Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case
Well said Sanghee __ Steven On 25 Jun 2015, at 02:21, Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com wrote: Hello Darrell, I don’t think the reason why OSGeo has not so many women are caused by lacking of CoC in OSGeo. According to the statistics National Centre for Education Statistics[0], women have outnumbered men in American colleges for last 35 years. However women just selected another jobs rather than programming or geospatial. It’s not our fault. I couldn’t recall any decisive moment that lacking of CoC in OSGeo excluded participation of female except recent comments from Kate. It’s very similar in Korea as well. More than 45% of college students are female. However they *DO* select another jobs instead of selecting programming or geospatial. That’s why only around 10% are female in Korean Chapter. It’s not because lacking of CoC. If we want to be a broad community, a global community, also truly reflective of the whole world, we’d better discuss how to effectively engage other members from 3rd countries or developing countries. Do you know people in Asia outnumber the other part of the world? Frankly to say I haven’t seen any much effort from OSGeo to try to engage members from developing countries. Ah.. we have travel grants once a year. You said, If our FOSS4G community does not reflect the entire world, then we are failing to engage all people, or worse, chasing some of them away.” Great! And then what is the real relation between your phrase and CoC. Do you really believe that imposing CoC automatically make OSGeo more welcomed organisation to 3rd countries or developing countries members? I feel that CoC is for white women in advanced countries. I know I might be wrong. However whenever we talk about CoC, it’s all about sexy image or something like that. It’s not about how to engage 2/3 of world population. All the best, Sanghee [0]http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_303.10.asp --- Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul! http://2015.foss4g.org Twitter: @foss4g Facebook: FOSS4G2015 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org 2015. 6. 24., 오후 10:42, Darrell Fuhriman darr...@garnix.org 작성: I’m not sure who the “we” you are referring to here is, but it certainly does not include me. I am absolutely, 100%, interested in having more women become engaged in FOSS4G. Please don’t make such sweeping generalizations. We are a broad community, a global community, but we are not truly reflective of the whole world. We are largely white men from wealthy countries. I *want* people engaged and passionate about FOSS4G. And that means making sure have a community where *everyone* feels welcome. If our FOSS4G community does not reflect the entire world, then we are failing to engage all people, or worse, chasing some of them away. A CoC is not a sign that we are dying, a CoC is a sign that we acknowledge that we are insufficiently inclusive, and that we as a community will not stand for that. It’s a sign that says “We do not want behaviors that drive people away, behaviors that make our community *smaller*. We are a welcoming community and we want *you* to be part of it.”Is a CoC sufficient to create that community? Absolutely not, but it’s a step forwards. A flag in the ground — a flag that says, “We welcome you!” If we’re afraid of that, then we truly are a dying community, and one that deserves to meet its quiet, irrelevant end. Darrell We are not interested in more women to become engaged in FOSS4G. We are interested in people engaged and passionate about FOSS4G. We don't care about the sex, the colour, the religious or the operating system. Why are we interested specifically in more women? There is a large and growing business behind FOSS4G, which is an huge accomplishment of FOSS4G, that we should care and maintain. It is ok to have some grey people with a strange piece of cloth knotted at the throat attending FOSS4G and moving around. ___ Conference_dev mailing list conference_...@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev ___ Conference_dev mailing list conference_...@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case
Why don't the women take the place and the power by themselves? Le 25 juin 2015 08:19:25 UTC+02:00, Darrell Fuhriman darr...@garnix.org a écrit : On Jun 24, 2015, at 20:35, Darrell Fuhriman darr...@garnix.org wrote: This is false. Simply false. If people are abused out of a line of work until they quit, that’s not “women choosing other jobs” anymore than me walking into your house, punching you in the face until you leave then claiming “He abandoned it” means it’s not my fault. BTW, I want to draw attention to the fact that this isn’t news. We’ve known this for a long time (the research below is from 2008), The problem is staring us the face, and a tremendous number of people in our community remain in denial about it. Please read: https://hbr.org/2008/06/stopping-the-exodus-of-women-in-science https://hbr.org/2008/06/stopping-the-exodus-of-women-in-science http://documents.library.nsf.gov/edocs/HD6060-.A84-2008-PDF-Athena-factor-Reversing-the-brain-drain-in-science,-engineering,-and-technology.pdf http://documents.library.nsf.gov/edocs/HD6060-.A84-2008-PDF-Athena-factor-Reversing-the-brain-drain-in-science,-engineering,-and-technology.pdf Key quotes: “Our research findings show that on the lower rungs of corporate career ladders, fully 41% of highly qualified scientists, engineers, and technologists are women. But the dropout rates are huge: Over time 52% of these talented women quit their jobs. […] So why do women leave science, engineering, and technology careers The answer comes in five parts. First and foremost, the hostility of the workplace culture drives them out. If machismo is on the run in most U.S. corporate settings, then this is its Alamo—a last holdout of redoubled intensity.” I realize this study is US focused, but I’ve seen nothing to indicate that the US is any way an outlier in these matters. Darrell ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss clem...@igonet.fr___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case
