Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
David Nelson wrote: My point is that the sysadmins team is perhaps not developing the right culture in terms of openness and participation, and that it would be good to open it up a bit. This is my 2 cents, others may not see things like that, but... Hi David, I indeed disagree here. The admin team for our central infrastructure (in contrast to e.g. auxiliary sites, staging systems etc.) will always be a small closely-knit team of people, with lots of mutual trust ideally personal relations. There's a fundamental difference between sysadmin and e.g. hacking work, in terms of accountability, auditability, liability, reviewability, reversibility the probability to royally fsck things up. So applying the same yard stick to both groups will not work. Let's meet in Paris talk things through over a beer though. :) Cheers, -- Thorsten -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
Hi :) I think that in the specific case of David it would be smart to invite him to join the sys-admin team. I do appreciate it might not be good to allow everyone to join as and when they feel like it but David is a significant contributor to the docs team in that role. If he isn't invited to join then out will be missing out on a lot of talent there. Ideally there would be someone from the Brazilian Team too to spread the load internationally but i don't know of anyone in any other team that has shown David's level of commitment and skill in that particular type of role. To be fair i am not on the Brazilian lists so they might have someone too. Regards from Tom :) From: Thorsten Behrens t...@documentfoundation.org To: David Nelson li...@traduction.biz Cc: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Wed, 3 August, 2011 9:36:08 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting David Nelson wrote: My point is that the sysadmins team is perhaps not developing the right culture in terms of openness and participation, and that it would be good to open it up a bit. This is my 2 cents, others may not see things like that, but... Hi David, I indeed disagree here. The admin team for our central infrastructure (in contrast to e.g. auxiliary sites, staging systems etc.) will always be a small closely-knit team of people, with lots of mutual trust ideally personal relations. There's a fundamental difference between sysadmin and e.g. hacking work, in terms of accountability, auditability, liability, reviewability, reversibility the probability to royally fsck things up. So applying the same yard stick to both groups will not work. Let's meet in Paris talk things through over a beer though. :) Cheers, -- Thorsten -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
Hi David, David Nelson wrote on 2011-08-01 11:05: I know you work tremendously hard for the project, and you have a lot of respect and gratitude from me from that, which you know I have expressed on- and off-list various times. Let me take the chance to say again that, without your *personal* efforts, this project would probably fall apart. Literally. thanks for those kind words, they are really appreciated. I think it's a great team effort, and everyone contributes a lot to make happen what happens. It's not only the spokespeople or the SC, but everyone from the community is doing just amazing and magical things here that really impress me every day! No, this is in no way directed towards you personally. Nor do I ever say that everything is bad. But that doesn't mean that one should not point out undesirable tendencies (in a measured and rational manner) before they get to be ingrained habits. Of course, any constructive criticism is highly appreciated. It would be a lie if I said that you are not getting blind over time, when you are heavily involved in such a project - so feedback from others is indeed very helpful. And I do understand that, in a FOSS project, we always have to take account of people's time limitations. However, when one is managing the project's key infrastructure as a rather closed group, one does have a bit of a commitment to especial responsiveness, within reasonable limits. In any case, it's certainly what I try to apply with my own piece of infrastructure. My point is that the sysadmins team is perhaps not developing the right culture in terms of openness and participation, and that it would be good to open it up a bit. This is my 2 cents, others may not see things like that, but... I only agree partially. I think the sysadmin team is a very special case for any project. The core group has full root access to all servers, so it requires a lot of knowledge, trust and and working together. I consider it highly important that everyone knows the others from face to face meetings, and that the core group is not too large, out of organizational and security considerations, but also out of liability issues. This does not mean, of course, that this core group has to do all the tasks. We can have SilverStripe and wiki admins, mailing list moderators and other people working on the infrastructure, but not everyone needs to be a part of the core group. In other words: A wiki admin does not need root SSH access to our machines. What I agree to is that the work of the infrastructure team is not transparent enough at the