS does not work well in a crowded environment or with wideband QRM, so it must find a home relatively clear of other mode QRM. This is just another job the FCC must do in order to be sure a new mode does not create chaos. It has already been shown that leaving that up just to hams does not work, and the strongest try to take over the frequencies. upper 73 - Skip KH6TY Alan Barrow wrote: If MFSK16 was randomized would it magically become spread-spectrum?
Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle
If you are waste time in try demostrate ROS is a SS, i think you are not trying help. De: KH6TY kh...@comcast.net Para: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Enviado: vie,26 febrero, 2010 14:36 Asunto: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle jose alberto nieto ros wrote: I propose to moderator you will be banned if you continue saying stupid things in this group. Moderated for stupidity? Now that will be a first! Good luck with trying to fool the FCC. Spectral analysis suggests ROS really is FHSS, no matter what you now try to claim. This picture does not lie: http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG Too bad - ROS is a fun mode and I cannot use it in USA except on UHF. I have only tried to help find a way for US hams to use ROS. It will be an honor to be banned for my stupidity! :-) Please go ahead as you wish. 73, Skip KH6TY SK jose alberto nieto ros wrote: My friend, one thing is what i wrote, and other different is what ROS is. If recommend you waste your time in doing something by Ham Radio, instead of criticism ROS. I propose to moderator you will be banned if you continue saying stupid things in this group. De: KH6TY kh...@comcast. net Para: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Enviado: vie,26 febrero, 2010 13:18 Asunto: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle If MFSK16 was randomized would it magically become spread-spectrum? Alan, sorry I forgot to reply to this question. The answer is yes, but only if the following three conditions are ALL met (from the ROS documentation) : 1. The signal occupies a bandwidth much in excess of the minimum bandwidth necessary to send the information. 2. Spreading is accomplished by means of a spreading signal, often called a code signal, which is independent of the data. 3. At the receiver, despreading (recovering the original data) is accomplished by the correlation of the received spread signal with a synchronized replica of the spreading signal used to spread the information. Standard modulation schemes as frequency modulation and pulse code modulation also spread the spectrum of an information signal, but they do not qualify as spread-spectrum systems since they do not satisfy all the conditions outlined above. Looking at the comparison between ROS and MFSK16, http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG, it is easy to see that MFSK16 is not FHSS, but ROS definitely is. Another thing that a petition should include is a requirement that ROS only be used BELOW the phone segments and ABOVE the narrowband data segments. On 20m, that means only between 14.1 and 14.225, because ROS is so wide. BTW, this same issue came up during the regulation by bandwidth debate when the ARRL HSMM (High Speed MultiMedia) proponents wanted to allow wideband, short timespan, signals everywhere with the argument that they last such a short time on any given frequency that they do not interfere, but the fallacy to that argument is that when you get a multitude of HSMM signals on at the same time, all together they can ruin communication for narrow modes, like PSK31. The other problem is that SHARING of frequencies requires that users of one mode be able to communicate with users of another mode in the same space so QRL or QSY can be used. It was realized that only CW used by both parties would make this possible. ROS does not work well in a crowded environment or with wideband QRM, so it must find a home relatively clear of other mode QRM. This is just another job the FCC must do in order to be sure a new mode does not create chaos. It has already been shown that leaving that up just to hams does not work, and the strongest try to take over the frequencies. upper 73 - Skip KH6TY Alan Barrow wrote: If MFSK16 was randomized would it magically become spread-spectrum?
Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle
Jose, my attempted help is to let you understand that the FCC believed you when you said ROS is FHSS, so you will fail in any attempt to reclassify ROS as just FKS144. The FCC will not believe you. What will probably succeed is for you to continue to describe ROS as FHSS and let the FCC permit it in the USA as long as it can be monitored, the bandwidth does not exceed the wide of a SSB phone signal, and it is not used in either the phone bands (data is illegal there anyway) or in the band segments where narrow modes, such as PSK31 are used because it is as wide as the entire PSK31 activity area. Look at the spectral comparison http://home.comcast.net/~hteller/SPECTRUM.JPG. In the middle, I am sending data by MFSK16 (the letters N), and you can see that the frequencies are being determined by the data, which means it is not FHSS. But, in the middle of the ROS spectral display, I am doing the same thing, and there is no change to the frequencies being transmitted, obviously because the frequencies are independent of the data, which is requirement #2 in the ROS documentation for FHSS. This definitely implies ROS is FHSS. If you really want ROS to be legal here, just support a petition to the FCC to allow it. 73 - Skip KH6TY jose alberto nieto ros wrote: If you are waste time in try demostrate ROS is a SS, i think you are not trying help. *De:* KH6TY kh...@comcast.net *Para:* digitalradio@yahoogroups.com *Enviado:* vie,26 febrero, 2010 14:36 *Asunto:* Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle jose alberto nieto ros wrote: I propose to moderator you will be banned if you continue saying stupid things in this group. Moderated for stupidity? Now that will be a first! Good luck with trying to fool the FCC. Spectral analysis suggests ROS really is FHSS, no matter what you now try to claim. This picture does not lie: http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG Too bad - ROS is a fun mode and I cannot use it in USA except on UHF. I have only tried to help find a way for US hams to use ROS. It will be an honor to be banned for my stupidity! :-) Please go ahead as you wish. 73, Skip KH6TY SK jose alberto nieto ros wrote: My friend, one thing is what i wrote, and other different is what ROS is. If recommend you waste your time in doing something by Ham Radio, instead of criticism ROS. I propose to moderator you will be banned if you continue saying stupid things in this group. *De:* KH6TY kh...@comcast. net *Para:* digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com *Enviado:* vie,26 febrero, 2010 13:18 *Asunto:* Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle If MFSK16 was randomized would it magically become spread-spectrum? Alan, sorry I forgot to reply to this question. The answer is yes, but only if the following three conditions are ALL met (from the ROS documentation) : 1. The signal occupies a bandwidth much in excess of the minimum bandwidth necessary to send the information. 2. Spreading is accomplished by means of a spreading signal, often called a code signal, which is independent of the data. 3. At the receiver, despreading (recovering the original data) is accomplished by the correlation of the received spread signal with a synchronized replica of the spreading signal used to spread the information. Standard modulation schemes as frequency modulation and pulse code modulation also spread the spectrum of an information signal, but they do not qualify as spread-spectrum systems since they do not satisfy all the conditions outlined above. Looking at the comparison between ROS and MFSK16, http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG, it is easy to see that MFSK16 is not FHSS, but ROS definitely is. Another thing that a petition should include is a requirement that ROS only be used BELOW the phone segments and ABOVE the narrowband data segments. On 20m, that means only between 14.1 and 14.225, because ROS is so wide. BTW, this same issue came up during the regulation by bandwidth debate when the ARRL HSMM (High Speed MultiMedia) proponents wanted to allow wideband, short timespan, signals everywhere with the argument that they last such a short time on any given frequency that they do not interfere, but the fallacy to that argument is that when you get a multitude of HSMM signals on at the same time, all together they can ruin communication for narrow modes, like PSK31. The other problem is that SHARING of frequencies requires that users of one mode be able to communicate with users of another mode in the same space so QRL or QSY can be used. It was realized that only CW used by both parties would make this possible. ROS does not work well in a crowded environment or with wideband QRM, so it must find a home relatively clear of other mode QRM
Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle
Skip, can you show some more spectral comparison examples? This time add the widest Olivia mode and other very wide modes. Thanks in advance, Warren - K5WGM --- On Fri, 2/26/10, KH6TY kh...@comcast.net wrote: From: KH6TY kh...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 26, 2010, 8:11 AM Jose, my attempted help is to let you understand that the FCC believed you when you said ROS is FHSS, so you will fail in any attempt to reclassify ROS as just FKS144. The FCC will not believe you. What will probably succeed is for you to continue to describe ROS as FHSS and let the FCC permit it in the USA as long as it can be monitored, the bandwidth does not exceed the wide of a SSB phone signal, and it is not used in either the phone bands (data is illegal there anyway) or in the band segments where narrow modes, such as PSK31 are used because it is as wide as the entire PSK31 activity area. Look at the spectral comparison http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG. In the middle, I am sending data by MFSK16 (the letters N), and you can see that the frequencies are being determined by the data, which means it is not FHSS. But, in the middle of the ROS spectral display, I am doing the same thing, and there is no change to the frequencies being transmitted, obviously because the frequencies are independent of the data, which is requirement #2 in the ROS documentation for FHSS. This definitely implies ROS is FHSS. If you really want ROS to be legal here, just support a petition to the FCC to allow it. 73 - Skip KH6TY jose alberto nieto ros wrote: If you are waste time in try demostrate ROS is a SS, i think you are not trying help. De: KH6TY kh...@comcast. net Para: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Enviado: vie,26 febrero, 2010 14:36 Asunto: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle jose alberto nieto ros wrote: I propose to moderator you will be banned if you continue saying stupid things in this group. Moderated for stupidity? Now that will be a first! Good luck with trying to fool the FCC. Spectral analysis suggests ROS really is FHSS, no matter what you now try to claim. This picture does not lie: http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG Too bad - ROS is a fun mode and I cannot use it in USA except on UHF. I have only tried to help find a way for US hams to use ROS. It will be an honor to be banned for my stupidity! :-) Please go ahead as you wish. 73, Skip KH6TY SK jose alberto nieto ros wrote: My friend, one thing is what i wrote, and other different is what ROS is. If recommend you waste your time in doing something by Ham Radio, instead of criticism ROS. I propose to moderator you will be banned if you continue saying stupid things in this group. De: KH6TY kh...@comcast. net Para: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Enviado: vie,26 febrero, 2010 13:18 Asunto: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle If MFSK16 was randomized would it magically become spread-spectrum? Alan, sorry I forgot to reply to this question. The answer is yes, but only if the following three conditions are ALL met (from the ROS documentation) : 1. The signal occupies a bandwidth much in excess of the minimum bandwidth necessary to send the information. 2. Spreading is accomplished by means of a spreading signal, often called a code signal, which is independent of the data. 3. At the receiver, despreading (recovering the original data) is accomplished by the correlation of the received spread signal with a synchronized replica of the spreading signal used to spread the information. Standard modulation schemes as frequency modulation and pulse code modulation also spread the spectrum of an information signal, but they do not qualify as spread-spectrum systems since they do not satisfy all the conditions outlined above. Looking at the comparison between ROS and MFSK16, http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG, it is easy to see that MFSK16 is not FHSS, but ROS definitely is. Another thing that a petition should include is a requirement that ROS only be used BELOW the phone segments and ABOVE the narrowband data segments. On 20m, that means only between 14.1 and 14.225, because ROS is so wide. BTW, this same issue came up during the regulation by bandwidth debate when the ARRL HSMM (High Speed MultiMedia) proponents wanted to allow wideband, short timespan, signals everywhere with the argument that they last such a short time on any given frequency that they do not interfere, but the fallacy to that argument is that when you get a multitude of HSMM signals on at the same time, all together they can ruin communication
Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle
Hi Warren, I have already captured a spectrum of Olivia 32-100 (i.e., FSK32) and posted it in a reply, but glad do it again.. You can see the fixed frequencies at idle and then the new frequencies added when data is sent (in the seared middle part). I have not combined that on one uploaded page with the ROS spectrum analysis, but you can easily compare the two yourself, using the ROS spectral analysys with MFSK16. I wanted to confirm that both MFSK16 and Olivia 32-100 had the same signature of FSK, and they do, which is far different from the signature of ROS. It is very clear that ROS is using Frequency Hopping, as the frequencies are not a function of the data, and that is a unique characteristic of frequency hopping, at least according to everything I could find. Olivia 32-1000: http://home.comcast.net/~hteller/OLIVIA32-1000.JPG 73 - Skip KH6TY Warren Moxley wrote: Skip, can you show some more spectral comparison examples? This time add the widest Olivia mode and other very wide modes. Thanks in advance, Warren - K5WGM --- On *Fri, 2/26/10, KH6TY /kh...@comcast.net/* wrote: From: KH6TY kh...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 26, 2010, 8:11 AM Jose, my attempted help is to let you understand that the FCC believed you when you said ROS is FHSS, so you will fail in any attempt to reclassify ROS as just FKS144. The FCC will not believe you. What will probably succeed is for you to continue to describe ROS as FHSS and let the FCC permit it in the USA as long as it can be monitored, the bandwidth does not exceed the wide of a SSB phone signal, and it is not used in either the phone bands (data is illegal there anyway) or in the band segments where narrow modes, such as PSK31 are used because it is as wide as the entire PSK31 activity area. Look at the spectral comparison http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG. In the middle, I am sending data by MFSK16 (the letters N), and you can see that the frequencies are being determined by the data, which means it is not FHSS. But, in the middle of the ROS spectral display, I am doing the same thing, and there is no change to the frequencies being transmitted, obviously because the frequencies are independent of the data, which is requirement #2 in the ROS documentation for FHSS. This definitely implies ROS is FHSS. If you really want ROS to be legal here, just support a petition to the FCC to allow it. 73 - Skip KH6TY jose alberto nieto ros wrote: If you are waste time in try demostrate ROS is a SS, i think you are not trying help. *De:* KH6TY kh...@comcast. net *Para:* digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com *Enviado:* vie,26 febrero, 2010 14:36 *Asunto:* Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle jose alberto nieto ros wrote: I propose to moderator you will be banned if you continue saying stupid things in this group. Moderated for stupidity? Now that will be a first! Good luck with trying to fool the FCC. Spectral analysis suggests ROS really is FHSS, no matter what you now try to claim. This picture does not lie: http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG Too bad - ROS is a fun mode and I cannot use it in USA except on UHF. I have only tried to help find a way for US hams to use ROS. It will be an honor to be banned for my stupidity! :-) Please go ahead as you wish. 73, Skip KH6TY SK jose alberto nieto ros wrote: My friend, one thing is what i wrote, and other different is what ROS is. If recommend you waste your time in doing something by Ham Radio, instead of criticism ROS. I propose to moderator you will be banned if you continue saying stupid things in this group. *De:* KH6TY kh...@comcast. net *Para:* digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com *Enviado:* vie,26 febrero, 2010 13:18 *Asunto:* Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle If MFSK16 was randomized would it magically become spread-spectrum? Alan, sorry I forgot to reply to this question. The answer is yes, but only if the following three conditions are ALL met (from the ROS documentation) : 1. The signal occupies a bandwidth much in excess of the minimum bandwidth necessary to send the information. 2. Spreading is accomplished by means of a spreading signal, often called a code signal, which is independent of the data. 3. At the receiver, despreading (recovering the original data) is accomplished by the correlation of the received spread signal
Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle
Sorry for the typos! seared should have been smeared and Olivia 32-100 should have been Olivia 32, 1000, as you requested. 73 - Skip KH6TY KH6TY wrote: Hi Warren, I have already captured a spectrum of Olivia 32-100 (i.e., FSK32) and posted it in a reply, but glad do it again.. You can see the fixed frequencies at idle and then the new frequencies added when data is sent (in the seared middle part). I have not combined that on one uploaded page with the ROS spectrum analysis, but you can easily compare the two yourself, using the ROS spectral analysys with MFSK16. I wanted to confirm that both MFSK16 and Olivia 32-100 had the same signature of FSK, and they do, which is far different from the signature of ROS. It is very clear that ROS is using Frequency Hopping, as the frequencies are not a function of the data, and that is a unique characteristic of frequency hopping, at least according to everything I could find. Olivia 32-1000: http://home.comcast.net/~hteller/OLIVIA32-1000.JPG 73 - Skip KH6TY Warren Moxley wrote: Skip, can you show some more spectral comparison examples? This time add the widest Olivia mode and other very wide modes. Thanks in advance, Warren - K5WGM --- On *Fri, 2/26/10, KH6TY /kh...@comcast.net/* wrote: From: KH6TY kh...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 26, 2010, 8:11 AM Jose, my attempted help is to let you understand that the FCC believed you when you said ROS is FHSS, so you will fail in any attempt to reclassify ROS as just FKS144. The FCC will not believe you. What will probably succeed is for you to continue to describe ROS as FHSS and let the FCC permit it in the USA as long as it can be monitored, the bandwidth does not exceed the wide of a SSB phone signal, and it is not used in either the phone bands (data is illegal there anyway) or in the band segments where narrow modes, such as PSK31 are used because it is as wide as the entire PSK31 activity area. Look at the spectral comparison http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG. In the middle, I am sending data by MFSK16 (the letters N), and you can see that the frequencies are being determined by the data, which means it is not FHSS. But, in the middle of the ROS spectral display, I am doing the same thing, and there is no change to the frequencies being transmitted, obviously because the frequencies are independent of the data, which is requirement #2 in the ROS documentation for FHSS. This definitely implies ROS is FHSS. If you really want ROS to be legal here, just support a petition to the FCC to allow it. 73 - Skip KH6TY jose alberto nieto ros wrote: If you are waste time in try demostrate ROS is a SS, i think you are not trying help. *De:* KH6TY kh...