Hi Sanghee, thanks for bringing this into the open. There are a lot of strong feelings/opinions on this subject, which as a strong community we will work through. The Dali painting seems innocent. The girl band photo, lacking a lot of context, says to me come to South Korea for the pretty ladies. That is obviously not your intended message. If you had a montage of other artists from the K-Pop scene (boy-bands, the gangman style guy, etc, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_in_South_Korean_music) it would make your point in a completely non-controversial way. There's a lot of cool culture going on! Keep your head down and plan the best conference ever. We are all on your side to make it successful. The rest of us will *slowly* work our way through the best way to increase diversity and implement our new CoC. :-) Cheers, Percy On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 3:22 AM, Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com wrote: Dear All, It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case. I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones. I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view. However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions. I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference. I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases. *Sidenote for defending myself: - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2] - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia. All the best, Sanghee [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct [1]http://2015.foss4g.org [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation --- Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul! http://2015.foss4g.org Twitter: @foss4g Facebook: FOSS4G2015 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org ___ Conference_dev mailing list conference_...@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev -- David Percy (Percy) -Geospatial Data Manager -Web Map Wrangler -GIS Instructor Portland State University -gisgeek.pdx.edu -geology.pdx.edu ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case
There are other aspects to Seoul culture besides K-pop. A montage of several images showing a range of cultural aspects would de-emphasize the sex aspect. ... For contrast, ~everyone on the planet would recognize Psy. If you had a montage of other artists from the K-Pop scene (boy-bands, the gangman style guy, etc, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_in_South_Korean_music) it would make your point in a completely non-controversial way. There's a lot of cool culture going on! See? Even if they don't know Psy's name...they know who he is. :D -- Pat P.S. Its a frequent, and puzzling, observation that in meetings or other discussions, women's ideas get ignored or dismissed, but then if repeated by a man, they are greeted with approval. For more on this, see Deborah Tannen's book Talking from 9 to 5. Apologies to David for using him as an innocent example. :D ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case
Dear All and, above All, Sanghee, in my opinion the general theme you are touching is so important that it deserves a deeper discussion. CoC is just a blanket. Below we can find fundamental concepts of diversity and equality (and the practical actions for implementing them) or hot air (this is an Italian idiomatic expression meaning empty talk, just suitable for chatting but not for acting ). I know that this community is interested in the former. Next occasion will be Seul. Sanghee, is it possible to have a meeting for discussing this points in Seul? Something like Equality, Diversity and Conduct of and within OSGeo? ( the title probably doesn't sound perfect in English, but, well I'm not an English lady, and this is another diversity ;-) ) Thanks Charles for taking the lid off. And thanks Sanghee for having put Dali's masterpiece and the female k-pop group in your slides! Best. Maria Prof. Maria Antonia Brovelli Vice Rector for Como Campus and GIS Professor Politecnico di Milano FOSS4G EUROPE - Don't miss it! Home ISPRS WG IV/5 Web and Cloud Based Geospatial Services and Applications; OSGeo; ICA-OSGeo-ISPRS Advisory Board; NASA WorldWind Europa Challenge; SIFET Via Natta, 12/14 - 22100 COMO (ITALY) Tel. +39-031-3327336 - Mob. +39-328-0023867 - fax. +39-031-3327321 e-mail1: maria.brove...@polimi.it e-mail2: prorettr...@como.polimi.it Il giorno 25/giu/2015, alle ore 05:35, Darrell Fuhriman darr...