Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Hi, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote on 2011-12-15 23:56: As well the proposal of Charles (Tanstaafl) of having a choice while subscribing is worth considering. Maybe there is a possibility to have a further subscribing mode with mlmmj. If possible, this might be not ideal, but should be no problem for a dev mind. But this is nothing to be in effect within days. indeed. I don't know if this approach makes sense - it causes more system load (because mails have to be processed twice), and needs development time. The good news: Since the beginning there is a volunteer from the admin team, happy to solve the issue. Not withdrawing his offer (well, thinking several times about it). - it's me! :o)) I'm in favor of switching off reply-to mangling, but without hurting valueable contributors, we urgently need. As I'm tired now, I'll stress that more in a (near ;o))) future mail and as well the following questions. Well, since it's Christmas soon anyways, and I am busy with real life things ;), I will keep my hands off this topic anyways for the moment. I still think we should do something soon, as the developers have been asking for a change for months, two of them we discussed - but I myself won't have time before next year, so let's leave it at that for now... Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Board of Directors at The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
On 06/12/11 08:40, Michael Meeks wrote: Grief, does anyone provide an embarrassing mail removal service ? if so, I'd like to use it ;-) There are a couple of companies that claim to provide that service. More precisely, they claim to be able to remove any negative content about you, or originated by you, anywhere on the Internet. They don't claim to be cheap, but they do claim to be effective. jonathon -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Hi, Tanstaafl wrote on 2011-12-19 19:13: My quggestion was not to code this from scratch im mlmmj, it was to wait until Mailman3 is released, and simply migrate all of the lists to it - which fits in well with your last statement: I think migrating to Mailman 3 will take a while, since it requires lots of efforts to switch our mail system, I guess. Apart from that, Mailman 3 has not been released yet, so I would consider such an option to be realistic - if we want it at all - within 6 to 12 months. Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Board of Directors at The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
On 2011-12-19 1:26 PM, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote: I think migrating to Mailman 3 will take a while, since it requires lots of efforts to switch our mail system, I guess. I would wager that if whoever would be tasked with doing this was to ask nicely on the mailman-dev list, you would get lots of help with the migration to make it easy/smooth. Apart from that, Mailman 3 has not been released yet, so I would consider such an option to be realistic - if we want it at all - within 6 to 12 months. Well... the first beta is scheduled to be released in January, so I imagine it will be rtm by mid year, so if you were to start working on the logistics and infrastructure, and start a dialog with the mailman devs on how to migrate the users/settings from mlmmj to mailman, that you could be ready to go as soon as the release happens... But, obviously, it will not be without effort... Anyway, thats my .02 clad coins worth... -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Hi Florian, *, Am 12.12.2011 14:41 schrieb Florian Effenberger: Friedrich Strohmaier wrote on 2011-12-11 15:22: So well, I've some questions: - What makes the website list more suitable for this test than this one? - What are the criteria making this test successful or fail? nothing, .. means leave me alone? but we have been discussing for weeks now, No discussion - vaporizing comments instead, You did not care nor comment a single one. and I would like to test out the impact of reply-to mangling. Switch off reply-to mangling? Regarding testing out the impact of that change: I'll try once more: If You want to know the impact of your house burning down, there are two possibilities: - I tell you the impact of burning down your house - I show you the impact of burning down your house If I tell you the impact of burning down your house you can imagine. If I show you the impact of burning down your house you can see. Same thing about knowing the impact of changing the behaviour of the mailinglists. As You play with the motivation of volunteers, how do you evaluate the result of test out the impact? Do you count the corpses i.e. the lost volunteers? The way You want to go, is one where you can't win. The best case is, no damage is visible, which does not mean it doesn't happen. All other cases make things go worse. Btw. I still don't know about Your motivation on this. You didn't tell a single word about. If I think of games affecting volunteer's motivation I think of games I can win only and the worst case is, that things don't change. But this is my personal preference. From what I read, Your's appear to be different. I tried to describe my vision on how to do - but I dropped hope to get it recognized by You. My offer is still valid, for what it is worth however. Really, it's been now eight weeks (!) that has been in the queue at least, If this eight weeks were ones delaying a mistake they were good ones. so... let's do it and try it out. So go ahead! Enjoy the impact You might cause. Enjoy counting corpses. Gruß/regards Friedrich -- Friedrich Strohmaier - Admin team - The Document Foundation http://www.documentfoundation.org/ -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Hello, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote on 2011-12-14 23:56: So go ahead! Enjoy the impact You might cause. Enjoy counting corpses. Corpse's