Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Standards] Live DVD and OGC standards
Dr. Baumann, Lighting my torch...;-) On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 5:12 PM, Baumann, Peter p.baum...@jacobs-university.de wrote: Finally, my personal 2 cents: I feel the future is with services, not formats will decide in future. Do I care, in my browser, whether I see PNG or JPEG or...GIF? http functionality, Ajax and the like is what I care about. Flames on... ;-) I like using Services when that are open standard formats, but services are ephemeral. A local source in an open standard format is better for archival / reproduction of work products. Doug cheers, Peter -- Dr. Peter Baumann- Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen http://www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann mail: p.baumann@jacobs-university.detel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178 - Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793) http://www.rasdaman.com, mail: baum...@rasdaman.com tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882 Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec preripiat quisquam non sibi parata. (mail disclaimer, AD 1083) From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] on behalf of Stefan Keller [sfkel...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 10:59 PM To: Carl Reed Cc: osgeo-discuss; TC Discuss; standa...@lists.osgeo.org Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Standards] Live DVD and OGC standards Hi Carl 2013/7/8 Carl Reed cr...@opengeospatial.org: The idea that the OGC process would significantly change something like GeoRSS is untrue. I would like to slightly disagree here and point to the ongoing GeoPackage standardization. Referring to the initial question, GeoPackage with SQLite/Spatialite format would have a chance to become the Shapefile of the future. The OGC just recently had the chance to adopt this existing encoding - but unfortunately voted against in favor of an own spec. To be fair to OGC (which I respect) I'd have to say that such political decisions happen to most standardization bodies. Yours, Stefan 2013/7/8 Carl Reed cr...@opengeospatial.org: Allan - I respectfully disagree with your comment regarding the authors not wanting to bring GeoRSS into the OGC. I know that Raj, myself and other original authors would support bringing GeoRSS into the OGC as is. The idea that the OGC process would significantly change something like GeoRSS is untrue. A good recent example is Open GeoSMS. That candidate standard was developed externally and submitted into the OGC. The normative content was not changed at all other than making one tag consistent with some IETF RFCs (HELD, LoST, etc). We also separated the normative text from the informative examples (primer) which made the standard very short and easier to understand. Additional eyes on a document does not necessarily mean any normative change but does mean improvement to the document (grammar, wording, clarity, etc). Cheers Carl - Original Message - From: Arnulf Christl arnulf.chri...@metaspatial.net To: standa...@lists.osgeo.org, TC Discuss tc-disc...@lists.opengeospatial.org Sent: Monday, July 8, 2013 9:11:27 AM Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Standards] [OSGeo-Discuss] Live DVD and OGC standards On 08.07.2013 14:14, Rushforth, Peter wrote: Hi Allan, The counter-example is actually GeoTIFF, which was proposed as an OGC format a long, long time ago, by the original authors of the spec. At the time, it was rejected specifically because the TC felt that OGC should not be standardizing file specs, but rather should be standardizing interfaces. Ironic, because the strength of the Web is based on 'file' specs. The geo community needs to think less about interfaces and more about how to communicate state through files. Cheers, Peter Peter, so true, I couldn't agree more. Why is it that there is a perception that the OGC should not work on data formats but only interfaces? Is this still the case? With GML and KML there are two strong existing data standards. GeoPackage is not exactly just a media format but ships with code - an ideal package so to say, and by any means not just an interface standard. GeoRSS and GeoJSON would not be hard to go forward with but for some reason it never happened. Cheers, Arnulf -- Arnulf Christl (Executive Director) Open Source Geospatial Software, Data and Services http://www.metaspatial.net ___ Standards mailing list standa...@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/standards ___ Standards mailing list standa...@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/standards
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Standards] Live DVD and OGC standards
absolutely so! If you want to access data items as a whole piece, and the item fits through the pipe conveniently then I am fully on board. However, sometimes we want to get pieces that fit the pipe (and convenient for us to chew), and we want something to be done - my favorite example on remote sensing imagery is the vegetation index. Or even a histogram: my fav here is CSV, or JSON, or... but not to download a NetCDF file. So, as so often: it depends. cheers, Peter -- Dr. Peter Baumann- Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen http://www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann mail: p.baumann@jacobs-university.detel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178 - Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)http://www.rasdaman.com, mail: baum...@rasdaman.com tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882 Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec preripiat quisquam non sibi parata. (mail disclaimer, AD 1083) From: Newcomb, Doug [doug_newc...@fws.gov] Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 11:26 PM To: Baumann, Peter Cc: Stefan Keller; Carl Reed; osgeo-discuss; TC Discuss; standa...@lists.osgeo.org Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Standards] Live DVD and OGC standards Dr. Baumann, Lighting my torch...;-) On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 5:12 PM, Baumann, Peter p.baum...@jacobs-university.demailto:p.baum...