Re: [slim] Voice command
Sync all players is a wonderful example for something that doesn't work. Plenty of unanswered questions in that command --- learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App, at penguinlovesmusic.com *New: iPeng 8, the Universal App for iOS 7 and iOS 8* pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104110 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] How Replay Gain Works
pippin wrote: Sorry, I still don't buy that. Even _if_ there were some DACs which had such a crappy design that their own interpolation filter created values that they would then clip, dynamics compression would actually make things better, not worse! What's the worst case for your interpolation filter? It's not _several_ -samples, it's probably zeroes followed by a single -value or maybe two, followed by more zeroes. Get a digital spectrum analyzer and check it. Lots of samples are a very simple and boring case and will always interpolate to more values with no clipping. DACs are signal processing devices not speakers with mechanical parts and inertial. All you are discussing here makes a lot of sense for a speaker and at high volume a speaker might have more problems with compressed dynamics ranges, at least if it's got a badly designed filter (and you can never have perfect analog filters). But people applying analogies from mechanical issues to electronic signal processing is a very common misconception in audiophile circles, just ignore the nonsense. It's the same thing as assuming vibrations from your speakers or whatever would have any impact on your signal processing just because they do for a vinyl record player because that one has a mechanical reading arm. But they don't, unless you shake your device to pieces or vibrations are so hard that they change the properties of open inductors they will not and if the latter happens it's - again - just a crap design and will be much more affected by temperature changes or humidity than vibrations. You know: you read so much nonsense on this internet these days OK, we had that, but Why would they do that and how? You mean they would drop the top bit or something? Or do you say that _cheap_ devices are adding complicated digital signal processing just to add even more dynamics compression? In any case, as said before: if they did anything like that your recording is destroyed, get a better rip. One of the leading Engeneers in Digital Audio(Peter Lyngdorf, Founder og Lyngdorf Audio and Tact) says something else about DAC's and clipping. There is a video on youtube where loudness war is discussed(with Mark Knopfler). I must say I agree more with him Unforunally it is in Danish so I don't think you will understand it, so no reason for link to the video. But what you call crappy desing is the real World handling crappy input. Callesoroe Living room: Transporter, Tact RCS 2.2X digital preamp, Martin Logan Vista speakers, AMPS(Icepower): Acoustic Reality Ear Enigma PLUS(PANELS), Acoustic Reality Ear TWO MKII(Bas) Kitchen: Transporter, Prodipe Pro 5 active bi-amp speakers. Bedroom: Receiver+UE boombox, Kids: Receiver+Active speakers, WIMP-HIFI flac streaming. http://www.last.fm/user/callesoroe callesoroe's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=22693 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104121 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] a 3D printable enclosure for raspi A+ / JiveLite / piCorePlayer ?
d6jg wrote: I am interested in a picoreplayer / jive lite / simple remote / touch screen device like a Touch but to really be of interest the casing has to accommodate a digi+ or a Dac+. Personally I'd also like to see the SD card fully enclosed instead of half out of the case. The touch screen can be separate from the pi case but needs a nice easel type mount like a joggler. Yes, I was thinking about the casing being capable of hosting a dac+ or digi+ board optionally and basically you choose what you want to build. There is a limit to the number of boards :-), but hopefully one for the display, the pi itself and an optional dac+/digi+ could fit decently. On the SD card, I will have to stick to the microSD of the pi that fits fully inside LMS 7.7.2 - 5 radio, 3 Boom, 4 Duet, 1 Touch, 1 SB2. Sonos 2xPLAY:1, PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, JBL OnBeat, XBMC, Foobar2000, XBoxOne (sort of) philippe_44's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17261 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104099 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] How Replay Gain Works
Umm... wait, but that would be something else. Of course a DAC doesn't like clipped signals because the result will be nothing that makes sense so all of it's filters might make garbage of the remaining signals, too (not just the clipped frequencies). But again if your digital signal is clipped you can not unclip it Not with replay gain, not with anything else. --- learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App, at penguinlovesmusic.com *New: iPeng 8, the Universal App for iOS 7 and iOS 8* pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104121 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] How Replay Gain Works
callesoroe wrote: One of the leading Engeneers in Digital Audio(Peter Lyngdorf, Founder og Lyngdorf Audio and Tact) says something else about DAC's and clipping. There is a video on youtube where loudness war is discussed(with Mark Knopfler). I must say I agree more with him Unforunally it is in Danish so I don't think you will understand it, so no reason for link to the video. 'This one' (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of2JvNXHXOI)? It is 34 minutes long, and seems to be a general rant against loudness wars. Can you explain how it is relevant to replay gain? The only way replay gain is relevant to the loudness wars is that as the broadcast and streaming companies, and companies like apple, are starting to apply the ITU gain adjustment standards, the incentive to overly compress music material to make it carry over a broadcast goes away - but unfortunately producers will still want the music to sound like on the radio. To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104121 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] How Replay Gain Works
