RE: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Yes there is an International Standard for OOXML.  I *suspect* that the
provision of two-different Save As ... cases is (1) for the Transitional
Standard OOXML which is the closest to what is acceptable by all Microsoft
Office applications that accept .docx, .xlsx, and .pptx, and (2) for Strict
Standard OOXML that is accepted only by Office 2010 and 2013 and can be
produced by 2013.  I have no idea how close the alignment of LibreOffice is
to those two flavors of Standard OOXML, which is a different question.
There are those who think that Transitional is somehow not truly OOXML, but
both are specified in the International Standard.  Microsoft Office also
takes advantage of the extension mechanism, MCE, that is provided in the
International Standard.  I don't know how that sorts out in the
interoperability between LibreOffice and Microsoft Office using OOXML.

The Wikipedia article is not bad.  However, there has been significant
maintenance of IS 29500:2008 and that has impacted the original separation
of Transitional and Strict by making them syntactically separate while
having considerable overlap in terms of function and semantics.  The current
edition of the International Standard for OOXML is IS 29500:2012.  There is
also an in-process amendment.

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: lj [mailto:ljelou...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 15:38
To: Simon Phipps
Cc: Jonathan Aquilina; Boudi van Vlijmen; discuss@documentfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness

Isn't there a standard Office Open XML Document Format?
What is the difference between office open xml and standard microsoft docx
formats in LibreOffice and why does LibreOffice include both?
is there also a link where I can read about this... the only think I have
found useful is what open xml is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_Open_XML






On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 9:53 AM, Simon Phipps  wrote:

> I don't know anyone who uses Office so I'm afraid I can't answer. That's
> why I send PDFs - everyone can open those and see the same document.
>
> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 5:56 PM, Jonathan Aquilina  >wrote:
>
> > My question though Simon is how well is ODF formatting preserved when
> > opening up ODF formats in office 2010 and above on windows.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Simon Phipps [mailto:si...@webmink.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 4:11 PM
> > To: Boudi van Vlijmen
> > Cc: discuss@documentfoundation.org
> > Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness
> >
> > I generally advise people to send me PDFs rather than editable documents
> > unless there's a real need for me to edit them. That way there's no risk
> > anyone will get locked-in to anything :-)
> >
> > If I *do* need to be able to edit I request Hybrid PDF files, which are
> > PDFs
> > with the original ODF source embedded. They are easy to make with
> > LibreOffice and I've created a tutorial here:
> > http://webmink.com/2012/05/07/making-hybrid-pdfs/
> >
> > S.
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 8:15 AM, Boudi van Vlijmen
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Friends,
> > >
> > > Every email I send has the footer as in this one.
> > >
> > > The purpose is to achieve;
> > >
> > >1. Vendor-lock-in awarness
> > >2. Hook in on the society learning curve status.
> > >
> > > The message is:
> > > ODT in place of DOC/DOCX,
> > > ODS in place of XLS/XLSX,
> > > ODP in place of PPT/PPTX.
> > >
> > > ODF is one bridge to far. People think in DOC, XLS and PPT. To get
> > > them away from that we should start from there. Not with a high level
> > > ODF concept!
> > >
> > > Met vriendelijke groet,
> > > Kind regards,
> > > Boudi van Vlijmen 
> > >
> > >   *Werk documenten*
> > > ODT, gDoc, DOC, DOCX
> > > ODS, gSheet, XLS, XLSX
> > > en ODP, gSlides, PPT, PPTX
> > >  *Distributie en Archivering*
> > > PDF/A 
> > >
> > >
> > >   [image: Inline image 1]
> > >  [image: Inline image 1]
> > >   *Open standards or Open Wallets that is the question! Waak over uw
> > > onafhankelijkheid!
> > > *
> > > http://forumstandaardisatie.nl/
> > > Beleidsquote "Rijksdiensten moeten vanaf april 2008 ODF ondersteunen.
> > > Mede-overheden en overige instellingen volgen uiterlijk december 2008.
> > > ODF = .odt voor tekst, .ods voor spreadsheets, .odp voor presentaties"
> > > Vendor-lock
> > > safe formats 
> > >  http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument
> > > **
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
> > Problems?
> > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> > List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
> > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> > deleted
> >
> >
> > -
> > No virus found in this message.
> > 

RE: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness

[Jonathan Aquilina]

On first run though they give you the option to choose the XML or ODF format
on 2010 and upwards

 

From: lj [mailto:ljelou...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 08 February 2013 00:38
To: Simon Phipps
Cc: Jonathan Aquilina; Boudi van Vlijmen; discuss@documentfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness

 

Isn't there a standard Office Open XML Document Format?

What is the difference between office open xml and standard microsoft docx
formats in LibreOffice and why does LibreOffice include both?

is there also a link where I can read about this... the only think I have
found useful is what open xml is.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_Open_XML

 

 

 

 

 

On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 9:53 AM, Simon Phipps  wrote:

I don't know anyone who uses Office so I'm afraid I can't answer. That's
why I send PDFs - everyone can open those and see the same document.

On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 5:56 PM, Jonathan Aquilina
wrote:


> My question though Simon is how well is ODF formatting preserved when
> opening up ODF formats in office 2010 and above on windows.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Simon Phipps [mailto:si...@webmink.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 4:11 PM
> To: Boudi van Vlijmen
> Cc: discuss@documentfoundation.org
> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness
>
> I generally advise people to send me PDFs rather than editable documents
> unless there's a real need for me to edit them. That way there's no risk
> anyone will get locked-in to anything :-)
>
> If I *do* need to be able to edit I request Hybrid PDF files, which are
> PDFs
> with the original ODF source embedded. They are easy to make with
> LibreOffice and I've created a tutorial here:
> http://webmink.com/2012/05/07/making-hybrid-pdfs/
>
> S.
>
> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 8:15 AM, Boudi van Vlijmen
> wrote:
>
> > Friends,
> >
> > Every email I send has the footer as in this one.
> >
> > The purpose is to achieve;
> >
> >1. Vendor-lock-in awarness
> >2. Hook in on the society learning curve status.
> >
> > The message is:
> > ODT in place of DOC/DOCX,
> > ODS in place of XLS/XLSX,
> > ODP in place of PPT/PPTX.
> >
> > ODF is one bridge to far. People think in DOC, XLS and PPT. To get
> > them away from that we should start from there. Not with a high level
> > ODF concept!
> >
> > Met vriendelijke groet,
> > Kind regards,
> > Boudi van Vlijmen 
> >
> >   *Werk documenten*
> > ODT, gDoc, DOC, DOCX
> > ODS, gSheet, XLS, XLSX
> > en ODP, gSlides, PPT, PPTX
> >  *Distributie en Archivering*
> > PDF/A 
> >
> >
> >   [image: Inline image 1]
> >  [image: Inline image 1]
> >   *Open standards or Open Wallets that is the question! Waak over uw
> > onafhankelijkheid!
> > *
> > http://forumstandaardisatie.nl/
> > Beleidsquote "Rijksdiensten moeten vanaf april 2008 ODF ondersteunen.
> > Mede-overheden en overige instellingen volgen uiterlijk december 2008.
> > ODF = .odt voor tekst, .ods voor spreadsheets, .odp voor presentaties"
> > Vendor-lock
> > safe formats 
> >  http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument
> > **
> >
>
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
 
