Re: [DNG] Detailed technical treatise of systemd

2015-10-16 Thread Steve Litt 
On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:38:14 -0400
richard white  wrote:

> All,
> 
> A detailed technical treatise of systemd
> http://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2015/10/11/0/
> 
> -Rich

Hi Rich,

First, this is the guy who early on made the "uselessd" supposed
knockoff of the Init part of systemd, so he knows his technical chops.

I pretty much stopped reading after the following line in the
composition:

==
Fourthly, I will only be dealing with systemd the service manager (of
which the init is an intracomponent subset, and also contains several
other internal subsystems and characteristics which will prove of
paramount importance to the analysis), and to a lesser extent journald.
==


Here's a quote from one of my posts during the Debian-User systemd wars:


==
If systemd was just a PID1 with the features you enumerate above, I'd
be dancing in the street, not looking for a way out.
==


If systemd had been just another init system, replacible by any other
init system, I probably would have thought nothing about it. The vast
majority of the problem is its complete fencing off of the underlying
OS.

SteveT
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Re: [DNG] Detailed technical treatise of systemd

2015-10-16 Thread Neo Futur 
> I pretty much stopped reading after the following line in the
> composition:
>==
> Fourthly, I will only be dealing with systemd the service manager (of
> which the init is an intracomponent subset, and also contains several
> other internal subsystems and characteristics which will prove of
> paramount importance to the analysis), and to a lesser extent journald.
>==
 Same here, if systemd was just an init system, i d probably still
avoid it and fight it, but the main problem is that its much more than
that, eating everything around it (
http://neofutur.net/local/cache-vignettes/L200xH133/arton19-b28db.gif
), and that is the main problem, for sure.


>==
> If systemd was just a PID1 with the features you enumerate above, I'd
> be dancing in the street, not looking for a way out.
>==

not sure i d be dancing . . . but I mostly agree

> If systemd had been just another init system, replacible by any other
> init system, I probably would have thought nothing about it. The vast
> majority of the problem is its complete fencing off of the underlying
> OS.
yup, and forcing his way in with hard dependencies and agressive communication.
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Re: [DNG] Detailed technical treatise of systemd

2015-10-16 Thread Neo Futur 
>>  Same here, if systemd was just an init system, i d probably still
>> avoid it and fight it, but the main problem is that its much more than
>> that, eating everything around it (
>> http://neofutur.net/local/cache-vignettes/L200xH133/arton19-b28db.gif
>> ), and that is the main problem, for sure.
> In case you like a nice piece of irony: Both GNOME and KDE perform like
> shit. According to the opinion of both the GNOME and the KDE developers,
> the reason for this must be somewhere in all the code they didn't
> write. Hence, it has to be replaced. Especially considering that it's
> all "But that's not how Microsoft does it!" stuff --- and you can't get
> more fishy than that, can you?

 sure, and that is one more reason to prefer trinity ( kde3 fork ),
functional, intuitive, stable, not eating all your ram and . . . with
developpers who clearly stated they wont add any dependencies to
systemd ;)

 anyone here who havent already tried trinity, just give it a chance :
https://www.trinitydesktop.org/
binaries available for most distros :
https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/Category:Documentation#Installing_from_a_Package_Manager
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Re: [DNG] Detailed technical treatise of systemd

2015-10-16 Thread Rainer Weikusat 
Neo Futur  writes:
>> I pretty much stopped reading after the following line in the
>> composition:
>>==
>> Fourthly, I will only be dealing with systemd the service manager (of
>> which the init is an intracomponent subset, and also contains several
>> other internal subsystems and characteristics which will prove of
>> paramount importance to the analysis), and to a lesser extent journald.
>>==
>  Same here, if systemd was just an init system, i d probably still
> avoid it and fight it, but the main problem is that its much more than
> that, eating everything around it (
> http://neofutur.net/local/cache-vignettes/L200xH133/arton19-b28db.gif
> ), and that is the main problem, for sure.

