Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] Using USRP/GNURADIO Commercially
You can charge any price you like, and you're only obligated to pass on the code to those you sold or gave the binaries to. Well, no. Once you ship a binary to even a single person (outside your company), that person is free under the GPL license to make and share as many copies of the binary as they like. Each eventual recipient has the right to come back to you to get the source code. Each binary must come with an offer that says how to get the matching source. Your recipients are free to reproduce that offer for their recipients. So, you are obligated to provide source code that matches each binary version that you ship, to *anyone* who has the binary (not just your own customers), for three years or the support lifetime of the binary product, whichever is longer, and for a low cost. See paragraph 6(b) of http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html . There's a FAQ on the GNU Public License at that same web page. But answer me this: Why did we (the gnuradio experts) select a license that does not provide a clear answer to Matt's question? I'm one of the originators of the GNU Radio project. We picked the GPL because it protects the freedom of the code (and the code's users), and encourages a community to form around the code. By then I'd already started and sold off one company that made tons of money by selling and supporting GPL-licensed and other free software. I really didn't see any problem with making commercial gear that used GNU Radio under the GPL. There are tons of network routers and PDAs and such that ship with GNU/Linux inside -- much of which is also GPL-licensed. Those companies seem to be able to read the license, figure it out, and make money. You can make money with free software by selling your expertise; by selling convenience; by selling support; by selling quality assurance; by selling documentation; by selling hardware that works with free software (like Ettus Research does); and in other ways. You just can't make money by preventing people from seeing your code, freely sharing your code, and improving it if they want to. When we started GNU Radio, the only working software-defined radio code was proprietary. The opportunity was there to build a community-maintained SDR code base, that everyone would be free to experiment with, share, improve, or commercialize. We did it (thanks, everybody)! Eric and I could've built another proprietary SDR package, but then you wouldn't all be here having this conversation. John (PS: Most of the proprietary software I've seen has even more draconian and unreadable licenses than the free software.) ___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] Using USRP/GNURADIO Commercially
John, I understand that if you just provide the binaries to a customer, you must give them a means to get the source code, and if they choose to distribute that binary to others, they'll just pass on that original offer and hence you're on the hook for providing anyone with source thereafter. Yes? However... If I provide the binaries source code to a customer (and make it clear that the source code will always be included with any binary I deliver to them), can't I just stipulate that the customer must then provide the binaries source bundled together if they choose to redistribute it? E.g., the offer to obtain the source code would ready something like, you should have already received the source with this binary file; if you haven't, the person or company you received the binary from must provide you with the source. I'm thinking of the scenario here where you're a consultant and work on a bunch of small projects using GPL'd code, but you *always* deliver the full source code along with your binaries to your own customers. Having to then deal with anyone and everyone your own customer chooses to provide the product to then seems quite onerous for a single-man consulting company. I'd appreciate your input; thanks! (Disclaimer: I realize you're not a lawyer and you're just giving your personal interpretation and not professional legal advice on these matters.) ---Joel ___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] Using USRP/GNURADIO Commercially
On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 11:47 AM, Joel Koltner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John, I understand that if you just provide the binaries to a customer, you must give them a means to get the source code, and if they choose to distribute that binary to others, they'll just pass on that original offer and hence you're on the hook for providing anyone with source thereafter. Yes? However... If I provide the binaries source code to a customer (and make it clear that the source code will always be included with any binary I deliver to them), can't I just stipulate that the customer must then provide the binaries source bundled together if they choose to redistribute it? E.g., the offer to obtain the source code would ready something like, you should have already received the source with this binary file; if you haven't, the person or company you received the binary from must provide you with the source. This is how GPLv2 works. You're *only* obligated to provide the code to people you provide the binaries to (on request, and at a reasonable cost). They are then obligated to do the same to people they directly redistribute to. If you hand out the code with the initial copy you have no further obligation. v3 is even simpler in that it lets you direct people to online repositories for off the shelf code. ___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] Using USRP/GNURADIO Commercially