moment, and we indeed are working on that. We plan to have some more information on the team and its work publically soon, that's something we agreed during that meeting. However, in some terms, the core group will always be a bit more closed than the rest of the project, because it needs to out of security considerations and the special framework they work in. We just cannot give everyone insight into our systems, that's just too much of a risk. For that particular meeting, we indeed did not want to have it open. We wanted to have that core group together. We had lots of things to work on and discuss, also lots of security-relevant stuff, and there simply was no time for a meet and greet the admins. Talking about you especially, with hosting one of the machines that we are using, indeed I missed to tell you about that meeting. But if I remembered to do so, this would not have been done in public anyways, because that meeting was not meant to be public. Hope that makes some things a bit clearer. :-) For the particular questions I could have raised, I'll mail you off-list. In which case, I perfectly accept that it will take you time to consider and respond, because I know you have a lot on your plate. Sure, just drop me a mail and we'll see. You can also mail all the admins at hostmas...@documentfoundation.org if the mail is intended for all of them. We indeed plan to make some senseful contact mechanism available for the admin team, e.g. we're currently investigating BugZilla and OTRS for that. However, sometimes things will simply take their time, as we are all just a group of volunteers doing things in their spare time. Once again, you definitely should not read all the above posts as any kind of criticism of you personally. You should probably be aware by now that I hold your work for the project in very high regard. Thanks a lot! Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive:
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
Hi Florian, OK, thanks for the answers. And don't forget to eat lots of fruit and sleep regularly. ;-) -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
Hi David, David Nelson wrote on 2011-08-01 01:31: I've no particular opinion about the funding, but I did regret having missed the opportunity to have met the project's sysadmins, and I was disappointed that it was a thing not decided with the knowledge and possible involvement of the international community of web resource contributors, but with only discussion between German members. While I recognize that there are many German sysadmins in the project, I do hope that it's not going to become a habit that things be organized purely between them, because there are actually other people working on webby things. Please do remember the spirit and intentions of the Community Bylaws. of course, we do, but that meeting was a nonpublic one on purpose. We really wanted to get a lot of work done concerning the admins, and we were busy all weekend long. Anyone outside of the admin group would have had a boring time. There was simply no time for meet and greet, as harsh as it sounds. It was solely for those having root access, not for web site managers, as the technical topics were in-depth and detailed. We definitely plan to have open meetings, but this meeting was really necessary to make the sysadmins work together, so it was reserved for this group. Hope you understand what I mean and it doesn't sound too harsh. :-) Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
Hi, Von: Florian Effenberger Gesendet: 29.07.11 18:24 Uhr Norbert Thiebaud wrote on 2011-07-29 18:06: Ahh, so you're asking TDF to cover the 600 euro budget overrun. Now I get it:-) Thanks for the clarification actually, I would like to ask to cover everything from the TDF account, as this would be fair. No - this would be absolutely chaotic. Imagine if every now and then a team comes around, doing some event and then *afterwards* asks for reimbursement, because this would be fair. sorry, clear: no from my side. André -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
Hi Florian, On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 10:20 AM, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote: It was solely for those having root access, not for web site managers, as the technical topics were in-depth and detailed. Yes, well given that you have root access to my server, it would have been good for me to talk to you about some in-depth and detailed issues. We definitely plan to have open meetings, but this meeting was really necessary to make the sysadmins work together, so it was reserved for this group. Work together? And with the outside world, too, I hope! I posted a request/proposition to the admins on the website ML a week ago and still did not get even an answer. I notice sometimes that getting some attention and cooperation from the libreoffice.org admins is like trying to get blood out of a stone (and I'm not just talking about my own posts, others seem to get the same mileage sometimes). So I hope you at least talked about that kind of in-depth issue too. ;-) Precisely the problem seems to be that the sysadmins are a closed group, unlike other teams in the project, and simply don't seem to work in the same way as other teams. They might be managing key infrastructure but it's not a reason for working differently - in fact quite the opposite, they should be especially attentive to working openly it's not a good tendence, IMO. -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
