[discuss] How to make OO the standard
This message is meant to be forwarded to Oracle management. I'm sure by now we've all heard about MS taking a shot at OO. Criticism is good, it makes us better. The surefire way to win is to simply address the problem issues and make them go away. OpenOffice could be the world standard very quickly if it solved what users say is the number one barrier to widespread adoption. Slides 26 and 30 of this presentation show that the feature OO users *themselves* most need is complete compatibility with MS formats: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/w/images/1/11/Renaissance-status-2009-01-30_wiki.odp Writer and Calc have better compatibility than ever before, however they have not yet reached the tipping point, and Impress has many remaining issues. Ignore this compatibility problem, and remain a niche player. Solve it, and very quickly win worldwide adoption. That simple. Additional excellent real world feedback, well worth reading: http://www.fark.com/cgi/comments.pl?IDLink=5691592 Bill Stewart Eseri CEO http://Eseri.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: discuss-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [discuss] How to make OO the standard
On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 08:53:13 AM -0400, Wm Stewart (wstew...@livinginternet.com) wrote: OpenOffice could be the world standard very quickly if it solved what users say is the number one barrier to widespread adoption. Slides 26 and 30 of this presentation show that the feature OO users *themselves* most need is complete compatibility with MS formats: this is impossible BY DEFINITION. And it has been already explained many many times. You CANNOT achieve and maintain 100% compatibility with a format that YOUR competitor can change at whim every time you're over 95% compatibility. Period. The first feature that the OO users asking 100% compatibility with MS formats must achieve IN THEMSELVES is understanding and acceptance of this concept. The only way to achieve and maintain sufficient compatibility is to get rid of the very concept that MS formats must continue to be tolerated for NEW documents: demand law and regulations that mandate OpenDocument as the only acceptable interchange and long storage format of all public documents and the problem will solve itself. If the people you must work with are addicted to some drug, the only effective way to keep working with them in the long term is not to take the same drug while asking for some antidote. It is to force/help the drug addicts to realize their conditions and get out of it for good. See here why I am speaking of drug addiction: http://stop.zona-m.net/node/198 HTH, Marco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: discuss-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [discuss] How to make OO the standard
On 10/16/2010 9:36 AM, M. Fioretti wrote: On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 08:53:13 AM -0400, Wm Stewart (wstew...@livinginternet.com) wrote: OpenOffice could be the world standard very quickly if it solved what users say is the number one barrier to widespread adoption. Slides 26 and 30 of this presentation show that the feature OO users *themselves* most need is complete compatibility with MS formats: this is impossible BY DEFINITION. And it has been already explained many many times. You CANNOT achieve and maintain 100% compatibility with a format that YOUR competitor can change at whim every time you're over 95% compatibility. Period. Marco, stand back and look at the big picture. Here is the decision that must be made: 1. Do we wish to achieve compatibility with the existing MS formats, through docx, which is *absolutely possible* as the greatly increasing compatibility over the past few years indicates - and then win? 2. Or do you wish to continue to ask the world to throw out all of their existing billions of documents and software, which is not possible as the past few years shows - and continue to lose? Compatibility is not easy. However as a programmer I know it is possible, even without a single page of documentation on the existing MS formats: cleanroom it and solve the problems one by one. The proof is that OO has gone from 80% compatibility to 98% in the last five years. However, my point, the point of users, and the point of the regular folks on the Fark thread I referenced, is that it is the last 2% that is the key to widespread adoption. *Future MS document formats are not the issue*. Compatibility is what is required to win. If we are not willing to do the work to be completely compatible, we must be willing to lose, and have no right to complain that the world will not change for us. I for one believe the advantages of open source software are so overwhelming I am willing to push to win. OO is so close. Let's go that last 2%. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: discuss-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [discuss] How to make OO the standard
On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 10:02:18 AM -0400, Wm Stewart (wstew...@livinginternet.com) wrote: On 10/16/2010 9:36 AM, M. Fioretti wrote: On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 08:53:13 AM -0400, Wm Stewart (wstew...