Bride is a nice movie, but I guess you are not talking about it. ;-) So, my point is the following: - I have people strongly asking for disabling reply-to mangling, e.g. on the website list. - I have people strongly asking for leaving reply-to mangling as is. - So, whatever I do, someone will be upset. - I myself would like to keep reply-to mangling as is, as I have set it up for good reasons. - We have been discussing that issue for two months now without any clear result, it still is that some people want it, some don't. So, what shall I do? Flip a coin? Nobody really knows what happens when we enable it. So, my proposal was, to try it out - after announcing this test - on a list where it was demanded, and where people are probably technically savvy enough to deal with it. What exactly is wrong about this proposal? What did I miss? This question is serious, no pun intended. I really feel like sitting between two chairs, and try to find the best compromise possible. Again, people left to me ask for leaving things as is, people right to me ask for changing them. What now? Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Board of Directors at The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Hi Flo Am 15.12.11 00:41, schrieb Florian Effenberger: ... - We have been discussing that issue for two months now without any clear result, it still is that some people want it, some don't. So, what shall I do? Flip a coin? No. It's really simple: Because a) there is no clear preferfence or decision b) you are not someone who has spare time to spent on something useless or suffering from boredom it is clear the best way is the one which causes /lesser/ work. SO - make a short statement like no clear preference for a change to those lists and leave everything as it is - or stop complaining about a lot to do/no time ;-) -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen Uwe Altmann -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Florian Effenberger wrote (15-12-11 00:41) - So, whatever I do, someone will be upset. Poor them ;-) No serious, I don't think people involved in this discussion will be really upset. Maybe slightly disappointed. But hey :-) - I myself would like to keep reply-to mangling as is, as I have set it up for good reasons. - We have been discussing that issue for two months now without any clear result, it still is that some people want it, some don't. I stopped following it closely a long time ago. Simple, because the time involved in the discussion isn't worth the possible improvement/cost ratio. At least not IMHO. I'm fine with all solutions - simply adapt to Ctrl-R or Ctrl-SHft-R. And I notice that all people, myself included, sometimes hit the wrong keys :-) So, what shall I do? Flip a coin? Do what you suggest three paragraphs up ;-) That's the best, Florian. Regards, -- - Cor - http://nl.libreoffice.org -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Hi, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote on 2011-12-11 15:22: So well, I've some questions: - What makes the website list more suitable for this test than this one? - What are the criteria making this test successful or fail? nothing, but we have been discussing for weeks now, and I would like to test out the impact of reply-to mangling. Really, it's been now eight weeks (!) that has been in the queue at least, so... let's do it and try it out. Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Board of Directors at The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Hi Florian, *, Am 09.12.2011 12:07 schrieb Florian Effenberger: I like your idea to use the website list however, since people there are usually much experienced in using technology and e-mail. So, what do others think about that? Disabling reply-to mangling (after announcement) on the website list for a while and see the results? So well, I've some questions: - What makes the website list more suitable for this test than this one? - What are the criteria making this test successful or fail? Gruß/regards Gruß/regards -- Friedrich Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/ LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Hi Michael, *, Am 06.12.2011 09:40 schrieb Michael Meeks: [..] Anyways, which lists would you like to start trying it on? The one I'd like to interact with from time to time don't is the website list :-) but I'd expect the same noise there ... ^[1] IMHO that causes lots of problem. I see myself purging files from the archive because people did not know they were posting in public. Grief, does anyone provide an embarrassing mail removal service ? if ^[1] so, I'd like to use it ;-) [1] I personally don't consider this way of estimating other contributors contributions, one forwoarding a successful and happy community.. [..] And of course; I'm a proponent of not mangling Reply-To: on lists, not to annoy people :-), but because I truly believe it gives the very best interaction experience for clueful developers arriving from the outside and dipping their toes in. remember: I'm as well. And all noise I produce about it targets to make this change a success ;o)) The good idea of testing it out somewhere comes from the sysadmin team, That's only partially true. In fact it was Florian coming from nowhere doing a proposal[2], while stating at any opportunity this beeing a bad idea(for example[4]). This makes me perceive he's not very interested this change beeing a successful one. [2] http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.moderators/220 [4] http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.moderators/220/focus=254 It was me bringing this to public[3], because I'm really concerned, even starting a test without *broad support* doing damage. Settling broad support goes along with setting up a target, reasonable and interesting to aim to, collecting supporters, which catch and cure the trapped and thus keep them beeing contributors. For