In case you like a nice piece of irony: Both GNOME and KDE perform like
shit. According to the opinion of both the GNOME and the KDE developers,
the reason for this must be somewhere in all the code they didn't
write. Hence, it has to be replaced. Especially considering that it's
all "But that's not how Microsoft does it!" stuff --- and you can't get
more fishy than that, can you?


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Re: [DNG] Detailed technical treatise of systemd

2015-10-16 Thread richard white 
> If systemd had been just another init system, replacible by any other
> init system, I probably would have thought nothing about it. The vast
> majority of the problem is its complete fencing off of the underlying
> OS.
>

I whole heartily concur.
I barely even thought of init systems before systemd started to become a
reality.

I still appreciated V.R.'s post for it's presentation of concepts I wasn't
even aware of.

-Rich
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Re: [DNG] bootstrap-base error Re: About the experimental, live, DVD

2015-10-16 Thread aitor_czr 

This is the issue:

The version of the sources of libdebian-installer4 is 0.97 and some 
packages in the system (like 'cdebootstrap' and 'main-menu.udeb') are 
depending on it. Despite that, the version of the packages:


libdebian-installer4, libdebian-installer4-dev, 
libdebian-installer-extra4, libdebian-installer4-extra4.udeb, etc...


is 0.99+deb8u1.

Aitor.

On 16/10/15 11:07, aitor_czr wrote:

Hi Frits,

- cdebootstrap deb package depends on libdebian-installer4 (>= 0.97)

- main-menu udeb package depends on libdebian-installer4-udeb (>= 0.101)

But the version of both 'libdebian-installer-extra4' and 
'libdebian-installer-extra4-udeb' in Devuan's repository is 
0.99+deb8u1. The sources of the package are right, becase 
debian/changelog says:


libdebian-installer (0.97) unstable; urgency=low

and debian/control:

Depends: ${shlibs:Depends}, ${misc:Depends}, libdebian-installer4 (= 
${binary:Version})
Depends: ${shlibs:Depends}, ${misc:Depends}, libdebian-installer4-udeb 
(= ${binary:Version})


for each package (libdebian-installer-extra4 and 
libdebian-installer-extra4-udeb, respectively). However, the versions 
of them in the repository (=0.99+deb8u1) don't correspond with the 
sources (=0.97).


This fact would be the origin of the issue.

Aitor.

On 14/10/15 21:29, Godefridus Daalmans  wrote:

Hi,
>
>a short update: Now I added the debian-installer component to my
>experimental live DVD, and I can try to do an installation, but it
>screws up in "installing the base system"
>
>INFO: Menu item 'bootstrap-base' selected
>base-installer: error: exiting on error
>base-installer/debootstrap-failed
>WARNING **: Configuring 'bootstrap-base' failed with error code 1
>WARNING **: Menu item 'bootstrap-base' failed.
>
>on the installation screen, it complained about the checksum of
>debian-installer/Packages.gz and debian-installer/Packages
>
>This seems to be a recurring error over the years with Debian and
>Ubuntu...
>
>I verified the MD5 checksums and they are all OK, so that's not the
>*real*   problem.
>
>Any hints??
>
>Frits


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[DNG] /run/network/ifstate parsing

2015-10-16 Thread Edward Bartolo 
In the event, 'ip -o link' return a false negative, that is, when
there is a connection, but for some reason it is a zombie connection,
I am thinking about parsing /run/network/ifstate to decide whether a
device should be connected.

This will be used to disconnect 'zombie connections'. As it is, netman
and the backend, refuse to disconnect a connection if the latter does
not exist or if it is mistakenly reported as inexistent by 'ip -o
link'.

Edward
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[DNG] Detailed technical treatise of systemd

2015-10-16 Thread richard white 
All,

A detailed technical treatise of systemd
http://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2015/10/11/0/

-Rich
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Re: [DNG] Detailed technical treatise of systemd

2015-10-16 Thread dev 
Meh. I enjoy the beautiful simplicity and stability of Devuan Alpha 2. I 
hope it only gets better. It is how Linux is meant to be.

