Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)]

Sorry for the long delays on this adoption call.

From the feedback, it appears there is some support, but also some concerns and 
objections. There is some good amount of feedback which needs to be taken into 
consideration before the draft can be adopted.

When making the determination on the support for the draft, we looked at the 
following aspects:

  1.  Is there interest from the working group for taking up this work.
  2.  Is the interest mostly from the authors or the broader community?
  3.  Are there any major concerns/objections for adopting this work?

We reviewed this feedback with our AD.

Hope this helps. We think, couple of revisions can resolve these concerns. We 
appreciate all the efforts from the authors.


Regards
Sri



From: dmm  on behalf of Satoru Matsushima 

Date: Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 2:41 AM
To: dmm 
Cc: "draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolut...@ietf.org" 

Subject: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - 
draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

Dear DMMers,

This email starts a two-weeks DMM WG adoption poll (2) for ""Mobile User Plane 
Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution/

Please review the draft and post any comments on this mail thread prior to 
Friday, November 3rd, 2023.

Regards,
Sri, Satoru

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Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[Satoru Matsushima]

Hi all, thanks for the discussions and comments. Please find the chair's
review on the WG adoption poll (2) from chair's slides for the yesterday
DMM WG meeting:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/118/materials/slides-118-dmm-chairs-slides

Cheers,
--satoru



On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 8:57 PM Kaippallimalil John <
john.kaippallima...@futurewei.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
>
>
> I don’t object to the adoption of this work, but the focus of the draft
> should be changed to address details of realizing “ANUP”.
>
> That would be necessary for a useful RFC down the line, and not what 3GPP
> should (or should not) do.
>
>
>
> The current draft focus is on advocating why 3GPP should do something:
>
> (i.e., “If the ideas in this document are deemed reasonable, feasible and 
> desired among these  parties, they can then be brought to 3GPP for further 
> discussions.”.)
>
> This goal is perhaps better accomplished with a discussion paper in 3GPP 
> SA2/SA1, rather than an IETF RFC that says what is better to do in 3GPP.
>
>
>
> On the other hand, more information on realizing ANUP in “wireline”/IP and 
> mobility aspects should be provided.
>
> For example, aspects on addressing, mobility, performance, measurement, 
> manageability of entities and services, scalability, etc.
>
> I would note that 3GPP only defines AN and UPF functions, while this draft 
> can add value by describing how to realize an N x M AN and UPF instances 
> behaving as a single manageable “ANUP” entity.
>
> (and assuming/based on already defined 3GPP CP session and mobility 
> functionality)
>
> Regards,
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* dmm  *On Behalf Of * Satoru Matsushima
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 19, 2023 4:41 AM
> *To:* dmm 
> *Cc:* draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolut...@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane
> Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06
>
>
>
> Dear DMMers,
>
>
>
> This email starts a two-weeks DMM WG adoption poll (2) for ""Mobile User
> Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06.
>
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution/
>
>
>
> Please review the draft and post any comments on this mail thread prior to
> Friday, November 3rd, 2023.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sri, Satoru
>
>
>
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Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[Kaippallimalil John]

Hello,

I don't object to the adoption of this work, but the focus of the draft should 
be changed to address details of realizing "ANUP".
That would be necessary for a useful RFC down the line, and not what 3GPP 
should (or should not) do.


The current draft focus is on advocating why 3GPP should do something:

(i.e., "If the ideas in this document are deemed reasonable, feasible and 
desired among these  parties, they can then be brought to 3GPP for further 
discussions.".)

This goal is perhaps better accomplished with a discussion paper in 3GPP 
SA2/SA1, rather than an IETF RFC that says what is better to do in 3GPP.



On the other hand, more information on realizing ANUP in "wireline"/IP and 
mobility aspects should be provided.

For example, aspects on addressing, mobility, performance, measurement, 
manageability of entities and services, scalability, etc.

I would note that 3GPP only defines AN and UPF functions, while this draft can 
add value by describing how to realize an N x M AN and UPF instances behaving 
as a single manageable "ANUP" entity.

(and assuming/based on already defined 3GPP CP session and mobility 
functionality)

Regards,
John


From: dmm  On Behalf Of Satoru Matsushima
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2023 4:41 AM
To: dmm 
Cc: draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolut...@ietf.org
Subject: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - 
draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

Dear DMMers,

This email starts a two-weeks DMM WG adoption poll (2) for ""Mobile User Plane 
Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution/

Please review the draft and post any comments on this mail thread prior to 
Friday, November 3rd, 2023.

Regards,
Sri, Satoru

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Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[Yuya KAWAKAMI]

I respectfully disagree with the Adoption of this draft.

This document is a well organized and very good discussion of the MUP. If this
draft is Jeffery's personal one, I have nothing to say. But if it comes to WG's
Adoption, I need to provide my comment.

I agree that it would be good to combine AN and UPF into one when we pursue
the MUP architecture. There are also distributed UPF architectures for edge
computing, such as the "Distributed Anchor Point" connectivity model in
TS 23.548. This model also ultimately results in an architecture where there
are UPFs connected by short N3 segments to the gNB.

Nevertheless, MNOs are not currently using such a connectivity model and
considering "Session Breakout" connectivity model for edge computing by using
intermediate UPFs such as ULCL. It is necessary to consider the reason and
what is the barrier.

C-Plane for Mobility Handover (6.3) and Paging (6.4) are particularly important
elements in considering them, but this document does not attempt to analyze or
solve the problem and just claims that they are "the same as 3GPP's current
behavior".

You mentioned that this document can be an input from IETF to 3GPP after the
WG adoption, but reviewing this document from 3GPP's point of view, I'm sorry
to say that there is no insight to be gained from this document.

I feel that it is necessary to consider the C-Plane (Satoru's point (1) and (2))
as Katsuhiro says and clarify what has changed in transport network technology
to make this ANUP feasible since the days when the central PSA UPF model had
to be deployed.

Yuya

On 2023/10/19 18:41, Satoru Matsushima wrote:

Dear DMMers,

This email starts a two-weeks DMM WG adoption poll (2) for ""Mobile User Plane 
Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution/ 


Please review the draft and post any comments on this mail thread prior to 
Friday, November 3rd, 2023.

Regards,
Sri, Satoru


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Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang]

Hi Katsuhiro,

Thanks for your clarification. Please see zzh> below.



Juniper Business Use Only
From: dmm  On Behalf Of Horiba, Katsuhiro
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2023 10:07 PM
To: dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - 
draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[External Email. Be cautious of content]

> Katsuhiro, Jeffrey, please clarify what the control plane means here.
> E.g., (1) control plane in mobility management (MM) and session management 
> (SM) in 5G architecture,
> (2) signaling protocols for N1/2 and N4,
> or (3) control plane for IP routing, BGP, etc.,

In the context I'm referring to, the "Control Plane" encompasses (1) control 
plane in Mobility Management (MM) and Session Management (SM) in the 3GPP 
mobile network architecture,
and the act of preserving this information within the (R)AN is what we refer to 
as "Control Plane Convergence."
Within this context, I believe that the genuine value of the ANUP concept 
arises from the state in which the (R)AN(-UP) retains MM and SM data through 
Control Plane Convergence.

Zzh> Looks like in my previous email I misunderstood you 😊 I think we’re on the 
same page here.

Hence, in alignment with Miya's perspective, we believed that limiting 
discussions solely to the User Plane would make collaboration with 3GPP quite 
challenging.

Zzh> I should say that ANUP does not limit the discussion solely to User Plane. 
As mentioned in the draft and another email, integration of AN and UPF in the 
user plane allows for convergence/optimization of control plane (now that there 
is no need to signal the unnecessary N3 tunnel in the targeted use case), and 
the whole proposal is more valuable with the convergence/optimization of 
control plane (otherwise it’s just an implementation choice of eliminating the 
N3 tunnel but still use separate N2/N4 signaling).


However, as David pointed out, it's possible that the IETF Working Group (WG) 
or the IRTF Research Group (RG) may not be the most suitable forums for 
addressing this issue.

Zzh> Indeed, eventually the discussion and potential study/work need to happen 
in 3GPP. This draft is just a starting point for an integrated 
wireless/wireline architecture, coming from people with IETF/wireline 
backgrounds who seek DMM as a venue for discussion before it is brought to 3GPP 
by 3GPP delegates from interested parties.


Lastly, in the context I'm referring to, and as Jeffrey has mentioned, the 
collaboration with 3GPP's Signaling Protocol, as represented by N1, N2, and N4, 
is being discussed in draft-mhkk,
and there is no apparent conflict between these discussions and draft-zzhang.

Zzh> Thanks!
Zzh> Jeffrey

Best Regards,
Katsuhiro Horiba
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Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang]

Hi Sandeep,

Thanks for your comments.

Please note that the ANUP is aimed at the use cases where the current AN and 
UPF are already co-located (which is becoming increasingly common for MEC 
purposes). Even w/o ANUP, mobility needs to be addressed - ANUP does not change 
that and it does not avoid mobility handling.

Whether mobility management and session management can be merged in this 
scenario would be discussed and decided in 3GPP. This document is intended for 
an informational one that documents a proposal from many mobile operator and 
vendor proponents that have both 3GPP/wireless and IETF/wireline background, 
aimed at better integration of wireless and wireline networks. Even if the 
proposal eventually does not get adopted in 3GPP, it is desired for DMM to 
adopt it based on rough consensus as a proposal/base for further study in 3GPP.

Thanks.
Jeffrey



Juniper Business Use Only
From: dmm  On Behalf Of Sandeep Bishnoi (Nokia)
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2023 3:32 PM
To: David Lake ; Miya Kohno 
; Satoru Matsushima 
Cc: dmm ; draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolut...@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - 
draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[External Email. Be cautious of content]

I joined this mailing list recently so I’m not familiar with the full history 
of this draft. Sorry for SPAM in case this has been discussed earlier.

I noticed few fundamental issues with “ANUP”:

  *   Mobility management and session management are fundamentally 2 different 
functions and must not (cannot) be merged

 *   Most mobile use-cases require mobility across eNB/gNB. Even FWA has 
inherent requirements for mobility due to fallback or interrupted LoS with 
mmWave. Same with private wireless as it requires X2 or S1 handovers. LIPA is 
no exception – see below.
 *   Session management is anchored permanently with 4G. 5G allows session 
mobility but not widely used/deployed.

  *   Even if LIPA PDN is enabled on a UE (e.g for local IP access at home or 
office), rest of the PDNs require mobility (walking away from home eNB) so 
merging mobility management and session management is not feasible.
  *   LIPA PDN requires SGW function to be done in the MNO core. There is no 
way to do “local” processing between HeNB and LGW

 *   MNO has to control paging (otherwise major security risk) to activate 
radio link from HeNB so the user plane function does a hair-pin to SGW and 
returns to LGW
 *   Same with 5GC with I-SMF/I-UPF activated

  *   LIPA didn’t become a reality due to limited use-case (local IP access 
only). No major benefit due to widespread use of WiFi access.

 *   Major security issue for service providers. No monetary gain to 
provide such a service

“ANUP” can be considered as a product architecture where HeNB (serving 
Internet, voice, + LIPA) and LGW-U/UPF (LIPA only) are collocated but are 2 
independent functions.

PGW-U/UPF functions for Internet and voice will always reside in MNO network so 
HeNB will handover to eNB/gNB as soon as UE walks away from HeNB.

Unless the focus is on a very specific case of single PDN with no mobility 
(“private MEC” or “satellite to satellite” only), it seems ANUP like function 
is unnecessary at this point and crossing over into 3GPP territory. Proposing 
to merge N1/N2 and N4 signaling will be an overkill to solve a very niche 
use-case.

Sandeep


From: dmm mailto:dmm-boun...@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of 
David Lake
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2023 12:50 AM
To: Miya Kohno mailto:miya.ko...@gmail.com>>; Satoru 
Matsushima mailto:satoru.matsush...@gmail.com>>
Cc: dmm mailto:dmm@ietf.org>>; 
draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolut...@ietf.org<mailto:draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolut...@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - 
draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06


CAUTION: This is an external email. Please be very careful when clicking links 
or opening attachments. See the URL nok.it/ext for additional information.


Miya

“ANUP solely addresses user plane convergence and tries to liaise with 3GPP, 
but I'm afraid this is a half-baked attempt.”

Absolutely agree and there are many aspects of the current 3GPP design which 
are not very ‘IETF-like’ that we should be considering (removal of IMS and 
total separation of the voice/text service from the transport network would be 
the first item I’d consider – then move onto the use of tunnels, then look at 
authentication, then at a truly global-mobile solution… etc.)

So this draft is good but I agree it only really addresses the ‘here-and-now’ 
and we have much in the control plane that needs reworking.

What I think we need in IETF (and it is not in a chartered group such as DMM – 
that scope is known) is a study of the current ‘mobile’ infrastructure with 
reference to how today’s consumers are using it predominantly for Internet 
access (a good thing for IETF and that includ

Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[Bill Gage]

As stated in the abstract, this document does not change the 3GPP 
architecture nor does it propose changes in signalling protocols defined 
by 3GPP. The authors explicitly state that this document describes an 
*implementation* based on existing 3GPP specifications.


The stated goal is to bring this work to 3GPP for further discussions, 
but 3GPP does not deal with implementation-specific matters. If there 
are no new interfaces and no new protocols, then there is nothing for 
3GPP to consider.


For 5G, that ship has already sailed - operators and vendors are already 
deploying solutions so it is unlikely that this document will have any 
effect on 5G networks.


For 6G, it is premature to assume that the 5G functional models and 
protocol stacks will be carried forward into 6G. Nothing in this 
document appears to address issues that other research is attempting to 
resolve.


Personally, I have no objection to this document being "adopted" as a WG 
draft (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wkumari-not-a-draft/), but 
I would have serious objections to further progression towards an RFC. 
If the goal of this document is simply to publicise an implementation, 
there are other venues where it may get more attention (e.g. arXiv, IEEE 
Access).


Cheers ...

/bill
On 2023-10-19 5:41 a.m., Satoru Matsushima wrote:

Dear DMMers,

This email starts a two-weeks DMM WG adoption poll (2) for ""Mobile User 
Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06.


https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution/ 



Please review the draft and post any comments on this mail thread prior 
to Friday, November 3rd, 2023.


Regards,
Sri, Satoru



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Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[Z.W. Yan]

Hi, all,
This draft detailed the evolution of 5G MUP and is a good link between IETF and 
3GPP. I support the adoption. 
As a suggestion, I think the main direction discussed of MUP evolution in this 
draft is the distributed UPF, the security consideration should be discussed 
more, both from the architecture and technologies used in the distributed UPF, 
of course, mainly from the aspect of IETF. Secondly, it’s better to follow the 
logics of the evolution of 3GPP, from 4g, 5g to 6g.



Z.W. Yan
 
From: Satoru Matsushima
Date: 2023-10-19 17:41
To: dmm
CC: draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution
Subject: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - 
draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06
Dear DMMers,

This email starts a two-weeks DMM WG adoption poll (2) for ""Mobile User Plane 
Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution/

Please review the draft and post any comments on this mail thread prior to 
Friday, November 3rd, 2023.

Regards,
Sri, Satoru

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Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[Sandeep Bishnoi (Nokia)]

I joined this mailing list recently so I’m not familiar with the full history 
of this draft. Sorry for SPAM in case this has been discussed earlier.

I noticed few fundamental issues with “ANUP”:

  *   Mobility management and session management are fundamentally 2 different 
functions and must not (cannot) be merged
 *   Most mobile use-cases require mobility across eNB/gNB. Even FWA has 
inherent requirements for mobility due to fallback or interrupted LoS with 
mmWave. Same with private wireless as it requires X2 or S1 handovers. LIPA is 
no exception – see below.
 *   Session management is anchored permanently with 4G. 5G allows session 
mobility but not widely used/deployed.
  *   Even if LIPA PDN is enabled on a UE (e.g for local IP access at home or 
office), rest of the PDNs require mobility (walking away from home eNB) so 
merging mobility management and session management is not feasible.
  *   LIPA PDN requires SGW function to be done in the MNO core. There is no 
way to do “local” processing between HeNB and LGW
 *   MNO has to control paging (otherwise major security risk) to activate 
radio link from HeNB so the user plane function does a hair-pin to SGW and 
returns to LGW
 *   Same with 5GC with I-SMF/I-UPF activated
  *   LIPA didn’t become a reality due to limited use-case (local IP access 
only). No major benefit due to widespread use of WiFi access.
 *   Major security issue for service providers. No monetary gain to 
provide such a service

“ANUP” can be considered as a product architecture where HeNB (serving 
Internet, voice, + LIPA) and LGW-U/UPF (LIPA only) are collocated but are 2 
independent functions.

PGW-U/UPF functions for Internet and voice will always reside in MNO network so 
HeNB will handover to eNB/gNB as soon as UE walks away from HeNB.

Unless the focus is on a very specific case of single PDN with no mobility 
(“private MEC” or “satellite to satellite” only), it seems ANUP like function 
is unnecessary at this point and crossing over into 3GPP territory. Proposing 
to merge N1/N2 and N4 signaling will be an overkill to solve a very niche 
use-case.

Sandeep


From: dmm  On Behalf Of David Lake
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2023 12:50 AM
To: Miya Kohno ; Satoru Matsushima 

Cc: dmm ; draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolut...@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - 
draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06


CAUTION: This is an external email. Please be very careful when clicking links 
or opening attachments. See the URL nok.it/ext for additional information.


Miya

“ANUP solely addresses user plane convergence and tries to liaise with 3GPP, 
but I'm afraid this is a half-baked attempt.”

Absolutely agree and there are many aspects of the current 3GPP design which 
are not very ‘IETF-like’ that we should be considering (removal of IMS and 
total separation of the voice/text service from the transport network would be 
the first item I’d consider – then move onto the use of tunnels, then look at 
authentication, then at a truly global-mobile solution… etc.)

So this draft is good but I agree it only really addresses the ‘here-and-now’ 
and we have much in the control plane that needs reworking.

What I think we need in IETF (and it is not in a chartered group such as DMM – 
that scope is known) is a study of the current ‘mobile’ infrastructure with 
reference to how today’s consumers are using it predominantly for Internet 
access (a good thing for IETF and that includes voice and text which is mostly 
OTT now) and whether the current economic and architectural models fit that use 
case.

Where I struggle is that is probably not an IETF WG or IRTF RG.

David

From: dmm mailto:dmm-boun...@ietf.org>> on behalf of Miya 
Kohno mailto:miya.ko...@gmail.com>>
Date: Friday, 20 October 2023 at 02:02
To: Satoru Matsushima 
mailto:satoru.matsush...@gmail.com>>
Cc: dmm mailto:dmm@ietf.org>>, 
draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolut...@ietf.org<mailto:draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolut...@ietf.org>
 
mailto:draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolut...@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - 
draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06
Hello,

Though this draft is mostly agreeable, drastic improvement also requires the 
control plane work.
In fact, RAN Core convergence has already been discussed.
e.g.
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/10073488
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/10001281

ANUP solely addresses user plane convergence and tries to liaise with 3GPP, but 
I'm afraid this is a half-baked attempt.

The MUP[*] assumes no change to 5GC, and I think IETF DMM should focus on this 
at least for the time being.

Architecture: 
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-mhkk-dmm-srv6mup-architecture-05.html
Motivation: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kohno-dmm-srv6mob-arch-07.html

Cheers,
Miya


On Thu, Oct 19, 2023 at 6:42 PM Satoru Matsushima 
ma

Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[Horiba, Katsuhiro]

> Katsuhiro, Jeffrey, please clarify what the control plane means here.
> E.g., (1) control plane in mobility management (MM) and session
management (SM) in 5G architecture,
> (2) signaling protocols for N1/2 and N4,
> or (3) control plane for IP routing, BGP, etc.,

In the context I'm referring to, the "Control Plane" encompasses (1)
control plane in Mobility Management (MM) and Session Management (SM) in
the 3GPP mobile network architecture,
and the act of preserving this information within the (R)AN is what we
refer to as "Control Plane Convergence."
Within this context, I believe that the genuine value of the ANUP concept
arises from the state in which the (R)AN(-UP) retains MM and SM data
through Control Plane Convergence.

Hence, in alignment with Miya's perspective, we believed that limiting
discussions solely to the User Plane would make collaboration with 3GPP
quite challenging.

However, as David pointed out, it's possible that the IETF Working Group
(WG) or the IRTF Research Group (RG) may not be the most suitable forums
for addressing this issue.

Lastly, in the context I'm referring to, and as Jeffrey has mentioned, the
collaboration with 3GPP's Signaling Protocol, as represented by N1, N2, and
N4, is being discussed in draft-mhkk,
and there is no apparent conflict between these discussions and
draft-zzhang.

Best Regards,
Katsuhiro Horiba
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Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[Keyur Patel]

Support.

On Oct 22, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Jakub Horn (jakuhorn)  wrote:


Sorry wrong alias…….
-j

From: Jakub Horn (jakuhorn) 
Date: Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 8:23 AM
To: Satoru Matsushima , dmm 
Cc: draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolut...@ietf.org 

Subject: Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - 
draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06
Strongly support adoption!

-j

From: Satoru Matsushima 
Date: Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 2:41 AM
To: dmm 
Cc: draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolut...@ietf.org 

Subject: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - 
draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06
Dear DMMers,

This email starts a two-weeks DMM WG adoption poll (2) for ""Mobile User Plane 
Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution/

Please review the draft and post any comments on this mail thread prior to 
Friday, November 3rd, 2023.

Regards,
Sri, Satoru

[EXTERNAL]
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Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[Jakub Horn (jakuhorn)]

Sorry wrong alias…….
-j

From: Jakub Horn (jakuhorn) 
Date: Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 8:23 AM
To: Satoru Matsushima , dmm 
Cc: draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolut...@ietf.org 

Subject: Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - 
draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06
Strongly support adoption!

-j

From: Satoru Matsushima 
Date: Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 2:41 AM
To: dmm 
Cc: draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolut...@ietf.org 

Subject: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - 
draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06
Dear DMMers,

This email starts a two-weeks DMM WG adoption poll (2) for ""Mobile User Plane 
Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution/

Please review the draft and post any comments on this mail thread prior to 
Friday, November 3rd, 2023.

Regards,
Sri, Satoru

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Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[Shay Zadok]

Hi all,
I support the adoption of this document (co-author)
Thanks,
Shay


On Thu, Oct 19, 2023 at 12:41 PM Satoru Matsushima <
satoru.matsush...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear DMMers,
>
> This email starts a two-weeks DMM WG adoption poll (2) for ""Mobile User
> Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06.
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution/
>
> Please review the draft and post any comments on this mail thread prior to
> Friday, November 3rd, 2023.
>
> Regards,
> Sri, Satoru
>
>

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Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[Jakub Horn (jakuhorn)]

Strongly support adoption!

-j

From: Satoru Matsushima 
Date: Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 2:41 AM
To: dmm 
Cc: draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolut...@ietf.org 

Subject: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - 
draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06
Dear DMMers,

This email starts a two-weeks DMM WG adoption poll (2) for ""Mobile User Plane 
Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution/

Please review the draft and post any comments on this mail thread prior to 
Friday, November 3rd, 2023.

Regards,
Sri, Satoru

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Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[Satoru Matsushima]

Katsuhiro, Jeffrey, please clarify what the control plane means here. E.g.,
(1) control plane in mobility management (MM) and session management (SM)
in 5G architecture, (2) signaling protocols for N1/2 and N4, or (3) control
plane for IP routing, BGP, etc.,

Cheers,
--satoru

On Sat, Oct 21, 2023 at 5:28 AM Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang  wrote:

> Hi Katsuhiro,
>
>
>
> Please note that this document does not conflict with draft-mhkk.
>
>
>
> Regarding “Control plane convergence should indeed play a pivotal role”, I
> observe that draft-mhkk is still based on the separate N2/N4 signaling in
> case of 5G, even though the N4 is translated to BGP.
>
>
>
> In fact, while the AN + UPF integration will benefit from integrated
> signaling in 6G, in 5G the integration can be done as an implementation
> choice w/o integrating N2/N4, and it can even use BGP signaling (that was
> defined for draft-mhkk) – as in
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-dmm-anup5g-signaling/.
>
>
>
> Thanks.
> Jeffrey
>
>
>
> Juniper Business Use Only
>
> *From:* dmm  *On Behalf Of * Horiba, Katsuhiro
> *Sent:* Friday, October 20, 2023 10:03 AM
> *To:* dmm@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane
> Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06
>
>
>
> *[External Email. Be cautious of content]*
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
> > ANUP solely addresses user plane convergence and tries to liaise with
> 3GPP,
> > but I'm afraid this is a half-baked attempt.
>
> I concur with this observation, as a co-author of
> draft-mhkk-dmm-srv6mup-architecture-05.
>
> Control plane convergence should indeed play a pivotal role in realizing
> the original DMM concept,
>
> as the control plane information serves as the foundation for route
> advertisements from (R)AN.
>
> The genuine potential of ANUP can be fully realized when both user and
> control plane convergence are achieved.
>
> Is there anyone willing to take the lead in driving control plane
> convergence for (R)AN within the IETF?
>
> Best Regards,
> Katsuhiro Horiba
> ___
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> dmm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm
>
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Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang]

Hi Katsuhiro,

Please note that this document does not conflict with draft-mhkk.

Regarding “Control plane convergence should indeed play a pivotal role”, I 
observe that draft-mhkk is still based on the separate N2/N4 signaling in case 
of 5G, even though the N4 is translated to BGP.

In fact, while the AN + UPF integration will benefit from integrated signaling 
in 6G, in 5G the integration can be done as an implementation choice w/o 
integrating N2/N4, and it can even use BGP signaling (that was defined for 
draft-mhkk) – as in 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-dmm-anup5g-signaling/.

Thanks.
Jeffrey



Juniper Business Use Only
From: dmm  On Behalf Of Horiba, Katsuhiro
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2023 10:03 AM
To: dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - 
draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[External Email. Be cautious of content]

Hello,

> ANUP solely addresses user plane convergence and tries to liaise with 3GPP,
> but I'm afraid this is a half-baked attempt.

I concur with this observation, as a co-author of 
draft-mhkk-dmm-srv6mup-architecture-05.
Control plane convergence should indeed play a pivotal role in realizing the 
original DMM concept,
as the control plane information serves as the foundation for route 
advertisements from (R)AN.
The genuine potential of ANUP can be fully realized when both user and control 
plane convergence are achieved.

Is there anyone willing to take the lead in driving control plane convergence 
for (R)AN within the IETF?

Best Regards,
Katsuhiro Horiba
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Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang]

Hi,

As a co-author, I support the adoption. I am not aware of undisclosed IPRs.

Thanks for David and Miya’s comments. Please see zzh> below for my responses.



Juniper Business Use Only
From: dmm  On Behalf Of David Lake
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2023 3:50 AM
To: Miya Kohno ; Satoru Matsushima 

Cc: dmm ; draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolut...@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - 
draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[External Email. Be cautious of content]

Miya

“ANUP solely addresses user plane convergence and tries to liaise with 3GPP, 
but I'm afraid this is a half-baked attempt.”

Absolutely agree and there are many aspects of the current 3GPP design which 
are not very ‘IETF-like’ that we should be considering (removal of IMS and 
total separation of the voice/text service from the transport network would be 
the first item I’d consider – then move onto the use of tunnels, then look at 
authentication, then at a truly global-mobile solution… etc.)

So this draft is good but I agree it only really addresses the ‘here-and-now’ 
and we have much in the control plane that needs reworking.

Zzh> While the subject is User Plane Evolution, the integration of AN and UPF 
does allow optimization of control plane, and it is discussed in the document. 
That control plane optimization is what makes the ANUP proposal different from 
an implementation choice of putting AN and UPF on the same device but keep 
using N2/N4 signaling.

What I think we need in IETF (and it is not in a chartered group such as DMM – 
that scope is known) is a study of the current ‘mobile’ infrastructure with 
reference to how today’s consumers are using it predominantly for Internet 
access (a good thing for IETF and that includes voice and text which is mostly 
OTT now) and whether the current economic and architectural models fit that use 
case.

Zzh> As the DMM chairs and ADs have said, IETF does not do 3GPP 
standardization. This draft makes it clear that it represents some thoughts 
from IETF/wireline background on the MUP topic, but the actual specification 
work need to happen in 3GPP.
Zzh> We’re not trying to boil the ocean. Additional study can be done, but it’s 
outside the scope of this document.
Zzh> More below.

Where I struggle is that is probably not an IETF WG or IRTF RG.

David

From: dmm mailto:dmm-boun...@ietf.org>> on behalf of Miya 
Kohno mailto:miya.ko...@gmail.com>>
Date: Friday, 20 October 2023 at 02:02
To: Satoru Matsushima 
mailto:satoru.matsush...@gmail.com>>
Cc: dmm mailto:dmm@ietf.org>>, 
draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolut...@ietf.org<mailto:draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolut...@ietf.org>
 
mailto:draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolut...@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - 
draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06
Hello,

Though this draft is mostly agreeable, drastic improvement also requires the 
control plane work.

Zzh> The document does acknowledge that the control plane optimization can be 
enabled by the integration of AN and UPF.

In fact, RAN Core convergence has already been discussed.
e.g.
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/10073488<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/10073488__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!ED_3G1ChCUv5T37QYoEWA9ltsxEHO33FoGjCMxCe6Z8riE_4M5eZ-Wr4dGuJ8Xcf_Ih6XqfEKIyKt2IEbSu8cIfZ2I8jsXg_$>
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/10001281<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/10001281__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!ED_3G1ChCUv5T37QYoEWA9ltsxEHO33FoGjCMxCe6Z8riE_4M5eZ-Wr4dGuJ8Xcf_Ih6XqfEKIyKt2IEbSu8cIfZ2DWmHGPv$>

ANUP solely addresses user plane convergence and tries to liaise with 3GPP, but 
I'm afraid this is a half-baked attempt.

Zzh> We’re not trying to boil the ocean. There are many many RFCs in IETF, each 
addressing a particular problem.
Zzh> As far as AN and UPF integration, I believe this document is complete on 
the idea, though the actual specification work will need to be done in 3GPP.

The MUP[*] assumes no change to 5GC, and I think IETF DMM should focus on this 
at least for the time being.

Architecture: 
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-mhkk-dmm-srv6mup-architecture-05.html<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-mhkk-dmm-srv6mup-architecture-05.html__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!ED_3G1ChCUv5T37QYoEWA9ltsxEHO33FoGjCMxCe6Z8riE_4M5eZ-Wr4dGuJ8Xcf_Ih6XqfEKIyKt2IEbSu8cIfZ2IFyDaV5$>
Motivation: 
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kohno-dmm-srv6mob-arch-07.html<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kohno-dmm-srv6mob-arch-07.html__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!ED_3G1ChCUv5T37QYoEWA9ltsxEHO33FoGjCMxCe6Z8riE_4M5eZ-Wr4dGuJ8Xcf_Ih6XqfEKIyKt2IEbSu8cIfZ2G2zylgJ$>

Zzh> I don’t think the DMM WG is resource-stressed to have a narrow focus. This 
does not conflict with the drafts you’re referring to.
Zzh> Thanks.
Zzh> Jeffrey

Cheers,
Miy

Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[Horiba, Katsuhiro]

Hello,

> ANUP solely addresses user plane convergence and tries to liaise with
3GPP,
> but I'm afraid this is a half-baked attempt.

I concur with this observation, as a co-author of
draft-mhkk-dmm-srv6mup-architecture-05.
Control plane convergence should indeed play a pivotal role in realizing
the original DMM concept,
as the control plane information serves as the foundation for route
advertisements from (R)AN.
The genuine potential of ANUP can be fully realized when both user and
control plane convergence are achieved.

Is there anyone willing to take the lead in driving control plane
convergence for (R)AN within the IETF?

Best Regards,
Katsuhiro Horiba
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Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[David Lake]

Miya

“ANUP solely addresses user plane convergence and tries to liaise with 3GPP, 
but I'm afraid this is a half-baked attempt.”

Absolutely agree and there are many aspects of the current 3GPP design which 
are not very ‘IETF-like’ that we should be considering (removal of IMS and 
total separation of the voice/text service from the transport network would be 
the first item I’d consider – then move onto the use of tunnels, then look at 
authentication, then at a truly global-mobile solution… etc.)

So this draft is good but I agree it only really addresses the ‘here-and-now’ 
and we have much in the control plane that needs reworking.

What I think we need in IETF (and it is not in a chartered group such as DMM – 
that scope is known) is a study of the current ‘mobile’ infrastructure with 
reference to how today’s consumers are using it predominantly for Internet 
access (a good thing for IETF and that includes voice and text which is mostly 
OTT now) and whether the current economic and architectural models fit that use 
case.

Where I struggle is that is probably not an IETF WG or IRTF RG.

David

From: dmm  on behalf of Miya Kohno 
Date: Friday, 20 October 2023 at 02:02
To: Satoru Matsushima 
Cc: dmm , draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolut...@ietf.org 

Subject: Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - 
draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06
Hello,

Though this draft is mostly agreeable, drastic improvement also requires the 
control plane work.
In fact, RAN Core convergence has already been discussed.
e.g.
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/10073488
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/10001281

ANUP solely addresses user plane convergence and tries to liaise with 3GPP, but 
I'm afraid this is a half-baked attempt.

The MUP[*] assumes no change to 5GC, and I think IETF DMM should focus on this 
at least for the time being.

Architecture: 
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-mhkk-dmm-srv6mup-architecture-05.html
Motivation: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kohno-dmm-srv6mob-arch-07.html

Cheers,
Miya


On Thu, Oct 19, 2023 at 6:42 PM Satoru Matsushima 
mailto:satoru.matsush...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Dear DMMers,

This email starts a two-weeks DMM WG adoption poll (2) for ""Mobile User Plane 
Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution/

Please review the draft and post any comments on this mail thread prior to 
Friday, November 3rd, 2023.

Regards,
Sri, Satoru

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Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[Miya Kohno]

Hello,

Though this draft is mostly agreeable, drastic improvement also requires
the control plane work.
In fact, RAN Core convergence has already been discussed.
e.g.
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/10073488
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/10001281

ANUP solely addresses user plane convergence and tries to liaise with 3GPP,
but I'm afraid this is a half-baked attempt.

The MUP[*] assumes no change to 5GC, and I think IETF DMM should focus on
this at least for the time being.

Architecture:
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-mhkk-dmm-srv6mup-architecture-05.html
Motivation:
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kohno-dmm-srv6mob-arch-07.html

Cheers,
Miya


On Thu, Oct 19, 2023 at 6:42 PM Satoru Matsushima <
satoru.matsush...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear DMMers,
>
> This email starts a two-weeks DMM WG adoption poll (2) for ""Mobile User
> Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06.
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution/
>
> Please review the draft and post any comments on this mail thread prior to
> Friday, November 3rd, 2023.
>
> Regards,
> Sri, Satoru
>
> ___
> dmm mailing list
> dmm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm
>
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Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[Tianji Jiang]

Hello, 

 

I support the WG adoption of the draft (as a co-author and also from a tier-1 
MNO).

BR,

 

-Tianji

 



FYI: Here I want to share one more case from 3GPP that would potentially 
benefit from the ANUP-like work in the future.  

 

The FS_5GSAT_Ph3 is a Phase-3 Satellite SID (i.e. project) of the 3GPP SA2 
Release 19. Thanks to the flexible yet complicated 5GC, the SID has one 
architectural assumption to limit the working scope of the transport links 
(i.e., so-called inter-satellite link or ISL) in order to handle the challenges 
with both gNB and 5GC on-board satellite. 

 

When both gNB and 5GC are onboard satellite(s), it implies the criticalness of 
the effective communication between them. The connectivity between both could 
take place on either a satellite or multi-satellites with ISL in between. While 
this is a very challenging issue, the FS_5GSAT_Ph3 has put the assumption in 
that the connectivity as provided by ISL (and Feeder link) is a transport-layer 
problem and 3GPP will not touch it. Further, this SID/project also studies the 
UE-Satellite-UE communication between 2 or more UEs under the coverage of the 
same or different satellites. Evidently, the current gNB+5GC architecture does 
face challenges given the ever-dynamic changing of the underlay 
(satellite-based) constellation network. Fortunately, ANUP-like work could 
better serve the purpose (from both the control-plane and the user-plane 
perspectives).

 

In summary, 
3GPP does have projects that face challenges and might be ultimately & 
optimally addressed by IETF; 
3GPP puts off addressing the issue thanks to the lack of (IETF) tools;
Later (e.g., the 3GPP Rel-20 for 6G in about 12 months), 3GPP will for sure 
revisit the problem. By that moment, if the ANUP-like work has matured 
sufficiently, then it would be a potentially promising option for 3GPP’s 
consideration.
 

Thus, the ANUP-like work is indeed a viable architecture for some hot demands 
right now and for the future.

 

 

 

From: dmm  on behalf of Satoru Matsushima 

Date: Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 2:41 AM
To: dmm 
Cc: 
Subject: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - 
draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

 

Dear DMMers,

 

This email starts a two-weeks DMM WG adoption poll (2) for ""Mobile User Plane 
Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06.

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution/

 

Please review the draft and post any comments on this mail thread prior to 
Friday, November 3rd, 2023.

 

Regards,

Sri, Satoru

 

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Re: [DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO]

Hi all,

As co-author, I support the adoption of this document.

Best regards

Luis

De: Satoru Matsushima 
Enviado el: jueves, 19 de octubre de 2023 11:41
Para: dmm 
CC: draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolut...@ietf.org
Asunto: DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - 
draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

Dear DMMers,

This email starts a two-weeks DMM WG adoption poll (2) for ""Mobile User Plane 
Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution/

Please review the draft and post any comments on this mail thread prior to 
Friday, November 3rd, 2023.

Regards,
Sri, Satoru




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[DMM] DMM WG Adoption Poll (2) for "Mobile User Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06

[Satoru Matsushima]

Dear DMMers,

This email starts a two-weeks DMM WG adoption poll (2) for ""Mobile User
Plane Evolution" - draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution-06.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-dmm-mup-evolution/

Please review the draft and post any comments on this mail thread prior to
Friday, November 3rd, 2023.

Regards,
Sri, Satoru
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