@garnix.org ha scritto: I don’t think the reason why OSGeo has not so many women are caused by lacking of CoC in OSGeo. According to the statistics National Centre for Education Statistics[0], women have outnumbered men in American colleges for last 35 years. Great. Why are so few of them in positions of power? Why aren’t a majority of our CEOs women? Why aren’t a majority of our biologists women? Why aren’t a majority of our legislators women? We can come up with all sorts of excuses to dance around the problem, because we’d rather go through mental contortions than admit the obvious: sexism in ubiquitous . (For a related discussion, I recommend the book “Racism without Racists” which thoroughly examines how a lot of people who don’t think of themselves as racist actually take part in behaviors and support structures that are in fact, racist.) However women just selected another jobs rather than programming or geospatial. It’s not our fault. I couldn’t recall any decisive moment that lacking of CoC in OSGeo excluded participation of female except recent comments from Kate. This is false. Simply false. If people are abused out of a line of work until they quit, that’s not “women choosing other jobs” anymore than me walking into your house, punching you in the face until you leave then claiming “He abandoned it” means it’s not my fault. It *is* our fault. It’s systemic and it’s pernicious. And honestly, it doesn’t take much looking to find stories of women who have left technical fields because they’re tired of the abuse. But the reality is most of them quietly leave, so when people say, “I can’t recall a time that happened…” it’s not because it doesn’t happen, it’s because those people aren’t paying attention. It’s very similar in Korea as well. More than 45% of college students are female. However they *DO* select another jobs instead of selecting programming or geospatial. That’s why only around 10% are female in Korean Chapter. It’s not because lacking of CoC. Are you sure? I mean this seriously. Do you have evidence for that, or are you just assuming? I’m not fetishizing the CoC itself, obviously having a CoC doesn’t magically make an open community, but it’s a symbol that the community does take inclusivity seriously. If we want to be a broad community, a global community, also truly reflective of the whole world, we’d better discuss how to effectively engage other members from 3rd countries or developing countries. Do you know people in Asia outnumber the other part of the world? Frankly to say I haven’t seen any much effort from OSGeo to try to engage members from developing countries. Ah.. we have travel grants once a year. You will not get an argument for me. I’ve been arguing for a long time that there needs to be concerted and honest outreach to the rest of the world. So far the OSGeo model has been “build it and they they will come” (to use a Hollywood reference). This is, of course, hogwash. I’ve had a number of conversations about how OSGeo should be sponsoring workshops around world. Spending the money produced by FOSS4G to put on “FOSS4G East Africa” even if it loses money. I want there to be FOSS4G Ouagadougou, FOSS4G Kuala Lampur, FOSS4G Vietnam, FOSS4G Uruguay. That’s the world I want. You said, If our FOSS4G community does not reflect the entire world, then we are failing to engage all
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case
On Jun 24, 2015, at 20:35, Darrell Fuhriman darr...@garnix.org wrote: This is false. Simply false. If people are abused out of a line of work until they quit, that’s not “women choosing other jobs” anymore than me walking into your house, punching you in the face until you leave then claiming “He abandoned it” means it’s not my fault. BTW, I want to draw attention to the fact that this isn’t news. We’ve known this for a long time (the research below is from 2008), The problem is staring us the face, and a tremendous number of people in our community remain in denial about it. Please read: https://hbr.org/2008/06/stopping-the-exodus-of-women-in-science https://hbr.org/2008/06/stopping-the-exodus-of-women-in-science http://documents.library.nsf.gov/edocs/HD6060-.A84-2008-PDF-Athena-factor-Reversing-the-brain-drain-in-science,-engineering,-and-technology.pdf http://documents.library.nsf.gov/edocs/HD6060-.A84-2008-PDF-Athena-factor-Reversing-the-brain-drain-in-science,-engineering,-and-technology.pdf Key quotes: “Our research findings show that on the lower rungs of corporate career ladders, fully 41% of highly qualified scientists, engineers, and technologists are women. But the dropout rates are huge: Over time 52% of these talented women quit their jobs. […] So why do women leave science, engineering, and technology careers The answer comes in five parts. First and foremost, the hostility of the workplace culture drives them out. If machismo is on the run in most U.S. corporate settings, then this is its Alamo—a last holdout of redoubled intensity.” I realize this study is US focused, but I’ve seen nothing to indicate that the US is any way an outlier in these matters. Darrell ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case
On Jun 24, 2015, at 23:26, clem...@igonet.fr wrote: Why don't the women take the place and the power by themselves? Why don’t the poor take from the rich? Why don’t the weak take from the strong? Why don’t the slaves take over the master’s house? The question should answer itself. Darrell ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case
Le mercredi 24 juin 2015 13:29:43, Gert-Jan van der Weijden - Stichting OSGeo.nl a écrit : In my opinion as well there is not a problem, especially since both pictures are used within a certain context. However, I realize I'm looking through a Western-european, liberal cultural perspective. Perhaps someone from for instance the Senegal local OSGeo chapter can comment on this from a different cultural point of view? This is tricky. I'm afraid that If you take the lowest common denominator of all cultures of the world, you will be able to do little (what is polite in a culture might be rude in another one, and vice versa). I think that people going to a foreign country should be ready to face things that might not be accepted in their own country/culture and deal with it. The only clear red line is that you can never force someone from doing something he doesn't want to. There can also have marketing considerations into account. If one wants to target an audience from a certain culture, then adjusting your way of behaving to it might be a good choice (but might