Hi, Andre Schnabel wrote on 2011-08-01 09:41: No - this would be absolutely chaotic. Imagine if every now and then a team comes around, doing some event and then *afterwards* asks for reimbursement, because this would be fair. sorry, clear: no from my side. well, I see it different in this case, but in the end, it is not a problem - obviously the SC agreed to at least paying the excess of 600 € (at least I counted only +1 votes), and we have the German associations board decision from January to pay the 1.000 €, so the sum in the end works anyways. Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
Hi, Jonathan Aquilina wrote on 2011-08-01 09:25: hey florian im just curious how does one get to be a system admin? Is it limited to those people in germany or can people such as myself based in malta help out as a systems admin as well? there is no defined process so far, and basically, of course, everyone is welcome from any country - the fact that it's just Germans is a pure coincidence. However, at the moment, we have a group of 10 people, and I am a bit hesitant of adding more people to this core group. The core group has full root access to all our systems, and it should be kept rather small. This does not mean, of course, that we do not need help in maintaining individual services like website co. Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
On 01/08/2011 10:40, Florian Effenberger wrote: Hi, Jonathan Aquilina wrote on 2011-08-01 09:25: hey florian im just curious how does one get to be a system admin? Is it limited to those people in germany or can people such as myself based in malta help out as a systems admin as well? there is no defined process so far, and basically, of course, everyone is welcome from any country - the fact that it's just Germans is a pure coincidence. However, at the moment, we have a group of 10 people, and I am a bit hesitant of adding more people to this core group. The core group has full root access to all our systems, and it should be kept rather small. This does not mean, of course, that we do not need help in maintaining individual services like website co. Florian Me im not so much into web design and coding, me im more of a technical server side guy. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
Hi David, David Nelson wrote on 2011-08-01 10:10: Yes, well given that you have root access to my server, it would have been good for me to talk to you about some in-depth and detailed issues. well, in that case, I indeed missed it, and I am sorry for that. However, publically announcing it would have defeated its purpose. We wanted only the core group together, to effectively work. Having visitors or interested parties around would not only have make things more complicated, but also from a security point of view, the information simply was not for the public. Indeed, since you manage one of our external services, inviting you would have made sense - again, sorry for overlooking that, that was not on purpose. Work together? And with the outside world, too, I hope! I posted a request/proposition to the admins on the website ML a week ago and still did not get even an answer. I notice sometimes that getting some attention and cooperation from the libreoffice.org admins is like trying to get blood out of a stone (and I'm not just talking about my own posts, others seem to get the same mileage sometimes). So I hope you at least talked about that kind of in-depth issue too. ;-) Well - if anyone is interested in hiring a few folks for a 24x7 infrastructure service, feel free and then complain if it doesn't work. Otherwise, I beg some understanding, that we are all busy as hell and try our best to make things happen, and that we do a real good job. Of course, not all is well, but I think the fact that everything works like a charm speaks for itself. What was your request about? Precisely the problem seems to be that the sysadmins are a closed group, unlike other teams in the project, and simply don't seem to work in the same way as other teams. They might be managing key infrastructure but it's not a reason for working differently - in fact quite the opposite, they should be especially attentive to working openly it's not a good tendence, IMO. We're not a closed group at all. Many of us are lurking on the website and/or moderators mailing list, and jump in. Like Erich and Christian with setting up new websites, Christian investigating mail issues and the like. What we indeed plan is to introduce the admin team to the public, showing the names and faces behind it, and ways to contact us to be more transparent. You know, complaining is easy. I myself do nearly a half-day job for TDF, next to my real life, and I'm a bit allergic to generalization. If there is a specific topic that does not work out, please ping us again and let us know. But saying in general, we are totally closed and nothing works is a bit unfair, David. You know better that it isn't that bad. Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