> Problems?
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>
>
> -
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6087 - Release Date: 02/07/13
>
> -
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6087 - Release Date: 02/07/13
>
>


--

*Simon Phipps*  http://webmink.com
*Meshed Insights & Knowledge *
*Office:* +1 (415) 683-7660   *or* +44
(238) 098 7027  
*Mobile*:  +44 774 776 2816  *

*

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
 
Problems?
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
deleted

 


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [tdf-discuss] "Check for updates" still shows 3.6.5 in LibreOffice (3.6.1.2)

[webmaster-Kracked_P_P]

On 02/07/2013 07:06 PM, Immanuel Giulea wrote:

I currently have 3.6.1.2 installed and when I clicked on "Check for
updates" it only shows me 3.6.5
Is this normal ??

Immanuel



3.6.5 is the newest of that line.

As far as I know, that is the way it goes, so far.

If the system for the update message is meant to give you the next line 
then if you have two lines there which one do you update to?  3.6.5 to 
3.6.6/3.6.7 or to 4.0.x?  That would make a confusion.


I would update to 3.6.5 for the next few weeks.  If you really want 
4.0.0 instead, then by then most issues with it will be known soonand 
you will be forewarned. I run 3.6.5 on my desktop - main system - and 
will test 4.0.0 out on my testing laptopfor a bit.


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[tdf-discuss] "Check for updates" still shows 3.6.5 in LibreOffice (3.6.1.2)

[Immanuel Giulea]

I currently have 3.6.1.2 installed and when I clicked on "Check for
updates" it only shows me 3.6.5
Is this normal ??

Immanuel

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness

[lj]

Isn't there a standard Office Open XML Document Format?
What is the difference between office open xml and standard microsoft docx
formats in LibreOffice and why does LibreOffice include both?
is there also a link where I can read about this... the only think I have
found useful is what open xml is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_Open_XML






On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 9:53 AM, Simon Phipps  wrote:

> I don't know anyone who uses Office so I'm afraid I can't answer. That's
> why I send PDFs - everyone can open those and see the same document.
>
> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 5:56 PM, Jonathan Aquilina  >wrote:
>
> > My question though Simon is how well is ODF formatting preserved when
> > opening up ODF formats in office 2010 and above on windows.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Simon Phipps [mailto:si...@webmink.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 4:11 PM
> > To: Boudi van Vlijmen
> > Cc: discuss@documentfoundation.org
> > Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness
> >
> > I generally advise people to send me PDFs rather than editable documents
> > unless there's a real need for me to edit them. That way there's no risk
> > anyone will get locked-in to anything :-)
> >
> > If I *do* need to be able to edit I request Hybrid PDF files, which are
> > PDFs
> > with the original ODF source embedded. They are easy to make with
> > LibreOffice and I've created a tutorial here:
> > http://webmink.com/2012/05/07/making-hybrid-pdfs/
> >
> > S.
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 8:15 AM, Boudi van Vlijmen
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Friends,
> > >
> > > Every email I send has the footer as in this one.
> > >
> > > The purpose is to achieve;
> > >
> > >1. Vendor-lock-in awarness
> > >2. Hook in on the society learning curve status.
> > >
> > > The message is:
> > > ODT in place of DOC/DOCX,
> > > ODS in place of XLS/XLSX,
> > > ODP in place of PPT/PPTX.
> > >
> > > ODF is one bridge to far. People think in DOC, XLS and PPT. To get
> > > them away from that we should start from there. Not with a high level
> > > ODF concept!
> > >
> > > Met vriendelijke groet,
> > > Kind regards,
> > > Boudi van Vlijmen 
> > >
> > >   *Werk documenten*
> > > ODT, gDoc, DOC, DOCX
> > > ODS, gSheet, XLS, XLSX
> > > en ODP, gSlides, PPT, PPTX
> > >  *Distributie en Archivering*
> > > PDF/A 
> > >
> > >
> > >   [image: Inline image 1]
> > >  [image: Inline image 1]
> > >   *Open standards or Open Wallets that is the question! Waak over uw
> > > onafhankelijkheid!
> > > *
> > > http://forumstandaardisatie.nl/
> > > Beleidsquote "Rijksdiensten moeten vanaf april 2008 ODF ondersteunen.
> > > Mede-overheden en overige instellingen volgen uiterlijk december 2008.
> > > ODF = .odt voor tekst, .ods voor spreadsheets, .odp voor presentaties"
> > > Vendor-lock
> > > safe formats 
> > >  http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument
> > > **
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
> > Problems?
> > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> > List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
> > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> > deleted
> >
> >
> > -
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6087 - Release Date: 02/07/13
> >
> > -
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6087 - Release Date: 02/07/13
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> *Simon Phipps*  http://webmink.com
> *Meshed Insights & Knowledge *
> *Office:* +1 (415) 683-7660 *or* +44 (238) 098 7027
> *Mobile*:  +44 774 776 2816*
> *
>
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
> Problems?
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>
>

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness

[Simon Phipps]

I don't know anyone who uses Office so I'm afraid I can't answer. That's
why I send PDFs - everyone can open those and see the same document.