deter others...) That said, I'm a bit like Pedro-Juan when looking at the slides. Not shoked, but wondering why this painting ? (is it exhibited in Seoul?), why this group of women ? when seeing them, because not familiar enough with Seoul/South Korea Looking further in the slides I can also see pictures of beverages, some of them I suspect might contain alcohool. I guess that could make some people unconfortable too... In the code of conduct, it is mentionned assume good intentions, so I'd say let's do it for the LOC and let them do their job in peace. Even Regards, Gert-Jan -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] Namens Peter Baumann Verzonden: woensdag 24 juni 2015 13:12 Aan: Jeroen Ticheler; Sanghee Shin CC: OSGeo Discussions; Conference Dev Onderwerp: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case +1 -Peter On 06/24/15 13:01, Jeroen Ticheler wrote: Dear Sanghee, In my opinion these are perfectly fine. But could you please remove a couple of other pictures picturing OSGeo developers (male dominated, generalizing men as nerds)? ;-) Joking apart, I’ve not been in favor of the CoC in the first place. I think it creates more unwanted side effects (like this request to remove art or remove single sex pictures) than that it prevents a person with bad intentions to refrain from them. A plan for the LOC on how to deal with a person acting offensively makes more sense to me. I trust our community members are able to behave as sensitive and sensible people that can auto-regulate issues like this in the same way we collaborate in FOSS projects. The CoC has been established, not sure if it was adopted by the OSGeo board? If it was, we have to deal with it, so this discussion may be useful indeed. Otherwise, I vote for removing the CoC again and work towards a plan for LOC’s to deal with offensive behavior towards others. Cheers, Jeroen On 24 jun. 2015, at 12:22, Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com wrote: Dear All, It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case. I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones. I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view. However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions. I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference. I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases. *Sidenote for defending myself: - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2] - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia. All the best, Sanghee [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct [1]http://2015.foss4g.org [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation --- Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul! http://2015.foss4g.org
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case
Dear Sanghee, In my opinion these are perfectly fine. But could you please remove a couple of other pictures picturing OSGeo developers (male dominated, generalizing men as nerds)? ;-) Joking apart, I’ve not been in favor of the CoC in the first place. I think it creates more unwanted side effects (like this request to remove art or remove single sex pictures) than that it prevents a person with bad intentions to refrain from them. A plan for the LOC on how to deal with a person acting offensively makes more sense to me. I trust our community members are able to behave as sensitive and sensible people that can auto-regulate issues like this in the same way we collaborate in FOSS projects. The CoC has been established, not sure if it was adopted by the OSGeo board? If it was, we have to deal with it, so this discussion may be useful indeed. Otherwise, I vote for removing the CoC again and work towards a plan for LOC’s to deal with offensive behavior towards others. Cheers, Jeroen On 24 jun. 2015, at 12:22, Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com wrote: Dear All, It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case. I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones. I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view. However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions. I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference. I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases. *Sidenote for defending myself: - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2] - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia. All the best, Sanghee [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct [1]http://2015.foss4g.org [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation --- Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul! http://2015.foss4g.org Twitter: @foss4g Facebook: FOSS4G2015 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org ___ Conference_dev mailing list conference_...@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case
+1 -Peter On 06/24/15 13:01, Jeroen Ticheler wrote: Dear Sanghee, In my opinion these are perfectly fine. But could you please remove a couple of other pictures picturing OSGeo developers (male dominated, generalizing men as nerds)? ;-) Joking apart, I’ve not been in favor of the CoC in the first place. I think it creates more unwanted side effects (like this request to remove art or remove single sex pictures) than that it prevents a person with bad intentions to refrain from them. A plan for the LOC on how to deal with a person acting offensively makes more sense to me. I trust our community members are able to behave as sensitive and sensible people that can auto-regulate issues like this in the same way we collaborate in FOSS projects. The CoC has been established, not sure if it was adopted by the OSGeo board? If it was, we have to deal with it, so this discussion may be useful indeed. Otherwise, I