Hi Jonathan, On Mon, 2011-08-01 at 09:25 +0200, Jonathan Aquilina wrote: hey florian im just curious how does one get to be a system admin? Is it limited to those people in germany or can people such as myself based in malta help out as a systems admin as well? I would like to see you meet some / any of the commitments you've made in the development arena before giving any access to critical infrastructure. HTH, Michael. -- michael.me...@novell.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
Hi Florian, On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 11:46 AM, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote: You know, complaining is easy. I myself do nearly a half-day job for TDF, next to my real life, and I'm a bit allergic to generalization. If there is a specific topic that does not work out, please ping us again and let us know. But saying in general, we are totally closed and nothing works is a bit unfair, David. You know better that it isn't that bad. I know you work tremendously hard for the project, and you have a lot of respect and gratitude from me from that, which you know I have expressed on- and off-list various times. Let me take the chance to say again that, without your *personal* efforts, this project would probably fall apart. Literally. No, this is in no way directed towards you personally. Nor do I ever say that everything is bad. But that doesn't mean that one should not point out undesirable tendencies (in a measured and rational manner) before they get to be ingrained habits. And I do understand that, in a FOSS project, we always have to take account of people's time limitations. However, when one is managing the project's key infrastructure as a rather closed group, one does have a bit of a commitment to especial responsiveness, within reasonable limits. In any case, it's certainly what I try to apply with my own piece of infrastructure. My point is that the sysadmins team is perhaps not developing the right culture in terms of openness and participation, and that it would be good to open it up a bit. This is my 2 cents, others may not see things like that, but... For the particular questions I could have raised, I'll mail you off-list. In which case, I perfectly accept that it will take you time to consider and respond, because I know you have a lot on your plate. Once again, you definitely should not read all the above posts as any kind of criticism of you personally. You should probably be aware by now that I hold your work for the project in very high regard. -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
Hi, Norbert Thiebaud wrote on 2011-07-29 19:07: I don't disagree that, based on the agenda and participants, it would make more sens, but then why didn't you put the initial budget proposal in front of the TDF SC rather than the 'German Association' board ? the initial funding was an offer by the German association, like we fund many other events in Germany, so there was initially no need to discuss it with the SC. However, after seeing that we need more money, and thinking about it again, I thought it made more sense to take all money from the TDF account, out of the reasons outlined. (anyway, my quibbling was triggered by the notion that one should translate German minutes of another association to be informed on what is going on at TDF :-) ) No. :-) The problem is that FrODeV and TDF are legally the same entity, but both have their own topics on the agenda, which makes things a bit complicated until TDF is an own entity. :) Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
Hi, I've no particular opinion about the funding, but I did regret having missed the opportunity to have met the project's sysadmins, and I was disappointed that it was a thing not decided with the knowledge and possible involvement of the international community of web resource contributors, but with only discussion between German members. While I recognize that there are many German sysadmins in the project, I do hope that it's not going to become a habit that things be organized purely between them, because there are actually other people working on webby things. Please do remember the spirit and intentions of the Community Bylaws. -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
Hi :) I think the SC just voted on the 600 euroes excess. I think the full amount might need another vote. Coincidentally i think there is an Sc Meeting tonight(?) so it could be done quite quickly there? Perhaps vote on the full amount first and if that gets defeated then vote on the excess? I think there also needs to be some thought about Base. Should it be dropped from LO since it's not getting any attention? If TDF wants to keep Base is it prepared to recruit an employee as a dev or legal expert or team-leader (or a bit of all those) to properly build a good team to deal with the vast amount of complex issues that Base is suffering from? I think the money is there and should be used. I think Some supporters such as RedHat, Cannonical and Google might be willing to help but i think TDF needs to drive it. Regards from Tom :) From: Drew Jensen d...