this task, we have to start *where we are now* instead of *where it was nice to be*, regardless how well or not so well we prepared this decision in the past (by introducing this setting). [3] http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.discuss/7433 Everything apart, for me is kind of hidden or open vote with a looser party and a winner party. I don't consider this a good way to go for a community like ours. To say it short: We've to determine the nail we all want to hit. If we don't so, we'll continue to hit thumbs. :o)) and it seems we're iterating towards a consensus that the discuss list is perhaps not the best place to start before any change took place ;-) Well I don`t see what this list makes less suitable for that test than any other (including website). Questions about test criteria as answer on Florian's Mail: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.discuss/7433/focus=7514 HTH, .. not much regarding my concerns of a failure of this test. Gruß/regards Gruß/regards Gruß/regards Gruß/regards -- Friedrich Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/ LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Hi, Michael Meeks wrote on 2011-12-06 09:40: The good idea of testing it out somewhere comes from the sysadmin team, and it seems we're iterating towards a consensus that the discuss list is perhaps not the best place to start before any change took place;-) :-) I like your idea to use the website list however, since people there are usually much experienced in using technology and e-mail. So, what do others think about that? Disabling reply-to mangling (after announcement) on the website list for a while and see the results? Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Board of Directors at The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Hi guys, I'm just calming down from the feature-freeze frenzy a little, and reading the thread; there are a lot of good points here. On Tue, 2011-11-29 at 10:01 +0100, Florian Effenberger wrote: I wanted to start on a high-volume list to see the impact. But looking at the replies, I think we should indeed vary from list to list. For discuss@ maybe it is not desired... So - an end-user focused list (packed with the clueless like NoOp describes) is perhaps not the best place to start. If people don't know what an E-mail list is ;-) then fending them off to the forums would perhaps be better. On the other hand as NoOp says (again :-) that means we should ban people from direct posting to these lists without being subscribed (with a nice rejection message explaining the long steps they need to do to subscribe, and pointing them at a web forum I guess). Anyways, which lists would you like to start trying it on? The one I'd like to interact with from time to time don't is the website list :-) but I'd expect the same noise there ... IMHO that causes lots of problem. I see myself purging files from the archive because people did not know they were posting in public. Grief, does anyone provide an embarrassing mail removal service ? if so, I'd like to use it ;-) There was also the point raised that people will occassionally reply only to the sender, and not to the list. That's certainly true - especially with newbies. These need gentle encouragement to interact in public which can take some effort. Sometimes they just want to talk individually - and I think those inter-relational connections and friendships are worth encouraging as well (they don't concern me). And of course; I'm a proponent of not mangling Reply-To: on lists, not to annoy people :-), but because I truly believe it gives the very best interaction experience for clueful developers arriving from the outside and dipping their toes in. The good idea of testing it out somewhere comes from the sysadmin team, and it seems we're iterating towards a consensus that the discuss list is perhaps not the best place to start before any change took place ;-) HTH, Michael. -- michael.me...@suse.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Regina Henschel wrote: I see no problem for this steps. That has worked all the time for our German OOo-lists, so why shouldn't it work for an international list? Users get a reply from the list moderator which describes what to do. Ugh. Citing the late OOo as something that has worked especially well strikes me as at least debatable. ;) I think the point you want to make is - I'm used to this - which is fine, but the problem that is to be addressed here is mostly about people *not* used to it, but coming from outside / the fuzzy edges of this project. I would think, if all LibO lists would behave similarly, it wouldn't take longer than a day or two to adapt personal habits? At any rate, here's the ultimate answer in this whole reply-to-munging debate (for who ever is amenable to technical argument): http://woozle.org/~neale/papers/reply-to-still-harmful.html Cheers, -- Thorsten -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Thorsten Behrens wrote (30-11-11 14:48) At any rate, here's the ultimate answer in this whole reply-to-munging debate (for who ever is amenable to technical argument): Me thinks there's different habits, skills, expectations with devs and non-devs (to put it black white) Since I have no time to really dive into the discussion, and am happy to work with both (libreoffice@fdo en users_etc_@) any outcome is OK for me... Hmm, maybe I'm in the mood for an experimental approach ;-) -- - Cor - http://nl.libreoffice.org -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Am 30.11.2011 14:48, schrieb Thorsten Behrens: At any rate, here's the ultimate answer in this whole reply-to-munging debate (for who ever is amenable to technical argument): http://woozle.org/~neale/papers/reply-to-still-harmful.html The issue was definitively settled in 2001, and Chip won. LOL this was a good one :-) thx, cheers Erich -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Hi, Michael