Re: [Dng] This has GOT to be an April Fools joke
On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 04:56:00PM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote: [cut] I personally find hilarious that most of the people out there are still convinced that the systemd-nonsense is just a replacement for sysv-init, while it should be clear by now that it is already becoming a pervasive cancer... Of course, the next step is an authorized and signed kernel distributed only in binary form that can be trusted on Win10 certified hardware. Add to that scenario that some future version of systemd will only work with the signed and trusted binary only kernel... Again. such a binary blob cannot be the Linux kernel with some patches, thanks to the fact that Linux is under GPLv2, so any modified version of it has to be released with the same license, which implies that any user should be able to use, distribute, modify and redistribute the software she receives under that license. This is something for which we should definitely thank RMS and (a probably not so freedom-conscious) Linus Torvalds :) HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] This has GOT to be an April Fools joke
On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 8:51 AM, KatolaZ - kato...@freaknet.org devuan.kn.d697226fdf.katolaz#freaknet@ob.0sg.net wrote: Again. such a binary blob cannot be the Linux kernel with some patches, thanks to the fact that Linux is under GPLv2, so any modified version of it has to be released with the same license, which implies that any user should be able to use, distribute, modify and redistribute the software she receives under that license. Yes, you can get the source, build and redistribute it. But without the proper key you may not be able to sign it in such a way that your system will boot that kernel. Tivo did that, spurring the FSF into action to create GPLv3 to fix that. Linus rejected that fix though, which is why the kernel is using GPLv2. Note that secure boot allows you to set your own trusted keys, so you are fine with that technology for now. This is something for which we should definitely thank RMS and (a probably not so freedom-conscious) Linus Torvalds :) Praise for both is always appropriate:-) BR Karl ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Any plans to provide xinit without the systemd hacks?
On Tue, 31 Mar 2015, Jude Nelson wrote: Hey Isaac, So, I'm looking at startx here: *[1]http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/app/xinit/tree/startx.cpp Where's the offending block of code?* Is it lines 191-200? Looks like it. Looking at the commit history ([2]http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/app/xinit/log/), it doesn't look like startx sees many changes these days.* It should be easy to keep a separate startx script around, if you don't want it starting X on your current tty. I think we should satisfy Isaac's request. I stopped using startx long ago, but I'd be also annoyed to have it starting on the launched tty, clearly recalling I did use startx in place of xinit mostly to not have it polluted. I also cannot understand the sense of this somewhat insane thing http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/app/xinit/tree/cpprules.in And would feel much better to know that we maintain such a script, or even rewrite it. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Claim your power
I wouldn't say systemd developers are evil merely selfish On Tuesday, March 31, 2015, Martin Steigerwald mar...@lichtvoll.de wrote: Hi! As a honest feedback: Currently I do not read much of the threads here. Cause again and again I see language like systemd being like a cancer or infecting people´s systems. It is neither a cancer, nor does it infect systems. What this kind of language mirrors in my eyes is fear of having to put up with systemd at some point. Yet, at any time it has been upstream developers or package maintainers who *decided* to adopt it. Saying that systemd is the source of all evil and we are doomed to it, is in no way helpful for any we want to be without systemd efforts like Devuan. Quite the opposite: It harms the credibility of such projects, cause it gives the impression that those projects just consists of a bunch of people who circulate conspirations theories about systemd *without* doing *anything* about the situation. So here is my plea to stay to what you actually *really* perceive. Stop assuming intentions. Especially stop assuming bad intentions. I think that systemd developers essentially mean it good. They have no evil plans to take over the world or do harm to others. Instead they believe that what they do is worthwhile. Of course its totally and perfectly okay not to agree with that. But please stop assuming intentions that may or may not be there. And for your own benefit, stop using a language which gives your power away. systemd is no cancer and it does not infect systems. If systemd is on your system, either you installed it or upgraded it and your distro package maintainers decided to use it. So systemd developers, if you agree with it or not, had quite some success in convincing others to use and rely on systemd. Yet this is exactly what makes Devuan possible: If you put some effort to it, like for example Jude does without engaging much into the fear based threads so far as I have seen, *it is perfectly possible to have a system without systemd*. And no systemd whatsoever would infect such a system. It just doesn´t have the power to do it. Its a piece of code. It has no power whatsoever on its own. Its no evil critter which just sits next to computer and waits for a chance to take it over. And if you are constructive and positive in your approach, and your systems provides a good alternative, then more may adopt it in the future. Yes, some upstream developers decided to rely on functionality provided by systemd and some depend on it, instead of making it optional. And yes, I see this development with concern. But it is still a decision. No automatic effect. systemd has absolutely and totally *no* power over you. systemd upstream has absolutely and totally *no* power over you. I want to repeat this: Neither systemd nor systemd upstream have any power over you. This is still *free* software. Stop giving your power away. Instead: Claim it. Claim it by using a language that is free of self- defeating patterns like that. A language that puts back the responsibility in your hands. Feel your fear, appreciate it, and by that unlock the power you locked down in it. You have any power in the world to support any efforts to have a systemd free system. So now choose: In what way do you want to spend your energy? Did any of the talk about systemd being a cancer or infecting people´s system do *any* good to change the situation? Did it work? Or do efforts like the one of Jude with vdev any good to change the situation? Does it work? Do more of what works, and instead of repeating patterns that are ineffective in changing your current situation, do something that works as well. Or if you do not want to invest the time, let others do it and be grateful about it instead of filling this list with powerless and self-defeating thought patterns. (That said I think cancer usually is no death sentence either and there are quite powerful approaches in addition or as alternative to academic medicine to deal with it. And I believe that there are ways to help the body to deal with any kind of infection.) Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org javascript:; https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] This has GOT to be an April Fools joke
Am Montag, 30. März 2015, 12:38:37 schrieb Steve Litt: On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 06:25:27 -0500 Nate Bargmann n...@n0nb.us wrote: Is this really happening? Now it appears as though the systemd developers have found a solution to kernel compatibility problems and a way to extend their philosophy of placing all key operating system components in one repository. According to Ivan Gotyaovich, one of the developers working on systemd, the project intends to maintain its own fork of the Linux kernel. There are problems, problems in collaboration, problems with compatibility across versions. Forking the kernel gives us control over these issues, gives us control over almost all key parts of the stack. http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20150330#community Our proximity to April 1 makes me wonder, but still... While there are several quotes in the article from one Ivan Gotyaovich, I don't see any links to said quotes which leaves me a bit skeptical of the veracity of the article. However, the link to GitHub looks very much like a kernel source tree, but I'm not certain that it is an official repository. Before anyone takes this too seriously a bit more research needs to be done as we are very close to the date that an elaborate ruse is plausible, at least for us in the USA. - Nate ROFLMAO, Here's the problem, Nate. With any other software vendor, we'd instantly and doubtlessly assume it an April Fools Joke. But this is systemd we're talking about, and the first time I heard that it had a 2 way link to Gnome I thought This must be an April Fools Joke, but it wasn't. Whether now or later, I fully expect the systemd guys to make their own kernel, and do it with a non-copyleft license. Steve, honestly, I think this is so far off that it is completely unlikely to happen. With a non-copyleft license? Then its not a fork of Linux. And systemd doesn´t run on anything else. And a new kernel? I think it is important to stay with facts, and by all tendency for conspiration theories around systemd, this, in my oppinion, is not a likely outcome to *ever* happen. I think this kind of I think the systemd guys could do anything evil I can dream of kind of speech is nothing what raises the credibility of any we want to be wihout systemd effort. There are enough reasons to avoid systemd, but just this is not one. That said, for a moment I thought WTF about the linux kernel fork thing. I thought, hey, maybe they do even that and maintain systemd related patches on top of vanilla kernel. But I then quickly wondered whether it is an Aprils fools joke on exactly the cost of those who engage with conspiration theories around systemd. I think it is much more effective to stay to facts when dealing with systemd. There are enough facts that for a reason to avoid it. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Claim your power
