Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Fw: Re: Change in mailing list configuration

[David Bianco via Discuss]

Having [OSGeo-Discuss] in the subject field also helps with *visual* filtering. 
  For those of us who have 1 folder for all the listserv they are on (geo and 
non-geo).  Or, for emails that get fwd to non-listserv colleagues.

Dave


On Fri, Jan 12, 2024, at 08:58, Jody Garnett via Discuss wrote:
> Thanks folks, and thanks to Sandro and system admin team for managing all 
> this stuff.
> 
> I know from my own experience (website reboot) that by the time a change is 
> shared with disc...@osgoe.org list that the topic is already well underway; 
> and it is hard to slow down and introduce the change to the wider community.
> 
> When working on a lot of tickets it is difficult to predict which ones will 
> be noticed, let alone desire wider discussion.
> 
> suggestion: Perhaps the sysadmin committee could a send an email of planned 
> infrastructure changes each month. Then the community could notice any items 
> of interest for discussion. We would have to keep system admin committee 
> communication channels in mind and comment via the trac tickets.
> 
> aside: I was surprised that my own email filters navigated the change which 
> was set to filter [osgeo-discuss] ... but then I noticed I have a catch-all 
> filtering any osgeo lists server email to this folder.
> --
> Jody Garnett
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 8:21 AM Sandro Santilli  wrote:
>> On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 02:37:26PM +, Luís Moreira de Sousa wrote:
>> > Please read below, in addition to my questions, I note that with the new 
>> > setup my e-mail application no longer replies automatically to the list.
>> 
>> I went looking at the mails before the change also had Reply-To: real
>> author, so should have been the same. Please give it a try.
>> 
>> Meanwhile I'm going to revert the change.
>> 
>> --strk;
> ___
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> 
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Fw: Re: Change in mailing list configuration

[Jody Garnett via Discuss]

Thanks folks, and thanks to Sandro and system admin team for managing all
this stuff.

I know from my own experience (website reboot) that by the time a change is
shared with disc...@osgoe.org list that the topic is already well underway;
and it is hard to slow down and introduce the change to the wider community.

When working on a lot of tickets it is difficult to predict which ones will
be noticed, let alone desire wider discussion.

suggestion: Perhaps the sysadmin committee could a send an email of planned
infrastructure changes each month. Then the community could notice any
items of interest for discussion. We would have to keep system admin
committee communication channels in mind and comment via the trac tickets.

aside: I was surprised that my own email filters navigated the change which
was set to filter [osgeo-discuss] ... but then I noticed I have a catch-all
filtering any osgeo lists server email to this folder.
--
Jody Garnett


On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 8:21 AM Sandro Santilli  wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 02:37:26PM +, Luís Moreira de Sousa wrote:
> > Please read below, in addition to my questions, I note that with the new
> setup my e-mail application no longer replies automatically to the list.
>
> I went looking at the mails before the change also had Reply-To: real
> author, so should have been the same. Please give it a try.
>
> Meanwhile I'm going to revert the change.
>
> --strk;
>
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[OSGeo-Discuss] Mailing list config change reverted (was: Change in mailing list configuration)

[Sandro Santilli via Discuss]

On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 10:06:11AM -0500, Daniel Morissette wrote:
> On 2024-01-12 08:05, Jeroen Ticheler wrote:
> > Hi Sandro and others,
> > My suggestion would be to re-instate the old configuration and first
> > propose and discuss a possible update. Such discussion and eventual
> > update should be announced first before it is applied. The Discuss
> > mailing list, as other lists, has always worked well for me too. The
> > header [OSGeo-Discuss] is used by many of us to filter email and keep
> > things manageable. That can't just be modified on an important list as
> > Discuss without broader consent IMHO.
>
> I second Jeroen's thoughts and suggestion.

Ok, if everything worked as I expected, the change is now reverted.
Please please please help us shape recomendations for mailing list
configuration. Some discussion has been conducted on SAC mailing list,
some on other channels, and outcomes have been logged in Trac here:

  Trac ticket: https://trac.osgeo.org/osgeo/ticket/3011

Worth starting another thread to discuss other options ?

Does this list need new owners or are Frank and Arnulf still active ?

--strk;


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Re: Fw: Re: Change in mailing list configuration

[Sandro Santilli]

On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 02:37:26PM +, Luís Moreira de Sousa wrote:
> Please read below, in addition to my questions, I note that with the new 
> setup my e-mail application no longer replies automatically to the list.