Meeks wrote on 2011-11-28 16:45: Cool ! :-) having said that, I'd prefer it to be tried on a less high-volume list, where we could see the utility of attracting more participants (personally). I wanted to start on a high-volume list to see the impact. But looking at the replies, I think we should indeed vary from list to list. For discuss@ maybe it is not desired... Anyways, which lists would you like to start trying it on? To me a huge benefit of not reply-to mangling is to allow new people to interact with the list (and get replies to their mail) without being subscribed; that provides an easy on-ramp into the project, and IMHO that causes lots of problem. I see myself purging files from the archive because people did not know they were posting in public. And I see moderators moderating lots of messages... both not desirable. ;-) But maybe I'm exaggerating here, and giving it a try definitely shows the results, so let's do it. Of course, I would expect it to be opposed by people who are already members of a given community, and like not getting personal replies to messages in threads they start. I will adjust my filters soon, because getting replies in the inbox instead of in the list folder is annoying. But, ah, I think there is no real ideal solution to things. :) Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Board of Directors at The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Hi Michael, *, thanks for describing a scenario, where reply-to mangling hurts.. Am 28.11.2011 17:23 schrieb Michael Meeks: [..] * make it easy for established list users to avoid having to think whom they want to reply to, and needing to press ctrl-shift-r vs. ctrl-r (or whatever) or * make it easy for new and peripherally involved users to get replies to their casual E-mails without doing a long list of operations. or boil it down to: keep it simple (KISS). That does not necessarily mean: serve each one's habits (which is known *not* to be a simple thing ;o)) ). The most simple thing is to offer email as the plain information medium and let the sender and recipient handle the rest. Since starting this thread my approach is to improve the way to give advice, how to do so in a convenient fashion. reply-to is intended a means for the sender to decide where she wants the answer to be sent. To set it from a central place requires asking *every* member for approval to not disregard the posters freedom of choice to do so. The clean solution for a mailing list then was to provide the choice for each poster, whether she wants reply-to: $list set for the mails sent to her. We don't have this possibility for now, but maybe we have some day. (well, then the question rises whether it continues to be simple) ;o)). This topic (is|was) causing discussions over discussions because people try to rise weigth of their annoyance's degree by calling numbers or argueing about in general or logical expected behaviour. My assumption is: it was introduced, because it's a cheap cheat for the administrator to get rid of grief, kind of this is not a behaviour I'm used to whatever this was wrapped in. The question now is how to handle that situation. Should we consider to go the KISS way - not only with this issue but rather with other decisions within the project as well? And again: anyone interested in joining to improve the source of advice? Gruß/regards Friedrich -- Friedrich Strohmaier - Admin team - The Document Foundation http://www.documentfoundation.org/ -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Hi Friedrich, On Wed, 2011-11-23 at 23:45 +0100, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote: After getting reports about serious issues hindering efficient mail communication through the recent practiced reply-to mangling on our mailing lists, we from tech team are going for a test setup, switching it off for one - most likely this one. Cool ! :-) having said that, I'd prefer it to be tried on a less high-volume list, where we could see the utility of attracting more participants (personally). To me a huge benefit of not reply-to mangling is to allow new people to interact with the list (and get replies to their mail) without being subscribed; that provides an easy on-ramp into the project, and hopefully helps increase contribution: giving our community fuzzy edges. Of course, I would expect it to be opposed by people who are already members of a given community, and like not getting personal replies to messages in threads they start. I thought about to advance Italo's great compilation of posting style guidelines http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette towards a 7 golden rules making it a pleasure to read your mail style guideline flanked by an adopter's page where people can out themselves as adopters and supporters of that guidelines. Sounds rather lovely; making mails shorter, sweeter and easier to read by others (by snipping context, not top-posting etc.) is just basic politeness IMHO. Great to see Italo wrote that up. HTH, Michael. -- michael.me...@suse.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Hi guys,
On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 22:19 +0100, Stefan Weigel wrote:
From my point of view, the mailing list is the sender.
When I hit the Reply button, this has to go back to the sender,
who sent that to me, which is the mailing list and not Regina.
Sure sure. But you must get mail every day that is CC'd to several
people. Surely you get to understand the difference between Reply and
Reply to all ? the latter will keep the CC.
At the end of the day, IMHO all this comes down to a simple choice:
* make it easy for established list users to avoid having to
think whom they want to reply to, and needing to press
ctrl-shift-r vs. ctrl-r (or whatever)
or
* make it easy for new and peripherally involved users to get
replies to their casual E-mails without doing a long list of
operations.