On Tue 31 March 2015 10:10:28 Martin Steigerwald wrote: So here is my plea to stay to what you actually *really* perceive. Stop assuming intentions. Especially stop assuming bad intentions. I think that systemd developers essentially mean it good. They have no evil plans to take over the world or do harm to others. Instead they believe that what they do is worthwhile. Of course its totally and perfectly okay not to agree with that. While I generally agree with the reasoning of your post, I still feel to point out that it is not only OK but actually PC and mandatory to question the motivations and goals of those who introduce a new idea or concept. Otherwise you're always late and only can react on the fallout (intentionally ambiguous wording). When I read terms like cancer and infect then I don't only relate them to the binary on my system but also to the social aspects of the whole issue that you mentioned (distro maintainers all too cheerfully adopting systemd, lots of fanboys claiming linux never really worked before systemd came along, and generally the idea that freedom would mean some company can take the joint effort of generations of developers into a new direction decided upon by only a dozen of members of systemd cabal¹ ), and I think in that context those terms describe pretty accurately what's happening. Regarding any master plans behind systemd: they are less obvious to some than they are to others, but it seems there been sound arguments that - no matter if intentional or not, planned or not - systemd movement *will* actually *implement* a drastically changed ecosystem that looks much favorable for RH and takes away freedom of general linux community. What's the use in trying to refrain from blaming RH for *intentionally* trying to 'achieve world dominion' when actually what systemd cabal does is evidently establishing exactly that, at least long term? /j ¹ http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [dng] vdev status update
How is the puppy?!? On 31 March 2015 at 06:20, Jude Nelson jud...@gmail.com wrote: Hey everyone, I don't have as much to report this week as I usually do, since I spent half my weekend dealing with a pet medical emergency (TL;DR: ibuprofen is toxic to puppies, and puppies can chew through child-proof lids). I am happy to report that I was able to extract the code for libudev 219 from systemd 219, and get it to compile independently. The resulting library is ABI-compatible with systemd's (no real surprise). My next steps are working through a couple vdev bugs that Scooby helped me find, as well as get libudev to work without udevd. More next week, Jude ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Claim your power
Hi! As a honest feedback: Currently I do not read much of the threads here. Cause again and again I see language like systemd being like a cancer or infecting people´s systems. It is neither a cancer, nor does it infect systems. What this kind of language mirrors in my eyes is fear of having to put up with systemd at some point. Yet, at any time it has been upstream developers or package maintainers who *decided* to adopt it. Saying that systemd is the source of all evil and we are doomed to it, is in no way helpful for any we want to be without systemd efforts like Devuan. Quite the opposite: It harms the credibility of such projects, cause it gives the impression that those projects just consists of a bunch of people who circulate conspirations theories about systemd *without* doing *anything* about the situation. So here is my plea to stay to what you actually *really* perceive. Stop assuming intentions. Especially stop assuming bad intentions. I think that systemd developers essentially mean it good. They have no evil plans to take over the world or do harm to others. Instead they believe that what they do is worthwhile. Of course its totally and perfectly okay not to agree with that. But please stop assuming intentions that may or may not be there. And for your own benefit, stop using a language which gives your power away. systemd is no cancer and it does not infect systems. If systemd is on your system, either you installed it or upgraded it and your distro package maintainers decided to use it. So systemd developers, if you agree with it or not, had quite some success in convincing others to use and rely on systemd. Yet this is exactly what makes Devuan possible: If you put some effort to it, like for example Jude does without engaging much into the fear based threads so far as I have seen, *it is perfectly possible to have a system without systemd*. And no systemd whatsoever would infect such a system. It just doesn´t have the power to do it. Its a piece of code. It has no power whatsoever on its own. Its no evil critter which just sits next to computer and waits for a chance to take it over. And if you are constructive and positive in your approach, and your systems provides a good alternative, then more may adopt it in the future. Yes, some upstream developers decided to rely on functionality provided by systemd and some depend on it, instead of making it optional. And yes, I see this development with concern. But it is still a decision. No automatic effect. systemd has absolutely and totally *no* power over you. systemd upstream has absolutely and totally *no* power over you. I want to repeat this: Neither systemd nor systemd upstream have any power over you. This is still *free* software. Stop giving your power away. Instead: Claim it. Claim it by using a language that is free of self- defeating patterns like that. A language that puts back the responsibility in your hands. Feel your fear, appreciate it, and by that unlock the power you locked down in it. You have any power in the world to support any efforts to have a systemd free system. So now choose: In what way do you want to spend your energy? Did any of the talk about systemd being a cancer or infecting people´s system do *any* good to change the situation? Did it work? Or do efforts like the one of Jude with vdev any good to change the situation? Does it work? Do more of what works, and instead of repeating patterns that are ineffective in changing your current situation, do something that works as well. Or if you do not want to invest the time, let others do it and be grateful about it instead of filling this list with powerless and self-defeating thought patterns. (That said I think cancer usually is no death sentence either and there are quite powerful approaches in addition or as alternative to academic medicine to deal with it. And I believe that there are ways to help the body to deal with any kind of infection.) Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Claim your power
Selfish in what way exactly? Is Systemd closed source? On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 9:53 AM, shraptor shraptor shrap...@gmail.com wrote: I wouldn't say systemd developers are evil merely selfish On Tuesday, March 31, 2015, Martin Steigerwald mar...@lichtvoll.de wrote: Hi! As a honest feedback: Currently I do not read much of the threads here. Cause again and again I see language like systemd being like a cancer or infecting people´s systems. It is neither a cancer, nor does it infect systems. What this kind of language mirrors in my eyes is fear of having to put up with systemd at some point. Yet, at any time it has been upstream developers or package maintainers who *decided* to adopt it. Saying that systemd is the source of all evil and we are doomed to it, is in no way helpful for any we want to be without systemd efforts like Devuan. Quite the opposite: It harms the credibility of such projects, cause it gives the impression that those projects just consists of a bunch of people who circulate conspirations theories about systemd *without* doing *anything* about the situation. So here is my plea to stay to what you actually *really* perceive. Stop assuming intentions. Especially stop assuming bad intentions. I think that systemd developers essentially mean it good. They have no evil plans to take over the world or do harm to others. Instead they believe that what they do is worthwhile. Of course its totally and perfectly okay not to agree with that. But please stop assuming intentions that may or may not be there. And for your own benefit, stop using a language which gives your power away. systemd is no cancer and it does not infect systems. If systemd is on your