Julf wrote: 'This one' (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of2JvNXHXOI)? It is 34 minutes long, and seems to be a general rant against loudness wars. Can you explain how it is relevant to replay gain? The only way replay gain is relevant to the loudness wars is that as the broadcast and streaming companies, and companies like apple, are starting to apply the ITU gain adjustment standards, the incentive to overly compress music material to make it carry over a broadcast goes away - but unfortunately producers will still want the music to sound like on the radio. Yes it is that video. And he also says that almost all DAC's don't like clipped signals. He also plays an example on the computer. Callesoroe Living room: Transporter, Tact RCS 2.2X digital preamp, Martin Logan Vista speakers, AMPS(Icepower): Acoustic Reality Ear Enigma PLUS(PANELS), Acoustic Reality Ear TWO MKII(Bas) Kitchen: Transporter, Prodipe Pro 5 active bi-amp speakers. Bedroom: Receiver+UE boombox, Kids: Receiver+Active speakers, WIMP-HIFI flac streaming. http://www.last.fm/user/callesoroe callesoroe's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=22693 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104121 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] How Replay Gain Works
pippin wrote: Umm... wait, but that would be something else. Of course a DAC doesn't like clipped signals because the result will be nothing that makes sense so all of it's filters might make garbage of the remaining signals, too (not just the clipped frequencies). But again if your digital signal is clipped you can not unclip it Not with replay gain, not with anything else. No you cant unclip anything , but the point is that some digital filters and oversamplers makes things worse if the clipping is representerade as consequtive 0dB samples intersample overs they internally try to calculate levers above 0dB and some react badly and produces even more distorsion . This effect is real as these kind of signal is out of spec and many DAC and filter chip designers did not consider them to ever be present on a CD . Of course you can have blocks of clipped signal by good old fashioned distortion in the music , but to some filters this is not the same as also clip the digital medium by trying to exceed the 16 or 24 bit you have to represent the signal . But as said just lover the volume -3 to -6 dB. But as Julf said you can get this phenomen by to much level by any signal not just loudness war music . But it is also vey common practice to do that on such music . But I would like to see this measured in present day products , but it is telling that benchmark did not consider this until recently ? And they are considered one of the best DAC designers that just not buy a set chips and slap together a nice looking products like most hig end brands . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104121 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] How Replay Gain Works
callesoroe wrote: Yes it is that video. And he also says that almost all DAC's don't like clipped signals. He also plays an example on the computer. And how is that relevant to replay gain? If your original music is clipped (by the producer/recording engineer), there is no way to unclip it. It will stay clipped, even if you allow replay gain to change the volume. Let me repeat: The only way replay gain is relevant to the loudness wars is that as the broadcast and streaming companies, and companies like apple, are starting to apply the ITU gain adjustment standards, the incentive to overly compress music material to make it carry over a broadcast goes away - but unfortunately producers will still want the music to sound like on the radio. So, again, do you agree with the statement that all replay gain does is adjust the gain of the track - just like turning down (or, very rarely, up) the volume control? If not, why not? To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104121 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] How Replay Gain Works
Julf wrote: There are no totally unfiltered NOS DACs - the filtering just happens somewhere further down the chain, and if the components down he chain can't handle the signal amplitude, you still get clipping. yes but that be good clipping from tubes or somesuch :)) yes i do understand that it is about the level . But a way to actually get a bunch of 0dB samples together is the way we master these days almost everything is very close to max . it's not like in old recording thats it's once every 2 minutes or less when the drummer hit's a snare unusually hard (for example ) but rather all the time . So when the producer maxes the volume suddenly it's more or less constant clipping . yes phillips was rigth spare a couple of dB when producing CD's :) Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104121 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] How Replay Gain Works
Mnyb wrote: yes but that be good clipping from tubes or somesuch :)) Of course! :) yes i do understand that it is about the level. Only reason I keep going on about it is that it seems callesoroe still doesn't understand that part. But a way to actually get a bunch of 0dB samples together is the way we master these days almost everything is very close to max . it's not like in old recording thats it's once every 2 minutes or less when the drummer hit's a snare unusually hard (for example ) but rather all the time . So when the producer maxes the volume suddenly it's more or less constant clipping . Absolutely - all I was pointing out that it is a result of pure incompetence. It is really simple to get lots of 0dB samples together - just record a 1 kHz sine wave at +20 dB - but it is equally easy to avoid, by always leaving 6 dB or so of headroom... yes phillips was rigth spare a couple of dB when producing CD's :) They actually started out with that as a hard requirement - if you violated it, you couldn't use the compact disc logo. Too bad they rescinded that almost immediately :( To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104121 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] How Replay Gain Works
cliveb wrote: I was the person who reported that bug, and it was fixed years ago in SqueezeCentre (or possibly SlimServer), long before it was renamed LMS. (Briefly: ReplayGain tags include a PEAK value that the playback software should take into account when processing positive GAIN tags, such that the gain is backed off if it would introduce clipping. SlimServer was failing to take this into account). Why is it called Replay Gain anyway when invariably its a negative. It should be Replay Loss :) Sensibly LMS and other control apps translate the tag to Volume Adjustment *Vortexbox LMS 7.8 music on QNAP TS419p via NFS* - iThingys/iPeng/Tablets *Living Room* - SB3 - Onkyo TS606 connected Digitally - Celestion Ditton F20s - and connected Analogue for Zone 2 - Sony TA FE 320 - Sennheiser RS 130 *Office* - SB3 - Sony TA FE320 - Wharfedale Modus Cubes *Dining Room* - SB Boom *Kitchen* - UE Radio (upgraded to SB Radio) *Bedroom (Bedside)* - SB Touch - Topping TP21 - AKG Headphones *Bedroom (TV)* - Amazon Fire TV (SB Player) - Topping TP20 - Wharfedale Modus Cubes d6jg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=44051 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104121 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] How Replay Gain Works