Where by a long list of operations, I mean, that in order to get a
reply to your mail/question, first you need to:
a) be clueful and know you havn't a chance of getting a reply
b) send a mail to subscribe-foo@a.b.c
c) wait for the reply
d) confirm acceptance of mailing list
e) while (time max_time_wait_for_any_reply) {
f) recieve mail, delete uninteresting messages
g) read respond to tiny minority of messages that
are a reply to your query.
h) } send a mail to unsuscribe-foo@a.b.c
i) confirm un-subscribe from unsubscribe-foo@a.b.c
In my view, most people fall down at a) - they just never appear to get
a reply to their message. To ask someone to do steps b-i in order to
interact with us is one that strangles community IMHO.
HTH,
Michael.
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michael.me...@suse.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot
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Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Hi Michael,
Michael Meeks schrieb:
Hi guys,
On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 22:19 +0100, Stefan Weigel wrote:
From my point of view, the mailing list is the sender.
When I hit the Reply button, this has to go back to the sender,
who sent that to me, which is the mailing list and not Regina.
Sure sure. But you must get mail every day that is CC'd to several
people. Surely you get to understand the difference between Reply and
Reply to all ? the latter will keep the CC.
At the end of the day, IMHO all this comes down to a simple choice:
* make it easy for established list users to avoid having to
think whom they want to reply to, and needing to press
ctrl-shift-r vs. ctrl-r (or whatever)
or
* make it easy for new and peripherally involved users to get
replies to their casual E-mails without doing a long list of
operations.
Where by a long list of operations, I mean, that in order to get a
reply to your mail/question, first you need to:
a) be clueful and know you havn't a chance of getting a reply
b) send a mail to subscribe-foo@a.b.c
c) wait for the reply
d) confirm acceptance of mailing list
e) while (time max_time_wait_for_any_reply) {
f) recieve mail, delete uninteresting messages
g) read respond to tiny minority of messages that
are a reply to your query.
h) } send a mail to unsuscribe-foo@a.b.c
i) confirm un-subscribe from unsubscribe-foo@a.b.c
In my view, most people fall down at a) - they just never appear to get
a reply to their message. To ask someone to do steps b-i in order to
interact with us is one that strangles community IMHO.
I see no problem for this steps. That has worked all the time for our
German OOo-lists, so why shouldn't it work for an international list?
Users get a reply from the list moderator which describes what to do.
Those with support requests who do not like mailing lists, will use a
forum. If someone really wants to participate regularly, he needs to
subscribe anyway.
Kind regards
Regina
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Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Regina Henschel schrieb: I use Seamonkey for emails. All mailing lists I'm described to (and believe me that are a lot) behave in the way that a click on Antwort auf diese Nachricht replies to the list. So keep the documentfoundation.org lists to behave this way too. Hi, +1 I also prefer exactly that behavior. Rainer -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Am 25.11.2011 19:43, schrieb Regina Henschel: I use Seamonkey for emails. All mailing lists I'm described to (and believe me that are a lot) behave in the way that a click on Antwort auf diese Nachricht replies to the list. So keep the documentfoundation.org lists to behave this way too. + 1 The message above was written by Regina. Regina sent it to the mailing list. I didn´t receive it from Regina, but I got it from the mailing list. From my point of view, the mailing list is the sender. When I hit the Reply button, this has to go back to the sender, who sent that to me, which is the mailing list and not Regina. :-) Ergo, please don´t change the behaviour. Stefan -- LibreOffice - Die Freiheit nehm' ich mir! -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Regina Henschel wrote: All mailing lists I'm described to (and believe me that are a lot) behave in the way that a click on Antwort auf diese Nachricht replies to the list. So keep the documentfoundation.org lists to behave this way too. Only @lists.freedesktop.org behave not that way and that is very annoying. It results in accidentally sending only private answers Same for me. A mailing list, to me, is a group of people discussing together and transparently. When I answer a mailing list message, I'm speaking to everybody in the group and I expect this to be the default behaviour. If you really consider to change it, please let the [sub]scribers vote on it. Converting only one list, especially a -discuss list, seems a confusing move. At least, if one can separate behaviour by domain (i.e., freedesktop.org lists and documentfoundation.org/libreoffice.org lists), it takes less effort to remember when a reply should be addressed differently. However, it seems the experiment has been decided so let's go on, even though I believe that nobody will change his preferences after the experiment, so a preliminary poll would likely yield the same results. Regards, Andrea. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