vote for removing the CoC again and work towards a plan for LOC’s to deal with offensive behavior towards others. Cheers, Jeroen On 24 jun. 2015, at 12:22, Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com wrote: Dear All, It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case. I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones. I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view. However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions. I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference. I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases. *Sidenote for defending myself: - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2] - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia. All the best, Sanghee [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct [1]http://2015.foss4g.org [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation --- Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul! http://2015.foss4g.org Twitter: @foss4g Facebook: FOSS4G2015 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org ___ Conference_dev mailing list conference_...@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev ___ Conference_dev mailing list conference_...@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev -- Dr. Peter Baumann - Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann mail: p.baum...@jacobs-university.de tel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178 - Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793) www.rasdaman.com, mail: baum...@rasdaman.com tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882 Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec preripiat quisquam non sibi parata. (mail disclaimer, AD 1083) ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case
In my opinion as well there is not a problem, especially since both pictures are used within a certain context. However, I realize I'm looking through a Western-european, liberal cultural perspective. Perhaps someone from for instance the Senegal local OSGeo chapter can comment on this from a different cultural point of view? Regards, Gert-Jan -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] Namens Peter Baumann Verzonden: woensdag 24 juni 2015 13:12 Aan: Jeroen Ticheler; Sanghee Shin CC: OSGeo Discussions; Conference Dev Onderwerp: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case +1 -Peter On 06/24/15 13:01, Jeroen Ticheler wrote: Dear Sanghee, In my opinion these are perfectly fine. But could you please remove a couple of other pictures picturing OSGeo developers (male dominated, generalizing men as nerds)? ;-) Joking apart, I’ve not been in favor of the CoC in the first place. I think it creates more unwanted side effects (like this request to remove art or remove single sex pictures) than that it prevents a person with bad intentions to refrain from them. A plan for the LOC on how to deal with a person acting offensively makes more sense to me. I trust our community members are able to behave as sensitive and sensible people that can auto-regulate issues like this in the same way we collaborate in FOSS projects. The CoC has been established, not sure if it was adopted by the OSGeo board? If it was, we have to deal with it, so this discussion may be useful indeed. Otherwise, I vote for removing the CoC again and work towards a plan for LOC’s to deal with offensive behavior towards others. Cheers, Jeroen On 24 jun. 2015, at 12:22, Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com wrote: Dear All, It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case. I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones. I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view. However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions. I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference. I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases. *Sidenote for defending myself: - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2] - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia. All the best, Sanghee [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct [1]http://2015.foss4g.org [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation --- Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul! http://2015.foss4g.org Twitter: @foss4g Facebook: FOSS4G2015 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org ___ Conference_dev mailing list conference_...@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev ___ Conference_dev mailing list conference_...@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev -- Dr. Peter Baumann - Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann mail: p.baum...@jacobs-university.de tel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178 - Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793) www.rasdaman.com, mail: baum...@rasdaman.com tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882 Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec preripiat quisquam non sibi parata. (mail disclaimer, AD 1083) ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case
