Re: Mozilla: "We’re taking a break from Facebook"

[Paul Boddie]

On Friday, 24 September 2021 08:17:04 CEST Nico Rikken wrote:
> Interesting remarks and helpful to the discussion. Happy to hear that
> the Norwegian Data Protection Authority came to that decision.

They aren't the only ones:

"Norwegian Biotechnology Advisory Board leaves Facebook"
https://www.bioteknologiradet.no/2021/10/bioteknologiradet-forlater-facebook/

Again, the motivation is that since they cannot assess how Facebook uses the 
data gathered about users by the platform, they cannot assess compliance with 
GDPR and other regulations, and yet a public institution with a presence on 
Facebook has a degree of responsibility for the data processing that is taking 
place. Purely to minimise user exposure to this kind of surveillance, the 
conclusion is that the only credible action is to leave Facebook.

[FSFE's recommendations]

> Apart from our press releases we regularly publish important news about
> our work and our campaigns. To ensure you receive them, you can
> subscribe to our newsletter: https://fsfe.org/news/newsletter

This is indeed the alternative now chosen by the public institution featured 
above. Of course, people will whine about such outcomes and tell everyone how 
e-mail is "dated" - I read another filler article along those lines only 
yesterday in a major news outlet - but e-mail seems to survive nevertheless.

I actually think that a campaign to make secure e-mail more usable, including 
the adoption of concrete technological measures, would be helpful. There is 
the FSF's e-mail self-defence guide, but a lot of the problems with mail, 
particularly when interacting with institutions, is that those institutions 
are not motivated to secure their communications. So, grassroots adoption of 
such technologies is neither sufficient, nor is it sufficiently persuasive for 
either institutions or wider society to change their habits.

Paul


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Re: Mozilla: "We’re taking a break from Facebook"

[Nico Rikken]

Interesting remarks and helpful to the discussion. Happy to hear that
the Norwegian Data Protection Authority came to that decision.

I just checked the FSFE's Facebook presence
https://www.facebook.com/thefsfe/

The last message is a post linking to other platforms:


This site is inactive.

Apart from our press releases we regularly publish important news about
our work and our campaigns. To ensure you receive them, you can
subscribe to our newsletter: https://fsfe.org/news/newsletter

We are also active on
Mastodon: https://mastodon.social/@fsfe
Twitter: https://twitter.com/fsfe
PeerTube: https://peertube.social/video-channels/fsfe_videos
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC68ldbHwL_-5qzETqOaAMWQ

There are also many ways to engage and you will surely find a way that
fits your interests and skills:
https://fsfe.org/contribute/contribute.html

Happy hacking!


Regarding the last comment about Facebook using censorship to prevent
users moving elsewhere, that is noteworthy and anti-competitive. The
FSFE post with links to different platforms is still up, so I think
that wouldn't matter for the FSFE.

When will it be time to remove the FSFE page? Or is it the FSFE's
contribution to make Facebook feel like a ghost town?

Best,
Nico


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Re: Mozilla: "We’re taking a break from Facebook"

[psutton]

On 04/04/18 09:56, Theo Schmidt wrote:
> Am 23.03.2018 um 17:48 schrieb Florian Snow:
> ...
>> On a sidenote, I think Facebook is a symptom of a privacy issue we as a
>> society have, but one that is currently starting to fail.  Not because
>> people realized it tracks them, but because they are choosing to be
>> tracked by someone else.  A lot of young people do not use Facebook
>> anymore, they use Snapchat and the likes and that is why Facebook had to
>> buy Whatsapp - to stay relevant.
> But Whatsapp belongs to Facebook as well! As does also Instagram.
>
>


But didn't fb get in trouble,  about the way data was shared between
these sites,  and told it can't do that.   It is perhaps worth having a
presence oj FB simply to highlight any action against them weather about
privacy or even policy changes,  so that people following are kept up
to  date,  the more people read about these subjects the more they will
hopefully engage and think about the issues.  Court action,  cases and
rulings are important no matter how small they seem.   FB are not going
to highlight these things,k  it is up to uses to force these issues to
trending and the FSFE et al can do that. 

FB has changed their policy as a result of what CA have been doing, but
that should never end the matter we need to keep this in the public
view,    a little but like what the groups in the US campaigning for
better gun controls and background checks,   if you drop the topic, 
people forget it very quickly.   If computer science is about
questioning how something works,  we need to get people asking
questions,  even to themselves about what are they sharing,  do they
need to share that etc.