I went looking at the mails before the change also had Reply-To: real
author, so should have been the same. Please give it a try.

Meanwhile I'm going to revert the change.

--strk;


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Description: PGP signature

Why adding a prefix breaks DKIM signature (was: Change in mailing list configuration)

[Sandro Santilli]

[ Adding discuss list back as I think this is of general interest )

On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 02:34:52PM +, Luís Moreira de Sousa wrote:
> Dear Sandro,
> 
> I am not qualified to opine on the DKIM configuration, but I would question 
> the removal of the prefix. All other pipermail list I am subscribed to add a 
> prefix to the subject. Could you explain why it had to be removed? Will this 
> decision affect the other OSGeo lists?


DKIM is a standard by which the mail server applies a cryptographic signature
to some elements of an email, to ensure it is not tampered with. 

Your mail (the one I'm reply to) contained the following signature:

  DKIM-Signature:
[..]
d=protonmail.ch;
h=Date:To:From:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:

That means that your mail server (protonmail.ch) applied a digital
ignature on the following email headers:

  - Date
  - To
  - From
  - Subject
  - Message-Id
  - In-Reply-To
  - References

The mail servers involved in getting the mail to me checked your
server signature and added an header with the outcome of the
verification:

  Authentication-Results:
hst.kbt.io; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; secure)

  Authentication-Results:
spool.mail.gandi.net;
dkim=pass

So both "spoo.mail.gandi.net" and "hst.kbt.io" where happy with your
signature. If Mailman injected a prefix in the "Subject" header
(which is among the ones signed by protonmail.ch) the servers of
recipients would detect the mail was modified and thus will consider
it suspicious.

--strk;


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Re: Change in mailing list configuration

[Daniel Morissette]

I second Jeroen's thoughts and suggestion.

Daniel


On 2024-01-12 08:05, Jeroen Ticheler wrote:

Hi Sandro and others,
My suggestion would be to re-instate the old configuration and first 
propose and discuss a possible update. Such discussion and eventual 
update should be announced first before it is applied. The Discuss 
mailing list, as other lists, has always worked well for me too. The 
header [OSGeo-Discuss] is used by many of us to filter email and keep 
things manageable. That can't just be modified on an important list as 
Discuss without broader consent IMHO.

My 2 cents. Cheers,
Jeroen



 On Fri, 12 Jan 2024 11:14:49 +0100 *Sandro Santilli * 
wrote ---


On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 09:35:30AM +0100, Christian Willmes wrote:
 > As far as I understood it, the mailing list will continue to work
as is in
 > the future? And discourse is only a mirror or an additional
interface for
 > those who prefer to communicate via this app?

This change has nothing to do with Discourse but with the ability of
people to see the email address of the people who post and to verify
that
they are reall who they claim to be.

The discussion happened in this ticket:

https://trac.osgeo.org/osgeo/ticket/3011


--strk;




--
Daniel Morissette
Mapgears Inc
T: +1 418-696-5056 #201

Fw: Re: Change in mailing list configuration

[Luí­s Moreira de Sousa]

Please read below, in addition to my questions, I note that with the new setup 
my e-mail application no longer replies automatically to the list.

Thank you.


--
Luís

Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

--- Forwarded Message ---
From: Luí­s Moreira de Sousa 
Date: On Friday, 12 January 2024 at 15:34
Subject: Re: Change in mailing list configuration
To: Sandro Santilli 


> Dear Sandro,
> 
> I am not qualified to opine on the DKIM configuration, but I would question 
> the removal of the prefix. All other pipermail lists I am subscribed to add a 
> prefix to the subject. Could you explain why it had to be removed? Will this 
> decision affect the other OSGeo lists too?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> --
> Luís
> 
> 
> Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
> 
> On Thursday, 11 January 2024 at 19:31, Sandro Santilli s...@kbt.io wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > We've changed the configuration of this mailing list to respect the
> > recomendations from the SysAdmin team:
> > 
> > https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/SAC:Mailing_Lists#Configuring_the_mailing_list
> > 
> > Notable changes are:
> > 
> > 1. No more [OSGeo-Discuss] prefix in email subjects
> > 2. No more added footer
> > 3. Real sender address in the From field
> > 4. DKIM signed emails will not be considered maliciously tampered \o/
> > 
> > For filtering the emails or finding mailing list address to change
> > user preferences you will be able to use the email headers.
> > 
> > Many mail user agents should be able to figure this out by themselves,
> > others might need manual configuration.
> > 
> > Just as an example, my mail configuration for the PostGIS Developers
> > looks like this (procmail recipe):
> > 
> > :0
> > * ^List-ID:.*postgis-devel.lists.osgeo.org
> > * !^X-List-Administrivia: yes
> > .postgis-devel/
> > 
> > Happy mailing !
> > 
> > --strk;
> > 
> > Libre GIS consultant/developer
> > https://strk.kbt.io/services.html