I’m not sure who the “we” you are referring to here is, but it certainly does not include me. I am absolutely, 100%, interested in having more women become engaged in FOSS4G. Please don’t make such sweeping generalizations. We are a broad community, a global community, but we are not truly reflective of the whole world. We are largely white men from wealthy countries. I *want* people engaged and passionate about FOSS4G. And that means making sure have a community where *everyone* feels welcome. If our FOSS4G community does not reflect the entire world, then we are failing to engage all people, or worse, chasing some of them away. A CoC is not a sign that we are dying, a CoC is a sign that we acknowledge that we are insufficiently inclusive, and that we as a community will not stand for that. It’s a sign that says “We do not want behaviors that drive people away, behaviors that make our community *smaller*. We are a welcoming community and we want *you* to be part of it.”Is a CoC sufficient to create that community? Absolutely not, but it’s a step forwards. A flag in the ground — a flag that says, “We welcome you!” If we’re afraid of that, then we truly are a dying community, and one that deserves to meet its quiet, irrelevant end. Darrell We are not interested in more women to become engaged in FOSS4G. We are interested in people engaged and passionate about FOSS4G. We don't care about the sex, the colour, the religious or the operating system. Why are we interested specifically in more women? There is a large and growing business behind FOSS4G, which is an huge accomplishment of FOSS4G, that we should care and maintain. It is ok to have some grey people with a strange piece of cloth knotted at the throat attending FOSS4G and moving around. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case
So we have had a difficult question related to the CoC. I'm sure it won't be the first. Based on feedback so far, it appears that rough consensus is that the suggested images don't represent a breach of (western) norms of what is considered acceptable. So here is a proposed action plan: * OSGeo put the question to a vote (probably on the OSGeo-Conf list). * Assuming the images are considered acceptable by the list, we respond with: Thank you for raising the possibility of a CoC breach. We have considered your suggestion, and in this case, we have decided that we do not think that the intent of the CoC has been breached. If you have further information which you wish to raise you are welcome to do so. Thank for you caring and we hope to see you at future OSGeo events. Warm regards chair of committee I suggest that we don't throw out the the CoC just because of an over-protective reference to it. The CoC will be very helpful if/when we need to deal with a serious breach. Hi Kristin, It is great to hear that you are working on an implementation plan. If you would like some help with reviewing or similar, then feel free to contact me. Warm regards, Cameron On 25/06/2015 1:52 am, Kristin Bott wrote: Hi, all -- Including the conference list on this, since I think it's relevant (and I suspect that variations on this conversation are happening in multiple corners). re: implementation plans for the CoC. A group of folks met during State of the Map in NYC earlier this month to talk about what an implementation plan might look like. We are currently drafting language to present to the board to form a CoC committee /as well as /drafting an implementation plan. Jeff, we can most certainly have this done by 1 September 2015. Responding to CoC concerns is not simple -- we're trying to create a structure and a process that will make this as smooth as possible for all involved. If you have any questions / concerns about this, feel free to contact me, off-list or otherwise. cheers - -kristin On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:03 AM, Jeff McKenna jmcke...@gatewaygeomatics.com mailto:jmcke...@gatewaygeomatics.com wrote: I thank Sanghee for bringing this to the community. I want to point out that having just a Code of Conduct, words, on a website is not enough, there needs to be a whole structure of how to handle this. In bold letters I want to state publicly: there is currently no implementation plan for the OSGeo Code of Conduct. This is not acceptable. A few good volunteers have been discussing offline how to setup an implementation plan, as well as possibly even a new OSGeo committee for this, great, but, it is still in discussion stage. Without some sort of plan, community members are already contacting me directly with reports, and I have no formal way to handle these reports. (Sanghee was nice enough to help me solve this together publicly, but, this obviously cannot apply to all reports) I suggest, propose, that if there is no implementation plan for the Code of Conduct by the 1st of September, that the Code of Conduct is removed from all visible OSGeo pages, and is replaced with a simple Diversity statement. I am sorry for being direct here, but, as you can see, this needs to move forward, or not at all. -jeff -- Jeff McKenna President, OSGeo http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Jeff_McKenna On 2015-06-24 7:22 AM, Sanghee Shin wrote: Dear All, It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case. I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones. I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view. However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions. I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference. I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases. *Sidenote for defending myself: - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2] - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case