Joel- Your question doesn't make sense to me. If your clients pay you to develop source code that derives from, or partially incorporates, GPL licensed code then they own the developed source, not you. They are responsible for license issues with the newly developed code. If someone were to ask you, the answer is simply it's not my code. The only way you would still be involved is if there was some IP that you owned and licensed to your client. Is there? -Jeff I understand that if you just provide the binaries to a customer, you must give them a means to get the source code, and if they choose to distribute that binary to others, they'll just pass on that original offer and hence you're on the hook for providing anyone with source thereafter. Yes? However... If I provide the binaries source code to a customer (and make it clear that the source code will always be included with any binary I deliver to them), can't I just stipulate that the customer must then provide the binaries source bundled together if they choose to redistribute it? E.g., the offer to obtain the source code would ready something like, you should have already received the source with this binary file; if you haven't, the person or company you received the binary from must provide you with the source. I'm thinking of the scenario here where you're a consultant and work on a bunch of small projects using GPL'd code, but you *always* deliver the full source code along with your binaries to your own customers. Having to then deal with anyone and everyone your own customer chooses to provide the product to then seems quite onerous for a single-man consulting company. I'd appreciate your input; thanks! (Disclaimer: I realize you're not a lawyer and you're just giving your personal interpretation and not professional legal advice on these matters.) ---Joel ___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] Using USRP/GNURADIO Commercially
Jeff Brower [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Joel- Your question doesn't make sense to me. If your clients pay you to develop source code that derives from, or partially incorporates, GPL licensed code then they own the developed source, not you. They are responsible for license issues with the newly developed code. This is getting way off topic, but this is incorrect (assuming we are talking in the US). Look up the work for hire doctrine in copyright law. Absent a written agreement, the general notion is the clients do not hold copyright, but employers do. sort of on topic: This is why the FSF asks for a disclaimer from employers that code is not within the scope of employment. My GNU Radio changes, and that of my project team, are assigned to FSF, but the assignment is from BBN since those were changes made by employees (and done within the scope of employment). ___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] Using USRP/GNURADIO Commercially
Greg- Your question doesn't make sense to me. If your clients pay you to develop source code that derives from, or partially incorporates, GPL licensed code then they own the developed source, not you. They are responsible for license issues with the newly developed code. This is getting way off topic, but this is incorrect (assuming we are talking in the US). Look up the work for hire doctrine in copyright law. Absent a written agreement, the general notion is the clients do not hold copyright, but employers do. sort of on topic: This is why the FSF asks for a disclaimer from employers that code is not within the scope of employment. My GNU Radio changes, and that of my project team, are assigned to FSF, but the assignment is from BBN since those were changes made by employees (and done within the scope of employment). I was assuming a development contract that specified the client received all rights to the code for which they paid for development. All good points that you make. Thanks. I should have made my assumption clear. -Jeff ___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] Using USRP/GNURADIO Commercially
Your question doesn't make sense to me. If your clients pay you to develop source code that derives from, or partially incorporates, GPL licensed code then they own the developed source, not you. They might own it, but since using GPL requires the company who paid me to provide the new source code (that I developed) upon request to anyone they provide the binaries to (and allow that person to then use it for their own projects or whatever), I'm not sure the term ownership is particularly meaningful at that point. I believe a common consulting situation is where you develop some software using GPL'd code and provide binaries source back to a company that only uses the software internally and never distributes it to anyone outside the company (thus no one outside the company gets the source code *nor* binaries); the GPL makes it clear that no one can force you to distribute your binaries if you don't wish to do so. As such they might as well own it, I suppose. I realize that, with enough legal contortions, you can attempt to separate out proprietary parts covered by your own license from those that are GPL'd, like, e.g., the DD-WRT people did. People have spent a huge amount of time arguing about whether or not doing so can is legal, but until it's tried in court no one really knows. It certainly violates the *intent* of the GPL. (Someone with such an intent should be using software licensed under the lGPL, for instance...) ---Joel ___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] Using USRP/GNURADIO Commercially
Matt-John wrote: Hello All, We are planning to use USRP/GNURADIO core to produce some commercial products. Is this legal ? If not, how we can make it legal ? We dont want to start anything not legal, so the answer is important.Thanks. Matt I am also interested in knowing the answer to this question. Thanks. Cho Bonus -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Using-USRP-GNURADIO-Commercially-tp18396747p18552058.html Sent from the GnuRadio mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] Using USRP/GNURADIO Commercially
On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:26:03AM -0700, Choolo wrote: Matt-John wrote: Hello All, We are planning to use USRP/GNURADIO core to produce some commercial products. Is this legal ? If not, how we can make it legal ? We dont want to start anything not legal, so the answer is important.Thanks. Matt I am also interested in knowing the answer to this question. Thanks. Cho Bonus IANAL. You'll want to talk to one. As long as you observe the terms that the code is licensed under, you are free to do with the USRP and GNU Radio as you like. GNU Radio is licensed under the GNU General Public License, v3 or later. The FPGA portion of the USRP is licensed under the GNU General Public License, v2 or later. The GPL v3 is here: http://gnuradio.org/trac/browser/gnuradio/trunk/COPYING?format=raw You should seek professional legal advice and be sure that you understand the terms of the license. Eric ___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] Using USRP/GNURADIO Commercially