On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 5:56 PM, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:

> My question though Simon is how well is ODF formatting preserved when
> opening up ODF formats in office 2010 and above on windows.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Simon Phipps [mailto:si...@webmink.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 4:11 PM
> To: Boudi van Vlijmen
> Cc: discuss@documentfoundation.org
> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness
>
> I generally advise people to send me PDFs rather than editable documents
> unless there's a real need for me to edit them. That way there's no risk
> anyone will get locked-in to anything :-)
>
> If I *do* need to be able to edit I request Hybrid PDF files, which are
> PDFs
> with the original ODF source embedded. They are easy to make with
> LibreOffice and I've created a tutorial here:
> http://webmink.com/2012/05/07/making-hybrid-pdfs/
>
> S.
>
> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 8:15 AM, Boudi van Vlijmen
> wrote:
>
> > Friends,
> >
> > Every email I send has the footer as in this one.
> >
> > The purpose is to achieve;
> >
> >1. Vendor-lock-in awarness
> >2. Hook in on the society learning curve status.
> >
> > The message is:
> > ODT in place of DOC/DOCX,
> > ODS in place of XLS/XLSX,
> > ODP in place of PPT/PPTX.
> >
> > ODF is one bridge to far. People think in DOC, XLS and PPT. To get
> > them away from that we should start from there. Not with a high level
> > ODF concept!
> >
> > Met vriendelijke groet,
> > Kind regards,
> > Boudi van Vlijmen 
> >
> >   *Werk documenten*
> > ODT, gDoc, DOC, DOCX
> > ODS, gSheet, XLS, XLSX
> > en ODP, gSlides, PPT, PPTX
> >  *Distributie en Archivering*
> > PDF/A 
> >
> >
> >   [image: Inline image 1]
> >  [image: Inline image 1]
> >   *Open standards or Open Wallets that is the question! Waak over uw
> > onafhankelijkheid!
> > *
> > http://forumstandaardisatie.nl/
> > Beleidsquote "Rijksdiensten moeten vanaf april 2008 ODF ondersteunen.
> > Mede-overheden en overige instellingen volgen uiterlijk december 2008.
> > ODF = .odt voor tekst, .ods voor spreadsheets, .odp voor presentaties"
> > Vendor-lock
> > safe formats 
> >  http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument
> > **
> >
>
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
> Problems?
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>
>
> -
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6087 - Release Date: 02/07/13
>
> -
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6087 - Release Date: 02/07/13
>
>


-- 
*Simon Phipps*  http://webmink.com
*Meshed Insights & Knowledge *
*Office:* +1 (415) 683-7660 *or* +44 (238) 098 7027
*Mobile*:  +44 774 776 2816*
*

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [tdf-discuss] Huge problems with big documents

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Georgio,

Giorgio Migliaccio wrote (07-02-13 09:07)


We’re using LibreOffice (since v2.x up to 4.0 beta) inside our
product LetterSketch, which was started 7 years ago. [...]


Good to read from you, after we've met in Gouda, last year!


[...]
Is there any kind of suggestion you can give us to overcome this
problem/limitation, since this is going to be a major showstopper for
our project.


We know that there already have been considerable memory usage 
improvements in LibreOffice after the making free ...


Looking at your use case, I would seriously suggest you to get in 
contact with a developer knowing 'that code area', or with a company 
sponsoring some of those guys (or girls). We have various active in TDF.


It's one of the many advantages of LibreOffice / TDF: that you can 
choose a route at your choise, to get improvements in. And especially 
when there is a interesting, big, business case, that is both healthy 
for your product and the LibreOffice project.


Kind regards,
Cor

--
 - Cor
 - http://nl.libreoffice.org
 - www.librelex.org


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

RE: [tdf-discuss] Huge problems with big documents

[Giorgio Migliaccio]

Our customers are just normal non-technical end-users which are used to work 
with MS Word for creating documents. 
We provide them with a solution where they an continue to work with something 
like they already know, LibreOffice replacing MS Word, and extend it with all 
kind of automation possibilities. 
Any other offering wouldn't be accepted by our customers, because it would mean 
a major training is needed for hundreds to thousands of employees, I'm sure I 
don't have to tell you how much money that would cost, right? 
You just have to learn to live with the fact that not every person on this 
planet has sufficient technical background to start working with applications 
like Lyx, how powerful such applications even might be. 
Conditions, loops and variables are just point and click stuff in LetterSketch, 
so that most non-technical people can build such templates.

And believe it or not, we are just one of a couple of hundred(thousands?) 
companies worldwide doing this, with competitors like HP, IBM and DOC1 being 
market leaders, and such products are being used by any (really *any*) major 
bank, insurance company, or whatever company in the world for customer or 
internal communication... that's just a fact

We, and our customers, use XML for transferring data. The data in the XML 
however can come from databases, Salesforce.com, Excel files, web forms, 
Navision, and then some. 
Some of them might have a DB behind them, but most of the the large banks or 
insurance companies won't give external parties direct access to their 
DB's...you must surely know that.
Using Sax XML processing, complex documents can be generated in milliseconds, 
making it possible to generate millions of documents in 24 hours. Not too bad I 
would say.

The 113 pages is just the template from which the generations will start. This 
can result in a 5 page document or even in a 10.000 page document, depending on 
the data and business rules.

Regards,
Giorgio


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [tdf-discuss] Huge problems with big documents

[Wolfgang Keller]

> LetterSketch is a document authoring tool with which authors can
> create documents and extend it with conditions, loops, variables, sub
> documents and other ornaments. 



Sounds like *the* use case where LyX/LaTeX is beyond competition.

Because it has all this already built-in.



> Finally this template gets compiled to an internal format and finally
> it can be generated on a server in high volume by feeding it data in
> XML format.

Data is best fed from a database (LyX/LaTeX has "native" solutions for
this as well). XML was never made for data and it's hopelessly
inefficient (both in terms of volume as well as required processing
bandwidth) as a format for large amounts of data. 

> At the customer we created a template/document containing 113 pages,
> built up with plain text, various objects like comments and frames,
> and dozens of sub-documents and where it takes some 10-20 minutes to
> just open the template.

113 pages is not at all a "big" document. Unless that's just the "root"
document.
 
> Please find attached the concerning (main) document.

This list doesn't allow attachments.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

RE: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Based on limited anecdotal evidence (my own), Office 2010 support for ODF
formats seems to be about the same as in Office 2007.  For Office 2013, I am
always startled by how well Excel 2013 (Preview) works with .ods files now
that OpenFormula is supported.  On the other hand, in my few trials with
.odt files I personally experienced some unexpected defects when opening
them in Word 2013 (Preview).  