Re: Change in mailing list configuration

[Jeroen Ticheler]

Hi Sandro and others,
My suggestion would be to re-instate the old configuration and first propose 
and discuss a possible update. Such discussion and eventual update should be 
announced first before it is applied. The Discuss mailing list, as other lists, 
has always worked well for me too. The header [OSGeo-Discuss] is used by many 
of us to filter email and keep things manageable. That can't just be modified 
on an important list as Discuss without broader consent IMHO.

My 2 cents. Cheers,

Jeroen






 On Fri, 12 Jan 2024 11:14:49 +0100 Sandro Santilli  wrote ---



On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 09:35:30AM +0100, Christian Willmes wrote: 
> As far as I understood it, the mailing list will continue to work as is in 
> the future? And discourse is only a mirror or an additional interface for 
> those who prefer to communicate via this app? 
 
This change has nothing to do with Discourse but with the ability of 
people to see the email address of the people who post and to verify that 
they are reall who they claim to be. 
 
The discussion happened in this ticket: 
 
 https://trac.osgeo.org/osgeo/ticket/3011 
 
--strk;

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Mailing lists to discourse migration

[Christian Willmes]

I am all for opening up the conversation and adding additional 
interfaces to participate, but pleas without messing up or breaking the 
existing discussion channels.



Am 01.01.24 um 16:28 schrieb Sandro Santilli via Discuss:

On Fri, Dec 29, 2023 at 04:16:03PM +, Cannata Massimiliano via Discuss 
wrote:


it is a factual observation that there has been a sensible decline in the 
engagement of people in OSGeo...
Not in the conferences presences but in the remote collaboration and 
development...

This is a very interesting topic and I've been recently advocating
opening up access to some infrastructure related git repositories
with the specific aim of giving remote collaboration and development
more chances (you cannot collaborate in a private repository for sure)

--strk;

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--
Christian Willmes
AG GIS & Fernerkundung  | GIS & RS Group
Geographisches Institut | Institute of Geography
Universität zu Köln | University of Cologne
Tel.: +49 (0)221 470 6234
https://www.geographie.uni-koeln.de/14126.html
https://orcid.org/-0002-5566-6542
https://campusgis2.uni-koeln.de
https://virtueller-campus.uni-koeln.de/

Re: Change in mailing list configuration

[Sandro Santilli]

On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 09:35:30AM +0100, Christian Willmes wrote:
> As far as I understood it, the mailing list will continue to work as is in
> the future? And discourse is only a mirror or an additional interface for
> those who prefer to communicate via this app?

This change has nothing to do with Discourse but with the ability of
people to see the email address of the people who post and to verify that
they are reall who they claim to be. 

The discussion happened in this ticket:

  https://trac.osgeo.org/osgeo/ticket/3011

--strk;


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Re: Change in mailing list configuration

[Christian Willmes]

I notice, that the discuss list is *not* working as it was before.

Please re-add the [OSGeo-Discuss] prefix to the subject, you are messing 
with my filter configuration and I dislike this (very much).


Thank you for your service on the SAC but please can we at least have a 
formal vote on such major changes in the future *before* the change is 
conducted?


Thanks and best regards
Christian

Am 12.01.24 um 11:03 schrieb Sandro Santilli:

On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 10:32:06PM +0100, Javier Jimenez Shaw wrote:

Hi Sandro

It is surprising, but this is the first email from "discuss" that Gmail is
suggesting it could be spam. It says

"Be careful with this message
The sender hasn't authenticated this message, so Gmail can't verify that it
actually came from them."

I think this is because with the new configuration you're receiving the email
with MY email address rather than the OSGeo service email address as the sender,
so your mail server is evaluating MY reputation rather than the OSGeo one.

I clearly have to work on my email address reputation more (I do have
SPF setup but not DKIM).

--strk;


--
Christian Willmes
AG GIS & Fernerkundung  | GIS & RS Group
Geographisches Institut | Institute of Geography
Universität zu Köln | University of Cologne
Tel.: +49 (0)221 470 6234
https://www.geographie.uni-koeln.de/14126.html
https://orcid.org/-0002-5566-6542
https://campusgis2.uni-koeln.de
https://virtueller-campus.uni-koeln.de/

Re: Change in mailing list configuration

[Sandro Santilli]

On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 10:32:06PM +0100, Javier Jimenez Shaw wrote:
> Hi Sandro
> 
> It is surprising, but this is the first email from "discuss" that Gmail is
> suggesting it could be spam. It says
> 
> "Be careful with this message
> The sender hasn't authenticated this message, so Gmail can't verify that it
> actually came from them."

I think this is because with the new configuration you're receiving the email
with MY email address rather than the OSGeo service email address as the sender,
so your mail server is evaluating MY reputation rather than the OSGeo one.

I clearly have to work on my email address reputation more (I do have
SPF setup but not DKIM).

--strk;


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Description: PGP signature

Re: Change in mailing list configuration

[Christian Willmes]

As far as I understood it, the mailing list will continue to work as is 
in the future? And discourse is only a mirror or an additional interface 
for those who prefer to communicate via this app?


I will not use the discourse app, if this mailing list stops its 
service, I am out of the conversation as well.


Thanks and best regards
Christian

Am 12.01.24 um 09:30 schrieb Bruce Bannerman:

Well said Florian,

I won’t be far behind you.

…and we wonder why user engagement on the lists has dropped off.

I have made some great friends within the OSGeo community over the years. Best 
wishes to you all.

I’ll be decommissioning this email address in the near future.  If you’d like 
to stay in contact drop me a private email.

Kind regards,

Bruce



On 12 Jan 2024, at 19:05, Florian Ledermann  
wrote:

I'm unsubscribing in protest of those changes.

I was hoping that this proposal would be objected by more active community members, but 
as a mere lurker it is not worth it for me to engage in lengthy discussions, if the 
people in charge decide to break decodes-long established UX conventions on short notice 
for the sake of "spam protection". As far as I see it these developments are 
mainly driven by corporations who pursue the political goal of destroying independent 
email infrastructure, and I would have hoped the OS community to resist those 
developments instead of happily nodding along.

Best, Florian



On 11.01.2024 19:31, Sandro Santilli wrote:
We've changed the configuration of this mailing list to respect the
recomendations from the SysAdmin team:
 https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/SAC:Mailing_Lists#Configuring_the_mailing_list
Notable changes are:
   1. No more [OSGeo-Discuss] prefix in email subjects
   2. No more added footer
   3. Real sender address in the From field
   4. DKIM signed emails will not be considered maliciously tampered \o/
For filtering the emails or finding mailing list address to change
user preferences you will be able to use the email headers.
Many mail user agents should be able to figure this out by themselves,
others might need manual configuration.
Just as an example, my mail configuration for the PostGIS Developers
looks like this (procmail recipe):
   :0
   * ^List-ID:.*postgis-devel.lists.osgeo.org
   * !^X-List-Administrivia: yes
   .postgis-devel/
Happy mailing !
--strk;
   Libre GIS consultant/developer
   https://strk.kbt.io/services.html

--
Dipl.-Ing. Dr. Florian Ledermann
Senior Lecturer
Cartography Research Group
Department of Geodesy and Geoinformation
TU Wien, Vienna, Austria

Check out my list of Mastodon accounts for cartography & GIS:
=>  https://cartolab.at/cartography-on-mastodon/  <=

https://cartography.tuwien.ac.at/florian-ledermann/
https://mapstodon.space/@floledermann


--
Christian Willmes
AG GIS & Fernerkundung  | GIS & RS Group
Geographisches Institut | Institute of Geography
Universität zu Köln | University of Cologne
Tel.: +49 (0)221 470 6234
https://www.geographie.uni-koeln.de/14126.html
https://orcid.org/-0002-5566-6542
https://campusgis2.uni-koeln.de
https://virtueller-campus.uni-koeln.de/

Re: Change in mailing list configuration

[Bruce Bannerman]

Well said Florian,

I won’t be far behind you.