Hello Darrell, I don’t think the reason why OSGeo has not so many women are caused by lacking of CoC in OSGeo. According to the statistics National Centre for Education Statistics[0], women have outnumbered men in American colleges for last 35 years. However women just selected another jobs rather than programming or geospatial. It’s not our fault. I couldn’t recall any decisive moment that lacking of CoC in OSGeo excluded participation of female except recent comments from Kate. It’s very similar in Korea as well. More than 45% of college students are female. However they *DO* select another jobs instead of selecting programming or geospatial. That’s why only around 10% are female in Korean Chapter. It’s not because lacking of CoC. If we want to be a broad community, a global community, also truly reflective of the whole world, we’d better discuss how to effectively engage other members from 3rd countries or developing countries. Do you know people in Asia outnumber the other part of the world? Frankly to say I haven’t seen any much effort from OSGeo to try to engage members from developing countries. Ah.. we have travel grants once a year. You said, If our FOSS4G community does not reflect the entire world, then we are failing to engage all people, or worse, chasing some of them away.” Great! And then what is the real relation between your phrase and CoC. Do you really believe that imposing CoC automatically make OSGeo more welcomed organisation to 3rd countries or developing countries members? I feel that CoC is for white women in advanced countries. I know I might be wrong. However whenever we talk about CoC, it’s all about sexy image or something like that. It’s not about how to engage 2/3 of world population. All the best, Sanghee [0]http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_303.10.asp --- Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul! http://2015.foss4g.org Twitter: @foss4g Facebook: FOSS4G2015 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org 2015. 6. 24., 오후 10:42, Darrell Fuhriman darr...@garnix.org 작성: I’m not sure who the “we” you are referring to here is, but it certainly does not include me. I am absolutely, 100%, interested in having more women become engaged in FOSS4G. Please don’t make such sweeping generalizations. We are a broad community, a global community, but we are not truly reflective of the whole world. We are largely white men from wealthy countries. I *want* people engaged and passionate about FOSS4G. And that means making sure have a community where *everyone* feels welcome. If our FOSS4G community does not reflect the entire world, then we are failing to engage all people, or worse, chasing some of them away. A CoC is not a sign that we are dying, a CoC is a sign that we acknowledge that we are insufficiently inclusive, and that we as a community will not stand for that. It’s a sign that says “We do not want behaviors that drive people away, behaviors that make our community *smaller*. We are a welcoming community and we want *you* to be part of it.”Is a CoC sufficient to create that community? Absolutely not, but it’s a step forwards. A flag in the ground — a flag that says, “We welcome you!” If we’re afraid of that, then we truly are a dying community, and one that deserves to meet its quiet, irrelevant end. Darrell We are not interested in more women to become engaged in FOSS4G. We are interested in people engaged and passionate about FOSS4G. We don't care about the sex, the colour, the religious or the operating system. Why are we interested specifically in more women? There is a large and growing business behind FOSS4G, which is an huge accomplishment of FOSS4G, that we should care and maintain. It is ok to have some grey people with a strange piece of cloth knotted at the throat attending FOSS4G and moving around. ___ Conference_dev mailing list conference_...@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case
I don’t think the reason why OSGeo has not so many women are caused by lacking of CoC in OSGeo. According to the statistics National Centre for Education Statistics[0], women have outnumbered men in American colleges for last 35 years. Great. Why are so few of them in positions of power? Why aren’t a majority of our CEOs women? Why aren’t a majority of our biologists women? Why aren’t a majority of our legislators women? We can come up with all sorts of excuses to dance around the problem, because we’d rather go through mental contortions than admit the obvious: sexism in ubiquitous . (For a related discussion, I recommend the book “Racism without Racists” which thoroughly examines how a lot of people who don’t think of themselves as racist actually take part in behaviors and support structures that are in fact, racist.) However women just selected another jobs rather than programming or geospatial. It’s not our fault. I couldn’t recall any decisive moment that lacking of CoC in OSGeo excluded participation of female except recent comments from Kate. This is false. Simply false. If people are abused out of a line of work until they quit, that’s not “women choosing other jobs” anymore than me walking into your house, punching you in the face until you leave then claiming “He abandoned it” means it’s not my fault. It *is* our fault. It’s systemic and it’s pernicious. And honestly, it doesn’t take much looking to find stories of women who have left technical fields because they’re tired of the abuse. But the reality is most of them quietly leave, so when people say, “I can’t recall a time that happened…” it’s not because it doesn’t happen, it’s because those people aren’t paying attention. It’s very similar in Korea as well. More than 45% of college students are female. However they *DO* select another jobs instead of selecting programming or geospatial. That’s why only around 10% are female in Korean Chapter. It’s not because lacking of CoC. Are you sure? I mean this seriously. Do you have evidence for that, or are you just assuming? I’m not fetishizing the CoC itself, obviously having a CoC doesn’t magically make an open community, but it’s a symbol that the community does take inclusivity seriously. If we want to be a broad community, a global community, also truly reflective of the whole world, we’d better discuss how to effectively engage other members from 3rd countries or developing countries. Do you know people in Asia