This is not a systematic analysis and I don't know where one will find one.
The Word cases were unexpected and I wonder if there are some sort of
difference in the interpretation of the ODF 1.2 specification that needs to
be hammered out.  But that's shear speculation on my part.  It is
unfortunate that venues such as the ODF Interoperability and Conformance TC
and the Plugfests held within the EU are not exploited more to identify and
eliminate some of these problems.  

(Unless I've missed something, only Microsoft has made available a large
collection of test/sample documents, presumably ones that Office does well.
Apache OpenOffice is discussing ways to provide a contributed compilation
from other sources that can be used openly but I don't know if any action is
pending.)

 - Dennis 

-Original Message-
From: Jonathan Aquilina [mailto:eagles051...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 09:57
To: 'Simon Phipps'; 'Boudi van Vlijmen'
Cc: discuss@documentfoundation.org
Subject: RE: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness

My question though Simon is how well is ODF formatting preserved when
opening up ODF formats in office 2010 and above on windows.

-Original Message-
From: Simon Phipps [mailto:si...@webmink.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 4:11 PM
To: Boudi van Vlijmen
Cc: discuss@documentfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness

I generally advise people to send me PDFs rather than editable documents
unless there's a real need for me to edit them. That way there's no risk
anyone will get locked-in to anything :-)

If I *do* need to be able to edit I request Hybrid PDF files, which are PDFs
with the original ODF source embedded. They are easy to make with
LibreOffice and I've created a tutorial here:
http://webmink.com/2012/05/07/making-hybrid-pdfs/

S.

On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 8:15 AM, Boudi van Vlijmen
wrote:

> Friends,
>
> Every email I send has the footer as in this one.
>
> The purpose is to achieve;
>
>1. Vendor-lock-in awarness
>2. Hook in on the society learning curve status.
>
> The message is:
> ODT in place of DOC/DOCX,
> ODS in place of XLS/XLSX,
> ODP in place of PPT/PPTX.
>
> ODF is one bridge to far. People think in DOC, XLS and PPT. To get 
> them away from that we should start from there. Not with a high level 
> ODF concept!
>
> Met vriendelijke groet,
> Kind regards,
> Boudi van Vlijmen 
>
>   *Werk documenten*
> ODT, gDoc, DOC, DOCX
> ODS, gSheet, XLS, XLSX
> en ODP, gSlides, PPT, PPTX
>  *Distributie en Archivering*
> PDF/A 
>
>
>   [image: Inline image 1]
>  [image: Inline image 1]
>   *Open standards or Open Wallets that is the question! Waak over uw 
> onafhankelijkheid!
> *
> http://forumstandaardisatie.nl/
> Beleidsquote "Rijksdiensten moeten vanaf april 2008 ODF ondersteunen.
> Mede-overheden en overige instellingen volgen uiterlijk december 2008.
> ODF = .odt voor tekst, .ods voor spreadsheets, .odp voor presentaties"
> Vendor-lock
> safe formats 
>  http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument
> **
>

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Problems?
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
deleted


-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6087 - Release Date: 02/07/13

-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6087 - Release Date: 02/07/13


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Problems?
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
deleted


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

RE: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

+1

-Original Message-
From: Simon Phipps [mailto:si...@webmink.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 07:11
To: Boudi van Vlijmen
Cc: discuss@documentfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness

I generally advise people to send me PDFs rather than editable documents
unless there's a real need for me to edit them. That way there's no risk
anyone will get locked-in to anything :-)

If I *do* need to be able to edit I request Hybrid PDF files, which are
PDFs with the original ODF source embedded. They are easy to make with
LibreOffice and I've created a tutorial here:
http://webmink.com/2012/05/07/making-hybrid-pdfs/

S.

On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 8:15 AM, Boudi van Vlijmen
wrote:

> Friends,
>
> Every email I send has the footer as in this one.
>
> The purpose is to achieve;
>
>1. Vendor-lock-in awarness
>2. Hook in on the society learning curve status.
>
> The message is:
> ODT in place of DOC/DOCX,
> ODS in place of XLS/XLSX,
> ODP in place of PPT/PPTX.
>
> ODF is one bridge to far. People think in DOC, XLS and PPT. To get them
> away from that we should start from there. Not with a high level ODF
> concept!
[ ... ]


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

RE: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness

[Jonathan Aquilina]

My question though Simon is how well is ODF formatting preserved when
opening up ODF formats in office 2010 and above on windows.

-Original Message-
From: Simon Phipps [mailto:si...@webmink.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 4:11 PM
To: Boudi van Vlijmen
Cc: discuss@documentfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness

I generally advise people to send me PDFs rather than editable documents
unless there's a real need for me to edit them. That way there's no risk
anyone will get locked-in to anything :-)

If I *do* need to be able to edit I request Hybrid PDF files, which are PDFs
with the original ODF source embedded. They are easy to make with
LibreOffice and I've created a tutorial here:
http://webmink.com/2012/05/07/making-hybrid-pdfs/

S.

On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 8:15 AM, Boudi van Vlijmen
wrote:

> Friends,
>
> Every email I send has the footer as in this one.
>
> The purpose is to achieve;
>
>1. Vendor-lock-in awarness
>2. Hook in on the society learning curve status.
>
> The message is:
> ODT in place of DOC/DOCX,
> ODS in place of XLS/XLSX,
> ODP in place of PPT/PPTX.
>
> ODF is one bridge to far. People think in DOC, XLS and PPT. To get 
> them away from that we should start from there. Not with a high level 
> ODF concept!
>
> Met vriendelijke groet,
> Kind regards,
> Boudi van Vlijmen 
>
>   *Werk documenten*
> ODT, gDoc, DOC, DOCX
> ODS, gSheet, XLS, XLSX
> en ODP, gSlides, PPT, PPTX
>  *Distributie en Archivering*
> PDF/A 
>
>
>   [image: Inline image 1]
>  [image: Inline image 1]
>   *Open standards or Open Wallets that is the question! Waak over uw 
> onafhankelijkheid!
> *
> http://forumstandaardisatie.nl/
> Beleidsquote "Rijksdiensten moeten vanaf april 2008 ODF ondersteunen.
> Mede-overheden en overige instellingen volgen uiterlijk december 2008.
> ODF = .odt voor tekst, .ods voor spreadsheets, .odp voor presentaties"
> Vendor-lock
> safe formats 
>  http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument
> **
>

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Problems?
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
deleted


-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6087 - Release Date: 02/07/13

-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6087 - Release Date: 02/07/13


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness

[Simon Phipps]

I generally advise people to send me PDFs rather than editable documents
unless there's a real need for me to edit them. That way there's no risk
anyone will get locked-in to anything :-)

If I *do* need to be able to edit I request Hybrid PDF files, which are
PDFs with the original ODF source embedded. They are easy to make with
LibreOffice and I've created a tutorial here:
http://webmink.com/2012/05/07/making-hybrid-pdfs/

S.