@comcast. net *Para:* digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com *Enviado:* vie,26 febrero, 2010 14:36 *Asunto:* Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle jose alberto nieto ros wrote: I propose to moderator you will be banned if you continue saying stupid things in this group. Moderated for stupidity? Now that will be a first! Good luck with trying to fool the FCC. Spectral analysis suggests ROS really is FHSS, no matter what you now try to claim. This picture does not lie: http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG Too bad - ROS is a fun mode and I cannot use it in USA except on UHF. I have only tried to help find a way for US hams to use ROS. It will be an honor to be banned for my stupidity! :-) Please go ahead as you wish. 73, Skip KH6TY SK jose alberto nieto ros wrote: My friend, one thing is what i wrote, and other different is what ROS is. If recommend you waste your time in doing something by Ham Radio, instead of criticism ROS. I propose to moderator you will be banned if you continue saying stupid things in this group. *De:* KH6TY kh...@comcast. net *Para:* digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com *Enviado:* vie,26 febrero, 2010 13:18 *Asunto:* Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle If MFSK16 was randomized would it magically become spread-spectrum? Alan, sorry I forgot to reply to this question. The answer is yes, but only if the following three conditions are ALL met (from the ROS documentation) : 1. The signal occupies a bandwidth much in excess of the minimum bandwidth necessary to send the information. 2. Spreading is accomplished by means of a spreading signal, often called a code signal, which
Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle
Jose, I have already had some experience in dealing with the FCC on mode matters and even submitted my own petition, so I am trying to use that experience with them to give you good advice on how to get ROS allowed over here. I want to use ROS myself on 2M EME also, but rith now I can only use it on 70cm EME unless the FCC will allow it on 2M, so I have a strong reason myself to see the regulations changed to allow ROS to be used. My best advice to you is that a petition to the FCC to allow ROS (with the necessary limitations they think are necessary to protect other users of the bands), stands the best chance of success. If you think this is stupid advice, then just ignore it, and hope that your approach will win, but I doubt that it will, given the fact that the FCC has already believed you in the first case and because spectral analysis shows ROS is not the same as FMFSK16 or Olivia 32-1000, both FSK modes where the data determines the frequency spread. 73 - Skip KH6TY jose alberto nieto ros wrote: If you are waste time in try demostrate ROS is a SS, i think you are not trying help. *De:* KH6TY kh...@comcast.net *Para:* digitalradio@yahoogroups.com *Enviado:* vie,26 febrero, 2010 14:36 *Asunto:* Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle jose alberto nieto ros wrote: I propose to moderator you will be banned if you continue saying stupid things in this group. Moderated for stupidity? Now that will be a first! Good luck with trying to fool the FCC. Spectral analysis suggests ROS really is FHSS, no matter what you now try to claim. This picture does not lie: http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG Too bad - ROS is a fun mode and I cannot use it in USA except on UHF. I have only tried to help find a way for US hams to use ROS. It will be an honor to be banned for my stupidity! :-) Please go ahead as you wish. 73, Skip KH6TY SK jose alberto nieto ros wrote: My friend, one thing is what i wrote, and other different is what ROS is. If recommend you waste your time in doing something by Ham Radio, instead of criticism ROS. I propose to moderator you will be banned if you continue saying stupid things in this group. *De:* KH6TY kh...@comcast. net *Para:* digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com *Enviado:* vie,26 febrero, 2010 13:18 *Asunto:* Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle If MFSK16 was randomized would it magically become spread-spectrum? Alan, sorry I forgot to reply to this question. The answer is yes, but only if the following three conditions are ALL met (from the ROS documentation) : 1. The signal occupies a bandwidth much in excess of the minimum bandwidth necessary to send the information. 2. Spreading is accomplished by means of a spreading signal, often called a code signal, which is independent of the data. 3. At the receiver, despreading (recovering the original data) is accomplished by the correlation of the received spread signal with a synchronized replica of the spreading signal used to spread the information. Standard modulation schemes as frequency modulation and pulse code modulation also spread the spectrum of an information signal, but they do not qualify as spread-spectrum systems since they do not satisfy all the conditions outlined above. Looking at the comparison between ROS and MFSK16, http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG, it is easy to see that MFSK16 is not FHSS, but ROS definitely is. Another thing that a petition should include is a requirement that ROS only be used BELOW the phone segments and ABOVE the narrowband data segments. On 20m, that means only between 14.1 and 14.225, because ROS is so wide. BTW, this same issue came up during the regulation by bandwidth debate when the ARRL HSMM (High Speed MultiMedia) proponents wanted to allow wideband, short timespan, signals everywhere with the argument that they last such a short time on any given frequency that they do not interfere, but the fallacy to that argument is that when you get a multitude of HSMM signals on at the same time, all together they can ruin communication for narrow modes, like PSK31. The other problem is that SHARING of frequencies requires that users of one mode be able to communicate with users of another mode in the same space so QRL or QSY can be used. It was realized that only CW used by both parties would make this possible. ROS does not work well in a crowded environment or with wideband QRM, so it must find a home relatively clear of other mode QRM. This is just another job the FCC must do in order to be sure a new mode does not create chaos. It has already been shown that leaving that up just to hams does not work, and the strongest try to take over the frequencies. upper 73 - Skip KH6TY Alan Barrow
Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle
KH, are you a Ham Radio or a FCC member? If you are Ham Radio you should waste your time in help new modes would be used. Only a fool throws stones at your own roof. So, if you are not a FCC member, then we know what you are. De: KH6TY kh...@comcast.net Para: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Enviado: vie,26 febrero, 2010 15:27 Asunto: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle Hi Warren, I have already captured a spectrum of Olivia 32-100 (i.e., FSK32) and posted it in a reply, but glad do it again.. You can see the fixed frequencies at idle and then the new frequencies added when data is sent (in the seared middle part). I have not combined that on one uploaded page with the ROS spectrum analysis, but you can easily compare the two yourself, using the ROS spectral analysys with MFSK16. I wanted to confirm that both MFSK16 and Olivia 32-100 had the same signature of FSK, and they do, which is far different from the signature of ROS. It is very clear that ROS is using Frequency Hopping, as the frequencies are not a function of the data, and that is a unique characteristic of frequency hopping, at least according to everything I could find. Olivia 32-1000: http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ OLIVIA32- 1000.JPG 73 - Skip KH6TY Warren Moxley wrote: Skip, can you show some more spectral comparison examples? This time add the widest Olivia mode and other very wide modes. Thanks in advance, Warren - K5WGM --- On Fri, 2/26/10, KH6TY kh...@comcast. net wrote: From: KH6TY kh...@comcast. net Subject: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle To: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Date: Friday, February 26, 2010, 8:11 AM Jose, my attempted help is to let you understand that the FCC believed you when you said ROS is FHSS, so you will fail in any attempt to reclassify ROS as just FKS144. The FCC will not believe you. What will probably succeed is for you to continue to describe ROS as FHSS and let the FCC permit it in the USA as long as it can be monitored, the bandwidth does not exceed the wide of a SSB phone signal, and it is not used in either the phone bands (data is illegal there anyway) or in the band segments where narrow modes, such as PSK31 are used because it is as wide as the entire PSK31 activity area. Look at the spectral comparison http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG. In the middle, I am sending data by MFSK16 (the letters N), and you can see that the frequencies are being determined by the data, which means it is not FHSS. But, in the middle of the ROS spectral display, I am doing the same thing, and there is no change to the frequencies being transmitted, obviously because the frequencies are independent of the data, which is requirement #2 in the ROS documentation for FHSS. This definitely implies ROS is FHSS. If you really want ROS to be legal here, just support a petition to the FCC to allow it. 73 - Skip KH6TY jose alberto nieto ros wrote: If you are waste time in try demostrate ROS is a SS, i think you are not trying help. De: KH6TY kh...@comcast. net Para: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Enviado: vie,26 febrero, 2010 14:36 Asunto: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle jose alberto nieto ros wrote: I propose to moderator you will be banned if you continue saying stupid things in this group. Moderated for stupidity? Now that will be a first! Good luck with trying to fool the FCC. Spectral analysis suggests ROS really is FHSS, no matter what you now try to claim. This picture does not lie: http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG Too bad - ROS is a fun mode and I cannot use it in USA except on UHF. I have only tried to help find a way for US hams to use ROS. It will be an honor to be banned for my stupidity! :-) Please go ahead as you wish. 73, Skip KH6TY SK jose alberto nieto ros wrote: My friend, one thing is what i wrote, and other different is what ROS is. If recommend you waste your time in doing something by Ham Radio, instead of criticism ROS. I propose to moderator you will be banned if you continue saying stupid things in this group. De: KH6TY kh...@comcast. net Para: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Enviado: vie,26 febrero, 2010 13:18 Asunto: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle If MFSK16 was randomized would it magically become spread-spectrum? Alan, sorry I forgot to reply to this question. The answer is yes, but only if the following three conditions are ALL met (from the ROS documentation) : 1. The signal occupies a bandwidth much in excess of the minimum bandwidth necessary to send the information. 2. Spreading is accomplished by means of a spreading signal, often called a code signal, which is independent of the data. 3. At the receiver, despreading (recovering the original data) is accomplished by the correlation
Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle
This is rude. Where is the moderator when you need him? From: jose alberto nieto ros nietoro...@yahoo.es To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 26, 2010 8:59:00 AM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle KH, are you a Ham Radio or a FCC member? If you are Ham Radio you should waste your time in help new modes would be used. Only a fool throws stones at your own roof. So, if you are not a FCC member, then we know what you are. De: KH6TY kh...@comcast. net Para: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Enviado: vie,26 febrero, 2010 15:27 Asunto: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle Hi Warren, I have already captured a spectrum of Olivia 32-100 (i.e., FSK32) and posted it in a reply, but glad do it again.. You can see the fixed frequencies at idle and then the new frequencies added when data is sent (in the seared middle part). I have not combined that on one uploaded page with the ROS spectrum analysis, but you can easily compare the two yourself, using the ROS spectral analysys with MFSK16. I wanted to confirm that both MFSK16 and Olivia 32-100 had the same signature of FSK, and they do, which is far different from the signature of ROS. It is very clear that ROS is using Frequency Hopping, as the frequencies are not a function of the data, and that is a unique characteristic of frequency hopping, at least according to everything I could find. Olivia 32-1000: http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ OLIVIA32- 1000.JPG 73 - Skip KH6TY Warren Moxley wrote: Skip, can you show some more spectral comparison examples? This time add the widest Olivia mode and other very wide modes. Thanks in advance, Warren - K5WGM --- On Fri, 2/26/10, KH6TY kh...@comcast. net wrote: From: KH6TY kh...@comcast. net Subject: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle To: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Date: Friday, February 26, 2010, 8:11 AM Jose, my attempted help is to let you understand that the FCC believed you when you said ROS is FHSS, so you will fail in any attempt to reclassify ROS as just FKS144. The FCC will not believe you. What will probably succeed is for you to continue to describe ROS as FHSS and let the FCC permit it in the USA as long as it can be monitored, the bandwidth does not exceed the wide of a SSB phone signal, and it is not used in either the phone bands (data is illegal there anyway) or in the band segments where narrow modes, such as PSK31 are used because it is as wide as the entire PSK31 activity area. Look at the spectral comparison http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG. In the middle, I am sending data by MFSK16 (the letters N), and you can see that the frequencies are being determined by the data, which means it is not FHSS. But, in the middle of the ROS spectral display, I am doing the same thing, and there is no change to the frequencies being transmitted, obviously because the frequencies are independent of the data, which is requirement #2 in the ROS documentation for FHSS. This definitely implies ROS is FHSS. If you really want ROS to be legal here, just support a petition to the FCC to allow it. 73 - Skip KH6TY jose alberto nieto ros wrote: If you are waste time in try demostrate ROS is a SS, i think you are not trying help. De: KH6TY kh...@comcast. net Para: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Enviado: vie,26 febrero, 2010 14:36 Asunto: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle jose alberto nieto ros wrote: I propose to moderator you will be banned if you continue saying stupid things in this group. Moderated for stupidity? Now that will be a first! Good luck with trying to fool the FCC. Spectral analysis suggests ROS really is FHSS, no matter what you now try to claim. This picture does not lie: http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG Too bad - ROS is a fun mode and I cannot use it in USA except on UHF. I have only tried to help find a way for US hams to use ROS. It will be an honor to be banned for my stupidity! :-) Please go ahead as you wish. 73, Skip KH6TY SK jose alberto nieto ros wrote: My friend, one thing is what i wrote, and other different is what ROS is. If recommend you waste your time in doing something by Ham Radio, instead of criticism ROS. I propose to moderator you will be banned if you continue saying stupid things in this group. De: KH6TY kh...@comcast. net Para: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Enviado: vie,26 febrero, 2010 13:18 Asunto: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle If MFSK16 was randomized would it magically become spread-spectrum? Alan, sorry I forgot to reply to this question. The answer is yes, but only if the following three conditions are ALL met (from the ROS documentation) : 1. The signal occupies a bandwidth much in excess
Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle
Jose, I am a ham radio member in good standing and have been for over 55 years. I believe I also have some degree of respect and appreciation in the ham community for my development of DigiPan, introduction of PSK63, and my speech-to-text software for the blind ham so they can use PSK31. Recently, I have been trying to use my experience in dealing with the FCC to help get you over this problem you have created, but you do not understand that, and I really do not appreciate your snide inferences as to my motives. You have made your own bed, so you can now lie in it, Jose. I will not waste any more of my time trying to help ROS be legal in the USA. Let someone else be the subject of your personal attacks. Goodbye and good luck. 73 - Skip KH6TY jose alberto nieto ros wrote: KH, are you a Ham Radio or a FCC member? If you are Ham Radio you should waste your time in help new modes would be used. Only a fool throws stones at your own roof. So, if you are not a FCC member, then we know what you are. *De:* KH6TY kh...@comcast.net *Para:* digitalradio@yahoogroups.com *Enviado:* vie,26 febrero, 2010 15:27 *Asunto:* Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle Hi Warren, I have already captured a spectrum of Olivia 32-100 (i.e., FSK32) and posted it in a reply, but glad do it again.. You can see the fixed frequencies at idle and then the new frequencies added when data is sent (in the seared middle part). I have not combined that on one uploaded page with the ROS spectrum analysis, but you can easily compare the two yourself, using the ROS spectral analysys with MFSK16. I wanted to confirm that both MFSK16 and Olivia 32-100 had the same signature of FSK, and they do, which is far different from the signature of ROS. It is very clear that ROS is using Frequency Hopping, as the frequencies are not a function of the data, and that is a unique characteristic of frequency hopping, at least according to everything I could find. Olivia 32-1000: http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ OLIVIA32- 1000.JPG 73 - Skip KH6TY Warren Moxley wrote: Skip, can you show some more spectral comparison examples? This time add the widest Olivia mode and other very wide modes. Thanks in advance, Warren - K5WGM --- On *Fri, 2/26/10, KH6TY /kh...@comcast. net/* wrote: From: KH6TY kh...@comcast. net Subject: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle To: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Date: Friday, February 26, 2010, 8:11 AM Jose, my attempted help is to let you understand that the FCC believed you when you said ROS is FHSS, so you will fail in any attempt to reclassify ROS as just FKS144. The FCC will not believe you. What will probably succeed is for you to continue to describe ROS as FHSS and let the FCC permit it in the USA as long as it can be monitored, the bandwidth does not exceed the wide of a SSB phone signal, and it is not used in either the phone bands (data is illegal there anyway) or in the band segments where narrow modes, such as PSK31 are used because it is as wide as the entire PSK31 activity area. Look at the spectral comparison http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG. In the middle, I am sending data by MFSK16 (the letters N), and you can see that the frequencies are being determined by the data, which means it is not FHSS. But, in the middle of the ROS spectral display, I am doing the same thing, and there is no change to the frequencies being transmitted, obviously because the frequencies are independent of the data, which is requirement #2 in the ROS documentation for FHSS. This definitely implies ROS is FHSS. If you really want ROS to be legal here, just support a petition to the FCC to allow it. 73 - Skip KH6TY jose alberto nieto ros wrote: If you are waste time in try demostrate ROS is a SS, i think you are not trying help. *De:* KH6TY kh...@comcast. net *Para:* digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com *Enviado:* vie,26 febrero, 2010 14:36 *Asunto:* Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle jose alberto nieto ros wrote: I propose to moderator you will be banned if you continue saying stupid things in this group. Moderated for stupidity? Now that will be a first! Good luck with trying to fool the FCC. Spectral analysis suggests ROS really is FHSS, no matter what you now try to claim. This picture does not lie: http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG Too bad - ROS is a fun mode and I cannot use it in USA except on UHF. I have only tried to help find a way for US hams to use ROS. It will be an honor to be banned for my stupidity! :-) Please go ahead
Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle
Warren, Patrick, F6CTE, has an excellent spectral display of almost every mode at this link: http://f1ult.free.fr/DIGIMODES/MULTIPSK/digimodesF6CTE_en.htm Those displays are just like the one I made with ROS and MFSK16, but not over such a wide bandwidth and not with data input - only idling, and without the comparison to ROS. 73 - Skip KH6TY Warren Moxley wrote: Skip, can you show some more spectral comparison examples? This time add the widest Olivia mode and other very wide modes. Thanks in advance, Warren - K5WGM --- On *Fri, 2/26/10, KH6TY /kh...@comcast.net/* wrote: From: KH6TY kh...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 26, 2010, 8:11 AM Jose, my attempted help is to let you understand that the FCC believed you when you said ROS is FHSS, so you will fail in any attempt to reclassify ROS as just FKS144. The FCC will not believe you. What will probably succeed is for you to continue to describe ROS as FHSS and let the FCC permit it in the USA as long as it can be monitored, the bandwidth does not exceed the wide of a SSB phone signal, and it is not used in either the phone bands (data is illegal there anyway) or in the band segments where narrow modes, such as PSK31 are used because it is as wide as the entire PSK31 activity area. Look at the spectral comparison http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG. In the middle, I am sending data by MFSK16 (the letters N), and you can see that the frequencies are being determined by the data, which means it is not FHSS. But, in the middle of the ROS spectral display, I am doing the same thing, and there is no change to the frequencies being transmitted, obviously because the frequencies are independent of the data, which is requirement #2 in the ROS documentation for FHSS. This definitely implies ROS is FHSS. If you really want ROS to be legal here, just support a petition to the FCC to allow it. 73 - Skip KH6TY jose alberto nieto ros wrote: If you are waste time in try demostrate ROS is a SS, i think you are not trying help. *De:* KH6TY kh...@comcast. net *Para:* digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com *Enviado:* vie,26 febrero, 2010 14:36 *Asunto:* Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle jose alberto nieto ros wrote: I propose to moderator you will be banned if you continue saying stupid things in this group. Moderated for stupidity? Now that will be a first! Good luck with trying to fool the FCC. Spectral analysis suggests ROS really is FHSS, no matter what you now try to claim. This picture does not lie: http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG Too bad - ROS is a fun mode and I cannot use it in USA except on UHF. I have only tried to help find a way for US hams to use ROS. It will be an honor to be banned for my stupidity! :-) Please go ahead as you wish. 73, Skip KH6TY SK jose alberto nieto ros wrote: My friend, one thing is what i wrote, and other different is what ROS is. If recommend you waste your time in doing something by Ham Radio, instead of criticism ROS. I propose to moderator you will be banned if you continue saying stupid things in this group. *De:* KH6TY kh...@comcast. net *Para:* digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com *Enviado:* vie,26 febrero, 2010 13:18 *Asunto:* Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle If MFSK16 was randomized would it magically become spread-spectrum? Alan, sorry I forgot to reply to this question. The answer is yes, but only if the following three conditions are ALL met (from the ROS documentation) : 1. The signal occupies a bandwidth much in excess of the minimum bandwidth necessary to send the information. 2. Spreading is accomplished by means of a spreading signal, often called a code signal, which is independent of the data. 3. At the receiver, despreading (recovering the original data) is accomplished by the correlation of the received spread signal with a synchronized replica of the spreading signal used to spread the information. Standard modulation schemes as frequency modulation and pulse code modulation also spread the spectrum of an information signal, but they do not qualify as spread-spectrum systems since they do not satisfy all the conditions outlined above. Looking at the comparison between ROS and MFSK16, http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG, it is easy to see that MFSK16 is not FHSS, but ROS
Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle
jose alberto nieto ros wrote: KH, are you a Ham Radio or a FCC member? If you are Ham Radio you should waste your time in help new modes would be used. Only a fool throws stones at your own roof. So, if you are not a FCC member, then we know what you are. Jose, I should give up on this discussion if I were you. The genie is out of the bottle and you wont be able to get it back in on this forum, whatever the technical arguments are. My advice would be to forget the debate, let those in the USA sort out their own administration problems by *them* petitioning the ARRL and/or the FCC (not sure which way round it has to go) if they want to use the mode. If I were you I'd just concentrate efforts on developing the program and let those of us that are fortunate that we don't live in the USA use and develop the mode. Dave (G0DJA)
Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle
Sounds like a bunch of crap to me . . . From: Toby Burnett ruff...@hebrides.net To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 26, 2010 9:44:05 AM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle Lol really sorry, must have clicked the wrong message to reply too. You guys didn't need to know that lol ---Original Message- -- From: Toby Burnett Date: 26/02/2010 14:41:16 To: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle It's a voting ballot sheet. Trying to fix the 2m yagi beam. God it's old but it was given to me and it may still work. Xxx Picked up ALL the dog poop 5 bags worth, some not so easy. xx ---Original Message- -- From: KH6TY Date: 26/02/2010 13:39:44 To: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle jose alberto nieto ros wrote: I propose to moderator you will be banned if you continue saying stupid things in this group. Moderated for stupidity? Now that will be a first! Good luck with trying to fool the FCC. Spectral analysis suggests ROS really is FHSS, no matter what you now try to claim. This picture does not lie: http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG Too bad - ROS is a fun mode and I cannot use it in USA except on UHF. I have only tried to help find a way for US hams to use ROS. It will be an honor to be banned for my stupidity! :-) Please go ahead as you wish. 73, Skip KH6TY SK jose alberto nieto ros wrote: My friend, one thing is what i wrote, and other different is what ROS is. If recommend you waste your time in doing something by Ham Radio, instead of criticism ROS. I propose to moderator you will be banned if you continue saying stupid things in this group. De: KH6TY kh...@comcast. net Para: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Enviado: vie,26 febrero, 2010 13:18 Asunto: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle If MFSK16 was randomized would it magically become spread-spectrum? Alan, sorry I forgot to reply to this question. The answer is yes, but only if the following three conditions are ALL met (from the ROS documentation) : 1. The signal occupies a bandwidth much in excess of the minimum bandwidth necessary to send the information. 2. Spreading is accomplished by means of a spreading signal, often called a code signal, which is independent of the data. 3. At the receiver, despreading (recovering the original data) is accomplished by the correlation of the received spread signal with a synchronized replica of the spreading signal used to spread the information. Standard modulation schemes as frequency modulation and pulse code modulation also spread the spectrum of an information signal, but they do not qualify as spread-spectrum systems since they do not satisfy all the conditions outlined above. Looking at the comparison between ROS and MFSK16, http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG, it is easy to see that MFSK16 is not FHSS, but ROS definitely is. Another thing that a petition should include is a requirement that ROS only be used BELOW the phone segments and ABOVE the narrowband data segments. On 20m, that means only between 14.1 and 14.225, because ROS is so wide. BTW, this same issue came up during the regulation by bandwidth debate when the ARRL HSMM (High Speed MultiMedia) proponents wanted to allow wideband, short timespan, signals everywhere with the argument that they last such a short time on any given frequency that they do not interfere, but the fallacy to that argument is that when you get a multitude of HSMM signals on at the same time, all together they can ruin communication for narrow modes, like PSK31. The other problem is that SHARING of frequencies requires that users of one mode b e able to communicate with users of another mode in the same space so QRL or QSY can be used. It was realized that only CW used by both parties would make this possible. ROS does not work well in a crowded environment or with wideband QRM, so it must find a home relatively clear of other mode QRM. This is just another job the FCC must do in order to be sure a new mode does not create chaos. It has already been shown that leaving that up just to hams does not work, and the strongest try to take over the frequencies. upper 73 - Skip KH6TY Alan Barrow wrote: If MFSK16 was randomized would it magically become spread-spectrum?
Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle
Astonishing... astonishing language barrier and also an astonishing lack of clues... What a pity. He is not a ham and it seems that understanding the facts is harder for him than applying the proper equations. You can fool all a part of the time, fool a few all the time but not everybody all the time. Jose, CO2JA El 26/02/2010 09:59 a.m., jose alberto nieto ros escribió: KH, are you a Ham Radio or a FCC member? If you are Ham Radio you should waste your time in help new modes would be used. Only a fool throws stones at your own roof. So, if you are not a FCC member, then we know what you are. *De:* KH6TY kh...@comcast.net *Para:* digitalradio@yahoogroups.com *Enviado:* vie,26 febrero, 2010 15:27 *Asunto:* Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle Hi Warren, I have already captured a spectrum of Olivia 32-100 (i.e., FSK32) and posted it in a reply, but glad do it again.. You can see the fixed frequencies at idle and then the new frequencies added when data is sent (in the seared middle part). I have not combined that on one uploaded page with the ROS spectrum analysis, but you can easily compare the two yourself, using the ROS spectral analysys with MFSK16. I wanted to confirm that both MFSK16 and Olivia 32-100 had the same signature of FSK, and they do, which is far different from the signature of ROS. It is very clear that ROS is using Frequency Hopping, as the frequencies are not a function of the data, and that is a unique characteristic of frequency hopping, at least according to everything I could find. Olivia 32-1000: http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ OLIVIA32- 1000.JPG 73 - Skip KH6TY Warren Moxley wrote: Skip, can you show some more spectral comparison examples? This time add the widest Olivia mode and other very wide modes. Thanks in advance, Warren - K5WGM --- On *Fri, 2/26/10, KH6TY /kh...@comcast. net/* wrote: From: KH6TY kh...@comcast. net Subject: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle To: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Date: Friday, February 26, 2010, 8:11 AM Jose, my attempted help is to let you understand that the FCC believed you when you said ROS is FHSS, so you will fail in any attempt to reclassify ROS as just FKS144. The FCC will not believe you. What will probably succeed is for you to continue to describe ROS as FHSS and let the FCC permit it in the USA as long as it can be monitored, the bandwidth does not exceed the wide of a SSB phone signal, and it is not used in either the phone bands (data is illegal there anyway) or in the band segments where narrow modes, such as PSK31 are used because it is as wide as the entire PSK31 activity area. Look at the spectral comparison http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG. In the middle, I am sending data by MFSK16 (the letters N), and you can see that the frequencies are being determined by the data, which means it is not FHSS. But, in the middle of the ROS spectral display, I am doing the same thing, and there is no change to the frequencies being transmitted, obviously because the frequencies are independent of the data, which is requirement #2 in the ROS documentation for FHSS. This definitely implies ROS is FHSS. If you really want ROS to be legal here, just support a petition to the FCC to allow it. 73 - Skip KH6TY jose alberto nieto ros wrote: If you are waste time in try demostrate ROS is a SS, i think you are not trying help. *De:* KH6TY kh...@comcast. net *Para:* digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com *Enviado:* vie,26 febrero, 2010 14:36 *Asunto:* Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle jose alberto nieto ros wrote: I propose to moderator you will be banned if you continue saying stupid things in this group. Moderated for stupidity? Now that will be a first! Good luck with trying to fool the FCC. Spectral analysis suggests ROS really is FHSS, no matter what you now try to claim. This picture does not lie: http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG Too bad - ROS is a fun mode and I cannot use it in USA except on UHF. I have only tried to help find a way for US hams to use ROS. It will be an honor to be banned for my stupidity! :-) Please go ahead as you wish. 73, Skip KH6TY SK jose alberto nieto ros wrote: My friend, one thing is what i wrote, and other different is what ROS is. If recommend you waste your time in doing something by Ham Radio, instead of criticism ROS. I propose to moderator you will be banned if you continue saying stupid things in this group
Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle
Hi Skip, Does ROS have any flexibility like Olivia where you can change the Bandwidth? I am thinking it must not. SS modes that we all have experience with ( Cells, WiFi, etc ) seem to work well on top of each other and seem not to interfere with each other (for the most part). I was wondering if several hams using ROS that are one top of each other, does it work better than say, Olivia? Warren - K5WGM --- On Fri, 2/26/10, KH6TY kh...@comcast.net wrote: From: KH6TY kh...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 26, 2010, 8:27 AM Hi Warren, I have already captured a spectrum of Olivia 32-100 (i.e., FSK32) and posted it in a reply, but glad do it again.. You can see the fixed frequencies at idle and then the new frequencies added when data is sent (in the seared middle part). I have not combined that on one uploaded page with the ROS spectrum analysis, but you can easily compare the two yourself, using the ROS spectral analysys with MFSK16. I wanted to confirm that both MFSK16 and Olivia 32-100 had the same signature of FSK, and they do, which is far different from the signature of ROS. It is very clear that ROS is using Frequency Hopping, as the frequencies are not a function of the data, and that is a unique characteristic of frequency hopping, at least according to everything I could find. Olivia 32-1000: http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ OLIVIA32- 1000.JPG 73 - Skip KH6TY Warren Moxley wrote: Skip, can you show some more spectral comparison examples? This time add the widest Olivia mode and other very wide modes. Thanks in advance, Warren - K5WGM --- On Fri, 2/26/10, KH6TY kh...@comcast. net wrote: From: KH6TY kh...@comcast. net Subject: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle To: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Date: Friday, February 26, 2010, 8:11 AM Jose, my attempted help is to let you understand that the FCC believed you when you said ROS is FHSS, so you will fail in any attempt to reclassify ROS as just FKS144. The FCC will not believe you. What will probably succeed is for you to continue to describe ROS as FHSS and let the FCC permit it in the USA as long as it can be monitored, the bandwidth does not exceed the wide of a SSB phone signal, and it is not used in either the phone bands (data is illegal there anyway) or in the band segments where narrow modes, such as PSK31 are used because it is as wide as the entire PSK31 activity area. Look at the spectral comparison http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG. In the middle, I am sending data by MFSK16 (the letters N), and you can see that the frequencies are being determined by the data, which means it is not FHSS. But, in the middle of the ROS spectral display, I am doing the same thing, and there is no change to the frequencies being transmitted, obviously because the frequencies are independent of the data, which is requirement #2 in the ROS documentation for FHSS. This definitely implies ROS is FHSS. If you really want ROS to be legal here, just support a petition to the FCC to allow it. 73 - Skip KH6TY jose alberto nieto ros wrote: If you are waste time in try demostrate ROS is a SS, i think you are not trying help. De: KH6TY kh...@comcast. net Para: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Enviado: vie,26 febrero, 2010 14:36 Asunto: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle jose alberto nieto ros wrote: I propose to moderator you will be banned if you continue saying stupid things in this group. Moderated for stupidity? Now that will be a first! Good luck with trying to fool the FCC. Spectral analysis suggests ROS really is FHSS, no matter what you now try to claim. This picture does not lie: http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG Too bad - ROS is a fun mode and I cannot use it in USA except on UHF. I have only tried to help find a way for US hams to use ROS. It will be an honor to be banned for my stupidity! :-) Please go ahead as you wish. 73, Skip KH6TY SK jose alberto nieto ros wrote: My friend, one thing is what i wrote, and other different is what ROS is. If recommend you waste your time in doing something by Ham Radio, instead of criticism ROS. I propose to moderator you
Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle
Hi Warren, I do not know of any way to change bandwidth in ROS. My observations with ROS is that another ROS station on the same frequency will make ROS stop decoding the first station and start decoding the next. I don't know if it is a matter of strength, but I guess it is. The reason for this is that if the second station is weaker than the first, the first will continue decoding and I will not know there is another signal on the frequency, until one or the other fades. Any wideband signal, like Pactor, covering about the upper forth of the ROS signal also stops decoding. Olivia is much more narrow than ROS, so the chances of QRM to ROS are much greater, and harder to get away from, since ROS is so wide. Jose admits that QRM from wideband signals cannot be tolerated, but narrowband signals (like PSK31) can be, and I can understand that, but ROS is still a wideband signal, even if the tones are randomly spaced and separated a lot, and you can see what happens when one ROS signal comes on the frequency used by another ROS signal just by monitoring a popular ROS frequency. 14.101 is particularly bad for Pactor QRM, both from Pactor I, Pactor-II and Pactor-III. I don't use Olivia enough on HF to know how it handles same-frequency interference. I use Olivia daily only on UHF, where it works as well as SSB phone, or sometimes a little better, under severe Doppler flutter and QSB on 70cm DX. I am hoping that ROS will do even better. I think the 1 baud mode may be very good for real time VHF DX or EME QSO's. Unfortunately, we can only use ROS above 222, so 2m EME is not possible yet for us using ROS. I hope some day it will be. 73 - Skip KH6TY Warren Moxley wrote: Hi Skip, Does ROS have any flexibility like Olivia where you can change the Bandwidth? I am thinking it must not. SS modes that we all have experience with ( Cells, WiFi, etc ) seem to work well on top of each other and seem not to interfere with each other (for the most part). I was wondering if several hams using ROS that are one top of each other, does it work better than say, Olivia? Warren - K5WGM --- On *Fri, 2/26/10, KH6TY /kh...@comcast.net/* wrote: From: KH6TY kh...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 26, 2010, 8:27 AM Hi Warren, I have already captured a spectrum of Olivia 32-100 (i.e., FSK32) and posted it in a reply, but glad do it again.. You can see the fixed frequencies at idle and then the new frequencies added when data is sent (in the seared middle part). I have not combined that on one uploaded page with the ROS spectrum analysis, but you can easily compare the two yourself, using the ROS spectral analysys with MFSK16. I wanted to confirm that both MFSK16 and Olivia 32-100 had the same signature of FSK, and they do, which is far different from the signature of ROS. It is very clear that ROS is using Frequency Hopping, as the frequencies are not a function of the data, and that is a unique characteristic of frequency hopping, at least according to everything I could find. Olivia 32-1000: http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ OLIVIA32- 1000.JPG 73 - Skip KH6TY Warren Moxley wrote: Skip, can you show some more spectral comparison examples? This time add the widest Olivia mode and other very wide modes. Thanks in advance, Warren - K5WGM --- On *Fri, 2/26/10, KH6TY /kh...@comcast. net/* wrote: From: KH6TY kh...@comcast. net Subject: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle To: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Date: Friday, February 26, 2010, 8:11 AM Jose, my attempted help is to let you understand that the FCC believed you when you said ROS is FHSS, so you will fail in any attempt to reclassify ROS as just FKS144. The FCC will not believe you. What will probably succeed is for you to continue to describe ROS as FHSS and let the FCC permit it in the USA as long as it can be monitored, the bandwidth does not exceed the wide of a SSB phone signal, and it is not used in either the phone bands (data is illegal there anyway) or in the band segments where narrow modes, such as PSK31 are used because it is as wide as the entire PSK31 activity area. Look at the spectral comparison http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG. In the middle, I am sending data by MFSK16 (the letters N), and you can see that the frequencies are being determined by the data, which means it is not FHSS. But, in the middle of the ROS spectral display, I am doing the same thing, and there is no change to the frequencies being transmitted, obviously because the frequencies are independent
Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle
On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 06:29:23 -0500, KH6TY kh...@comcast.net said: [snip] It looks to me that the tone frequencies are clearly being generated independently from the data and then the data applied to the randomly generated frequency. There is NO pattern to ROS like there is to FSK modes, even to 32 tone FSK (Olivia 32-1000) or to 64 tone FSK (MT63-2000). This is a signature of FHSS. “/If/ it walks /like a duck/, quacks /like a duck/, /looks like a duck/, it must be a /duck/”. It sounds like US hams would run afowl of the law if they used ROS on HF, Skip. And then the FCC might waddle in and slap them all with a hefty bill. It looks like ROS really is FHSS when you look at it on a spectrum analyzer, and the spectrum analyzer does not lie. I guess ROS has taken a tern for the worse. And it doesn't help that it's author is now ducking the issue... :-P -- 73, Stelios, M0GLD.
Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle
Hi Warren, in the latest version that problem is fixed. Now ROS no decode new station until a first station has finished. Please, use latest version. Old version has thats problem, and when you have doubs about ROS is better you speak directly with the author of the mode. He is the only that know how it work. Thanks De: KH6TY kh...@comcast.net Para: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Enviado: vie,26 febrero, 2010 20:27 Asunto: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle Hi Warren, I do not know of any way to change bandwidth in ROS. My observations with ROS is that another ROS station on the same frequency will make ROS stop decoding the first station and start decoding the next. I don't know if it is a matter of strength, but I guess it is. The reason for this is that if the second station is weaker than the first, the first will continue decoding and I will not know there is another signal on the frequency, until one or the other fades. Any wideband signal, like Pactor, covering about the upper forth of the ROS signal also stops decoding. Olivia is much more narrow than ROS, so the chances of QRM to ROS are much greater, and harder to get away from, since ROS is so wide. Jose admits that QRM from wideband signals cannot be tolerated, but narrowband signals (like PSK31) can be, and I can understand that, but ROS is still a wideband signal, even if the tones are randomly spaced and separated a lot, and you can see what happens when one ROS signal comes on the frequency used by another ROS signal just by monitoring a popular ROS frequency. 14.101 is particularly bad for Pactor QRM, both from Pactor I, Pactor-II and Pactor-III. I don't use Olivia enough on HF to know how it handles same-frequency interference. I use Olivia daily only on UHF, where it works as well as SSB phone, or sometimes a little better, under severe Doppler flutter and QSB on 70cm DX. I am hoping that ROS will do even better. I think the 1 baud mode may be very good for real time VHF DX or EME QSO's. Unfortunately, we can only use ROS above 222, so 2m EME is not possible yet for us using ROS. I hope some day it will be. 73 - Skip KH6TY Warren Moxley wrote: Hi Skip, Does ROS have any flexibility like Olivia where you can change the Bandwidth? I am thinking it must not. SS modes that we all have experience with ( Cells, WiFi, etc ) seem to work well on top of each other and seem not to interfere with each other (for the most part). I was wondering if several hams using ROS that are one top of each other, does it work better than say, Olivia? Warren - K5WGM --- On Fri, 2/26/10, KH6TY kh...@comcast. net wrote: From: KH6TY kh...@comcast. net Subject: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle To: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Date: Friday, February 26, 2010, 8:27 AM Hi Warren, I have already captured a spectrum of Olivia 32-100 (i.e., FSK32) and posted it in a reply, but glad do it again.. You can see the fixed frequencies at idle and then the new frequencies added when data is sent (in the seared middle part). I have not combined that on one uploaded page with the ROS spectrum analysis, but you can easily compare the two yourself, using the ROS spectral analysys with MFSK16. I wanted to confirm that both MFSK16 and Olivia 32-100 had the same signature of FSK, and they do, which is far different from the signature of ROS. It is very clear that ROS is using Frequency Hopping, as the frequencies are not a function of the data, and that is a unique characteristic of frequency hopping, at least according to everything I could find. Olivia 32-1000: http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ OLIVIA32- 1000.JPG 73 - Skip KH6TY Warren Moxley wrote: Skip, can you show some more spectral comparison examples? This time add the widest Olivia mode and other very wide modes. Thanks in advance, Warren - K5WGM --- On Fri, 2/26/10, KH6TY kh...@comcast. net wrote: From: KH6TY kh...@comcast. net Subject: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle To: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Date: Friday, February 26, 2010, 8:11 AM Jose, my attempted help is to let you understand that the FCC believed you when you said ROS is FHSS, so you will fail in any attempt to reclassify ROS as just FKS144. The FCC will not believe you. What will probably succeed is for you to continue to describe ROS as FHSS and let the FCC permit it in the USA as long as it can be monitored, the bandwidth does not exceed the wide of a SSB phone signal, and it is not used in either the phone bands (data is illegal there anyway) or in the band segments where narrow modes, such as PSK31 are used because it is as wide as the entire PSK31 activity area. Look at the spectral comparison http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ SPECTRUM. JPG. In the middle, I am sending data by MFSK16 (the letters N), and you can see that the frequencies are being determined
Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle
Hi Jose, in the latest version that problem is fixed. Now ROS no decode new station until a first station has finished.Please, use latest version. Old version has thats problem You may be directing you statement to Skip. I have not downloaded ROS yet. I was waiting for your mode to mature a bit. I am very interested in new modes and am an always interested in experimented with them. you have doubs about ROS is better you speak directly with the author of the mode. He is the only that know how it work. I have no doubts, I was not really asking how ROS works, but am asking those who have played with the mode to date their real world experience. Jose, When you designed this mode, what were the major benefits you were going for over other modes like Olivia for example. I assumed that it was better resistance to QRM, is this correct? Thanks in advance, Warren - K5WGM --- On Fri, 2/26/10, jose alberto nieto ros nietoro...@yahoo.es wrote: From: jose alberto nieto ros nietoro...@yahoo.es Subject: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 26, 2010, 1:41 PM Hi Warren, in the latest version that problem is fixed. Now ROS no decode new station until a first station has finished. Please, use latest version. Old version has thats problem, and when you have doubs about ROS is better you speak directly with the author of the mode. He is the only that know how it work. Thanks De: KH6TY kh...@comcast. net Para: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Enviado: vie,26 febrero, 2010 20:27 Asunto: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle Hi Warren, I do not know of any way to change bandwidth in ROS. My observations with ROS is that another ROS station on the same frequency will make ROS stop decoding the first station and start decoding the next. I don't know if it is a matter of strength, but I guess it is. The reason for this is that if the second station is weaker than the first, the first will continue decoding and I will not know there is another signal on the frequency, until one or the other fades. Any wideband signal, like Pactor, covering about the upper forth of the ROS signal also stops decoding. Olivia is much more narrow than ROS, so the chances of QRM to ROS are much greater, and harder to get away from, since ROS is so wide. Jose admits that QRM from wideband signals cannot be tolerated, but narrowband signals (like PSK31) can be, and I can understand that, but ROS is still a wideband signal, even if the tones are randomly spaced and separated a lot, and you can see what happens when one ROS signal comes on the frequency used by another ROS signal just by monitoring a popular ROS frequency. 14.101 is particularly bad for Pactor QRM, both from Pactor I, Pactor-II and Pactor-III. I don't use Olivia enough on HF to know how it handles same-frequency interference. I use Olivia daily only on UHF, where it works as well as SSB phone, or sometimes a little better, under severe Doppler flutter and QSB on 70cm DX. I am hoping that ROS will do even better. I think the 1 baud mode may be very good for real time VHF DX or EME QSO's. Unfortunately, we can only use ROS above 222, so 2m EME is not possible yet for us using ROS. I hope some day it will be. 73 - Skip KH6TY Warren Moxley wrote: Hi Skip, Does ROS have any flexibility like Olivia where you can change the Bandwidth? I am thinking it must not. SS modes that we all have experience with ( Cells, WiFi, etc ) seem to work well on top of each other and seem not to interfere with each other (for the most part). I was wondering if several hams using ROS that are one top of each other, does it work better than say, Olivia? Warren - K5WGM --- On Fri, 2/26/10, KH6TY kh...@comcast. net wrote: From: KH6TY kh...@comcast. net Subject: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle To: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Date: Friday, February 26, 2010, 8:27 AM Hi Warren, I have already captured a spectrum of Olivia 32-100 (i.e., FSK32) and posted it in a reply, but glad do it again.. You can see the fixed frequencies at idle and then the new frequencies added when data is sent (in the seared middle part). I have not combined that on one uploaded page with the ROS spectrum analysis, but you can easily compare the two yourself, using the ROS spectral analysys with MFSK16. I wanted to confirm that both MFSK16 and Olivia 32-100 had the same signature of FSK, and they do, which is far different from the signature of ROS. It is very clear that ROS is using Frequency Hopping, as the frequencies are not a function of the data, and that is a unique characteristic of frequency hopping, at least according to everything I could find. Olivia 32-1000: http://home. comcast.net/ ~hteller/ OLIVIA32- 1000.JPG 73 - Skip KH6TY Warren Moxley wrote: Skip, can you show some
Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle
It is correct, especially in multipath channels (HF). And remember that ROS 16 is two times more fast than OLIVIA 32/1000. Despite that, it is more robust. De: Warren Moxley k5...@yahoo.com Para: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Enviado: vie,26 febrero, 2010 21:37 Asunto: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle Hi Jose, in the latest version that problem is fixed. Now ROS no decode new station until a first station has finished.Please, use latest version. Old version has thats problem You may be directing you statement to Skip. I have not downloaded ROS yet. I was waiting for your mode to mature a bit. I am very interested in new modes and am an always interested in experimented with them. you have doubs about ROS is better you speak directly with the author of the mode. He is the only that know how it work. I have no doubts, I was not really asking how ROS works, but am asking those who have played with the mode to date their real world experience. Jose, When you designed this mode, what were the major benefits you were going for over other modes like Olivia for example. I assumed that it was better resistance to QRM, is this correct? Thanks in advance, Warren - K5WGM --- On Fri, 2/26/10, jose alberto nieto ros nietoro...@yahoo. es wrote: From: jose alberto nieto ros nietoro...@yahoo. es Subject: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle To: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Date: Friday, February 26, 2010, 1:41 PM Hi Warren, in the latest version that problem is fixed. Now ROS no decode new station until a first station has finished. Please, use latest version. Old version has thats problem, and when you have doubs about ROS is better you speak directly with the author of the mode. He is the only that know how it work. Thanks De: KH6TY kh...@comcast. net Para: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Enviado: vie,26 febrero, 2010 20:27 Asunto: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle Hi Warren, I do not know of any way to change bandwidth in ROS. My observations with ROS is that another ROS station on the same frequency will make ROS stop decoding the first station and start decoding the next. I don't know if it is a matter of strength, but I guess it is. The reason for this is that if the second station is weaker than the first, the first will continue decoding and I will not know there is another signal on the frequency, until one or the other fades. Any wideband signal, like Pactor, covering about the upper forth of the ROS signal also stops decoding. Olivia is much more narrow than ROS, so the chances of QRM to ROS are much greater, and harder to get away from, since ROS is so wide. Jose admits that QRM from wideband signals cannot be tolerated, but narrowband signals (like PSK31) can be, and I can understand that, but ROS is still a wideband signal, even if the tones are randomly spaced and separated a lot, and you can see what happens when one ROS signal comes on the frequency used by another ROS signal just by monitoring a popular ROS frequency. 14.101 is particularly bad for Pactor QRM, both from Pactor I, Pactor-II and Pactor-III. I don't use Olivia enough on HF to know how it handles same-frequency interference. I use Olivia daily only on UHF, where it works as well as SSB phone, or sometimes a little better, under severe Doppler flutter and QSB on 70cm DX. I am hoping that ROS will do even better. I think the 1 baud mode may be very good for real time VHF DX or EME QSO's. Unfortunately, we can only use ROS above 222, so 2m EME is not possible yet for us using ROS. I hope some day it will be. 73 - Skip KH6TY Warren Moxley wrote: Hi Skip, Does ROS have any flexibility like Olivia where you can change the Bandwidth? I am thinking it must not. SS modes that we all have experience with ( Cells, WiFi, etc ) seem to work well on top of each other and seem not to interfere with each other (for the most part). I was wondering if several hams using ROS that are one top of each other, does it work better than say, Olivia? Warren - K5WGM --- On Fri, 2/26/10, KH6TY kh...@comcast. net wrote: From: KH6TY kh...@comcast. net Subject: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle To: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Date: Friday, February 26, 2010, 8:27 AM Hi Warren, I have already captured a spectrum of Olivia 32-100 (i.e., FSK32) and posted it in a reply, but glad do it again.. You can see the fixed frequencies at idle and then the new frequencies added when data is sent (in the seared middle part). I have not combined that on one uploaded page with the ROS spectrum analysis, but you can easily compare the two yourself, using the ROS spectral analysys with MFSK16. I wanted to confirm that both MFSK16 and Olivia 32-100 had the same signature of FSK, and they do, which is far different from the signature of ROS. It is very clear
Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle
Warren, Please allow me put my two cents. I would not expect so if the spreading code is the same. The adventage of CDMA is code orthogonality, each user has a different chipping code that has little correlation with other user's codes., and so, there is little mutual QRM. As far as I have seen, ROS uses a 3 kHz fixed bandwidth, irrespective of signalling speed. ROS 16 is affected by packet, pactor 2 and other ROS users QRM, printing only garbage in such cases. ROS 16 looks good on a clear channel, but crumbles under QRM. Not to be surprising when confined to just 3 kHz. Anyone can figure out just by listening on 14101. Perhaps ROS 1 fares better, but so far I can't tell. To me, so far, Olivia is the toughest chat mode, and includes a lot (perhaps, too much!) flexibility. Likewise, JT65A if you want to squeeze QSO's out of thin air, but is hardly conversational at all. You can, in very short sentences (believe it is 13 characters), but you lose the adventage of some special hard coded short hand sentences (RRR, RO, 73 and such). Not a big penalty, but nevertheless, a penalty. 73, Jose, CO2JA El 26/02/2010 01:42 p.m., Warren Moxley escribió: Hi Skip, Does ROS have any flexibility like Olivia where you can change the Bandwidth? I am thinking it must not. SS modes that we all have experience with ( Cells, WiFi, etc ) seem to work well on top of each other and seem not to interfere with each other (for the most part). I was wondering if several hams using ROS that are one top of each other, does it work better than say, Olivia? Warren - K5WGM
Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle
Hi Jose, When all users are using latest version of ROS then you will see as other ROS not interference with ROS. About packet, pactor 2, etc... it's obvious . They occuped an important part of spectrum. have you tested what happen if Olivia is tx over other Olivia? or over packet? Some things are of sense common De: José A. Amador ama...@electrica.cujae.edu.cu Para: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Enviado: vie,26 febrero, 2010 20:33 Asunto: Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle Warren, Please allow me put my two cents. I would not expect so if the spreading code is the same. The adventage of CDMA is code orthogonality, each user has a different chipping code that has little correlation with other user's codes., and so, there is little mutual QRM. As far as I have seen, ROS uses a 3 kHz fixed bandwidth, irrespective of signalling speed. ROS 16 is affected by packet, pactor 2 and other ROS users QRM, printing only garbage in such cases. ROS 16 looks good on a clear channel, but crumbles under QRM. Not to be surprising when confined to just 3 kHz. Anyone can figure out just by listening on 14101. Perhaps ROS 1 fares better, but so far I can't tell. To me, so far, Olivia is the toughest chat mode, and includes a lot (perhaps, too much!) flexibility. Likewise, JT65A if you want to squeeze QSO's out of thin air, but is hardly conversational at all. You can, in very short sentences (believe it is 13 characters), but you lose the adventage of some special hard coded short hand sentences (RRR, RO, 73 and such). Not a big penalty, but nevertheless, a penalty. 73, Jose, CO2JA El 26/02/2010 01:42 p.m., Warren Moxley escribió: Hi Skip, Does ROS have any flexibility like Olivia where you can change the Bandwidth? I am thinking it must not. SS modes that we all have experience with ( Cells, WiFi, etc ) seem to work well on top of each other and seem not to interfere with each other (for the most part). I was wondering if several hams using ROS that are one top of each other, does it work better than say, Olivia? Warren - K5WGM
Re: [digitalradio] ROS carrier pattern when idle
No, I have not, because Olivia is usually found in different frequencies than those where packet activity is found on this side of planet Earth, and in general, packet sysops and Olivia users know their way around and do not step over others toes. Very seldom I have experienced Olivia to Olivia QRM, I have heard the other's tones showing up near to the frequency I have been using, it has shown up on the waterfall but it did no impairment to reception. I have to add that I only have copied one side of the other's QSO, so it is quite likely that he did not hear my correspondent either. Nothing to create fuss about. El 26/02/2010 18:06, jose alberto nieto ros escribió: have you tested what happen if Olivia is tx over other Olivia? or over packet?