@baseanswers.com To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Fri, 29 July, 2011 17:03:15 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting On Fri, 2011-07-29 at 17:46 +0200, Florian Effenberger wrote: Hi, Norbert Thiebaud wrote on 2011-07-29 17:35: Now you are getting me really confused. Who decided what, and who is paying what ? the board of directors of the German association, which will stay an independent entity also after TDF has been funded, but in the meantime is the legal entity behind TDF, decided that in their board of director's meeting. So, a decision by the German association, *not* by the TDF SC. OK - that sounds as if the decision by the FrODev BOD was to expend the 1,000 euro from the FrODev account, not the the TDF account, yes? However, since more money then offered by the German association is needed, and the weekend was for the TDF admins, Actual costs exceeded projection by 60%. I'd like to ask if the SC is agreeing to spending some of the TDF money for it. Is the SC agreeing then to pay the entire 1,600 euro from the TDF fund now, or just the 600 excess? Thanks, Drew -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
Hi David, David Nelson wrote on 2011-07-28 15:09: *Some* being the operative word... I never heard about this... Was it publicized at all on the website mailing list and I missed it? no, it was in first place a board decision of the German association, so it was published in their meeting minutes (in German). However, since it affects TDF, I wanted to raise the topic here. In any case, if you do another one, could you maybe give me a heads-up? It would have been interesting to meet other people administering infrastructure for TDF. This meeting was only an internal one for the existing admins, so we didn't spread the word too far. However, we might make a workshop for interested parties the next time. Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 2:43 AM, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Hi David, David Nelson wrote on 2011-07-28 15:09: *Some* being the operative word... I never heard about this... Was it publicized at all on the website mailing list and I missed it? no, it was in first place a board decision of the German association, so it was published in their meeting minutes (in German). However, since it affects TDF, I wanted to raise the topic here. Now you are getting me really confused. Who decided what, and who is paying what ? Norbert -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
Hi, Norbert Thiebaud wrote on 2011-07-29 17:35: Now you are getting me really confused. Who decided what, and who is paying what ? the board of directors of the German association, which will stay an independent entity also after TDF has been funded, but in the meantime is the legal entity behind TDF, decided that in their board of director's meeting. So, a decision by the German association, *not* by the TDF SC. However, since more money then offered by the German association is needed, and the weekend was for the TDF admins, I'd like to ask if the SC is agreeing to spending some of the TDF money for it. Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:46 AM, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Hi, Norbert Thiebaud wrote on 2011-07-29 17:35: Now you are getting me really confused. Who decided what, and who is paying what ? the board of directors of the German association, which will stay an independent entity also after TDF has been funded, but in the meantime is the legal entity behind TDF, decided that in their board of director's meeting. So, a decision by the German association, *not* by the TDF SC. However, since more money then offered by the German association is needed, and the weekend was for the TDF admins, I'd like to ask if the SC is agreeing to spending some of the TDF money for it. Ahh, so you're asking TDF to cover the 600 euro budget overrun. Now I get it :-) Thanks for the clarification Norbert -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
Hi, Drew Jensen wrote on 2011-07-29 18:03: OK - that sounds as if the decision by the FrODev BOD was to expend the 1,000 euro from the FrODev account, not the the TDF account, yes? that's how I understood it. However, since the weekend was solely TDF-related, and the association doesn't get any donations right now, but TDF gets, I would even propose to take the money from the TDF account, which I find just fair. Actual costs exceeded projection by 60%. Positively said, many more people volunteered to work as admins, which is a good sign, so 60% cost exceeding shouldn't be a concern. Many other foundations I know have paid fulltime admins, so we can consider ourselves very happy that just travel funding is needed. :-) Is the SC agreeing then to pay the entire 1,600 euro from the TDF fund now, or just the 600 excess? I would indeed propose the former one, to be honest. Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
Hi, Norbert Thiebaud wrote on 2011-07-29 18:06: Ahh, so you're asking TDF to cover the 600 euro budget overrun. Now I get it:-) Thanks for the clarification actually, I would like to ask to cover everything from the TDF account, as this would be fair. Of course, if the German association wants to spend the 1,600 € from their account, then only the 600 € are needed, but from my gut feeling, paying everything from the TDF account would make more sense to me. Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