Paul
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Re: Mozilla: "We’re taking a break from Facebook"

[Theo Schmidt]

Am 23.03.2018 um 17:48 schrieb Florian Snow:
...
> On a sidenote, I think Facebook is a symptom of a privacy issue we as a
> society have, but one that is currently starting to fail.  Not because
> people realized it tracks them, but because they are choosing to be
> tracked by someone else.  A lot of young people do not use Facebook
> anymore, they use Snapchat and the likes and that is why Facebook had to
> buy Whatsapp - to stay relevant.

But Whatsapp belongs to Facebook as well! As does also Instagram.


> Regarding your implied question of whether the FSFE should have a
> Facebook account, my answer is still yes, under certain conditions.
> First of all, the FSFE is an organization, not a person (and no,
> corporations are also not people!), so being tracked has completely
> different implications. ...


I think we are missing the point here. It is not only whether FB is free
software or not, how well it tracks users or even only about FB.

The point is, it is about world supremacy or even domination! Maybe even
the end of democracy as we know it! Firms like FB, G, A, etc. are taking
over the world and while they may come and go, there is a real danger
for mankind when one or more of these firms control not only media or
money, but also physical things like automobiles, weapons and resources.

Therefore we should strive to use only public or at least quasi-public
resources like IP, HTML, and email, or if unavoidable, avoid private
market-leaders at all costs. And the cost (of not using* FB (still the
market leader in "social media") for FSFE to me would seem small, but I
don't know.

Theo Schmidt


*and to use is to support, as the primary "currency" is not money here.
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Re: Mozilla: "We’re taking a break from Facebook"

[Adonay Felipe Nogueira]

> This is kind of problematic.
>
> In organization management --- not specific to "business" ---,
> particularly involving descentralized organizations with different
> managers each, this creates communication noise or action
> inconsistency. Of course each continent has its own culture, but I fail
> to see in European culture where having accounts in such centralized
> non-standardized full-of-JS-or-non-free-JS social network sites is
> considered a must.

To make my point clear: although it's not acceptable in the long-term,
I'm OK with other people ([1]) spreading the word about our actions in
Facebook, I can't speak for the FSF, but I think even the FSF sees this
as undesirable in long-term but acceptable when thinking about
short-term visibility --- to know why I came to this consideration about
FSF, open any news item in fsf.org, and click on the bold "Share on
social networks" link that is in the bottom.

[1] "Other people" in this message means: people who are not free/libre
software activists. These "other people" can also be only users of
free/libre software, but they don't have to be.
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Re: Mozilla: "We’re taking a break from Facebook"

[Adonay Felipe Nogueira]

> RMS says yadda yadda, so what?
>
> You can advertise on Facebook, post events, etc. I would not recommend
> you to put any private data in there that you consider do not belong to
> the eyes of Facebook or NSA or whoever that you do not trust.

This is kind of problematic.

In organization management --- not specific to "business" ---,
particularly involving descentralized organizations with different
managers each, this creates communication noise or action
inconsistency. Of course each continent has its own culture, but I fail
to see in European culture where having accounts in such centralized
non-standardized full-of-JS-or-non-free-JS social network sites is
considered a must.

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Re: Mozilla: "We’re taking a break from Facebook"

[Andreas Nilsson]

RMS says yadda yadda, so what?

You can advertise on Facebook, post events, etc. I would not recommend
you to put any private data in there that you consider do not belong to
the eyes of Facebook or NSA or whoever that you do not trust.