@livinginternet.com) wrote: OpenOffice could be the world standard very quickly if it solved what users say is the number one barrier to widespread adoption. Slides 26 and 30 of this presentation show that the feature OO users *themselves* most need is complete compatibility with MS formats: this is impossible BY DEFINITION. And it has been already explained many many times. You CANNOT achieve and maintain 100% compatibility with a format that YOUR competitor can change at whim every time you're over 95% compatibility. Period. Marco, stand back and look at the big picture. Bill, please stand back and look again at what I actually wrote, pasted here for convenience: The only way to achieve and maintain sufficient compatibility is to get rid of the very concept that MS formats must continue to be tolerated for NEW documents: demand law and regulations that mandate OpenDocument as the only acceptable interchange and long storage format of all public documents and the problem will solve itself I said NEW documents. Not already existing ones. And I meant NEW, and new only, even in the last line above, which should read: format of all new public documents and the problem will solve itself Sorry if I forgot to repeat new in that line, however this is what my proposal is and remains. Using OOXML (which is NOT today's docx!) as the preferred STORAGE format to preserve already existing files is one thing. I have already said several times that, limited to that usage, OOXML is the least evil. Tolerating OOXML or .docx for interchange and storage, that is archival, of NEW files is an entirely different issue. That would be really stupid. Apart from, or in addition to this: 100% total compatibility as in 100% visual fidelity etc... on **editable formats** for every possible document is achievable only if everybody uses the same version of the same program with the same fonts, macros, multimedia plugins and so on. For the record, at the last OOoCon there was a Microsoft engineer that explained this very well. His slideshow is on the OOocon website: http://www.ooocon.org/index.php/ooocon/2010/paper/view/175 Here is the decision that must be made: 1. Do we wish to achieve compatibility with the existing MS formats, through docx No. More exactly, I say: if/when that happens, great. But it is much, much more important to improve interoperability with other office suites (not just MS office) on OpenDocument files. 2. Or do you wish to continue to ask the world to throw out all of their existing billions of documents and software, which is not possible as the past few years shows - and continue to lose? The best way to lose is to keep running after a target that changes just to keep you running. Fighting forever respecting unfair rules (=the file formats) against somebody who decides those rules alone makes much less sense than demanding a new game with new rules. If you didn't understand this from my first message, I don't know how to explain it simpler, so OK but we can and should stop here. This said, please remember again that I spoke of new files. In other words, change laws and regulations in governments so that: - from now on, whenever a government archives a NEW public document or anybody sends to any government office a NEW document, that document can only be in the OpenDocument format. Not OOXML, not .docx. How the author complies with this requirement is nobody's business, its his responsibility. Ditto for the documents they keep for their internal use only. the point of users, and the point of the regular folks on the Fark thread I referenced, is that it is the last 2% that is the key to widespread adoption. My point remains that such users and regular folks simply don't get some basic truths and are fighting a battle that a) can't be won by definition, b) isn't even really worth fighting. See above and the link I provided in my earlier message. Do you care more about the software you use, or about the documents you create and manage with it? Microsoft never fought Linux and OpenOffice with the same intensity which with they fought OpenDocument. If this isn't enough to prove to you where their real weakness (that is the best way to accomplish your goal, making OO the standard), OK. Now, the real reason why we're discussing now is that we have two different objectives. You want OOo to be the standard. I want OpenDocument to be the standard, because file formats are much more important than software programs and we use software because we need documents, not the other way around. But we do have different objectives, maybe it's better to just acknowledge that, isn't it? Marco - To
Re: [discuss] How to make OO the standard
On 10/16/2010 10:37 AM, M. Fioretti wrote: Now, the real reason why we're discussing now is that we have two different objectives. You want OOo to be the standard. I want OpenDocument to be the standard, because file formats are much more important than software programs and we use software because we need documents, not the other way around. But we do have different objectives, maybe it's better to just acknowledge that, isn't it? Hi Marco, I absolutely agree that ODF should be the world-wide standard. But what is the best way to get there? The evidence so far shows it won't happen as long as MS Office is the world-wide standard, ODF plugin or not. However, it would happen much more quickly if OO was the world-wide standard. This is my point. Switch the software and the format will follow. So, first things first. The evidence, including the two links I included in my original post with real user input, strongly shows that the simple way to make OO the world wide standard is to provide it with complete compatibility with existing MS formats, as the first step. Fundamentally I believe embrace and replace is a much more clever and successful strategy than an all or nothing fight, which so far we (OO) are losing - a niche product not widely used in business or government because it is not completely compatible with the facts on the ground - the vast majority of existing documents. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: discuss-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [discuss] How to make OO the standard
