Re: Tone of discussion (Re: what makes a good president and chairperson?)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 > > Stop talking on behalf of Matthias Kirchner and let him exercise > > his own > > defence. I don't think I called you into this, don't remember > > mentioning > > your name. > > Please respect that I can speak out for whomever I'd like, whenever I > like. > > This is our mailinglist, so it's partly mine and I blieve I can speak > out, > just like anybody to defend a civil tone here. The statements you've > cited > are not civil in my opinion. I usually don't post here but this is a tone I'm not comfortable with from you Bernhard. You don't have an automatic right to copy someone else's identity and speak for their behalf, if you refer to the freedom of speech then that is a totally different thing altogether. "This is my mailinglist so I can say what I want." and then "You are not civil." is not something I would hear on a TV debate I think. You claim your right to be somewhat rude since you moderate the list, in that case maybe you should stick to only moderating and not voicing your opinions since you can be mistaken for what some would call "an asshole"? Kind regards, Andreas -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iHUEAREKAB0WIQRzLcEzYZ4mgAzFhvO5vYi5hUgLzgUCW49qGQAKCRC5vYi5hUgL ztb7AP9p++hLHnPBcJ6OmldaHv/bSS6kTaEUCdkKz6OLgFdZbAD/ePYcb9c+sCWy V8aPFqfL6RgY11x62m+AFeB+V2WiIu4= =rI72 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Discussion mailing list Discussion@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion This mailing list is covered by the FSFE's Code of Conduct. All participants are kindly asked to be excellent to each other: https://fsfe.org/about/codeofconduct
Re: what makes a good president and chairperson?
On 04/09/18 10:06, Bernhard E. Reiter wrote: > Hi, > > Am Montag 03 September 2018 22:12:28 schrieb Stefan Uygur: >> Pretty much it >> Can't say l disagree. > > thanks for quoting the HTML email. > Can you say to which you agree with in particular? > Carsten's statement that we believes that everything is basically fine? Bernhard, are you trying to change/misrepresent the intention of somebody else's email? > >>> Funny question but how did a little posse in Berlin trying to a-- f--- >>> the absent fellowship rep benefit free software? > > Daniel had several potential ways to make sure his opinion and vote would > have > been represented. He had chosen to not pursue any of them. There also is a > second fellowship representative. And the change voted upon there was already > in planning before Daniel became to have a fellowship seat. He knows all this > and could not convince others about his ways of working over several months > and now does not accept what a majority has concluded and goes public here. > It is yours do judge the discussion of course. > Now you are misrepresenting me As I wrote[1] in February, I actually support the idea of replacing the fellowship elections with a better system. The meeting in May voted on two motions though. The first motion abolished any future election for a representative. The second motion included a very aggressive and ultimately toxic option to immediately end the last remaining fellowship representative's membership of the association. It was tucked away on the last page of a 9 page document where not all members noticed it. To put it bluntly, that motion is like somebody spitting in my face and then expecting me to respond politely. It implies that volunteers, like myself, are disposable and deserve little respect. The president should have anticipated that it would be hard for people to work together in a friendly manner after such a vote and that is one of several reasons the call for his resignation is far from a trivial issue. Regards, Daniel 1. https://danielpocock.com/our-future-relationship-with-fsfe-2018 ___ Discussion mailing list Discussion@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion This mailing list is covered by the FSFE's Code of Conduct. All participants are kindly asked to be excellent to each other: https://fsfe.org/about/codeofconduct
Re: what makes a good president and chairperson?
On 04/09/18 09:54, Bernhard E. Reiter wrote: > Hi Daniel, > > Am Montag 03 September 2018 19:04:25 schrieb Daniel Pocock: >> The ideal president or chairperson needs to be somebody who can unite >> staff, volunteers, fellows, supporters, donors and external parties. To >> chair meetings, lead effectively and gain respect when representing FSFE >> publicly, they need to be above the controversial politics we have seen >> recently and acceptable to everybody. > > and how do you find such an ideal person? > In most organizations, they let any member of the community nominate for the position and then all the people can vote. An election. >> The president doesn't have to be staff, it could be a volunteer too, we >> have over 1,500 people in the community and I'm sure there are many good >> candidates there. > > Our anchor person has much to do, a volunteer wouldn't have enough time on > her > hands to do the job. > The key responsibilities are to prepare for the annual meetings and chair those meetings. Everything else is optional or could be delegated to staff or other volunteers. Remember the days before email? Somebody could be on various committees and boards and if they stayed home one night they wouldn't hear about any of them. Perpetuating the current burden on the president only guarantees that nobody else will apply to be in the role, perpetuating the culture that people are complaining about. Regards, Daniel ___ Discussion mailing list Discussion@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion This mailing list is covered by the FSFE's Code of Conduct. All participants are kindly asked to be excellent to each other: https://fsfe.org/about/codeofconduct
Tone of discussion (Re: what makes a good president and chairperson?)
Stefan, > I clearly quoted to Matthias's email, was that hard to understand this. because of the HTML format of the email you were citing, I wasn't sure if you really meant to support what you have cited or meant the included citation of the email that redated it. > I don't think l have posted anything disrespectful here, ever in this ml. > > So be nice and respect my feedback/opinion and stop with your lecturings > plus insinuations pls. At least the above statement is something that I could read as disrespectful, as I merely wanted to understand what you mean. The second part of my email was to repond to what you have only cited and originated from matthias.ha...@zoho.eu. > Stop talking on behalf of Matthias Kirchner and let him exercise his own > defence. I don't think I called you into this, don't remember mentioning > your name. Please respect that I can speak out for whomever I'd like, whenever I like. This is our mailinglist, so it's partly mine and I blieve I can speak out, just like anybody to defend a civil tone here. The statements you've cited are not civil in my opinion. > Not accusations but issues. Up to now I believe I have responded to all questions, to some questions more then once. This a least clarifies the position where I stand. And it saves others to to explain some of the things which have been explained before. I don't think it necessarily takes FSFE's anchor person to respond to each question, especially when it was already explained sufficiently (for most) by many. Best Regards, Bernhard -- FSFE -- Founding Member Support our work for Free Software: blogs.fsfe.org/bernhard https://fsfe.org/donate | contribute signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Discussion mailing list Discussion@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion This mailing list is covered by the FSFE's Code of Conduct. All participants are kindly asked to be excellent to each other: https://fsfe.org/about/codeofconduct
Re: what makes a good president and chairperson?
Bernard, I clearly quoted to Matthias's email, was that hard to understand this. I don't think l have posted anything disrespectful here, ever in this ml. So be nice and respect my feedback/opinion and stop with your lecturings plus insinuations pls. Stop talking on behalf of Matthias Kirchner and let him exercise his own defence. I don't think I called you into this, don't remember mentioning your name. More you talk this way and more he is not showing up more people will get convinced that things are upside down in this organisation. This is becoming really noisy now, l have asked clearly to stop this debate that is running on different threads and let the main representative to feedback and respond to issues raised. Not accusations but issues. Apparently you ignored that email. If you can be so kind to let Matthias to handle and talk on his behalf pls. Would appreciate that. Best of luck. On Tue, 4 Sep 2018, 09:06 Bernhard E. Reiter, wrote: > Hi, > > Am Montag 03 September 2018 22:12:28 schrieb Stefan Uygur: > > Pretty much it > > Can't say l disagree. > > thanks for quoting the HTML email. > Can you say to which you agree with in particular? > Carsten's statement that we believes that everything is basically fine? > > > On Mon, 3 Sep 2018, 21:08 Matthias Hager, > wrote: > > > All the crazy stuff on this list doesn't make you cringe? The culture > of > > > this organization is hideous. Everybody is infected with it. > > It is this kind of statements that we do not want here. > Even if you'd have a few persons that write in a disrespectful tone, there > is > no need to generally accuse everybody. > > What shall we do if questions are asked? Even in a disrespectful tone? > We had chosen the path to allow them and reply with answers and a good > tone. > So we attempt to err in doubt of the argument. However if the tone is > degrading, we need to be more strict about our moderation policy to protect > the other people who want to ask and discuss in a civil tone. > > > > Get a new leader and get a new culture. Other people worry about too > > > many details but they are right about the solution: change > > Sorry, change without detailed plan or purpose is just activism. > Something I do not like in politics in general. Do you? > > > > Funny question but how did a little posse in Berlin trying to a-- f--- > > > the absent fellowship rep benefit free software? > > Daniel had several potential ways to make sure his opinion and vote would > have > been represented. He had chosen to not pursue any of them. There also is a > second fellowship representative. And the change voted upon there was > already > in planning before Daniel became to have a fellowship seat. He knows all > this > and could not convince others about his ways of working over several > months > and now does not accept what a majority has concluded and goes public > here. > It is yours do judge the discussion of course. > > Regards, > Bernhard > > -- > FSFE -- Founding Member Support our work for Free Software: > blogs.fsfe.org/bernhard https://fsfe.org/donate | contribute > ___ > Discussion mailing list > Discussion@lists.fsfe.org > https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion > > This mailing list is covered by the FSFE's Code of Conduct. All > participants are kindly asked to be excellent to each other: > https://fsfe.org/about/codeofconduct > ___ Discussion mailing list Discussion@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion This mailing list is covered by the FSFE's Code of Conduct. All participants are kindly asked to be excellent to each other: https://fsfe.org/about/codeofconduct
Re: Free Software economics
Hi Paul, [deliberately breaking the thread, so this does not get drowned in unrelated stuff, only quoting a bit] Am Freitag 31 August 2018 15:35:21 schrieb Paul Boddie: > Unfortunately, the "for exposure" culture encourages people to overstretch. It is just one out of several motivations to develop Free Software or participate actively in a community. In general I think the good effects of "for exposure" are exaggerated in society, it seems to be a problem of modern social media. ut the "for exposure" argument is overblown in other parts of society as well, it is a general problem of modern social media. Just think about influencers. > In one case in the Python community, someone who had been "all over" every > topic of concern eventually burned out: > > http://jessenoller.com/blog/2015/9/27/a-lot-happens It is sad to read. We can find many examples. When making policies and organisating, we need to keep looking out for a work/volunteer/life balance. Doing this for Free Software is quite similiar to other job or honorary positions. > since this kind of "noble volunteerism" meshes with a popular flavours > of capitalism, such people and the lessons they have for us are readily > forgotten, their misfortune seen as "regrettable" but somehow an acceptable > cost to bring about other people's success. At least not here. We must teach people how to keep the balance, make good choices and we need to make sure that the structure in society allows for people to grow, be happy. Hopefully even catching them, if they stumble and fall. > I mention this particularly because it may help some people to understand > why people become so aggrieved and feel mistreated. It is one reason to become aggieved, there are others as well. However when being in such a state it is more important to watch out for oneself and leave the situation which causes this sort of stress. And while surrounding people maybe empathic, they also need to be clear to draw a line and sometimes to end the situation to protect themselfs and this person in an emotional difficult situation. == Professional offerings for Free Software > There most certainly are professional offerings, yes. But then again, there > are people like Werner whose PGP libraries are being used by billion dollar > corporations as the foundation of their businesses' operational viability, > and yet it apparently took security scares in other cryptographic libraries > and Edward Snowden's remarks to crack open wallets and get things funded at > a more tolerable level. The publications of Edward Snowden were a wakeup call for some. It maybe sad that it sometimes has to make headlines before people take some action. However I believe that the growing numbers of supporters of FSFE also support our mission because they like what we are explaining it to more policy makers and companies why funding better Free Software is in their own best interest (while being better for society as well). > I am arguing against the zero-sum game played by various businesses, > the result of which is a shoal of little fish whose only defence is not to > be big enough to be noticed by the big (proprietary) fish that everybody > else has to deal with. This seems to say that many Free Software businesses could do something in a better way. While I agree that offerings could be better, this would also take customers to be willing to buy those offerings. It is a circle and if we want it to grow, we can act at any situation. (This is why I had started paying for Free Software many years ago.) > From conversations I have had over the years, I sometimes wonder whether > certain companies regard their Free Software competitors as worse enemies > than the proprietary vendors and solutions they should all be doing their > best to defeat. So that game of divide and rule continues, of course. To me it seem natural that the small company offering something similar to yours is often seen as competitor. However there are business associations where the same companies are working together. E.g. the Open Source Business Alliance in Germany. From personal experience I can say that it is a challenge to cooperate with many companies, just size would not get you the contracts. (My company does cooperate as much as we can, this is why I know it is difficult.) Best Regards, Bernhard -- FSFE -- Founding Member Support our work for Free Software: blogs.fsfe.org/bernhard https://fsfe.org/donate | contribute signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Discussion mailing list Discussion@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion This mailing list is covered by the FSFE's Code of Conduct. All participants are kindly asked to be excellent to each other: https://fsfe.org/about/codeofconduct
Re: what makes a good president and chairperson?
Hi, Am Montag 03 September 2018 22:12:28 schrieb Stefan Uygur: > Pretty much it > Can't say l disagree. thanks for quoting the HTML email. Can you say to which you agree with in particular? Carsten's statement that we believes that everything is basically fine? > On Mon, 3 Sep 2018, 21:08 Matthias Hager, wrote: > > All the crazy stuff on this list doesn't make you cringe? The culture of > > this organization is hideous. Everybody is infected with it. It is this kind of statements that we do not want here. Even if you'd have a few persons that write in a disrespectful tone, there is no need to generally accuse everybody. What shall we do if questions are asked? Even in a disrespectful tone? We had chosen the path to allow them and reply with answers and a good tone. So we attempt to err in doubt of the argument. However if the tone is degrading, we need to be more strict about our moderation policy to protect the other people who want to ask and discuss in a civil tone. > > Get a new leader and get a new culture. Other people worry about too > > many details but they are right about the solution: change Sorry, change without detailed plan or purpose is just activism. Something I do not like in politics in general. Do you? > > Funny question but how did a little posse in Berlin trying to a-- f--- > > the absent fellowship rep benefit free software? Daniel had several potential ways to make sure his opinion and vote would have been represented. He had chosen to not pursue any of them. There also is a second fellowship representative. And the change voted upon there was already in planning before Daniel became to have a fellowship seat. He knows all this and could not convince others about his ways of working over several months and now does not accept what a majority has concluded and goes public here. It is yours do judge the discussion of course. Regards, Bernhard -- FSFE -- Founding Member Support our work for Free Software: blogs.fsfe.org/bernhard https://fsfe.org/donate | contribute signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Discussion mailing list Discussion@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion This mailing list is covered by the FSFE's Code of Conduct. All participants are kindly asked to be excellent to each other: https://fsfe.org/about/codeofconduct
Re: what makes a good president and chairperson? (was: supporting our fellowship representative)
Hi Daniel, Am Montag 03 September 2018 19:04:25 schrieb Daniel Pocock: > The ideal president or chairperson needs to be somebody who can unite > staff, volunteers, fellows, supporters, donors and external parties. To > chair meetings, lead effectively and gain respect when representing FSFE > publicly, they need to be above the controversial politics we have seen > recently and acceptable to everybody. and how do you find such an ideal person? > The president doesn't have to be staff, it could be a volunteer too, we > have over 1,500 people in the community and I'm sure there are many good > candidates there. Our anchor person has much to do, a volunteer wouldn't have enough time on her hands to do the job. > Matthias could continue to lead the staff in the Executive Director > role, given Jonas' recent news that he is vacating that role? Could > this be the most constructive way to move forward and close the chapter > on the recent politics? No, it couldn't. Politics don't go away. And the executive director position is almost as powerful as the anchor person position, so if you'd support Matthias in that position, you'd also support him in his current position. Matthias is doing a very good job in my opinion (and in the majority of FSFE people I know). > Maybe a dramatic change of leader could also be a good alternative to > the endless discussions about diversity. Which endless discussion are you referring to? Diversity is a difficult topic with a lot of inertia in society. From the beginning we in FSFE have tried to enhance it, were only having a minor successes and we will try again with learned lessons. Thus we evolve and will continue the topic from now to then, discussing it. I see this as a good thing. > By making it a position for a volunteer, more people might apply for it. May apply yes, but being able to do a good job on it: No, because they'd lack time. Regards, Bernhard -- FSFE -- Founding Member Support our work for Free Software: blogs.fsfe.org/bernhard https://fsfe.org/donate | contribute signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Discussion mailing list Discussion@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion This mailing list is covered by the FSFE's Code of Conduct. All participants are kindly asked to be excellent to each other: https://fsfe.org/about/codeofconduct