Hi :) So the work was done for TDF but the decision to do the work was taken by one of the communities. I thought the event was a different one. One that had been discussed in here. I remember people using the mailing list to meet up for further discussion at the end of one of the days but i guess that was a different event? Since TDF does have plenty of money to cover the short-fall i think it should. We don't want to discourage people from doing work that benefits TDF! I do agree with David's earlier post that it would be good for the SC and BoD know about events in advance. If the SC or BoD had been asked in advance then i'm fairly sure they would have agreed to pay about half if the other half was being paid by a community group. The problem is that the decision should have been put to the SC/BoD in advance. I think agree to it this time but avoid it in the future? Regards from Tom :) From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Fri, 29 July, 2011 16:46:03 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting Hi, Norbert Thiebaud wrote on 2011-07-29 17:35: Now you are getting me really confused. Who decided what, and who is paying what ? the board of directors of the German association, which will stay an independent entity also after TDF has been funded, but in the meantime is the legal entity behind TDF, decided that in their board of director's meeting. So, a decision by the German association, *not* by the TDF SC. However, since more money then offered by the German association is needed, and the weekend was for the TDF admins, I'd like to ask if the SC is agreeing to spending some of the TDF money for it. Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
Hi :) +1 for the full amount this time because TDF can afford it this time. Regards from Tom :) From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org To: steering-disc...@documentfoundation.org Sent: Fri, 29 July, 2011 17:24:31 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting Hi, Norbert Thiebaud wrote on 2011-07-29 18:06: Ahh, so you're asking TDF to cover the 600 euro budget overrun. Now I get it:-) Thanks for the clarification actually, I would like to ask to cover everything from the TDF account, as this would be fair. Of course, if the German association wants to spend the 1,600 € from their account, then only the 600 € are needed, but from my gut feeling, paying everything from the TDF account would make more sense to me. Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 11:24 AM, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Hi, Norbert Thiebaud wrote on 2011-07-29 18:06: Ahh, so you're asking TDF to cover the 600 euro budget overrun. Now I get it:-) Thanks for the clarification actually, I would like to ask to cover everything from the TDF account, as this would be fair. Of course, if the German association wants to spend the 1,600 € from their account, then only the 600 € are needed, but from my gut feeling, paying everything from the TDF account would make more sense to me. I don't disagree that, based on the agenda and participants, it would make more sens, but then why didn't you put the initial budget proposal in front of the TDF SC rather than the 'German Association' board ? (anyway, my quibbling was triggered by the notion that one should translate German minutes of another association to be informed on what is going on at TDF :-) ) Norbert -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
Hi Florian, On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 12:04 PM, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote: as some of you know, the TDF admins had a system operations meeting in Munich about one month ago: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/System_Operations/Meeting_2011-01 *Some* being the operative word... I never heard about this... Was it publicized at all on the website mailing list and I missed it? In any case, if you do another one, could you maybe give me a heads-up? It would have been interesting to meet other people administering infrastructure for TDF. TIA if so, ;-) -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
Florian Effenberger wrote: As the weekend was a pure working weekend, and people spend lots of their time during week and on weekends, for keeping our infrastructure running, I consider it justified to not give them the burden of also paying out of their own pockets. +1 -- Thorsten -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
Thorsten Behrens wrote: Florian Effenberger wrote: As the weekend was a pure working weekend, and people spend lots of their time during week and on weekends, for keeping our infrastructure running, I consider it justified to not give them the burden of also paying out of their own pockets. +1 -- Thorsten +1 Italo -- Italo Vignoli italo.vign...@gmail.com Mobile +39.348.5653829 VoIP: +39.02.320621813 Skype: italovignoli -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting
2011/7/27 Italo Vignoli italo.vign...@gmail.com Thorsten Behrens wrote: Florian Effenberger wrote: As the weekend was a pure working weekend, and people spend lots of their time during week and on weekends, for keeping our infrastructure running, I consider it justified to not give them the burden of also paying out of their own pockets. +1 -- Thorsten +1 Italo +1 Charles. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