On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Eric Blossom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:26:03AM -0700, Choolo wrote: Matt-John wrote: Hello All, We are planning to use USRP/GNURADIO core to produce some commercial products. Is this legal ? If not, how we can make it legal ? We dont want to start anything not legal, so the answer is important.Thanks. Matt I am also interested in knowing the answer to this question. Thanks. Cho Bonus IANAL. You'll want to talk to one. As long as you observe the terms that the code is licensed under, you are free to do with the USRP and GNU Radio as you like. GNU Radio is licensed under the GNU General Public License, v3 or later. The FPGA portion of the USRP is licensed under the GNU General Public License, v2 or later. The GPL v3 is here: http://gnuradio.org/trac/browser/gnuradio/trunk/COPYING?format=raw You should seek professional legal advice and be sure that you understand the terms of the license. This book might help you understand the issues: http://www.amazon.com/Open-Source-Licensing-Software-Intellectual/dp/0131487876 Philip ___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] Using USRP/GNURADIO Commercially
As others have already said, but just to emphasize the point yet again, you really need to talk with a lawyer / firm qualified to understand your business' (potential or real) issues. IANAL and TINLA! To get more specific: Are you planning on using the USRP for wireless (RF) applications? That's a whole other issue above and beyond making sure you abide by the software licenses (which Eric others have covered well). Using a USRP as a test, measurement, and evaluation (TME) device for RF transmissions is in general not illegal so long as FCC conditions are met (e.g. Part 15 and other Parts). BUT: The issues become more complicated for commercial (non-TME, end- user) products. That's where consulting a knowledgeable lawyer / firm would be your wisest course of action. Again, IANAL, TINLA ... but ... if you want to discuss further, I am happy to do so !off list! . - MLD ___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] Using USRP/GNURADIO Commercially
On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 7:49 AM, Eric Blossom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You should seek professional legal advice and be sure that you understand the terms of the license. The problem is finding a lawyer who truly, actually understands the GPL. They're both pretty busy these days. ;-) Having been through this drill, I can tell you that IP lawyers generally do *not* know squat about Open Source issues, and hence will tell you to stay away from the GPL in toto. Those who claim expertise are in fact telling you they'd be happy to take your money to spend the time learning what they're implying they already know. Frank -- Travelling by airplane in the US is nothing more than mass training of Americans to the requirements of the coming police state. The whole point is to make you learn to acquiesce without question, en masse, to completely absurd directives by dull functionaries wearing uniforms. -- Atrios ___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] Using USRP/GNURADIO Commercially
Matt-John wrote: Hello All, We are planning to use USRP/GNURADIO core to produce some commercial products. Is this legal ? If not, how we can make it legal ? Matt Matt, I'm sorry, but that is illegal. You can use the USRP, but not the GNURADIO firmware or software. Rudy _ With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you. http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_mobile_072008 ___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] Using USRP/GNURADIO Commercially
I'm sorry? Please expand on why this is illegal? Wouldn't this be similar to say red hat linux or any other commercial linux distro? Please provide more info. Making a broad statement that something is illegal is quite a bold move. I certainly hope you can back the statement up and in fact I am looking forward to it. Charles Wyble --Original Message-- From: Rudy Moore Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org Sent: Jul 20, 2008 12:51 PM Subject: Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] Using USRP/GNURADIO Commercially Matt-John wrote: Hello All, We are planning to use USRP/GNURADIO core to produce some commercial products. Is this legal ? If not, how we can make it legal ? Matt Matt, I'm sorry, but that is illegal. You can use the USRP, but not the GNURADIO firmware or software. Rudy _ With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you. http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_mobile_072008 ___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] Using USRP/GNURADIO Commercially
Rudy Moore wrote: We are planning to use USRP/GNURADIO core to produce some commercial products. Is this legal ? If not, how we can make it legal ? I'm sorry, but that is illegal. You can use the USRP, but not the GNURADIO firmware or software. Rudy Um, no. GNU Radio is licensed under the terms of the GPLv3 or later. This license does not prevent commercial sale of products based on GNU Radio and/or the USRP. It does, however, have license terms which must be adhered to when doing so. Anyone in this situation is advised to obtain competent legal advice (i.e., not from this mailing list.) ___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
RE: [Discuss-gnuradio] Using USRP/GNURADIO Commercially