Ani

On Fri, 2018-03-23 at 03:38 -0600, C. Cossé wrote:
> To me it's a question of consistency:  does FSFE not agree with FSF? 
> RMS says "absolutely no to Facebook", so then?  
> 
> On Fri, Mar 23, 2018 at 3:32 AM, David Gerard 
> wrote:
> > The problem with Facebook is that it's the worst bar in town and
> > the
> > bouncers are horrible, but it's also the only one where you can
> > find
> > everyone.
> > 
> > So the question is its tactical usefulness for outreach versus its
> > awfulness.
> > 
> > On 23 March 2018 at 09:20, Jonke Suhr  wrote:
> > > Hey all,
> > >
> > > irregardless of the split in our community between privacy
> > pragmatists
> > > and privacy absolutists, I think we should take note of this step
> > > Mozilla has taken, as I believe FSFE still has a Facebook page
> > (last
> > > active on September 21st as far as I can ascertain).
> > >
> > >> Dear global community we’ve had the opportunity to interact with
> > over the past several years here:
> > >>
> > >> We’re taking a break from Facebook.
> > >>
> > >> At Mozilla we champion platforms and technologies that are good
> > for the web and good for the people that use it.
> > >> We stand up for transparency and user control because they make
> > the web healthier for us all.
> > >>
> > >> That’s why we are pressing pause on any Facebook activity. Mark
> > Zuckerberg has just promised to improve Facebook’s settings and
> > make them more protective, which is a start! Please do that! But we
> > can’t help but think we’ve heard it before, so we’re still going to
> > wait and see what materializes before we resume spending our ad
> > dollars or time here.
> > >>
> > >> IN THE MEANTIME:
> > >> If you need support for Firefox or want to tweet at us, you can
> > find us here: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/
> > >> and https://twitter.com/mozilla
> > >
> > > (Non-tracked link to the source:
> > > https://web.archive.org/web/20180323091845/https://de-de.facebook
> > .com/mozilla/posts/10156139176287381)
> > >
> > > What do you guys think?
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Jonke
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Re: Mozilla: "We’re taking a break from Facebook"

[Florian Snow]

Hi Jonke,

I can't help but feel this is a PR stunt from Mozilla.  Facebook
recently had a privacy scandal, but Facebook is the same it has always
been.  Asking them to reform their business is pointless because they
make money tracking users, so they can't stop tracking them.  Also, at
the end of the message, Mozilla asks people to use Twitter instead and
while Twitter does not ask for photos of users and names and such, it is
still able to track users through the web.  So in my opinion, Mozilla is
not all that serious here.

On a sidenote, I think Facebook is a symptom of a privacy issue we as a
society have, but one that is currently starting to fail.  Not because
people realized it tracks them, but because they are choosing to be
tracked by someone else.  A lot of young people do not use Facebook
anymore, they use Snapchat and the likes and that is why Facebook had to
buy Whatsapp - to stay relevant.

Regarding your implied question of whether the FSFE should have a
Facebook account, my answer is still yes, under certain conditions.
First of all, the FSFE is an organization, not a person (and no,
corporations are also not people!), so being tracked has completely
different implications.  The FSFE as a legal entity is not entitled to
privacy or any other human rights so our information is mostly public
anyway (and should be).  What we should not do is tell other people to
sign up for Facebook.  That is why it is important for us to always
clearly state (on Facebook or whichever privacy-troubled platform) that
we do not support the platform and that people should not sign up for
it.  That way, we make clear that our presence on the platform is not a
stamp of approval.  We also need to make sure there is never any content
from us on those platforms before it is also on other platforms so
people always have a privacy respecting source available.

If we meet those conditions, I think we can gain from being on platforms
like Facebook because we can reach people that we would not reach
otherwise and hopefully, in the process, they will become more aware of
Facebook's privacy issues.  I think we should have a voice of dissent on
a platform we find problematic instead of leaving it to voices of
approval.  Or to put it another way:  If you want to warn people about
the dangers of X, you need to talk to people who use X (and X can be
anything: non-free software, drugs, Facebook, Twitter, etc.).

I didn't arrive at this position lightly:  I want the FSFE to be a
beacon of freedom and privacy.  I want the FSFE to always bahave in
accordance with its principles.  For a long time, that made me think we
should not be on platforms like Facebook, but then I realized the
different implications if we as an organization are on Facebook or we as
a community:  I think the former can be done in accordance with our
principles, but not the latter.

Happy hacking!
Florian
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Re: Mozilla: "We’re taking a break from Facebook"

[Adonay Felipe Nogueira]

> The FSFE is also present on LinkedIn, as far as I remember, and I regard that 
> service in a similarly negative way, in the sense that it is effectively a 
> data-mining exercise for some division of Microsoft.

Speaking of LinkedIn, I noticed that it doesn't federate also.

Morever, some months ago I saw somewhere that ActivityPub could also be
used to function like a federated job employement network, so I assume
that if this would be true, people who use an ActivityPub account could
also apply to the job positions posted through ActivityPub.