outnumber the other part of the world? Frankly to say I haven’t seen any much effort from OSGeo to try to engage members from developing countries. Ah.. we have travel grants once a year. You will not get an argument for me. I’ve been arguing for a long time that there needs to be concerted and honest outreach to the rest of the world. So far the OSGeo model has been “build it and they they will come” (to use a Hollywood reference). This is, of course, hogwash. I’ve had a number of conversations about how OSGeo should be sponsoring workshops around world. Spending the money produced by FOSS4G to put on “FOSS4G East Africa” even if it loses money. I want there to be FOSS4G Ouagadougou, FOSS4G Kuala Lampur, FOSS4G Vietnam, FOSS4G Uruguay. That’s the world I want. You said, If our FOSS4G community does not reflect the entire world, then we are failing to engage all people, or worse, chasing some of them away.” Great! And then what is the real relation between your phrase and CoC. Do you really believe that imposing CoC automatically make OSGeo more welcomed organisation to 3rd countries or developing countries members? No, of course not. CoC’s aren’t magic, but they’re a statement of belief in higher ideal. I feel that CoC is for white women in advanced countries. I know I might be wrong. However whenever we talk about CoC, it’s all about sexy image or something like that. It’s not about how to engage 2/3 of world population. Well, with the exception of the “white” part, I actually mostly agree with this (ignoring the status of minorities, which are common in the advanced world). However, I would also point out that women, globally, are 51% of the population. Why *not* make them feel safer? But if the argument is essentially, “we’re not making better for everyone, then what’s the point of doing it for some” then I reject that. Because again, this is merely a step, and every journey requires many steps. So my question to you is this: if a CoC is insufficient for building a globally diverse community (which I agree it is), in what way is it actively harmful to that cause? Would *not* having a CoC further the goals of creating a better community? If so, how? Darrell ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case
To get the presentation in balance again, I suggest: 1) add description to the slide with Girls' Generation image (neither I do not know this band) 2) replace back of a woman with back of a man, so that the message remains the same. I volunteer with couple of images of mine, you can grab it from facebook J P.S. ;-) st 24. 6. 2015 v 17:52 odesílatel Kristin Bott bo...@reed.edu napsal: Hi, all -- Including the conference list on this, since I think it's relevant (and I suspect that variations on this conversation are happening in multiple corners). re: implementation plans for the CoC. A group of folks met during State of the Map in NYC earlier this month to talk about what an implementation plan might look like. We are currently drafting language to present to the board to form a CoC committee *as well as *drafting an implementation plan. Jeff, we can most certainly have this done by 1 September 2015. Responding to CoC concerns is not simple -- we're trying to create a structure and a process that will make this as smooth as possible for all involved. If you have any questions / concerns about this, feel free to contact me, off-list or otherwise. cheers - -kristin On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:03 AM, Jeff McKenna jmcke...@gatewaygeomatics.com wrote: I thank Sanghee for bringing this to the community. I want to point out that having just a Code of Conduct, words, on a website is not enough, there needs to be a whole structure of how to handle this. In bold letters I want to state publicly: there is currently no implementation plan for the OSGeo Code of Conduct. This is not acceptable. A few good volunteers have been discussing offline how to setup an implementation plan, as well as possibly even a new OSGeo committee for this, great, but, it is still in discussion stage. Without some sort of plan, community members are already contacting me directly with reports, and I have no formal way to handle these reports. (Sanghee was nice enough to help me solve this together publicly, but, this obviously cannot apply to all reports) I suggest, propose, that if there is no implementation plan for the Code of Conduct by the 1st of September, that the Code of Conduct is removed from all visible OSGeo pages, and is replaced with a simple Diversity statement. I am sorry for being direct here, but, as you can see, this needs to move forward, or not at all. -jeff -- Jeff McKenna President, OSGeo http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Jeff_McKenna On 2015-06-24 7:22 AM, Sanghee Shin wrote: Dear All, It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case. I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones. I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view. However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions. I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference. I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases. *Sidenote for defending myself: - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2] - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia. All the best, Sanghee [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct [1]http://2015.foss4g.org [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation --- Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul! http://2015.foss4g.org Twitter: @foss4g Facebook: FOSS4G2015 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Conference_dev mailing list conference_...@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