system, either you installed it or upgraded it and your distro package maintainers decided to use it. So systemd developers, if you agree with it or not, had quite some success in convincing others to use and rely on systemd. Yet this is exactly what makes Devuan possible: If you put some effort to it, like for example Jude does without engaging much into the fear based threads so far as I have seen, *it is perfectly possible to have a system without systemd*. And no systemd whatsoever would infect such a system. It just doesn´t have the power to do it. Its a piece of code. It has no power whatsoever on its own. Its no evil critter which just sits next to computer and waits for a chance to take it over. And if you are constructive and positive in your approach, and your systems provides a good alternative, then more may adopt it in the future. Yes, some upstream developers decided to rely on functionality provided by systemd and some depend on it, instead of making it optional. And yes, I see this development with concern. But it is still a decision. No automatic effect. systemd has absolutely and totally *no* power over you. systemd upstream has absolutely and totally *no* power over you. I want to repeat this: Neither systemd nor systemd upstream have any power over you. This is still *free* software. Stop giving your power away. Instead: Claim it. Claim it by using a language that is free of self- defeating patterns like that. A language that puts back the responsibility in your hands. Feel your fear, appreciate it, and by that unlock the power you locked down in it. You have any power in the world to support any efforts to have a systemd free system. So now choose: In what way do you want to spend your energy? Did any of the talk about systemd being a cancer or infecting people´s system do *any* good to change the situation? Did it work? Or do efforts like the one of Jude with vdev any good to change the situation? Does it work? Do more of what works, and instead of repeating patterns that are ineffective in changing your current situation, do something that works as well. Or if you do not want to invest the time, let others do it and be grateful about it instead of filling this list with powerless and self-defeating thought patterns. (That said I think cancer usually is no death sentence either and there are quite powerful approaches in addition or as alternative to academic medicine to deal with it. And I believe that there are ways to help the body to deal with any kind of infection.) Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Claim your power
Hi Jörg, Am Dienstag, 31. März 2015, 10:40:14 schrieb Joerg Reisenweber: On Tue 31 March 2015 10:10:28 Martin Steigerwald wrote: So here is my plea to stay to what you actually *really* perceive. Stop assuming intentions. Especially stop assuming bad intentions. I think that systemd developers essentially mean it good. They have no evil plans to take over the world or do harm to others. Instead they believe that what they do is worthwhile. Of course its totally and perfectly okay not to agree with that. While I generally agree with the reasoning of your post, I still feel to point out that it is not only OK but actually PC and mandatory to question the motivations and goals of those who introduce a new idea or concept. Otherwise you're always late and only can react on the fallout (intentionally ambiguous wording). When I read terms like cancer and infect then I don't only relate them to the binary on my system but also to the social aspects of the whole issue that you mentioned (distro maintainers all too cheerfully adopting systemd, lots of fanboys claiming linux never really worked before systemd came along, and generally the idea that freedom would mean some company can take the joint effort of generations of developers into a new direction decided upon by only a dozen of members of systemd cabal¹ ), and I think in that context those terms describe pretty accurately what's happening. Regarding any master plans behind systemd: they are less obvious to some than they are to others, but it seems there been sound arguments that - no matter if intentional or not, planned or not - systemd movement *will* actually *implement* a drastically changed ecosystem that looks much favorable for RH and takes away freedom of general linux community. What's the use in trying to refrain from blaming RH for *intentionally* trying to 'achieve world dominion' when actually what systemd cabal does is evidently establishing exactly that, at least long term? I do think the polarity which systemd triggers is way more *social* than *technical*, as I outlined in a thread to systemd-devel I started in September 2014[1]. So I agree with that. Yet, I still do not think that any bad intentions are behind it. Sure, there are intentions. But ultimately I do not *know* them. Yes, it seems to me that systemd upstream developers have a different view on how a Linux system should look like than what I am used to what it looks like. In above thread at some time Lennart was calling me Now you are being a dick instead of continuing the discussion, so I think there is a limited acceptance for even discussing a different way to put Linux systems together. And more so a total resistance to discuss and address any *social* issues. Yet, I do think genuinely systemd upstream developers believe that what they do is good and worthwile for Linux (and not only RedHat). I also do not agree that it is RedHat´s intention to take over Linux completely. They can´t anyway. They just do not have the power to do it. Sure, RedHat is the biggest commercial Linux distributor. Sure as such entity I bet it has the goal to raise its profits even more. Sure also they employ Lennart meanwhile and the drove systemd adoption. But I do not think there are any bad or evil intentions or even any we are the only ones who decide what goes into Linux intentions behind it. On any account I do think that it is a *total waste of time* to speculate about intentions. Every single moment, every single minute can be spend in a more effective way on the goal of having a systemd free system instead. So I stop this here now. Its just that a part of the current Linux users and developers!, including upstream kernel developers as I found out do not agree to this new way to put a Linux system together. A part of the Linux users and developers may also not agree with the way systemd upstream handles the feedback it receives which is the social issue. And thats fine. I do not think that any terms like cancer, infection or cabal are any helpful there. What I perceive as the most pressing social issue around systemd and systemd upstream, but also partly systemd Debian packagers is the complete refusal to treat some bug reports and some kind of feedback in a way that actually *acknowledges* the feedback. See the wont fix on the Google nameserver thing, see some systemd related bug reports on freedesktop, see the comment on Linus to Kay Sievers about the debug kernel command line. Linus put it really bluntly. I bet you can find his post easily. That is the most severe social issue: Some systemd upstream developers and systemd debian packagers do seem to believe so much that their way is right, that they do not even consider that a different oppinion could be valid *at all*. And if one brings this up as a social issues they completely refuse to discuss it. I experienced this myself on systemd- devel
Re: [Dng] Claim your power
Am Dienstag, 31. März 2015, 11:11:31 schrieb Joerg Reisenweber: On Tue 31 March 2015 09:59:48 Damien Hunter wrote: Selfish in what way exactly? maybe in a way where they put their own priorities on top and ruthlessly follow them, no matter if that breaks stuff for a lot or even majority of other users. Selfish as in egozentric and not at all open to any criticism or discussion of a better approach. I agree with that one. See my reply to your first post. Linus put it quite bluntly as hey address the debug line thing Kay Sievers refused to fix at that time. I have seen this pattern repeatedly with systemd upstreamd and in part also systemd Debian packagers. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Claim your power
On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 11:16:02AM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote: [cut] What I perceive as the most pressing social issue around systemd and systemd upstream, but also partly systemd Debian packagers is the complete refusal to treat some bug reports and some kind of feedback in a way that actually *acknowledges* the feedback. See the wont fix on the Google nameserver thing, see some systemd related bug reports on freedesktop, see the comment on Linus to Kay Sievers about the debug kernel command line. Linus put it really bluntly. I bet you can find his post easily. That is the most severe social issue: Some systemd upstream developers and systemd debian packagers do seem to believe so much that their way is right, that they do not even consider that a different oppinion could be valid *at all*. And if one brings this up as a social issues they completely refuse to discuss it. I experienced this myself on systemd- devel before I unsubscribed there again. I experienced this myself on own systemd related bug reports I filed with Debian. Hi Martin, that's exactly what I referred to when I talked of the systemd-nonsense as a cancer. The damage is not merely technical and localised to the relatively minor issue of replacing PID 1, as you correctly pointed out, but systemic and social. And that's exactly why we should be more concerned about it. As far as I can remember, no major free software project has survived long by answering wont fix more often that thanks for pointing this out. The only difference here is that we are not talking of an editor or a shell, for which you have several hundred easy replacements, but of an entire new way of conceiving free software development, which can be summarised in I don't mind WTF you think is good, because I am the only one in charge. And unfortunately this new way is rapidly spreading, as you correctly pointed out again, from the systemd core team to systemd package maintainers and project leaders. That's exactly why I believe that the Devuan effort is more fundamental, because it will establish and confirm an *proactive* and *human* free software development model. HND KatolaZ P.S.: I acknowledge that doing things is ways more important that chit-chatting, but I believe that the (sometimes prolonged) threads in this ML are contributing to build a new sense of community, so it's not just wasted time ;-) -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Why daemontools is so cool