Mnyb wrote: I think it's when you have several consecutive samples of 0dB IE like say 10 full 16bit word lined up together . One 0dB peak is not a problem . Sorry, I still don't buy that. Even _if_ there were some DACs which had such a crappy design that their own interpolation filter created values that they would then clip, dynamics compression would actually make things better, not worse! What's the worst case for your interpolation filter? It's not _several_ -samples, it's probably zeroes followed by a single -value or maybe two, followed by more zeroes. Get a digital spectrum analyzer and check it. Lots of samples are a very simple and boring case and will always interpolate to more values with no clipping. DACs are signal processing devices not speakers with mechanical parts and inertial. All you are discussing here makes a lot of sense for a speaker and at high volume a speaker might have more problems with compressed dynamics ranges, at least if it's got a badly designed filter (and you can never have perfect analog filters). But people applying analogies from mechanical issues to electronic signal processing is a very common misconception in audiophile circles, just ignore the nonsense. It's the same thing as assuming vibrations from your speakers or whatever would have any impact on your signal processing just because they do for a vinyl record player because that one has a mechanical reading arm. But they don't, unless you shake your device to pieces or vibrations are so hard that they change the properties of open inductors they will not and if the latter happens it's - again - just a crap design and will be much more affected by temperature changes or humidity than vibrations. You know: you read so much nonsense on this internet these days Yes some CD are deliberately digitally clipped too on top of the loudness war compression . There are some treads on hydrogen audio about this and some old research white paper I can't seem to find where this is shown to happen in some consumer CD players . OK, we had that, but Why would they do that and how? You mean they would drop the top bit or something? Or do you say that _cheap_ devices are adding complicated digital signal processing just to add even more dynamics compression? In any case, as said before: if they did anything like that your recording is destroyed, get a better rip. --- learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App, at penguinlovesmusic.com *New: iPeng 8, the Universal App for iOS 7 and iOS 8* pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104121 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] How Replay Gain Works
Mnyb wrote: RG clipping by the rare album that actually gives positive gain ? Is that not fixed in LMS there was a bug report about that ? I was the person who reported that bug, and it was fixed years ago in SqueezeCentre (or possibly SlimServer), long before it was renamed LMS. (Briefly: ReplayGain tags include a PEAK value that the playback software should take into account when processing positive GAIN tags, such that the gain is backed off if it would introduce clipping. SlimServer was failing to take this into account). Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104121 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] PicorePlayer + internet browser
Thanks a lot! andrea.toro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64655 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104074 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] PicorePlayer + internet browser
Sorry! I'm in Windows... Installation Instructions on piCorePlayer 1.19+ Copy these two files to /mnt/mmcblk0p2/tce/optional on the piCorePlayer sd card. There's enough free space on the default image to add the jivelite files. If you've installed other packages you might need to increase the size of the ext4 partition mmcblk0p2. https://github.com/ralph-irving/tcz-jivelite/raw/master/jivelite.tcz https://github.com/ralph-irving/tcz-jivelite/raw/master/jivelite.tcz.md5.txt thanks Phil (stroke victim) You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104074 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Voice command
I started a thread a couple years ago and got yelled at by naysayers ;-) http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?79734-Voice-Command-for-Squeezebox-Still-Not-Much-Interesthighlight=voice The key that I think is important is to make it non-comprehensive. Make it SIMPLE: It doesn't even have to be too complicated - I'm looking for commands like: Playlist Shane Favorites Random, Skip Track, Mute All, Sync All Players, Play Artist Pink Floyd, Play Album Dark Side of the Moon, etc. Sure there will be lots of easy ways to trip it up, but being able to say something like play favorite spa music would even be helpful... spedinfargo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15712 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104110 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] How Replay Gain Works
callesoroe wrote: One of the leading Engeneers in Digital Audio(Peter Lyngdorf, Founder og Lyngdorf Audio and Tact) says something else about DAC's and clipping. There is a video on youtube where loudness war is discussed(with Mark Knopfler). I must say I agree more with him Unforunally it is in Danish so I don't think you will understand it, so no reason for link to the video. But what you call crappy desing is the real World handling crappy input. Too bad you didn't post a link - I can probably understand enough Danish. So, instead, how about you, in your own words, explaining what part of what we have been saying you don't agree with, and why? And do you agree with the statement that all replay gain does is adjust the gain of the track - just like turning down (or, very rarely, up) the volume control? To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104121 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