On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 8:15 AM, Boudi van Vlijmen wrote:

> Friends,
>
> Every email I send has the footer as in this one.
>
> The purpose is to achieve;
>
>1. Vendor-lock-in awarness
>2. Hook in on the society learning curve status.
>
> The message is:
> ODT in place of DOC/DOCX,
> ODS in place of XLS/XLSX,
> ODP in place of PPT/PPTX.
>
> ODF is one bridge to far. People think in DOC, XLS and PPT. To get them
> away from that we should start from there. Not with a high level ODF
> concept!
>
> Met vriendelijke groet,
> Kind regards,
> Boudi van Vlijmen 
>
>   *Werk documenten*
> ODT, gDoc, DOC, DOCX
> ODS, gSheet, XLS, XLSX
> en ODP, gSlides, PPT, PPTX
>  *Distributie en Archivering*
> PDF/A 
>
>
>   [image: Inline image 1]
>  [image: Inline image 1]
>   *Open standards or Open Wallets that is the question! Waak over uw
> onafhankelijkheid!
> *
> http://forumstandaardisatie.nl/
> Beleidsquote "Rijksdiensten moeten vanaf april 2008 ODF ondersteunen.
> Mede-overheden en overige instellingen volgen uiterlijk december 2008.
> ODF = .odt voor tekst, .ods voor spreadsheets, .odp voor presentaties"
> Vendor-lock
> safe formats 
>  http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument
> **
>

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [tdf-discuss] Huge problems with big documents

[Florian Reisinger]

Hi,

Bug filed: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60418

Yours

Florian

Am 07.02.2013 10:58, schrieb Giorgio Migliaccio:

Hi,

Please find attached the document (one of many alike).

With kind regards,

Giorgio Migliaccio
Product Development Manager

Telephone : +32 3 450 89 84
Mobile : +32 486 92 43 41
Email : giorgio.migliac...@lettergen.be
LetterGen
Groene Hofstraat 13, 2850 Boom, Belgium
www.lettergen.com



-Original Message-
From: Florian Reisinger [mailto:reisi...@gmail.com]
Sent: donderdag 7 februari 2013 10:48
To: Giorgio Migliaccio
Cc: discuss@documentfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Huge problems with big documents

Hi,

The document is not attached. Please send me the document to me as PM...

Yours,

Florian

Am 07.02.2013 09:07, schrieb Giorgio Migliaccio:

Hi all,

   
We’re using LibreOffice (since v2.x up to 4.0 beta) inside our product LetterSketch, which was started 7 years ago.


LetterSketch is a document authoring tool with which authors can create 
documents and extend it with conditions, loops, variables, sub documents and 
other ornaments.

Finally this template gets compiled to an internal format and finally it can be 
generated on a server in high volume by feeding it data in XML format.

Now we got our biggest implementation up to date, a major European bank. And 
they need to create pretty complex document structures, containing multiple 
sub-documents.

And here we reached the limits of the OpenDocument format, or at least the 
LibreOffice/OpenOffice internal object representation.

   
At the customer we created a template/document containing 113 pages, built up with plain text, various objects like comments and frames, and dozens of sub-documents and where it takes some 10-20 minutes to just open the template.


   
We finally pinpointed the problem.


When we just take the top-level odt file, without resolving any of the 
sub-documents, LibreOffice needs 1 minute at 100% CPU(intel i5 CPU) and 500 MB 
of memory (!!!) for this document alone.
So when we also start resolving the sub-documents, LibreOffice goes up to 1.8 
GB of memory and then just crashes or disappears or freezes, there seems to be 
some kind of invisible ceiling.

Closing the document takes another 1-2 minutes and some additional memory is 
needed!

When saving the main document to the Word (.doc) format and then opening it in 
Word, MS Word only needs some 30 MB of memory to visualize this SAME document.

Please find attached the concerning (main) document.


Is there any kind of suggestion you can give us to overcome this 
problem/limitation, since this is going to be a major showstopper for our 
project.

Thank you very much for your suggestions.


With kind regards,

Giorgio Migliaccio





--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

RE: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness

[Jonathan Aquilina]

No problem at all, the problem arises as LO is planning on targeting iOS. What 
I really want to know is how LO is overcoming the licensing issue that they are 
presented with in regards to iOS and if so decided to as well include the mac 
app store in conjunction with the website.

 

From: Laurence Jeloudev [mailto:ljelou...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 07 February 2013 11:10
To: Jonathan Aquilina
Cc: Libreoffice Discussion List
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness

 

I agree. 

It might even be quicker to download from a website. 

Users wouldn't first of all have to have an account to download the software. 

And once it's installed it's ready to go to open most file formats including 
the best maintained ODF support from LO. 

One of the solutions, is by spreading the word to users from other users. If a 
company cannot provide open source standards than users can. If there are more 
open source users there would be less users using non open source software.  

It is open to the user to actually use the software for there own needs and 
requirements. 

 

Note: this will also be forwarded back to the discussion list. 

LJ. 


On 07/02/2013, at 8:56 PM, "Jonathan Aquilina"  wrote:

If people can still download from a website then the app stores shouldn’t be a 
problem at this stage.

 

From: Laurence Jeloudev [mailto:ljelou...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 07 February 2013 10:55
To: Jonathan Aquilina
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness

 

As a suggestion it might be that apple can not directly control open source 
software. 

How is it not open source?

http://www.opensource.apple.com/ 

Have ODF file types skipped apples open source protocols for Mac OS X?

And again it's that users have no knowledge of open alternatives and Microsoft 
and apple both know this for the mac platform.


On 07/02/2013, at 7:37 PM, "Jonathan Aquilina"  wrote:

Apple has nothing to do with it unless you are talking about releasing to
ios then that is a whole other can of worms or even to the mac app store. It
has something to do with the way mac has things setup which is in a way anti
open source.