…and we wonder why user engagement on the lists has dropped off.

I have made some great friends within the OSGeo community over the years. Best 
wishes to you all.

I’ll be decommissioning this email address in the near future.  If you’d like 
to stay in contact drop me a private email.

Kind regards,

Bruce


> On 12 Jan 2024, at 19:05, Florian Ledermann  
> wrote:
> 
> I'm unsubscribing in protest of those changes.
> 
> I was hoping that this proposal would be objected by more active community 
> members, but as a mere lurker it is not worth it for me to engage in lengthy 
> discussions, if the people in charge decide to break decodes-long established 
> UX conventions on short notice for the sake of "spam protection". As far as I 
> see it these developments are mainly driven by corporations who pursue the 
> political goal of destroying independent email infrastructure, and I would 
> have hoped the OS community to resist those developments instead of happily 
> nodding along.
> 
> Best, Florian
> 
> 
>> On 11.01.2024 19:31, Sandro Santilli wrote:
>> We've changed the configuration of this mailing list to respect the
>> recomendations from the SysAdmin team:
>> 
>> https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/SAC:Mailing_Lists#Configuring_the_mailing_list
>> Notable changes are:
>>   1. No more [OSGeo-Discuss] prefix in email subjects
>>   2. No more added footer
>>   3. Real sender address in the From field
>>   4. DKIM signed emails will not be considered maliciously tampered \o/
>> For filtering the emails or finding mailing list address to change
>> user preferences you will be able to use the email headers.
>> Many mail user agents should be able to figure this out by themselves,
>> others might need manual configuration.
>> Just as an example, my mail configuration for the PostGIS Developers
>> looks like this (procmail recipe):
>>   :0
>>   * ^List-ID:.*postgis-devel.lists.osgeo.org
>>   * !^X-List-Administrivia: yes
>>   .postgis-devel/
>> Happy mailing !
>> --strk;
>>   Libre GIS consultant/developer
>>   https://strk.kbt.io/services.html
> 
> -- 
> Dipl.-Ing. Dr. Florian Ledermann
> Senior Lecturer
> Cartography Research Group
> Department of Geodesy and Geoinformation
> TU Wien, Vienna, Austria
> 
> Check out my list of Mastodon accounts for cartography & GIS:
> =>  https://cartolab.at/cartography-on-mastodon/  <=
> 
> https://cartography.tuwien.ac.at/florian-ledermann/
> https://mapstodon.space/@floledermann

Re: Change in mailing list configuration

[Florian Ledermann]

I'm unsubscribing in protest of those changes.

I was hoping that this proposal would be objected by more active 
community members, but as a mere lurker it is not worth it for me to 
engage in lengthy discussions, if the people in charge decide to break 
decodes-long established UX conventions on short notice for the sake of 
"spam protection". As far as I see it these developments are mainly 
driven by corporations who pursue the political goal of destroying 
independent email infrastructure, and I would have hoped the OS 
community to resist those developments instead of happily nodding along.


Best, Florian


On 11.01.2024 19:31, Sandro Santilli wrote:

We've changed the configuration of this mailing list to respect the
recomendations from the SysAdmin team:

 https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/SAC:Mailing_Lists#Configuring_the_mailing_list

Notable changes are:

   1. No more [OSGeo-Discuss] prefix in email subjects
   2. No more added footer
   3. Real sender address in the From field
   4. DKIM signed emails will not be considered maliciously tampered \o/

For filtering the emails or finding mailing list address to change
user preferences you will be able to use the email headers.

Many mail user agents should be able to figure this out by themselves,
others might need manual configuration.

Just as an example, my mail configuration for the PostGIS Developers
looks like this (procmail recipe):

   :0
   * ^List-ID:.*postgis-devel.lists.osgeo.org
   * !^X-List-Administrivia: yes
   .postgis-devel/

Happy mailing !

--strk;

   Libre GIS consultant/developer
   https://strk.kbt.io/services.html


--
Dipl.-Ing. Dr. Florian Ledermann
Senior Lecturer
Cartography Research Group
Department of Geodesy and Geoinformation
TU Wien, Vienna, Austria

Check out my list of Mastodon accounts for cartography & GIS:
=>  https://cartolab.at/cartography-on-mastodon/  <=

https://cartography.tuwien.ac.at/florian-ledermann/
https://mapstodon.space/@floledermann