Personally, I tend to avoid registering at thousands of websites, I like
to do some exercise by walking or running to the job employement centers
that the government maintains --- because these already have my
"registry" anyways, my "worker card" --- or those in which I don't have
to touch a web form nor an app in order to join the job opennings. In
all cases I am also OK if I have to send an email, but only if I can do
so using the standard email procedures, not some web form. It is true
however that the country were I live (Brazil) seens to be neglecting my
potential as a citizen who cares for the freedoms of the software that
the very end/novice user uses.

As Stallman once said, we don't have to go to the street make faces in
order to get a living, we can do other stuff not related to technology,
and this is also a thing I'm doing, I'm picking up any open position
which doesn't require prior experience.
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Re: Mozilla: "We’re taking a break from Facebook"

[Paul Boddie]

On Friday 23. March 2018 14.40.58 Max Mehl wrote:
> 
> That said, I think the only purpose the FSFE's FB page currently serves
> is that 1. the name is taken to prevent hoaxers from imitating an
> "official" page, and 2. for people to find us if they – for whatever
> crazy reason – try to search us on this platform. Certainly, deleting
> the page won't educate anyone on this platform therefore.

If the only reason is to hold the name, maybe this policy should be clearly 
stated and absolutely no interaction performed via Facebook.

However, I personally think that by even having a presence the organisation 
legitimises Facebook. One could compare it to a country having an embassy in a 
country it doesn't or shouldn't recognise, although there are things like 
unofficial embassies and cooperation between nations with regards to helping 
out citizens who decided (against all advice) to go to such places.

One thing I also wonder about is how the FSFE can prevent hoaxers when, like 
the domain name system but without even the limited transparency around that, 
people could probably just create presences like "TheRealFSFE", 
"OfficialFSFE", "FSFE_Official" and so on.

Also, what terms and conditions apply to the FSFE when having a presence on 
Facebook? If people "like" FSFE on Facebook, what effect does that have on 
those people's privacy?

> Facebook by no means is used as a primary or official communication
> channel. If you take a look at the FSFE's presence on GnuSocial or
> Diaspora you will see what our preferences are ;)

The FSFE is also present on LinkedIn, as far as I remember, and I regard that 
service in a similarly negative way, in the sense that it is effectively a 
data-mining exercise for some division of Microsoft.

Paul
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Re: Mozilla: "We’re taking a break from Facebook"

[bruno]

Jonke Suhr  ha scritto:


[...]

(Non-tracked link to the source:
https://web.archive.org/web/20180323091845/https://de-de.facebook.com/mozilla/posts/10156139176287381)

What do you guys think?


Nice move, I'd appreciate FSFE explicitely "pausing" its Facebook  
activity. At the same time the Diaspora and Quitter pages could be  
suggested as alternatives.

This "pause" might help some users in understanding that:
1) giving oneself's privacy away will probably deny privacy to one's friends;
2) everyone can be manipulated, one should apply some skepticism to  
stuff coming from "the internet"

3) there are better platforms out there.
Awareness of 1) and 2) can improve society.

https://diasp.eu/u/fsfe
https://quitter.no/fsfe

Another free social platform is https://movim.eu

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Re: Mozilla: "We’re taking a break from Facebook"

[Adonay Felipe Nogueira]

> irregardless of the split in our community between privacy pragmatists
> and privacy absolutists, I think we should take note of this step
> Mozilla has taken, as I believe FSFE still has a Facebook page (last
> active on September 21st as far as I can ascertain).

I would also like to note that the general problem in regards to social
networks and technology is often caused by a break in "federation" or by
players who don't federate from the start. For references see the bottom
of the page in [1].

Back in 2015 I started to use Diaspora, but not spreading it still. In
2017 I read the JS Trap article in GNU.org, and since then I've been
trying to find some time over my turbulent Bachelor's degree to submit
"JS-liberating" patches to major projects such as Diaspora. Even in that
year I did notice the absense on the formal W3C/RFC/whatever document
that standardizes Diaspora's network --- yes, they do have that in
*their* website, but not in some known standards body.

However, in the beginning of 2018 I became aware of Meltdown, Spectre
and the problems these two cause to website guests/visitors/users ([2]),
and was also informed of the W3C-recommend standard for social networks
called ActivityPub, since then I left Diaspora, went to
ActivityPub-compatible instance, and I'm still trying to find some free
time to make patches so that ActivityPub-based websites work without
client-side JavaScript, or so that they at least make their JS compliant
with GNU LibreJS markup ([3]).

Finally, in regards to federation and standards, it would be a good idea
to have laws that compel the players that deal with internet
communications and social networks to keep following the federation
standards strictly, since according to [4] --- which is mentioned in [1]
--- just publishing the standards and considering the fact that the
players follow these now, doesn't mean they will continue following in
the future, since they might be doing embrace, extend and extinguish
(EEE), which seems to be the case for XMPP non-compliants such as
WhatsApp ([1]).

[1] .

[2] .

[3] I was made aware that there is an upcoming version of LibreJS that
will make the markup much easier to respect/implement/follow, because it
will deprecate some context sensitive stuff in order to favor only a
single form of markup --- even for scripts which come from third-parties
--- but optionally allowing interested JavaScript developers to easily
propose additions to the default hash-based whitelist of LibreJS.

[4]
. Under
CC BY-SA 3.0 US, according to
.

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Re: Mozilla: "We’re taking a break from Facebook"

[psutton]

On 23/03/18 09:49, Jonke Suhr wrote:
> Am 23.03.2018 um 10:30 schrieb psutton:
>> How about joining Diaspora,   the community would really like more big
>> players like Mozilla on board so that you can engage  in the community
>> and that also encourags others to come to Diaspora.
> FSFE is already on Diaspora, I recommend everyone to follow :)
>
> https://diasp.eu/u/fsfe


Sorry i was suggesting Mozilla join.

Paul
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Re: Mozilla: "We’re taking a break from Facebook"

[Jonke Suhr]

Am 23.03.2018 um 10:30 schrieb psutton:
> How about joining Diaspora,   the community would really like more big
> players like Mozilla on board so that you can engage  in the community
> and that also encourags others to come to Diaspora.

FSFE is already on Diaspora, I recommend everyone to follow :)

https://diasp.eu/u/fsfe
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Re: Mozilla: "We’re taking a break from Facebook"

[Stefan Umit Uygur]

Totally agree
for instance, I am not on nor even been on facebook

On Fri, Mar 23, 2018 at 9:40 AM, Daniel Pocock  wrote:

>
>
> On 23/03/18 10:32, David Gerard wrote:
> > The problem with Facebook is that it's the worst bar in town and the
> > bouncers are horrible, but it's also the only one where you can find
> > everyone.
> >
>
> Please don't spread myths
>
> You won't find everyone on facebook, that is a fact
>
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Re: Mozilla: "We’re taking a break from Facebook"

[psutton]

Hi

How about joining Diaspora,   the community would really like more big
players like Mozilla on board so that you can engage  in the community
and that also encourags others to come to Diaspora.

https://diasporafoundation.org/

https://joindiaspora.com/i/29e3c17d2ef2   - join link for the
joindiaspora pod,   but you can join other  pods or set your own up.

welcome to join


Interestingly since the news about FB / CA  daspora and I think other
alternatives appear to have seen an increase in new members or certainly
people looking for alternatives.

Paul


On 23/03/18 09:20, Jonke Suhr wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> irregardless of the split in our community between privacy pragmatists
> and privacy absolutists, I think we should take note of this step
> Mozilla has taken, as I believe FSFE still has a Facebook page (last
> active on September 21st as far as I can ascertain).
>
>> Dear global community we’ve had the opportunity to interact with over the 
>> past several years here:
>>
>> We’re taking a break from Facebook.
>>
>> At Mozilla we champion platforms and technologies that are good for the web 
>> and good for the people that use it.
>> We stand up for transparency and user control because they make the web 
>> healthier for us all.
>>
>> That’s why we are pressing pause on any Facebook activity. Mark Zuckerberg 
>> has just promised to improve Facebook’s settings and make them more 
>> protective, which is a start! Please do that! But we can’t help but think 
>> we’ve heard it before, so we’re still going to wait and see what 
>> materializes before we resume spending our ad dollars or time here.
>>
>> IN THE MEANTIME:
>> If you need support for Firefox or want to tweet at us, you can find us 
>> here: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/
>> and https://twitter.com/mozilla
> (Non-tracked link to the source:
> https://web.archive.org/web/20180323091845/https://de-de.facebook.com/mozilla/posts/10156139176287381)
>
> What do you guys think?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jonke
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-- 
Paul Sutton
http://www.zleap.net

Torbay Tech Jam - 2nd Saturday of the Month at Paignton Library

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