-Original Message-
From: Laurence Jeloudev [mailto:ljelou...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 07 February 2013 09:34
To: Jonathan Aquilina; Libreoffice Discussion List
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness

I think the only way vendor lock in awareness can be achieved on the mac
platform. 
Would be for apple to acknowledge in there license agreement of document
software that they do not support ODF formats. And a support documentation
that lists a reason why and a discussion link as to what ODF formats are.
Such as a the ODF foundation site. Where there could be a list of
alternatives for ODF format software for mac users. 
Or a similar solution to having a description similar to the exe file on the
mac that states that it is a windows binary file with a link that is
documentation that is then supported with a step process of alternative
software.  
That way users would be aware first of all. Decline apple and its vendor
lock in process in the agreement and use an open alternative.  

LJ

On 07/02/2013, at 7:22 PM, "Jonathan Aquilina" 
wrote:





Is there a newer version of office for mac as I am on 2011 and I admit 

that doesn't do it? Maybe if they have a newer version that I am not 

aware of that does do it.

 

-Original Message-

From: Laurence Jeloudev [mailto:ljelou...@gmail.com]

Sent: 07 February 2013 09:21

To: Jonathan Aquilina

Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness

 

Not on the mac platform. 

 

Sent from my iPad

 

On 07/02/2013, at 7:20 PM, "Jonathan Aquilina" 



wrote:

 

Keep in mind that office 2010 and above supports odf formats and you 

have the choice to choose between Microsoft's proprietary formats or 

odf. When you run word for example for the first time it would ask 

you if you want to use xml formats or odf formats.

 

-Original Message-

From: Laurence Jeloudev [mailto:ljelou...@gmail.com]

Sent: 07 February 2013 09:14

To: Jonathan Aquilina

Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness

 

Personally I could be mistaken,

But many mac users that I know of do not use ODF formats at all, 

because it is not included in proprietary software that is for Mac OS X.

There first instinct I believe is to go straight to the windows 

platform and convert the document and not install a new open source 

office suite that can open the file.

Thus I believe the problem then stems even further.

There is no real practical prompt suggestion, awareness marketing 

advertisement from apple or Microsoft that this file can be opened 

using another program on the same apple platform.

Wether it be LO or not. 

I believe ODF formats for some mac users can be like opening an exe 

file on a mac platform. It is completely foreign to the user.

 

LJ. 

 

 

 

 

On 07/02/2013, at 6:56 PM, "Jonathan Aquilina" 



wrote:

 

What wo

Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness

[Laurence Jeloudev]

I agree. 
It might even be quicker to download from a website. 
Users wouldn't first of all have to have an account to download the software. 
And once it's installed it's ready to go to open most file formats including 
the best maintained ODF support from LO. 
One of the solutions, is by spreading the word to users from other users. If a 
company cannot provide open source standards than users can. If there are more 
open source users there would be less users using non open source software.  
It is open to the user to actually use the software for there own needs and 
requirements. 

Note: this will also be forwarded back to the discussion list. 
LJ. 

On 07/02/2013, at 8:56 PM, "Jonathan Aquilina"  wrote:

> If people can still download from a website then the app stores shouldn’t be 
> a problem at this stage.
>  
> From: Laurence Jeloudev [mailto:ljelou...@gmail.com] 
> Sent: 07 February 2013 10:55
> To: Jonathan Aquilina
> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness
>  
> As a suggestion it might be that apple can not directly control open source 
> software. 
> How is it not open source?
> http://www.opensource.apple.com/ 
> Have ODF file types skipped apples open source protocols for Mac OS X?
> And again it's that users have no knowledge of open alternatives and 
> Microsoft and apple both know this for the mac platform.
> 
> On 07/02/2013, at 7:37 PM, "Jonathan Aquilina"  wrote:
> 
> Apple has nothing to do with it unless you are talking about releasing to
> ios then that is a whole other can of worms or even to the mac app store. It
> has something to do with the way mac has things setup which is in a way anti
> open source.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Laurence Jeloudev [mailto:ljelou...@gmail.com] 
> Sent: 07 February 2013 09:34
> To: Jonathan Aquilina; Libreoffice Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness
> 
> I think the only way vendor lock in awareness can be achieved on the mac
> platform. 
> Would be for apple to acknowledge in there license agreement of document
> software that they do not support ODF formats. And a support documentation
> that lists a reason why and a discussion link as to what ODF formats are.
> Such as a the ODF foundation site. Where there could be a list of
> alternatives for ODF format software for mac users. 
> Or a similar solution to having a description similar to the exe file on the
> mac that states that it is a windows binary file with a link that is
> documentation that is then supported with a step process of alternative
> software.  
> That way users would be aware first of all. Decline apple and its vendor
> lock in process in the agreement and use an open alternative.  
> 
> LJ
> 
> On 07/02/2013, at 7:22 PM, "Jonathan Aquilina" 
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Is there a newer version of office for mac as I am on 2011 and I admit
> that doesn't do it? Maybe if they have a newer version that I am not
> aware of that does do it.
>  
> -Original Message-
> From: Laurence Jeloudev [mailto:ljelou...@gmail.com]
> Sent: 07 February 2013 09:21
> To: Jonathan Aquilina
> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness
>  
> Not on the mac platform.
>  
> Sent from my iPad
>  
> On 07/02/2013, at 7:20 PM, "Jonathan Aquilina"
> 
> wrote:
>  
> Keep in mind that office 2010 and above supports odf formats and you
> have the choice to choose between Microsoft's proprietary formats or
> odf. When you run word for example for the first time it would ask
> you if you want to use xml formats or odf formats.
>  
> -Original Message-
> From: Laurence Jeloudev [mailto:ljelou...@gmail.com]
> Sent: 07 February 2013 09:14
> To: Jonathan Aquilina
> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness
>  
> Personally I could be mistaken,
> But many mac users that I know of do not use ODF formats at all,
> because it is not included in proprietary software that is for Mac OS X.
> There first instinct I believe is to go straight to the windows
> platform and convert the document and not install a new open source
> office suite that can open the file.
> Thus I believe the problem then stems even further.
> There is no real practical prompt suggestion, awareness marketing
> advertisement from apple or Microsoft that this file can be opened
> using another program on the same apple platform.
> Wether it be LO or not.
> I believe ODF formats for some mac users can be like opening an exe
> file on a mac platform. It is completely foreign to the user.
>  
> LJ.
>  
>  
>  
>  
> On 07/02/2013, at 6:56 PM, "Jonathan Aquilina"
> 
> wrote:
>  
> What would be interesting to see with the comment about mac below.
> What are the current statistics of LO downloads for mac.
>  
> -Original Message-
> From: Laurence Jeloudev [mailto:ljelou...@gmail.com]
> Sent: 07 February 2013 08:03
> To: M. Fioretti; Libreoffice Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness
>  
> ODF formats are still

Re: [tdf-discuss] Huge problems with big documents

[Italo Vignoli]

On 2/7/13 9:07 AM, Giorgio Migliaccio wrote:

> Please find attached the concerning (main) document.