@jacobs-university.de wrote: Finally, my personal 2 cents: I feel the future is with services, not formats will decide in future. Do I care, in my browser, whether I see PNG or JPEG or...GIF? http functionality, Ajax and the like is what I care about. Flames on... ;-) I like using Services when that are open standard formats, but services are ephemeral. A local source in an open standard format is better for archival / reproduction of work products. Doug cheers, Peter -- Dr. Peter Baumann- Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen http://www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann mail: p.baumann@jacobs-university.detel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178 - Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)http://www.rasdaman.com, mail: baum...@rasdaman.commailto:baum...@rasdaman.com tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882 Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec preripiat quisquam non sibi parata. (mail disclaimer, AD 1083) From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.orgmailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.orgmailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] on behalf of Stefan Keller [sfkel...@gmail.commailto:sfkel...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 10:59 PM To: Carl Reed Cc: osgeo-discuss; TC Discuss; standa...@lists.osgeo.orgmailto:standa...@lists.osgeo.org Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Standards] Live DVD and OGC standards Hi Carl 2013/7/8 Carl Reed cr...@opengeospatial.orgmailto:cr...@opengeospatial.org: The idea that the OGC process would significantly change something like GeoRSS is untrue. I would like to slightly disagree here and point to the ongoing GeoPackage standardization. Referring to the initial question, GeoPackage with SQLite/Spatialite format would have a chance to become the Shapefile of the future. The OGC just recently had the chance to adopt this existing encoding - but unfortunately voted against in favor of an own spec. To be fair to OGC (which I respect) I'd have to say that such political decisions happen to most standardization bodies. Yours, Stefan 2013/7/8 Carl Reed cr...@opengeospatial.orgmailto:cr...@opengeospatial.org: Allan - I respectfully disagree with your comment regarding the authors not wanting to bring GeoRSS into the OGC. I know that Raj, myself and other original authors would support bringing GeoRSS into the OGC as is. The idea that the OGC process would significantly change something like GeoRSS is untrue. A good recent example is Open GeoSMS. That candidate standard was developed externally and submitted into the OGC. The normative content was not changed at all other than making one tag consistent with some IETF RFCs (HELD, LoST, etc). We also separated the normative text from the informative examples (primer) which made the standard very short and easier to understand. Additional eyes on a document does not necessarily mean any normative change but does mean improvement to the document (grammar, wording, clarity, etc). Cheers Carl - Original Message - From: Arnulf Christl arnulf.chri...@metaspatial.netmailto:arnulf.chri...@metaspatial.net To: standa...@lists.osgeo.orgmailto:standa...@lists.osgeo.org, TC Discuss tc-disc...@lists.opengeospatial.orgmailto:tc-disc
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Standards] Live DVD and OGC standards
Peter, Yep, sometimes users don't want to bite off the whole piece. Personally, I feel the future is a mix of open data formats (XML, CSV, JSON etc) and open data services... Regards, Jeff Jeff Harrison The Carbon Project Twitter: @JeffHarrison Sent from my iPhone On Jul 8, 2013, at 5:55 PM, Baumann, Peter p.baum...@jacobs-university.de wrote: absolutely so! If you want to access data items as a whole piece, and the item fits through the pipe conveniently then I am fully on board. However, sometimes we want to get pieces that fit the pipe (and convenient for us to chew), and we want something to be done - my favorite example on remote sensing imagery is the vegetation index. Or even a histogram: my fav here is CSV, or JSON, or... but not to download a NetCDF file. So, as so often: it depends. cheers, Peter -- Dr. Peter Baumann- Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen http://www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann mail: p.baumann@jacobs-university.detel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178 - Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)http://www.rasdaman.com, mail: baum...@rasdaman.com tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882 Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec preripiat quisquam non sibi parata. (mail disclaimer, AD 1083) From: Newcomb, Doug [doug_newc...@fws.gov] Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 11:26 PM To: Baumann, Peter Cc: Stefan Keller; Carl Reed; osgeo-discuss; TC Discuss; standa...@lists.osgeo.org Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Standards] Live DVD and OGC standards Dr. Baumann, Lighting my torch...;-) On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 5:12 PM, Baumann, Peter p.baum...@jacobs-university.de wrote: Finally, my personal 2 cents: I feel the future is with services, not formats will decide in future. Do I care, in my browser, whether I see PNG or JPEG or...GIF? http functionality, Ajax and the like is what I care about. Flames on... ;-) I like using Services when that are open standard formats, but services are ephemeral. A local source in an open standard format is better for archival / reproduction of work products. Doug cheers, Peter -- Dr. Peter Baumann- Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen http://www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann mail: p.baumann@jacobs-university.detel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178 - Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)http://www.rasdaman.com, mail: baum...@rasdaman.com tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882 Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec preripiat quisquam non sibi parata. (mail disclaimer, AD 1083) From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] on behalf of Stefan Keller [sfkel...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 10:59 PM To: Carl Reed Cc: osgeo-discuss; TC Discuss; standa...@lists.osgeo.org Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Standards] Live DVD and OGC standards Hi Carl 2013/7/8 Carl Reed cr...@opengeospatial.org: The idea that the OGC process would significantly change something like GeoRSS is untrue. I would like to slightly disagree here and point to the ongoing GeoPackage standardization. Referring to the initial question, GeoPackage with SQLite/Spatialite format would have a chance to become the Shapefile of the future. The OGC just recently had the chance to adopt this existing encoding - but unfortunately voted against in favor of an own spec. To be fair to OGC (which I respect) I'd have to say that such political decisions happen to most standardization bodies. Yours, Stefan 2013/7/8 Carl Reed cr...@opengeospatial.org: Allan - I respectfully disagree with your comment regarding the authors not wanting to bring GeoRSS into the OGC. I know that Raj, myself and other original authors would support bringing GeoRSS into the OGC as is. The idea that the OGC process would significantly change something like GeoRSS is untrue. A good recent example is Open GeoSMS. That candidate standard was developed externally and submitted into the OGC. The normative content was not changed at all other than making one tag consistent with some IETF RFCs (HELD, LoST, etc). We also separated the normative text from the informative examples (primer) which made the standard very short and easier to understand. Additional eyes on a document does not necessarily mean any normative change but does mean improvement to the document (grammar, wording, clarity, etc). Cheers Carl - Original Message - From: Arnulf Christl
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Standards] Live DVD and OGC standards
good point you make, Jeff - maybe we should see both as two sides of the same coin, actually. -Peter -- Dr. Peter Baumann- Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen http://www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann mail: p.baumann@jacobs-university.detel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178 - Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)http://www.rasdaman.com, mail: baum...@rasdaman.com tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882 Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec preripiat quisquam non sibi parata. (mail disclaimer, AD 1083) From: Jeff Harrison [jharri...@thecarbonproject.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 12:25 AM To: Baumann, Peter Cc: Newcomb, Doug; TC Discuss; osgeo-discuss; Carl Reed; standa...@lists.osgeo.org Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Standards] Live DVD and OGC standards Peter, Yep, sometimes users don't want to bite off the whole piece. Personally, I feel the future is a mix of open data formats (XML, CSV, JSON etc) and open data services... Regards, Jeff Jeff Harrison The Carbon Project Twitter: @JeffHarrison Sent from my iPhone On Jul 8, 2013, at 5:55 PM, Baumann, Peter p.baum...@jacobs-university.demailto:p.baum...@jacobs-university.de wrote: absolutely so! If you want to access data items as a whole piece, and the item fits through the pipe conveniently then I am fully on board. However, sometimes we want to get pieces that fit the pipe (and convenient for us to chew), and we want something to be done - my favorite example on remote sensing imagery is the vegetation index. Or even a histogram: my fav here is CSV, or JSON, or... but not to download a NetCDF file. So, as so often: it depends. cheers, Peter -- Dr. Peter Baumann- Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen http://www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann mail: p.baumann@jacobs-university.detelmailto:p.baumann@jacobs-university.detel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178 - Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)http://www.rasdaman.com, mail: baum...@rasdaman.commailto:baum...@rasdaman.com tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882 Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec preripiat quisquam non sibi parata. (mail disclaimer, AD 1083) From: Newcomb, Doug [doug_newc...@fws.govmailto:doug_newc...@fws.gov] Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 11:26 PM To: Baumann, Peter Cc: Stefan Keller; Carl Reed; osgeo-discuss; TC Discuss; standa...@lists.osgeo.orgmailto:standa...@lists.osgeo.org Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Standards] Live DVD and OGC standards Dr. Baumann, Lighting my torch...;-) On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 5:12 PM, Baumann, Peter p.baum...@jacobs-university.demailto:p.baum...@jacobs-university.de wrote: Finally, my personal 2 cents: I feel the future is with services, not formats will decide in future. Do I care, in my browser, whether I see PNG or JPEG or...GIF? http functionality, Ajax and the like is what I care about. Flames on... ;-) I like using Services when that are open standard formats, but services are ephemeral. A local source in an open standard format is better for archival / reproduction of work products. Doug cheers, Peter -- Dr. Peter Baumann- Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen http://www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann mail: p.baumann@jacobs-university.detelmailto:p.baumann@jacobs-university.detel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178 - Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)http://www.rasdaman.com, mail: baum...@rasdaman.commailto:baum...@rasdaman.com tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882 Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec preripiat quisquam non sibi parata. (mail disclaimer, AD 1083) From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.orgmailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.orgmailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] on behalf of Stefan Keller [sfkel...@gmail.commailto:sfkel...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 10:59 PM To: Carl Reed Cc: osgeo-discuss; TC Discuss; standa...@lists.osgeo.orgmailto:standa...@lists.osgeo.org Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Standards] Live DVD and OGC standards Hi Carl 2013/7/8 Carl Reed cr...@opengeospatial.orgmailto:cr...@opengeospatial.org: The idea that the OGC process would significantly change something like GeoRSS is untrue. I would like to slightly disagree here and point to the ongoing GeoPackage standardization. Referring to the initial