On Sat Oct 16 2010 08:48:18 GMT-0700 (PDT) Wm Stewart wrote: Hi Marco, I absolutely agree that ODF should be the world-wide standard. But what is the best way to get there? The evidence so far shows it won't happen as long as MS Office is the world-wide standard, ODF plugin or not. However, it would happen much more quickly if OO was the world-wide standard. This is my point. Switch the software and the format will follow. So, first things first. The evidence, including the two links I included in my original post with real user input, strongly shows that the simple way to make OO the world wide standard is to provide it with complete compatibility with existing MS formats, as the first step. Fundamentally I believe embrace and replace is a much more clever and successful strategy than an all or nothing fight, which so far we (OO) are losing - a niche product not widely used in business or government because it is not completely compatible with the facts on the ground - the vast majority of existing documents. How do you propose to make OOo 100% compatible with MSO? The structure of the files is closed so no one but MS has them. Reverse engineering can only do so much. _IF_ MS used a published format that everyone could access then it would be easy to do, but they don't. Andy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: discuss-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [discuss] How to make OO the standard
On 10/16/2010 12:07 PM, RA Brown wrote: How do you propose to make OOo 100% compatible with MSO? The structure of the files is closed so no one but MS has them. Reverse engineering can only do so much. _IF_ MS used a published format that everyone could access then it would be easy to do, but they don't. Andy Hi Andy, the main evidence that it can be done is in the history of what has been done: OO is so much more compatible than it was. To go the rest of the way is a matter of solving the issues one by one. For example, most of the remaining issues with Writer are alignment, headers, footers, tables, images, that are misaligned from Word to Writer and vice versa. I'm not saying it is easy, a few minutes work, to fix these issues. I am saying that: a. It can be done by taking input documents with problems and solving them one by one, as the problems already solved have been. b. Solving compatibility is under the community's control and doable, while the hurdle to get the world to change to Microsoft / ODF first is much higher and has not yet worked. c. If we want to win the battle, the two links submitted with my original post show that solving the remaining compatibility issues is necessary. Provide complete compatibility and the world will convert in a relatively short period of time, because of the usual open source advantages - low cost, and lower risk because the software is a shared global resource and not owned by a single company. We've been at this discussion for years now. I believe evidence trumps opinion. We have the same goal, but the evidence shows that putting the format before the software is not what users, business, or government want. And it has not worked. If we embrace and replace, OO will win quickly. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: discuss-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [discuss] How to make OO the standard
On Sat Oct 16 2010 10:22:44 GMT-0700 (PDT) Wm Stewart wrote: On 10/16/2010 12:07 PM, RA Brown wrote: How do you propose to make OOo 100% compatible with MSO? The structure of the files is closed so no one but MS has them. Reverse engineering can only do so much. _IF_ MS used a published format that everyone could access then it would be easy to do, but they don't. Andy Hi Andy, the main evidence that it can be done is in the history of what has been done: OO is so much more compatible than it was. To go the rest of the way is a matter of solving the issues one by one. For example, most of the remaining issues with Writer are alignment, headers, footers, tables, images, that are misaligned from Word to Writer and vice versa. I'm not saying it is easy, a few minutes work, to fix these issues. I am saying that: a. It can be done by taking input documents with problems and solving them one by one, as the problems already solved have been. b. Solving compatibility is under the community's control and doable, while the hurdle to get the world to change to Microsoft / ODF first is much higher and has not yet worked. c. If we want to win the battle, the two links submitted with my original post show that solving the remaining compatibility issues is necessary. Provide complete compatibility and the world will convert in a relatively short period of time, because of the usual open source advantages - low cost, and lower risk because the software is a shared global resource and not owned by a single company. We've been at this discussion for years now. I believe evidence trumps opinion. We have the same goal, but the evidence shows that putting the format before the software is not what users, business, or government want. And it has not worked. If we embrace and replace, OO will win quickly. Ok. So the developers spend what, several hundred hours fixing the compatibility issues. Next release MS changes the format, as they just did with making even older versions of their on software in compatible and older documents useless. The internet would be totally worthless if MS had their way. Open standards are the only way to level the playing field. As long as MS uses closed standards it can not be done. Look how MS has tried to change the standards with their own, claiming to embrace open standards. OOXML is just one example. Andy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: discuss-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [discuss] How to make OO the standard
On 10/16/2010 2:59 PM, RA Brown wrote: Ok. So the developers spend what, several hundred hours fixing the compatibility issues. Next release MS changes the format, as they just did with making even older versions of their on software in compatible and older documents useless. Hi Andy, my response to Marco at 10:02AM, attached, responds to this issue. We can win, easily. The users themselves repeatedly tell us how, see the info in the links of my first post today. ---BeginMessage--- On 10/16/2010 9:36 AM, M. Fioretti wrote: On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 08:53:13 AM -0400, Wm Stewart (wstew...@livinginternet.com) wrote: OpenOffice could be the world standard very quickly if it solved what users say is the number one barrier to widespread adoption. Slides 26 and 30 of this presentation show that the feature OO users *themselves* most need is complete compatibility with MS formats: this is impossible BY DEFINITION. And it has been already explained many many times. You CANNOT achieve and maintain 100% compatibility with a format that YOUR competitor can change at whim every time you're over 95% compatibility. Period. Marco, stand back and look at the big picture. Here is the decision that must be made: 1. Do we wish to achieve compatibility with the existing MS formats, through docx, which is *absolutely possible* as the greatly increasing compatibility over the past few years indicates - and then win? 2. Or do you wish to continue to ask the world to throw out all of their existing billions of documents and software, which is not possible as the past few years shows - and continue to lose? Compatibility is not easy. However as a programmer I know it is possible, even without a single page of documentation on the existing MS formats: cleanroom it and solve the problems one by one. The proof is that OO has gone from 80% compatibility to 98% in the last five years. However, my point, the point of users, and the point of the regular folks on the Fark thread I referenced, is that it is the last 2% that is the key to widespread adoption. *Future MS document formats are not the issue*. Compatibility is what is required to win. If we are not willing to do the work to be completely compatible, we must be willing to lose, and have no right to complain that the world will not change for us. I for one believe the advantages of open source software are so overwhelming I am willing to push to win. OO is so close. Let's go that last 2%. ---End Message--- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: discuss-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [discuss] How to make OO the standard
On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 13:22:44 PM -0400, Wm Stewart (wstew...@livinginternet.com) wrote: b. Solving compatibility is under the community's control NO. It isn't. By definition. Because it's not the community that controls when the secret formats it's trying to catch will stop moving and changing. UNLESS you limit this game to version of the formats that no MS user produces anymore, surely not .docx. And even in that case it would still require a very big effort We've been at this discussion for years now. I believe evidence trumps opinion. Bill, at this point, what *I* see as evidence and believe in good faith is that you're surely a great person with good intentions, but if you don't understand what I've written 3 times today in shorter and shorter sentences you shouldn't engage in certain discussions. I can't get past this conclusion. Maybe I'm totally right, maybe I'm totally wrong because my own brain is limited. So be it. Don't worry about it because I really have no time or wish to continue this discussion. I'll do my best to ignore any other message in this thread. Have a nice weekend. Marco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: discuss-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [discuss] How to make OO the standard
Hi, Another factor is perceived value based on price. Many people assume things are better when they cost more/at all, without examining actual quality and value even slightly. I unfortunately don't have a clue how to address this, because I can't grasp the mentality behind it in order to see how to change it. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: discuss-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [discuss] How to make OO the standard
On 10/16/2010 8:56 PM, Bianca Gibson wrote: Hi, Another factor is perceived value based on price. Many people assume things are better when they cost more/at all, without examining actual quality and value even slightly. I unfortunately don't have a clue how to address this, because I can't grasp the mentality behind it in order to see how to change it. I mentioned free software back when there wasn't much of it out there. My office mate, who is an ultimate pessimist, sarcastically suggested that you get what you pay for. My experience since is that this is false. The ratio of functionality to cost, where cost includes learning and maintenance, is much higher with free software than with commercial software. I moved to OO.o with 1.1 and have not looked back. David Teague - To unsubscribe, e-mail: discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: discuss-h...@openoffice.org
[discuss] Re: How to make OO the standard
RA Brown wrote, [..] How do you propose to make OOo 100% compatible with MSO? The structure of the files is closed so no one but MS has them. Reverse engineering can only do so much. _IF_ MS used a published format that everyone could access then it would be easy to do, but they don't. Andy But haven't Microsoft released specifications for their binary file formats? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc313105.aspx Just how accurate, complete or useful that information is, I have no idea. -- Bob Long - To unsubscribe, e-mail: discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: discuss-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [discuss] How to make OO the standard
I mentioned free software back when there wasn't much of it out there. My office mate, who is an ultimate pessimist, sarcastically suggested that you get what you pay for. My experience since is that this is false. The ratio of functionality to cost, where cost includes learning and maintenance, is much higher with free software than with commercial software. I moved to OO.o with 1.1 and have not looked back. David Teague I completely agree with you, I was just saying people hold that view, and for OO to become the standard it needs to be addressed. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: discuss-h...@openoffice.org