Mailing lists do not accept attachments. You should file a bug on
Bugzilla, where you can describe the issue and attach the document.

-- 
Italo Vignoli - italo.vign...@gmail.com
mob +39.348.5653829 - VoIP 5316...@messagenet.it
skype italovignoli - gtalk italo.vign...@gmail.com

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [tdf-discuss] Huge problems with big documents

[Florian Reisinger]

Hi,

The document is not attached. Please send me the document to me as PM...

Yours,

Florian

Am 07.02.2013 09:07, schrieb Giorgio Migliaccio:

Hi all,

  
We’re using LibreOffice (since v2.x up to 4.0 beta) inside our product LetterSketch, which was started 7 years ago.


LetterSketch is a document authoring tool with which authors can create 
documents and extend it with conditions, loops, variables, sub documents and 
other ornaments.

Finally this template gets compiled to an internal format and finally it can be 
generated on a server in high volume by feeding it data in XML format.

Now we got our biggest implementation up to date, a major European bank. And 
they need to create pretty complex document structures, containing multiple 
sub-documents.

And here we reached the limits of the OpenDocument format, or at least the 
LibreOffice/OpenOffice internal object representation.

  
At the customer we created a template/document containing 113 pages, built up with plain text, various objects like comments and frames, and dozens of sub-documents and where it takes some 10-20 minutes to just open the template.


  
We finally pinpointed the problem.


When we just take the top-level odt file, without resolving any of the 
sub-documents, LibreOffice needs 1 minute at 100% CPU(intel i5 CPU) and 500 MB 
of memory (!!!) for this document alone.
So when we also start resolving the sub-documents, LibreOffice goes up to 1.8 
GB of memory and then just crashes or disappears or freezes, there seems to be 
some kind of invisible ceiling.

Closing the document takes another 1-2 minutes and some additional memory is 
needed!

When saving the main document to the Word (.doc) format and then opening it in 
Word, MS Word only needs some 30 MB of memory to visualize this SAME document.

Please find attached the concerning (main) document.


Is there any kind of suggestion you can give us to overcome this 
problem/limitation, since this is going to be a major showstopper for our 
project.

Thank you very much for your suggestions.


With kind regards,

Giorgio Migliaccio





--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

RE: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness

[Jonathan Aquilina]

Apple has nothing to do with it unless you are talking about releasing to
ios then that is a whole other can of worms or even to the mac app store. It
has something to do with the way mac has things setup which is in a way anti
open source.

-Original Message-
From: Laurence Jeloudev [mailto:ljelou...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 07 February 2013 09:34
To: Jonathan Aquilina; Libreoffice Discussion List
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness

I think the only way vendor lock in awareness can be achieved on the mac
platform. 
Would be for apple to acknowledge in there license agreement of document
software that they do not support ODF formats. And a support documentation
that lists a reason why and a discussion link as to what ODF formats are.
Such as a the ODF foundation site. Where there could be a list of
alternatives for ODF format software for mac users. 
Or a similar solution to having a description similar to the exe file on the
mac that states that it is a windows binary file with a link that is
documentation that is then supported with a step process of alternative
software.  
That way users would be aware first of all. Decline apple and its vendor
lock in process in the agreement and use an open alternative.  

LJ

On 07/02/2013, at 7:22 PM, "Jonathan Aquilina" 
wrote:

> Is there a newer version of office for mac as I am on 2011 and I admit 
> that doesn't do it? Maybe if they have a newer version that I am not 
> aware of that does do it.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Laurence Jeloudev [mailto:ljelou...@gmail.com]
> Sent: 07 February 2013 09:21
> To: Jonathan Aquilina
> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness
> 
> Not on the mac platform. 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On 07/02/2013, at 7:20 PM, "Jonathan Aquilina" 
> 
> wrote:
> 
>> Keep in mind that office 2010 and above supports odf formats and you 
>> have the choice to choose between Microsoft's proprietary formats or 
>> odf. When you run word for example for the first time it would ask 
>> you if you want to use xml formats or odf formats.
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Laurence Jeloudev [mailto:ljelou...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: 07 February 2013 09:14
>> To: Jonathan Aquilina
>> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness
>> 
>> Personally I could be mistaken,
>> But many mac users that I know of do not use ODF formats at all, 
>> because it is not included in proprietary software that is for Mac OS X.
>> There first instinct I believe is to go straight to the windows 
>> platform and convert the document and not install a new open source 
>> office suite that can open the file.
>> Thus I believe the problem then stems even further.
>> There is no real practical prompt suggestion, awareness marketing 
>> advertisement from apple or Microsoft that this file can be opened 
>> using another program on the same apple platform.
>> Wether it be LO or not. 
>> I believe ODF formats for some mac users can be like opening an exe 
>> file on a mac platform. It is completely foreign to the user.
>> 
>> LJ. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 07/02/2013, at 6:56 PM, "Jonathan Aquilina" 
>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> What would be interesting to see with the comment about mac below. 
>>> What are the current statistics of LO downloads for mac.
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Laurence Jeloudev [mailto:ljelou...@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: 07 February 2013 08:03
>>> To: M. Fioretti; Libreoffice Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness
>>> 
>>> ODF formats are still not implemented to a point where consumers can 
>>> forget about what software they are using. And this is a concern for 
>>> mac users, as there software is usually proprietary software and not 
>>> software with ODF formats in it. The only program on the mac that 
>>> can only open odt documents is text editor.
>>> 
>>> There is no default requirement for a user to explore an ODF formats 
>>> program on the mac. They usually are swamped with proprietary 
>>> software as being the only solution, and forget that ODF formats 
>>> exist. As the odt format can be mistaken as a basic text document 
>>> format and not a fully fledged document suite file type format on 
>>> the
> mac.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> LJ
>>> 
>>> On 07/02/2013, at 12:21 AM, "M. Fioretti"  wrote:
>>> 
 On Wed, Feb 06, 2013 20:17:49 PM +1100, Laurence Jeloudev wrote:
> The concept is a great idea. 
> 
> But what if you encounter a person with a mac computer.
 
 that's the whole point. Both of ODF in general, and, I assume, of 
 Boudi. His signature is only about formats, it never mentions 
 specific software programs.
 
