Re: #django community etiquette observations

[sierramtns]

im really surprised by:

1. the attitude of "hey, i got my what i wanted, i dont mind some
abuse along with it." what? honestly? i agree with the "be helpful, be
nice, or be quiet" and dont think its fair to bend the rules.

2. tap-dancing around Magus- because he's the most helpful
if Magus- is, in fact, the best resource in the channel (i dont
dispute that he is), i would think he would hold himself or be held to
a higher standard as a pillar of the community.



On Feb 4, 12:05 am, Kenneth Gonsalves  wrote:
> On Wednesday 04 Feb 2009 11:31:28 am Russell Keith-Magee wrote:
>
> > > there was a long flame war about this on the developer list some time
> > > back. The general consensus is that Magus- is perhaps the most valuable
> > > person on the channel and most of us do not mind being 'insulted' as long
> > > as he solves our problems - and he does. In fact someone did a grep on
> > > 'Magus-' + 'thank you' and found a zillion matches.
>
> > Kenneth - Please be _very_ careful about representing "the general
> > consensus" of Django Developers. Just because a discussion happens on
> > Django Developers, doesn't mean it's "official Django policy". You're
> > not a core developer
>
> sorry - I did not really mean that the developers had a consensus - if what I
> said implied that, it is wrong. Perhaps I could change that to: 'Most of the
> people on the thread were of the opinion I expressed above'. I am neither a
> core developer nor a developer at all as far as django is concerned - so any
> opinion I have expressed is purely my personal opinion and my personal
> reading of the discussion.
>
> --
> regards
> KGhttp://lawgon.livejournal.com
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Re: #django community etiquette observations

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Wednesday 04 Feb 2009 11:31:28 am Russell Keith-Magee wrote:
> > there was a long flame war about this on the developer list some time
> > back. The general consensus is that Magus- is perhaps the most valuable
> > person on the channel and most of us do not mind being 'insulted' as long
> > as he solves our problems - and he does. In fact someone did a grep on
> > 'Magus-' + 'thank you' and found a zillion matches.
>
> Kenneth - Please be _very_ careful about representing "the general
> consensus" of Django Developers. Just because a discussion happens on
> Django Developers, doesn't mean it's "official Django policy". You're
> not a core developer

sorry - I did not really mean that the developers had a consensus - if what I 
said implied that, it is wrong. Perhaps I could change that to: 'Most of the 
people on the thread were of the opinion I expressed above'. I am neither a 
core developer nor a developer at all as far as django is concerned - so any 
opinion I have expressed is purely my personal opinion and my personal 
reading of the discussion.

-- 
regards
KG
http://lawgon.livejournal.com

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Re: #django community etiquette observations

[Russell Keith-Magee]

On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves
 wrote:
>
> On Wednesday 04 Feb 2009 1:57:46 am sierramtns wrote:
>> there are certainly other people acting as such in varying degrees,
>> and i only cite Magus- because of the twitter feed and django log
>> entry being available to exemplify this pattern of behavior (god help
>> me if ive started a flamewar.)
>
> there was a long flame war about this on the developer list some time back.
> The general consensus is that Magus- is perhaps the most valuable person on
> the channel and most of us do not mind being 'insulted' as long as he solves
> our problems - and he does. In fact someone did a grep on 'Magus-' + 'thank
> you' and found a zillion matches.

Kenneth - Please be _very_ careful about representing "the general
consensus" of Django Developers. Just because a discussion happens on
Django Developers, doesn't mean it's "official Django policy". You're
not a core developer, and if you go back to the discussion you
referenced, the only core developers that weighed in were Jacob,
James, and myself. Jacob specifically avoided the issue of Magus's
behaviour in particular. James mentioned that Magus has been quite
helpful to many people. I only responded to refute your specific
suggestion that any behavior, however rude, was somehow acceptable. It
isn't.

I will repeat what Jacob said the last time this came up. It is as
true now as it was then, and it's a much better representation of "the
general consensus" of the Django core developers. Quoting:

"""
Two things:

* Basic decorum is something that we've always treasured in the Django
community. This applies to the IRC channel. If you can't be polite
here, there, or anywhere in our community please try to keep your
mouth shut.

I don't particularly care to argue about whether Magus crossed any
lines or not; I trust him to not take this callout *too* personally,
and I trust that we can all try to strike a kinder tone in IRC in the
future.

* Basic decorum *also* dictates that if you have a personal problem
with someone you try to solve it with them, privately.

Talking to me or another maintainer -- again, privately -- is the second step.

Calling someone else out publically is a move of last resort, and one
that should be avoided at all costs.
"""

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)

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Re: #django community etiquette observations

[alex.gay...@gmail.com]

On Feb 4, 12:37 am, Israel Dacanay Canasa  wrote:
> Yup, just don't mind getting insulted. Since Magus is helping a lot of
> people, the least others can do in return is to make him feel good.
>
> ^:)^ to Magus
>
> On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 1:16 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves 
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Wednesday 04 Feb 2009 1:57:46 am sierramtns wrote:
> > > there are certainly other people acting as such in varying degrees,
> > > and i only cite Magus- because of the twitter feed and django log
> > > entry being available to exemplify this pattern of behavior (god help
> > > me if ive started a flamewar.)
>
> > there was a long flame war about this on the developer list some time back.
> > The general consensus is that Magus- is perhaps the most valuable person on
> > the channel and most of us do not mind being 'insulted' as long as he
> > solves
> > our problems - and he does. In fact someone did a grep on 'Magus-' + 'thank
> > you' and found a zillion matches.
>
> > --
> > regards
> > KG
> >http://lawgon.livejournal.com

I'd like to remind everyone of the more important point of that thread
(IMO), a public forum is a really bad way to handle personal issues,
especially with OPs.  If you have an issue, email someone like Jacob.
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Re: #django community etiquette observations

[Israel Dacanay Canasa]

Yup, just don't mind getting insulted. Since Magus is helping a lot of
people, the least others can do in return is to make him feel good.

^:)^ to Magus


On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 1:16 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:

>
> On Wednesday 04 Feb 2009 1:57:46 am sierramtns wrote:
> > there are certainly other people acting as such in varying degrees,
> > and i only cite Magus- because of the twitter feed and django log
> > entry being available to exemplify this pattern of behavior (god help
> > me if ive started a flamewar.)
>
> there was a long flame war about this on the developer list some time back.
> The general consensus is that Magus- is perhaps the most valuable person on
> the channel and most of us do not mind being 'insulted' as long as he
> solves
> our problems - and he does. In fact someone did a grep on 'Magus-' + 'thank
> you' and found a zillion matches.
>
> --
> regards
> KG
> http://lawgon.livejournal.com
>
> >
>

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Re: #django community etiquette observations

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Wednesday 04 Feb 2009 1:57:46 am sierramtns wrote:
> there are certainly other people acting as such in varying degrees,
> and i only cite Magus- because of the twitter feed and django log
> entry being available to exemplify this pattern of behavior (god help
> me if ive started a flamewar.)

there was a long flame war about this on the developer list some time back. 
The general consensus is that Magus- is perhaps the most valuable person on 
the channel and most of us do not mind being 'insulted' as long as he solves 
our problems - and he does. In fact someone did a grep on 'Magus-' + 'thank 
you' and found a zillion matches.

-- 
regards
KG
http://lawgon.livejournal.com

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#django community etiquette observations

[sierramtns]

ive been an avid django user for about 2 years, using it exclusively
for about 14 months or so, and one of my favorite things about the
framework is the community its brought together. the django community
can take great pride in being helpful, self-perpetuating, open, and
thought to be one of the better communities of its kind on the web.

one of the best facets of this community (skipping all the fantastic
blogs and groups and self-driven face-to-face meetups) is the #django
room on freenode. for quite some time, its been a wonderful resource,
stocked with hundreds of users (albeit most idle), some of whom are
incredibly helpful at all hours of the day, while asking nothing in
return. amazing! honestly, it really is something special.

but.

to all you absurdly helpful folks in #django who feel it necessary to
cop a 'tude with an answer, dont forget: at one point, you had
questions, and were grateful when you got a clear, thought-out answer
from someone who didn't *have* to help you. however insightful and
generous they may be, i see channel participants forget that its not
ok to be a jerk while answering questions. its disappointing to see
discussions between users where an answer cant be dealt without
arrogance. im going to be really unfair for a moment and call Magus-
on this:

i stumbled upon a twitter feed someone set up that looks to log each
instance of him saying "obviously" or "of course". this is something
some co-workers and i have noticed and had a good laugh over, but
almost 300 instances since jan 21? seriously? is there an irc client
that appends sass to whatever your type?

you can see the twitter feed http://twitter.com/obviouslymagus .

and this little gem from yesterday (02/02/09) seems particularly
unbecoming of the community:

from http://botland.oebfare.com/logger/django/2009/2/2/29/:

22:35   myself12
Magus-: right now I have: "if request.method == 'POST':", "form =
EventForm(request.POST, instance=query_list)", "form.save()". As far
as I understand. this takes the submitted form and saves it, right?
22:35   Magus-
duh
22:36   myself12
Magus-: sorry, http://dpaste.com/115896/
22:36   Magus-
and you're pasting this why?
22:37   myself12
Magus-: to hope you might help me clarify things
22:37   Magus-
clarify what?
22:37   myself12
Magus-: I want to know how I have to change this, so I will save a new
object, instead of saving to the old one
22:37   Magus-
you stop giving it the instance, duh
22:38   myself12
so "form = EventForm(request.POST)" is enough?
22:38   Magus-
to be add instead of edit? of course
22:38   Magus-
as documented
22:39   myself12
Magus-: ok, great, will try it :)
22:39   racter
why "duh" magus- ? if a certain solution isn't apparent to myself12
then it's obviously not a "duh" situation for them
22:39   Magus-
racter: zip it
22:39   racter
i don't understand you man

the whole conversation stinks, and telling someone to "zip it" for
reminding manners? really? i mean.. really?? thats just being a bully.
if someone was a pro tech support agent, this discussion would result
in termination. being in an irc channel voluntarily instead of on the
phone w/ a customer isnt carte blanche to be an ass.

there are certainly other people acting as such in varying degrees,
and i only cite Magus- because of the twitter feed and django log
entry being available to exemplify this pattern of behavior (god help
me if ive started a flamewar.)

granted that django has some of the most fantastic documentation. its
incredibly thorough, and saves a lot of headaches, and for that people
deserve to be reminded and even obliged. but, dont lose sight of the
fact that not everyone reads every line, nor does every reader
immediately understand each concept presented and covered by django at
first, second, third, fouth, fifth, or tenth glance. sometimes it
takes a real skull-pounding and a few attempts.

two points and them im done:
1. patience is a virtue, and that axiom applies to *both* sides of the
fence.
2. no one wants to or deserves to feel degraded when playing with or
learning to use their shiny new toy, for any reason, period. take
pride in helping them, not in that you know more than them.

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