Le 30/03/2015 19:24, Steve Litt a écrit : Hi Didier, If your post says what I think it says, you're saying that modern init systems should always start services concurrently, not consecutively. Maybe this is a little too extremist and is going farther than what I meant. Let me moderate it a little. Typically, the early init phase happens in initramfs and finishes with switch_root or pivot_root to the final rootfs. At this time, when /sbin/init starts, /, /dev, /proc, /sys are already mounted and /dev is at least partly populated (totally in the case of a static /dev). Which part of the dependencies is best managed by init and which by the daemons is a matter of expertise. Starting things sequentially is certainly a too extreme way to manage the dependencies. But my point was rather on the daemons. I'm not saying that init should be a fork-bomb (I discovered this expression recently and enjoy it :-) ). My point is that services should be able to wait for their resources by themselves, not only in the initialization phase, and be able to react to changes in these resources. For a daemon we had two design options proposed: 1) resource allocation, then orphanning, then service, then death if resource lost, 2) statefull program providing service when resource is available. The first is the traditional fashion; it is fragile and unsafe to supervise; it was devised long ago, far before the advent of hotplugging. The second is a survivor, easy to supervise and fits with hotplugging. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Claim your power
On Tue 31 March 2015 11:57:00 Udo Rader wrote: And when it comes to wording and social (mis)behaviour, I think Lennart said it very well for himself in his interview last October: The Open Source community is full of assholes Perfect excuse to act like one yourself ;-) [not addressed to OP] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Claim your power
On Tue 31 March 2015 11:16:02 Martin Steigerwald wrote: I do not think that any terms like cancer, infection or cabal are any helpful there. NB not *I* invented systemd cabal term, it been Poettering himself, in his blog I linked above. here again for your convenience: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Claim your power
On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 01:59:28PM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote: If you want to see this as a cancer or virus infection you are subjected to, it is your choice. I doubt that it is a choice that is effective at changing the situation, but it is your choice. Seeing it as a cancer is motivation for changing the situation. Without motivation, things tend not to get done. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Claim your power
Am Dienstag, 31. März 2015, 11:57:00 schrieb Udo Rader: On 03/31/2015 10:10 AM, Martin Steigerwald wrote: It is neither a cancer, nor does it infect systems. Systemd Gains IP Forwarding, IP Masquerading Basic Firewall Controls http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=systemd-networkd-IP- Forward Systemd Works On PPPoE Support http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTgyODQ Gummiboot UEFI Boot Loader To Be Added To Systemd http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=systemd-Gummiboot-Boo t-Loader Systemd 217 Will Introduce Its New Consoled User Console Daemon http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTgwNzQ if it is not cancer, it is at least an extremely serious virus infection ... But you are right, the infection is not done by systemd itself but by package maintainers going down the road along with systemd. Udo, get my message, or not. It is your choice. I think I do not have to add anything to what I wrote. I do not want to argue *at all* on who is right. This whole who is right thing is the fundament of the issue at hand here. If you want to see this as a cancer or virus infection you are subjected to, it is your choice. I doubt that it is a choice that is effective at changing the situation, but it is your choice. I won´t spend any energy to argue with it. You either get my message, or you don´t. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Claim your power
On 2015-03-31 10:10, Martin Steigerwald wrote: Hi! Neither systemd nor systemd upstream have any power over you. This is still *free* software. Stop giving your power away. Ciao, the systemd discussion is most importantly not a technical discussion but a discussion on its centralized design philosophy and how we (who have just become) the alienated digital minority, should best respond to these developments, even at this time we as a group are not consulted on this subject. The centralized design philosophy offers no real choice but to follow that was is thought best for you, essentially marginalizing parts of the free software developer community. I would not be surprised if this centralized effort results in one inconvenience compounded to another in the long run so clearly we need a viable alternative (Devuan) Especially stunning is also the post-snowden effect they are adding by stating that they want a fully trustable OS - where everything can be verified by a full trust chain for the lowest to highest level, you know - to guard you from eavesdropping or malicious software whilst in reality it is a single point of failure. Remember the security breach at Diginotar in 2011? Privacy leaks have just grown to biblical proportions. Add a military contractor on top of that and conspiracy theories pop up like mushrooms after a rainy day. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Freedom Logo
- Oryginalna wiadomość - Od: Go Linux goli...@yahoo.com Do: Anto arya...@chello.at, Svarog sva...@linuxtech.pl DW: dng@lists.dyne.org Wysłane: wtorek, 31 marzec 2015 23:22:20 Temat: Re: [Dng] Freedom Logo This logo bike-shedding is getting rather out of control. Yes, it's a very nice looking graphic. But as the OP noted, it is not in sync with the release naming scheme of minor planets. So IMO this whole discussion may be a nice distraction but pointless flooding of the email list. Now if it were Hubble or some recognizable space object instead of a raptor . . . h . . . golinux Well, it does not sync with the planet scheme, but for example ubuntu logo has nothing in common with their code naming scheme, debian logo has very little in common with debian release names, etc, so it does not seem to be an issue. Nevertheless the eagle logo is not totally out of context here like in the case of the abovementioned or gentoo logo or others. It shouts out loudly: Firmness and Freedom, what makes it a pretty adequate symbol. There are four versions by the way: blue, pink, purple and torquoise. The debian spiral is removed. Kind Regards, kvasny ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] This has GOT to be an April Fools joke
On Tue, 31 Mar 2015 07:51:19 +0100 KatolaZ kato...@freaknet.org wrote: On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 04:56:00PM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote: Of course, the next step is an authorized and signed kernel distributed only in binary form that can be trusted on Win10 certified hardware. Add to that scenario that some future version of systemd will only work with the signed and trusted binary only kernel... Again. such a binary blob cannot be the Linux kernel with some patches, thanks to the fact that Linux is under GPLv2, so any modified version of it has to be released with the same license, which implies that any user should be able to use, distribute, modify and redistribute the software she receives under that license. I think he was probably envisioning Redhat creating a from-scratch kernel. This would further differentiate Redhat, and would lock their users into Redhat. I think Nate's point is Redhat's scared to do that until Redhat has everyone ensnared in their hard-to-remove obfuscation code (otherwise known as systemd). Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean Redhat isn't out to get me. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan philosohy
A good list. Some combo of 1. and 10. WRT interface design Be liberal in what you accept for input and conservative in what you output to the next victim Also for 13. sysadmin time is also expensive. Human time gets more expensive every year and machine time gets cheaper every year. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan philosohy
On Tue, 31 Mar 2015, Hendrik Boom wrote: On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 11:16:02AM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote: [1] [systemd-devel] I wonder… why systemd provokes this amount of polarity and resistance: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/thread.html The discussion here contains a quotation about the Unix philosophy (in an attempt to explain how systemd follows it). I find it summmarises well the way Devuan believes a Linux system should be organised: 1. Write simple parts connected by clean interfaces. 2. Clarity is better than cleverness. 3. Design programs to be connected to other programs. 4. Separate policy from mechanism; separate interfaces from engines. 5. Design for simplicity; add complexity only where you must. 6. Write a big program only when it is clear by demonstration that nothing else will do. 7. Rule of Transparency: Design for visibility to make inspection and debugging easier. 8. Robustness is the child of transparency and simplicity. 9. Fold knowledge into data so program logic can be stupid and robust. 10. In interface design, always do the least surprising thing. 11. When a program has nothing surprising to say, it should say nothing. 12. When you must fail, fail noisily and as soon as possible. 13. Programmer time is expensive; conserve it in preference to machine time. 14. Avoid hand-hacking; write programs to write programs when you can. 15. Prototype before polishing. Get it working before you optimize it. 16. Distrust all claims for “one true way”. 17. Design for the future, because it will be here sooner than you think. (see http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294.html for the actual post) thanks for extracting this summary. IMHO Martin makes good points by opening this thread. Beyond the jokes and the fact is 1st of April in New Zealand already :^) we may want to facilitate a disarmament process of the two factions. Nevertheless I find pretty offensive episodes like the one at Libre Planet where a Peter gets publicly alienated as troll for asking a question about systemd, it just feels like we are fighting an asymmetric war against a leading group that seized all resources and will not drop its weapons while playing victim. Beyond all their good intentions I believe they still want us all dead. Also the final argument of this mail you link is disgusting considering the vote they keep waving is a 4v4 Condorcet draw and it should have been pondered with some more attention or at least not waved as the final resolution that sends all others to Hell. Ultimately we are lucky as it looks like Hell is a much better place than we thought initially, at least there is much more activity and space for innovation than in Heaven ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan philosohy
On Tue 31 March 2015 09:11:54 Hendrik Boom wrote: On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 11:16:02AM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote: [1] [systemd-devel] I wonder… why systemd provokes this amount of polarity and resistance: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/thread. html The discussion here contains a quotation about the Unix philosophy (in an attempt to explain how systemd follows it). I find it summmarises well the way Devuan believes a Linux system should be organised: 1. Write simple parts connected by clean interfaces. 2. Clarity is better than cleverness. 3. Design programs to be connected to other programs. 4. Separate policy from mechanism; separate interfaces from engines. 5. Design for simplicity; add complexity only where you must. 6. Write a big program only when it is clear by demonstration that nothing else will do. 7. Rule of Transparency: Design for visibility to make inspection and debugging easier. 8. Robustness is the child of transparency and simplicity. 9. Fold knowledge into data so program logic can be stupid and robust. 10. In interface design, always do the least surprising thing. 11. When a program has nothing surprising to say, it should say nothing. 12. When you must fail, fail noisily and as soon as possible. 13. Programmer time is expensive; conserve it in preference to machine time. 14. Avoid hand-hacking; write programs to write programs when you can. 15. Prototype before polishing. Get it working before you optimize it. 16. Distrust all claims for “one true way”. 17. Design for the future, because it will be here sooner than you think. (see http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294.ht ml for the actual post) -- hendrik Jóhann B. Guðmundsson in http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294.html asks: Now after you have read these more of an guidelines than actual philosophy I would like to hear from you where you think systemd has and is falling short of them during it's development phase and lifetime so I can better understand why people seem to be claiming it's not following these guidelines? I think it's more easy to list where systemd (the project) is _not_ failing: #3 and just maybe also on #12 (unlikely), #14, #15 - I didn't feel like checking just to complete the already overwhelming list of failures. I wonder how anybody could fail to see how systemd massively violates particularly #6 but also #1 #2 #5 and just recently #10 (8.8.8.8 issue). In the end the tone and obvious hybris and arrogance in that mail make it seem unlikely that answering to this guy would result in anything good. I mean somebody claiming that 7 years of function hijacking are hard to beat by any competitor that's just a init system (paraphrased) is clearly explaining the issue itself as well as exposing his own complete lack to grok the issue. There's a lot more to say about other fallacies in this mail, but I think everybody willing to see will not need me to point all that out. /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Wana give a try to vdev
Dear Jude, I would like to try your vdev. I plan to use a diskless embeded powerpc I have available for devel. I prefer that to using quemu and I want to keep my laptop functional h24. I would do it in an OS built from scratch with only 3 components: kernel version 2.6.29, busybox and vdev. Therefore I would like to compile vdev and link it statically from the source. Does it seem feasible? Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Claim your power
On Tue, 31 Mar 2015 10:10:28 +0200 Martin Steigerwald mar...@lichtvoll.de wrote: Saying that systemd is the source of all evil and we are doomed to it, is in no way helpful for any we want to be without systemd efforts like Devuan. Quite the opposite: It harms the credibility of such projects, cause it gives the impression that those projects just consists of a bunch of people who circulate conspirations theories about systemd *without* doing *anything* about the situation. I've seen almost nobody on the Dng list make the compound statement referenced in the first sentence of the preceding paragraph. Systemd is the source of all evil? Certainly, a lot of us believe it's evil. We're doomed to it? No, that's strictly a Debian-User talking point, and I haven't seen it used here. If you're interpreting systemd is the source of all evil as we are doomed to it, I think you're misinterpreting what people meant. In fact, we've gathered around Devuan specifically to eliminate systemd. Regardless of motivation or philosophy or anything else, the one thing we're *actually doing* on this distro is getting rid of systemd. Now here's the thing: The people gathered around Devuan all want to be free of systemd, but for many different reasons. Some don't like its architecture. Some want to retain the ability to write init scripts. Some want native text logs. Some don't like its lead programmer. Some don't like its sponsor. Some believe it's the opening salvo in an Embrace-Extend-Extinquish attack. Some are tired of their low level operating system being somebody else's experimental lab. So we all work together. Conspiracy theorists and init script lovers, Redhat haters and modularity insisters, we all must work together, because if we don't all hang together, we most certainly will hang separately. I think we all should accept each others' motivations for working on Devuan. That's the sure way of guaranteeing that we'll never be doomed to systemd. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan philosohy
On Tue, 31 Mar 2015 09:11:54 -0400
Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com wrote:
On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 11:16:02AM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
[1] [systemd-devel] I wonder… why systemd provokes this amount of
polarity and resistance:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/thread.html
The discussion here contains a quotation about the Unix philosophy
(in an attempt to explain how systemd follows it). I find it
summmarises well the way Devuan believes a Linux system should be
organised:
Allow me to make a couple small enhancements. Please keep in mind that
I use TS to mean Thin, Standard, where a standard interface is a
pipe, named pipe, fifo, socket, simply structured file, etc. When I
insert something, I'll use square brackets. When I delete something,
I'll use X{whatever deleted text}.
1. Write simple parts connected by clean
[TS]
interfaces.
2. Clarity is better than cleverness.
3. Design programs to be connected to other programs
[by TS interfaces]
[3a Connect programs only on a need to know basis, where the connected
program is purposed primarily to do what the connected program needs
done. Don't connect to a bicycle just to get a spoke.]
[3b If the connecting program, at various locations, requires various
types of services from the connected program, it might be OK to
violate 3a. This might, in some cases, justify connecting to GTk and
Qt.]
4. Separate policy from mechanism; separate interfaces
from engines.
5. Design for simplicity; add complexity only where you
must.
6. Write a big program only when it is clear by demonstration
that nothing else will do.
7. Rule of Transparency: Design for visibility to make inspection and
debugging easier.
8. Robustness is the child of transparency and simplicity.
9. Fold knowledge into data so program logic can be stupid and robust.
10. In interface design, always do the least surprising thing.
11. When a program has nothing surprising to say, it should say
nothing.
12. When you must fail, fail noisily and as soon as possible.
13. Programmer time is expensive; conserve it in preference to
machine time.
[13a. Unless doing so would make life slower for users and admins, in
which case your top priority should be saving time for the users and
admins.]
14. Avoid hand-hacking; write programs to write programs when you can.
15. Prototype before polishing. Get it working before you optimize it.
16. Distrust all claims for “one true way”.
17. Design for the future, because it will be here sooner than you
think.
I think my modifications go a long way toward rejecting faux modularity.
SteveT
Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
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Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XVII - Where no toy has gone before
Thanks Isaac for the correction. On 03/31/2015 12:59 PM, Isaac Dunham wrote: On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 09:15:23AM -0400, etech3 wrote: # Devuan Weekly News Issue XVII __Volume 02, Week 12, Devuan Week 17__ ### [Puppy Linux-related thoughts...][4] Isaac Dunham started a post that there may be some guidelines from Puppy Linux for building a small, lightweight, fast, and relatively easy to use system, even for total Linux newbies. Includes a link to distrowatch.com on an antiX Jessie beta without systemd. Apollia had a related post about Gobo Linux, Puppy [Linux.][5] Correction: Apollia was the first one to mention Puppy Linux; I replied to Apollia's email. Thanks, Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Freedom Logo
On 31/03/15 21:36, Anto wrote: On 31/03/15 21:27, Arthur Schopenhauer wrote: I like the eagle as a symbol though. Maybe a nice green tone would fit better? Green is good colour. It is an earthy (is that even a word?) colour which symbolises freedom. But I would prefer blue if I may choose. I just double checked. Actually, blue colour symbolises freedom. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Freedom Logo
On 31/03/15 19:27, wojt wrote: Hi everyone, I am aware of the planets names theme, nevertheless I would like to propose a slightly different from the galaxies approach towards the logo, namely highlighting the liberated character of the project and at the same time reference to Debian. The logo which utilizes the universal symbol of freedom – a bird (eagle) and at the same time the Debian spiral is the epitome of the whole concept of Devuan, it is very informative about what Devuan actually is, thus it could help to promote the project. Furthermore eagle is also a creature of a 'firm' character so to say, therefore it will add a positive connotations to Devuan. It will be very beneficial for the project to be promoted with a logo which has a clear, strong and precise symbolic message: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/File:Devuan_Freedom.png What are your thoughts on this? Kind Regards, kvasny. Hello Kvasny, That looks good. But I don't think it is necessary to have Debian logo there. That does not look fit in my view. Does it have to be there? Cheers, Anto ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Freedom Logo
On 31/03/15 21:27, Arthur Schopenhauer wrote: I like the eagle as a symbol though. Maybe a nice green tone would fit better? Green is good colour. It is an earthy (is that even a word?) colour which symbolises freedom. But I would prefer blue if I may choose. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Wana give a try to vdev
Hi Didier, Thank you for offering! I haven't tried statically linking vdev or its helper programs yet, but I don't see why it wouldn't work. You'll need to tweak the vdevd and vdevd helper program makefiles (in vdevd/Makefile and vdevd/helpers/LINUX/Makefile, respectively) to add the -static directive to gcc. All of the helper programs only need libc. vdevd needs libvdev (which can be built with make -C libvdev), but libvdev only needs libc. Let me know how it goes? I'll add it to the tutorial I just sent out if it works :) Thanks, Jude On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 12:18 PM, Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr wrote: Dear Jude, I would like to try your vdev. I plan to use a diskless embeded powerpc I have available for devel. I prefer that to using quemu and I want to keep my laptop functional h24. I would do it in an OS built from scratch with only 3 components: kernel version 2.6.29, busybox and vdev. Therefore I would like to compile vdev and link it statically from the source. Does it seem feasible? Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Freedom Logo
On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 08:31:08PM +0200, Anto wrote: On 31/03/15 19:27, wojt wrote: Hi everyone, I am aware of the planets names theme, nevertheless I would like to propose a slightly different from the galaxies approach towards the logo, namely highlighting the liberated character of the project and at the same time reference to Debian. The logo which utilizes the universal symbol of freedom – a bird (eagle) and at the same time the Debian spiral is the epitome of the whole concept of Devuan, it is very informative about what Devuan actually is, thus it could help to promote the project. Furthermore eagle is also a creature of a 'firm' character so to say, therefore it will add a positive connotations to Devuan. It will be very beneficial for the project to be promoted with a logo which has a clear, strong and precise symbolic message: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/File:Devuan_Freedom.png What are your thoughts on this? Kind Regards, kvasny. Hello Kvasny, That looks good. But I don't think it is necessary to have Debian logo there. That does not look fit in my view. Does it have to be there? And if relations between us and Debian degenerate, it might end up being a problem. Isn't thee Debian swirl trademarked of something? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] [vdev] vdev tutorial
Hey everyone, A few people have asked me privately how to help test vdev, for which I am very grateful :) It inspired me to write up a tutorial and crash course to testing and using vdev [1]. The instructions should work in the Vagrant image (or in Debian testing/unstable, for that matter). Any/all comments, feedback, and pull requests welcome :) -Jude [1] https://git.devuan.org/pkgs-utopia-substitution/vdev/blob/master/how-to-test.md Also available at https://github.com/jcnelson/vdev/blob/master/how-to-test.md ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Freedom Logo
Hi everyone, I am aware of the planets names theme, nevertheless I would like to propose a slightly different from the galaxies approach towards the logo, namely highlighting the liberated character of the project and at the same time reference to Debian. The logo which utilizes the universal symbol of freedom – a bird (eagle) and at the same time the Debian spiral is the epitome of the whole concept of Devuan, it is very informative about what Devuan actually is, thus it could help to promote the project. Furthermore eagle is also a creature of a 'firm' character so to say, therefore it will add a positive connotations to Devuan. It will be very beneficial for the project to be promoted with a logo which has a clear, strong and precise symbolic message: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/File:Devuan_Freedom.png What are your thoughts on this? Kind Regards, kvasny. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Freedom Logo
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I like the logo but like others I think should not bear the Debian logo. It may be trite but, why not a Fenix? IMHO, Devuan is the resurgence of many things and ideals. My three cents. Best regards. El 31/03/15 a las 11:27, wojt escribió: Hi everyone, I am aware of the planets names theme, nevertheless I would like to propose a slightly different from the galaxies approach towards the logo, namely highlighting the liberated character of the project and at the same time reference to Debian. The logo which utilizes the universal symbol of freedom – a bird (eagle) and at the same time the Debian spiral is the epitome of the whole concept of Devuan, it is very informative about what Devuan actually is, thus it could help to promote the project. Furthermore eagle is also a creature of a 'firm' character so to say, therefore it will add a positive connotations to Devuan. It will be very beneficial for the project to be promoted with a logo which has a clear, strong and precise symbolic message: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/File:Devuan_Freedom.png What are your thoughts on this? Kind Regards, kvasny. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJVGv6cAAoJEPFiITbOHxxTmfcQAIowU4GYvktM05DBsovdPARr 93uC+uBin7yXLpv0NmCZ2tO4YXQPAqHgC28vGkSU95DM8KpgZhFbz1AkhGAXFddm 0gWQaOZaAr7635MvA0k+El0G6jifqPUAspmCng2sUKhAqdROICXSjyHKTeTeUi/U 2uiPbwmpvdQSJbypzR/oe6XeglV7Wlf9B/yEjW0Xo+dDDoepS3S5z1TPqxdF8WSX szguKSnQnTpEiOvKbC8+DW4Q+Q1xo/D0xGe194tiRJuVbENpwqTu0ZGEY+PSyjAr p/OhF2dQUXatYIiUmSbjjP6/hV50W8mViyTHViSCPu+phbqwZdMFHy9ZuzQBpcNN stvJkRPnp2LXhdb7yhGw+Va3X6QmcsLYmT7p8X8HpY9vfECJ943gruJauHj0WEtF n7C380QZjYIdIfosD0vRIfVQnFuQkggFk01p4oa5qCl6OZ3KaL/pJoMcOia5hje8 hpDgkrUcju628B9VtxsLmv/yw6UDTMbuysN7IEhKPRNznwabfF46Oxy+6DDoi5dV yKNy3y6KHxYnWkawrHUMDFvwxVKPn2yUnzn1XaAbw9j0FA/spnR/jyv6qCJz7++y C8nNFu90162THZ2KkjEao82K8H9R0GEfQsDGYuGi1s4ECbT6IyR/OJqcI0u0zaiS PkXGOXW4DMsgij16AVIT =jpPf -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [dng] vdev status update
Thankfully, the puppy should be fine :) She only ate a few capsules, and we caught her just after the fact, so we were able to get her proper treatment before the toxicity could set in. We get to take her home from the vet either tonight or tomorrow. -Jude On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 3:15 AM, Archangel Amael archangel.am...@gmail.com wrote: Well how are the puppies? Hey everyone, I don't have as much to report this week as I usually do, since I spent half my weekend dealing with a pet medical emergency (TL;DR: ibuprofen is toxic to puppies, and puppies can chew through child-proof lids). I am happy to report that I was able to extract the code for libudev 219 from systemd 219, and get it to compile independently. The resulting library is ABI-compatible with systemd's (no real surprise). My next steps are working through a couple vdev bugs that Scooby helped me find, as well as get libudev to work without udevd. More next week, Jude ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Freedom Logo
Hi all, here is few other colour variants: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/File:Devuan_Freedom_purple.png http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/File:Devuan_Freedom_pink.png http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/File:Devuan_Freedom_blue1.png I decided not to put anything on the wing as in small format it will not be clearly visible anyway. I like the purple one :-) - Oryginalna wiadomość - Od: Svarog sva...@linuxtech.pl Do: Anto arya...@chello.at DW: dng@lists.dyne.org Wysłane: wtorek, 31 marzec 2015 21:38:59 Temat: Re: [Dng] Freedom Logo Hi all, I uploaded a different version: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/File:Devuan_Freedom_blue1.png Kind Regards, kvasny - Oryginalna wiadomość - Od: Svarog sva...@linuxtech.pl Do: Anto arya...@chello.at DW: dng@lists.dyne.org Wysłane: wtorek, 31 marzec 2015 21:03:37 Temat: Re: [Dng] Freedom Logo Ok I will upload another version without spiral and in blue. Do you think that I should replace the spiral with something else (it is a top-central point of the logo, so something could be there), or do you think that just plain wing will do? - Oryginalna wiadomość - Od: Anto arya...@chello.at Do: dng@lists.dyne.org Wysłane: wtorek, 31 marzec 2015 20:41:24 Temat: Re: [Dng] Freedom Logo On 31/03/15 21:36, Anto wrote: On 31/03/15 21:27, Arthur Schopenhauer wrote: I like the eagle as a symbol though. Maybe a nice green tone would fit better? Green is good colour. It is an earthy (is that even a word?) colour which symbolises freedom. But I would prefer blue if I may choose. I just double checked. Actually, blue colour symbolises freedom. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Devuan philosohy
On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 11:16:02AM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote: [1] [systemd-devel] I wonder… why systemd provokes this amount of polarity and resistance: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/thread.html The discussion here contains a quotation about the Unix philosophy (in an attempt to explain how systemd follows it). I find it summmarises well the way Devuan believes a Linux system should be organised: 1. Write simple parts connected by clean interfaces. 2. Clarity is better than cleverness. 3. Design programs to be connected to other programs. 4. Separate policy from mechanism; separate interfaces from engines. 5. Design for simplicity; add complexity only where you must. 6. Write a big program only when it is clear by demonstration that nothing else will do. 7. Rule of Transparency: Design for visibility to make inspection and debugging easier. 8. Robustness is the child of transparency and simplicity. 9. Fold knowledge into data so program logic can be stupid and robust. 10. In interface design, always do the least surprising thing. 11. When a program has nothing surprising to say, it should say nothing. 12. When you must fail, fail noisily and as soon as possible. 13. Programmer time is expensive; conserve it in preference to machine time. 14. Avoid hand-hacking; write programs to write programs when you can. 15. Prototype before polishing. Get it working before you optimize it. 16. Distrust all claims for “one true way”. 17. Design for the future, because it will be here sooner than you think. (see http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023294.html for the actual post) -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Devuan Weekly News XVII - Where no toy has gone before
# Devuan Weekly News Issue XVII __Volume 02, Week 12, Devuan Week 17__ Released 03/31/12015 [HE](why-he) https://git.devuan.org/Envite/devuan-weekly-news/wikis/past-issues/volume-02/issue-017 ## Editorial ### Where no toy has gone before... We mourn the passing of actor Leonard Nimoy, most famous for his role as Star Trek's Vulcan science officer Mr. Spock. The sci-fi classic served as an inspiration for many at [NASA][1]. Leonard Nimoy was an inspiration to multiple generations of engineers, scientists, astronauts, and other space explorers. As Mr. Spock, he made science and technology important to the story, while never failing to show, by example, that it is the people around us who matter most. Thanks goes out to everyone who helps on the DWN etech3 ## Last Week in Devuan ### [vdev status update][3] As in other weeks, Jude posted to the list the weekly vdev status update. Very interesting read. ### [Puppy Linux-related thoughts...][4] Isaac Dunham started a post that there may be some guidelines from Puppy Linux for building a small, lightweight, fast, and relatively easy to use system, even for total Linux newbies. Includes a link to distrowatch.com on an antiX Jessie beta without systemd. Apollia had a related post about Gobo Linux, Puppy [Linux.][5] ### [Why daemontools is so cool][7] Steve Litt started this post listing some features he likes in daemontools. A lot of followup posts. ### [Any plans to provide xinit without the systemd hacks?][8] ### [Is libudev-compat ready for testing][9] shraptor shraptor (or Scooby) saw Jude had committed some code and asked if libudev-compat is ready for testing. He further asked if there was there any testing done on vagrant image? Jude replied that it's not quite ready - it's not yet ABI-compatible with libudev (but it is API-compatible). Jaromil commented that sounds great. libudev-compat is the last thing standing in the way of removing systemd packages completely AFAIK ### [Another reason why I am considering Devuan][11] It was pointed out that Debian had a systemd-related bug regarding DNS with follow ups relating to name server set up. [11]:https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150329.130743.e7a627ec.en.html [9]:https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150328.191653.370f97d3.en.html [8]:https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150328.152643.98b7ea1f.en.html [7]:https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150327.233205.623f3aa0.en.html [6]:https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150327.233205.623f3aa0.en.html [5]:https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150324.190730.1d70bafe.en.html [4]:https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150323.055207.4da7fc30.en.html [1]:http://www.nasa.gov/content/nasa-remembers-leonard-nimoy/ [2]:https://git.devuan.org/Envite/devuan-weekly-news/issues/2 [3]:https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150324.093704.b72a5258.en.html ## Devuan's Not Gnome DNG is the discussion list of the Devuan Project. - [Subscribe to the list][subscribe] - [Subscribe to the feed][atom-feed] - [Read online archives][archives] --- Read you next week! Devuan Weekly News is made by your peers: you're [welcome to contribute][wiki]! ... [subscribe]: https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng Subscribe to DNG mailing list [atom-feed]: http://lists.devuan.org/dwn/atom.xml Subscribe to ATOM feed [archives]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/list/dng.en.html Read DNG List Archive [upcoming]: https://git.devuan.org/Envite/devuan-weekly-news/wikis/upcoming-issue Upcoming Issue [wiki]: https://git.devuan.org/Envite/devuan-weekly-news/wikis/home Devuan Weekly News [why-he]: https://git.devuan.org/Envite/devuan-weekly-news/wikis/Why-HE Why Holocene Era? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Freedom Logo
On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 10:38:59PM +0200, Svarog wrote: Hi all, I uploaded a different version: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/File:Devuan_Freedom_blue1.png Kind Regards, kvasny That looks nice! (yes, that's including the color) Thanks, Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] This has GOT to be an April Fools joke
* On 2015 31 Mar 10:30 -0500, Steve Litt wrote: I think he was probably envisioning Redhat creating a from-scratch kernel. This would further differentiate Redhat, and would lock their users into Redhat. I think Nate's point is Redhat's scared to do that until Redhat has everyone ensnared in their hard-to-remove obfuscation code (otherwise known as systemd). No, I meant exactly what I wrote. Sure, the Linux kernel and its patches will be licensed GPLv2 and housed in a repository somewhere and people can download it, compile it, patch it, etc. However, the new Win10 certified hardware will require trust, AIUI, and that may well mean that only properly signed kernels will be trusted and will only be available as a binary blob from a certified vendor. It's not a far stretch to see how this reaches into userland where systemd can be uniquely positioned due to its all in one nature to continue the chain of trust through to the desktop. Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean Redhat isn't out to get me. To me trust is a euphemism for the cartels divvying up the pie. - Nate -- The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true. Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Freedom Logo
This logo bike-shedding is getting rather out of control. Yes, it's a very nice looking graphic. But as the OP noted, it is not in sync with the release naming scheme of minor planets. So IMO this whole discussion may be a nice distraction but pointless flooding of the email list. Now if it were Hubble or some recognizable space object instead of a raptor . . . h . . . golinux On Tue, 3/31/15, Svarog sva...@linuxtech.pl wrote: Subject: Re: [Dng] Freedom Logo To: Anto arya...@chello.at Cc: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2015, 3:03 PM Ok I will upload another version without spiral and in blue. Do you think that I should replace the spiral with something else (it is a top-central point of the logo, so something could be there), or do you think that just plain wing will do? - Oryginalna wiadomość - Od: Anto arya...@chello.at Do: dng@lists.dyne.org Wysłane: wtorek, 31 marzec 2015 20:41:24 Temat: Re: [Dng] Freedom Logo On 31/03/15 21:36, Anto wrote: On 31/03/15 21:27, Arthur Schopenhauer wrote: I like the eagle as a symbol though. Maybe a nice green tone would fit better? Green is good colour. It is an earthy (is that even a word?) colour which symbolises freedom. But I would prefer blue if I may choose. I just double checked. Actually, blue colour symbolises freedom. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Freedom Logo
Ok I will upload another version without spiral and in blue. Do you think that I should replace the spiral with something else (it is a top-central point of the logo, so something could be there), or do you think that just plain wing will do? - Oryginalna wiadomość - Od: Anto arya...@chello.at Do: dng@lists.dyne.org Wysłane: wtorek, 31 marzec 2015 20:41:24 Temat: Re: [Dng] Freedom Logo On 31/03/15 21:36, Anto wrote: On 31/03/15 21:27, Arthur Schopenhauer wrote: I like the eagle as a symbol though. Maybe a nice green tone would fit better? Green is good colour. It is an earthy (is that even a word?) colour which symbolises freedom. But I would prefer blue if I may choose. I just double checked. Actually, blue colour symbolises freedom. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