 THE reason for formats like ODF is to arrive as soon as possible to 
 a point where you can ignore what software the others are using.
 
 More on this topic:
 
 http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/focus_format_history
 
 Marco
 
 --
 Unsubscribe instru

Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness

[Laurence Jeloudev]

I think the only way vendor lock in awareness can be achieved on the mac 
platform. 
Would be for apple to acknowledge in there license agreement of document 
software that they do not support ODF formats. And a support documentation that 
lists a reason why and a discussion link as to what ODF formats are. Such as a 
the ODF foundation site. Where there could be a list of alternatives for ODF 
format software for mac users. 
Or a similar solution to having a description similar to the exe file on the 
mac that states that it is a windows binary file with a link that is 
documentation that is then supported with a step process of alternative 
software.  
That way users would be aware first of all. Decline apple and its vendor lock 
in process in the agreement and use an open alternative.  

LJ

On 07/02/2013, at 7:22 PM, "Jonathan Aquilina"  wrote:

> Is there a newer version of office for mac as I am on 2011 and I admit that
> doesn't do it? Maybe if they have a newer version that I am not aware of
> that does do it.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Laurence Jeloudev [mailto:ljelou...@gmail.com] 
> Sent: 07 February 2013 09:21
> To: Jonathan Aquilina
> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness
> 
> Not on the mac platform. 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On 07/02/2013, at 7:20 PM, "Jonathan Aquilina" 
> wrote:
> 
>> Keep in mind that office 2010 and above supports odf formats and you 
>> have the choice to choose between Microsoft's proprietary formats or 
>> odf. When you run word for example for the first time it would ask you 
>> if you want to use xml formats or odf formats.
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Laurence Jeloudev [mailto:ljelou...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: 07 February 2013 09:14
>> To: Jonathan Aquilina
>> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness
>> 
>> Personally I could be mistaken,
>> But many mac users that I know of do not use ODF formats at all, 
>> because it is not included in proprietary software that is for Mac OS X.
>> There first instinct I believe is to go straight to the windows 
>> platform and convert the document and not install a new open source 
>> office suite that can open the file.
>> Thus I believe the problem then stems even further.
>> There is no real practical prompt suggestion, awareness marketing 
>> advertisement from apple or Microsoft that this file can be opened 
>> using another program on the same apple platform.
>> Wether it be LO or not. 
>> I believe ODF formats for some mac users can be like opening an exe 
>> file on a mac platform. It is completely foreign to the user.
>> 
>> LJ. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 07/02/2013, at 6:56 PM, "Jonathan Aquilina" 
>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> What would be interesting to see with the comment about mac below. 
>>> What are the current statistics of LO downloads for mac.
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Laurence Jeloudev [mailto:ljelou...@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: 07 February 2013 08:03
>>> To: M. Fioretti; Libreoffice Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Help vendor-lock-in awareness
>>> 
>>> ODF formats are still not implemented to a point where consumers can 
>>> forget about what software they are using. And this is a concern for 
>>> mac users, as there software is usually proprietary software and not 
>>> software with ODF formats in it. The only program on the mac that can 
>>> only open odt documents is text editor.
>>> 
>>> There is no default requirement for a user to explore an ODF formats 
>>> program on the mac. They usually are swamped with proprietary 
>>> software as being the only solution, and forget that ODF formats 
>>> exist. As the odt format can be mistaken as a basic text document 
>>> format and not a fully fledged document suite file type format on the
> mac.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> LJ
>>> 
>>> On 07/02/2013, at 12:21 AM, "M. Fioretti"  wrote:
>>> 
 On Wed, Feb 06, 2013 20:17:49 PM +1100, Laurence Jeloudev wrote:
> The concept is a great idea. 
> 
> But what if you encounter a person with a mac computer.
 
 that's the whole point. Both of ODF in general, and, I assume, of 
 Boudi. His signature is only about formats, it never mentions 
 specific software programs.
 
 THE reason for formats like ODF is to arrive as soon as possible to 
 a point where you can ignore what software the others are using.
 
 More on this topic:
 
 http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/focus_format_history
 
 Marco
 
 --
 Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to
 discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
 Problems? 
 http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe
 /
 Posting guidelines + more: 
 http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
 List archive: 
 http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
 All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot 
 be deleted
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail t

[tdf-discuss] Huge problems with big documents

[Giorgio Migliaccio]

Hi all,

 
We’re using LibreOffice (since v2.x up to 4.0 beta) inside our product 
LetterSketch, which was started 7 years ago. 

LetterSketch is a document authoring tool with which authors can create 
documents and extend it with conditions, loops, variables, sub documents and 
other ornaments. 

Finally this template gets compiled to an internal format and finally it can be 
generated on a server in high volume by feeding it data in XML format.

Now we got our biggest implementation up to date, a major European bank. And 
they need to create pretty complex document structures, containing multiple 
sub-documents.

And here we reached the limits of the OpenDocument format, or at least the 
LibreOffice/OpenOffice internal object representation.

 
At the customer we created a template/document containing 113 pages, built up 
with plain text, various objects like comments and frames, and dozens of 
sub-documents and where it takes some 10-20 minutes to just open the template.

 
We finally pinpointed the problem. 

When we just take the top-level odt file, without resolving any of the 
sub-documents, LibreOffice needs 1 minute at 100% CPU(intel i5 CPU) and 500 MB 
of memory (!!!) for this document alone. 
So when we also start resolving the sub-documents, LibreOffice goes up to 1.8 
GB of memory and then just crashes or disappears or freezes, there seems to be 
some kind of invisible ceiling. 

Closing the document takes another 1-2 minutes and some additional memory is 
needed!

When saving the main document to the Word (.doc) format and then opening it in 
Word, MS Word only needs some 30 MB of memory to visualize this SAME document. 

Please find attached the concerning (main) document.


Is there any kind of suggestion you can give us to overcome this 
problem/limitation, since this is going to be a major showstopper for our 
project.

Thank you very much for your suggestions.


With kind regards,

Giorgio Migliaccio


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted