Re: [slightly OT] Web deployment certification

[Russell Keith-Magee]

On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 8:23 PM, Russell Keith-Magee
 wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves
>  wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I work with a Government department with a mandate to spread FOSS/OSS in both
>> formal and non-formal education sector. We are planning to introduce a web
>> deployment certification. A person may be a specialist in say RDBMS or 
>> design,
>> but if he is able to deploy his applications (especially open source) - he
>> stands a much better chance of being recruited or getting work. I had 
>> proposed
>> testing in a hands on session the ability to:
>>
>> 1. Set up virtual host with apache/nginx/lighty
>> 2. Set up and RDBMS
>> 3. Use a 'P' language for business logic
>> 4. Build a front end CSS/HTML/JS
>> 5. Store the code in a repository
>> 6. Set up a bugtracking system
>> 7. Demonstrate basic knowledge of the HTTP protocol
>>
>> Programming ability per se will not be tested. I am getting a lot of flak
>> saying: 'this is not what industry wants'. I would appreciate any feedback
>> from django-users (we are also, in the next phase, contemplating a django
>> certification). I know this is somewhat OT, but after all it *is* in the 
>> cause
>> of promoting Open Source so please forgive me.
>
> Forgive my bluntness, but if "industry wants" a programming ability
> requirement, then give it to them.
>
> Software accreditation and developer certification programs have
> exactly nothing to do with the production of good code - they exist to
> absolve HR managers with no domain knowledge of the blame for hiring
> the wrong person when a project goes badly. When an employee turns out
> to be useless, they can deflect the blame at someone else - either the
> employee lied about their accreditation, or the accrediting
> organization accredited someone they shouldn't have. Either way, it's
> not the HR managers fault, so they remain happy and employed.
>
> If "industry wants" a programming ability requirement, it's because
> the HR manager fears that they will be fired because they hired
> someone who can't code their way out of a wet paper bag. You can argue
> about to the best way to certify against that outcome, but you can't
> argue with the underlying issue. If you try to avoid the issue, then
> you're going to end up with a certification that industry doesn't
> trust, which will render it worthless.

... and as soon as I press send, I realize I forgot the third option -
prove to them why a programming requirement isn't required at all.
e.g., Make an argument that someone deploying code doesn't need to
know how to write code, and if they want a code writing certification,
that's a separate issue.

This doesn't change my argument, though. Developing a certification
has nothing to do with what you want, or what we (the Django
community) wamt. It's entirely about making your audience comfortable
that their employees will be able to do what your certification says
they will be able to do.

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)

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Re: [slightly OT] Web deployment certification

[Russell Keith-Magee]

On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves
 wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I work with a Government department with a mandate to spread FOSS/OSS in both
> formal and non-formal education sector. We are planning to introduce a web
> deployment certification. A person may be a specialist in say RDBMS or design,
> but if he is able to deploy his applications (especially open source) - he
> stands a much better chance of being recruited or getting work. I had proposed
> testing in a hands on session the ability to:
>
> 1. Set up virtual host with apache/nginx/lighty
> 2. Set up and RDBMS
> 3. Use a 'P' language for business logic
> 4. Build a front end CSS/HTML/JS
> 5. Store the code in a repository
> 6. Set up a bugtracking system
> 7. Demonstrate basic knowledge of the HTTP protocol
>
> Programming ability per se will not be tested. I am getting a lot of flak
> saying: 'this is not what industry wants'. I would appreciate any feedback
> from django-users (we are also, in the next phase, contemplating a django
> certification). I know this is somewhat OT, but after all it *is* in the cause
> of promoting Open Source so please forgive me.

Forgive my bluntness, but if "industry wants" a programming ability
requirement, then give it to them.

Software accreditation and developer certification programs have
exactly nothing to do with the production of good code - they exist to
absolve HR managers with no domain knowledge of the blame for hiring
the wrong person when a project goes badly. When an employee turns out
to be useless, they can deflect the blame at someone else - either the
employee lied about their accreditation, or the accrediting
organization accredited someone they shouldn't have. Either way, it's
not the HR managers fault, so they remain happy and employed.

If "industry wants" a programming ability requirement, it's because
the HR manager fears that they will be fired because they hired
someone who can't code their way out of a wet paper bag. You can argue
about to the best way to certify against that outcome, but you can't
argue with the underlying issue. If you try to avoid the issue, then
you're going to end up with a certification that industry doesn't
trust, which will render it worthless.

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)

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Re: [slightly OT] Web deployment certification

[Alex Gaynor]

On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 11:51 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves
wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> I work with a Government department with a mandate to spread FOSS/OSS in
> both
> formal and non-formal education sector. We are planning to introduce a web
> deployment certification. A person may be a specialist in say RDBMS or
> design,
> but if he is able to deploy his applications (especially open source) - he
> stands a much better chance of being recruited or getting work. I had
> proposed
> testing in a hands on session the ability to:
>
> 1. Set up virtual host with apache/nginx/lighty
> 2. Set up and RDBMS
> 3. Use a 'P' language for business logic
> 4. Build a front end CSS/HTML/JS
> 5. Store the code in a repository
> 6. Set up a bugtracking system
> 7. Demonstrate basic knowledge of the HTTP protocol
>
> Programming ability per se will not be tested. I am getting a lot of flak
> saying: 'this is not what industry wants'. I would appreciate any feedback
> from django-users (we are also, in the next phase, contemplating a django
> certification). I know this is somewhat OT, but after all it *is* in the
> cause
> of promoting Open Source so please forgive me.
>
> --
> regards
> kg
> http://lawgon.livejournal.com
>
> >
>
I'm unclear on what exactly it is that the certificate is supposed to say
about me, and I feel it may be a little too broad.  A specific concern would
be I don't think it's a particularly good thing to mix concerns about design
vs. development, they really draw on entirely seperate skills even if the
tools are a little similar.

Alex

-- 
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to
say it." --Voltaire
"The people's good is the highest law."--Cicero

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[slightly OT] Web deployment certification

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

Hi,

I work with a Government department with a mandate to spread FOSS/OSS in both 
formal and non-formal education sector. We are planning to introduce a web 
deployment certification. A person may be a specialist in say RDBMS or design, 
but if he is able to deploy his applications (especially open source) - he 
stands a much better chance of being recruited or getting work. I had proposed 
testing in a hands on session the ability to:

1. Set up virtual host with apache/nginx/lighty
2. Set up and RDBMS
3. Use a 'P' language for business logic
4. Build a front end CSS/HTML/JS
5. Store the code in a repository
6. Set up a bugtracking system
7. Demonstrate basic knowledge of the HTTP protocol

Programming ability per se will not be tested. I am getting a lot of flak 
saying: 'this is not what industry wants'. I would appreciate any feedback 
from django-users (we are also, in the next phase, contemplating a django 
certification). I know this is somewhat OT, but after all it *is* in the cause 
of promoting Open Source so please forgive me.
 
-- 
regards
kg
http://lawgon.livejournal.com

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