Matt, I'm sorry, but that is illegal. You can use the USRP, but not the GNURADIO firmware or software. Rudy This is completely false. The GNU GPL license does allow you to package the software covered by the license and sell it so long as you make the software freely available to the buyer. if you distribute copies of such a program, whether gratis or for a fee, you must pass on to the recipients the same freedoms that you received. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source code. And you must show them these terms so they know their rights. Developers that use the GNU GPL protect your rights with two steps: (1) assert copyright on the software, and (2) offer you this License giving you legal permission to copy, distribute and/or modify it. However, you have to be very careful if you plan on using software covered by GPL commercially. Depending on how you use it, you could be forced to provide and other source code you develop that you package with the GPL software. Definitely seek legal advice. I am not a lawyer but I am heavily involved with IP issues. -Kenan Ezal P.S. Although this probably my first post to this list I have been following the discussions on this board for several years and I manage a DOD program using the USRP and GNURadio. ___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
RE: [Discuss-gnuradio] Using USRP/GNURADIO Commercially
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 13:55:50 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm sorry, but that is illegal. You can use the USRP, but not the GNURADIO firmware or software. Um, no. Okay you got me. But answer me this: Why did we (the gnuradio experts) select a license that does not provide a clear answer to Matt's question? Rudy _ Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_072008___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] Using USRP/GNURADIO Commercially
On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 3:30 PM, Michael Ossmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...An educated lawyer is going to be able to provide insights into how a particular license or contract affects his or her client, even after a single reading, that a layman would not notice... The complaint is aimed at a general tendency of the lawyers I've actually dealt with, repeatedly, in connection with dual-licensing issues involving code of my own already under GPL. That's around 3/4 dozen attorneys. Of that group, only one was candid enough to admit up-front to ignorance concerning the GPL. The remainder basically engaged in elaborate handwaving. (Full disclosure: some of them were on the *other* side of the negotiation, and not doing their clients any favors.) The problem isn't not knowing, the problem is dissembling about not knowing. The point is, caveat emptor. Frank -- Travelling by airplane in the US is nothing more than mass training of Americans to the requirements of the coming police state. The whole point is to make you learn to acquiesce without question, en masse, to completely absurd directives by dull functionaries wearing uniforms. -- Atrios ___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] Using USRP/GNURADIO Commercially
On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Rudy Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Okay you got me. But answer me this: Why did we (the gnuradio experts) select a license that does not provide a clear answer to Matt's question? The answer *is* clear. It's not even very complicated. Nevertheless, for one's own protection, the validation of that claim should come from a licensed attorney. Just be very sure the attorney actually knows the answer. Frank -- Travelling by airplane in the US is nothing more than mass training of Americans to the requirements of the coming police state. The whole point is to make you learn to acquiesce without question, en masse, to completely absurd directives by dull functionaries wearing uniforms. -- Atrios ___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] Using USRP/GNURADIO Commercially
On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 6:09 PM, Rudy Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 13:55:50 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm sorry, but that is illegal. You can use the USRP, but not the GNURADIO firmware or software. Um, no. Okay you got me. But answer me this: Why did we (the gnuradio experts) select a license that does not provide a clear answer to Matt's question? Um. WTF? The preamble to the GPLv3 states in its preamble: For example, if you distribute copies of such a program, whether gratis or for a fee, you must pass on to the recipients the same freedoms that you received. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source code. And you must show them these terms so they know their rights. Commercial sale is an orthogonal issue to most of what the licensing is doing. You are welcome, even encouraged to make commercial use of the software. Please do so and enhance the diversity of usage we'll all gain. Commercial use/sale is clearly and explicitly *permitted*. However, like any other contract or license you have certain obligations. For the GPL (any version) your primary obligation is that if you redistribute the GPL licensed software or modified versions you must pass on the code (and the code for any modifications) along with the same rights (allowing further redistribution of those GPL covered components, allowing modification). You can charge any price you like, and you're only obligated to pass on the code to those you sold or gave the binaries to. This is not rocket science. The GPL (v3) is one of the most straight-forward and human readable non-trivial licenses or contracts that I've ever seen. Of course, it's also good advice to consult a knowledgeable attorney on even the most simplistic and common transactions of importance.. Real estate, software licensing for a product... no difference. I notice you also mention USRP. Please keep in mind that if you build a radio transmitting device using the USRP you will almost certainly be subject to FCC (in the US) regulation as well as radio licensing in whatever countries your product is sold in. I'm not aware of anyone obtaining type approval for a USRP based device, and doing so may by tricky. This is true even if your device operates solely in the license free ISM bands. ___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