Go Devuan!!

On 10/16/2015 10:38 AM, richard white wrote:

All,

A detailed technical treatise of systemd
http://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2015/10/11/0/

-Rich


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Re: [DNG] Detailed technical treatise of systemd

2015-10-16 Thread Hendrik Boom 
On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 11:38:14AM -0400, richard white wrote:
> All,
> 
> A detailed technical treatise of systemd
> http://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2015/10/11/0/
> 
> -Rich

There's some discussion of this taking place at Soylent News:
https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=15/10/15/1347246

-- hendrik
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[DNG] upgrade 16/10/2015 xorg fails to start

2015-10-16 Thread Rob 
After upgrade tonight came out of Xorg to restart openbox.

I tried to start Xorg but it failed with "xf86OpenConsole cannot open /dev/tty0 
( no such file or directory)

/dev/tty0 was there so assumed permission problem. Temporarily added my user to 
tty group and tried again.

This time Xorg failed to start with "xf86OpenConsole cannot open Virtual 
Console 7 ( permisson denied.)

How to resolve?

Xorg.log below

Thanks

Rob

[ 5450.132]
X.Org X Server 1.17.2
Release Date: 2015-06-16
[ 5450.132] X Protocol Version 11, Revision 0
[ 5450.132] Build Operating System: Linux 4.2.0-1-amd64 x86_64 Debian
[ 5450.132] Current Operating System: Linux debian 3.18.5preempt #1 SMP PREEMPT 
Tue Feb 3 21:18:50 GMT 2015 x86_64
[ 5450.132] Kernel command line: BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/vmlinuz-3.18.5preempt 
root=/dev/sda1 ro
[ 5450.132] Build Date: 06 October 2015 07:27:47AM
[ 5450.132] xorg-server 2:1.17.2-3 (http://www.debian.org/support)
[ 5450.132] Current version of pixman: 0.33.2
[ 5450.132] Before reporting problems, check http://wiki.x.org
to make sure that you have the latest version.
[ 5450.132] Markers: (--) probed, (**) from config file, (==) default setting,
(++) from command line, (!!) notice, (II) informational,
(WW) warning, (EE) error, (NI) not implemented, (??) unknown.
[ 5450.133] (==) Log file: "/home/rob/.local/share/xorg/Xorg.0.log", Time: Fri 
Oct 16 23:40:02 2015
[ 5450.133] (==) Using system config directory "/usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d"
[ 5450.133] (==) No Layout section. Using the first Screen section.
[ 5450.133] (==) No screen section available. Using defaults.
[ 5450.133] (**) |-->Screen "Default Screen Section" (0)
[ 5450.133] (**) | |-->Monitor ""
[ 5450.133] (==) No monitor specified for screen "Default Screen Section".
Using a default monitor configuration.
[ 5450.133] (==) Automatically adding devices
[ 5450.133] (==) Automatically enabling devices
[ 5450.133] (==) Automatically adding GPU devices
[ 5450.133] (WW) The directory "/usr/share/fonts/X11/cyrillic" does not exist.
[ 5450.133] Entry deleted from font path.
[ 5450.133] (==) FontPath set to:
/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc,
/usr/share/fonts/X11/100dpi/:unscaled,
/usr/share/fonts/X11/75dpi/:unscaled,
/usr/share/fonts/X11/Type1,
/usr/share/fonts/X11/100dpi,
/usr/share/fonts/X11/75dpi,
built-ins
[ 5450.133] (==) ModulePath set to "/usr/lib/xorg/modules"
[ 5450.133] (II) The server relies on udev to provide the list of input devices.
If no devices become available, reconfigure udev or disable AutoAddDevices.
[ 5450.133] (II) Loader magic: 0x7f18511c4de0
[ 5450.133] (II) Module ABI versions:
[ 5450.133] X.Org ANSI C Emulation: 0.4
[ 5450.133] X.Org Video Driver: 19.0
[ 5450.133] X.Org XInput driver : 21.0
[ 5450.133] X.Org Server Extension : 9.0
[ 5450.134] (EE) systemd-logind: failed to get session: The name 
org.freedesktop.login1 was not provided by any .service files
[ 5450.134] (II) xfree86: Adding drm device (/dev/dri/card0)
[ 5450.134] (EE) /dev/dri/card0: failed to set DRM interface version 1.4: 
Permission denied
[ 5450.136] (--) PCI:*(0:1:0:0) 10de:1381:19da:2346 rev 162, Mem @ 
0xfd00/16777216, 0xc000/268435456, 0xd000/33554432, I/O @ 
0xe000/128, BIOS @ 0x/524288
[ 5450.136] (II) LoadModule: "glx"
[ 5450.136] (II) Loading /usr/lib/xorg/modules/linux/libglx.so
[ 5450.147] (II) Module glx: vendor="NVIDIA Corporation"
[ 5450.147] compiled for 4.0.2, module version = 1.0.0
[ 5450.147] Module class: X.Org Server Extension
[ 5450.147] (II) NVIDIA GLX Module 340.93 Wed Aug 19 16:23:51 PDT 2015
[ 5450.147] (==) Matched nouveau as autoconfigured driver 0
[ 5450.147] (==) Matched nv as autoconfigured driver 1
[ 5450.147] (==) Matched modesetting as autoconfigured driver 2
[ 5450.147] (==) Matched fbdev as autoconfigured driver 3
[ 5450.147] (==) Matched vesa as autoconfigured driver 4
[ 5450.147] (==) Assigned the driver to the xf86ConfigLayout
[ 5450.147] (II) LoadModule: "nouveau"
[ 5450.147] (II) Loading /usr/lib/xorg/modules/drivers/nouveau_drv.so
[ 5450.147] (II) Module nouveau: vendor="X.Org Foundation"
[ 5450.147] compiled for 1.17.1, module version = 1.0.11
[ 5450.147] Module class: X.Org Video Driver
[ 5450.147] ABI class: X.Org Video Driver, version 19.0
[ 5450.147] (II) LoadModule: "nv"
[ 5450.148] (WW) Warning, couldn't open module nv
[ 5450.148] (II) UnloadModule: "nv"
[ 5450.148] (II) Unloading nv
[ 5450.148] (EE) Failed to load module "nv" (module does not exist, 0)
[ 5450.148] (II) LoadModule: "modesetting"
[ 5450.148] (II) Loading /usr/lib/xorg/modules/drivers/modesetting_drv.so
[ 5450.148] (II) Module modesetting: vendor="X.Org Foundation"
[ 5450.148] compiled for 1.17.2, module version = 1.17.2
[ 5450.148] Module class: X.Org Video Driver
[ 5450.148] ABI class: X.Org Video Driver, version 19.0
[ 5450.148] (II) LoadModule: "fbdev"
[ 5450.148] (II) Loading /usr/lib/xorg/modules/drivers/fbdev_drv.so
[ 5450.148] (II) Module fbdev: vendor="X.Org Foundation"
[ 5450.148] compiled for 1.17.1, module version =

Re: [DNG] Detailed technical treatise of systemd

2015-10-16 Thread Roger Leigh 

On 16/10/2015 23:09, Neo Futur wrote:

A couple days back, I was playing with Trinity on a PCLinuxOS live CD.
Starting the applications **from the CD** was faster than doing the same
from a KDE4 desktop *from an SSD*.  At the time, I recall GNOME2 and KDE3
being slower than their earlier incarnations, but the sheer bloat and
inefficiency of the current forms of all these desktops is incredible.  In
Trinity, I was shocked that I could click on System->Konsole and get a
terminal... not in a second or two, or even half a second, but right there
and then.

  confirmed ! and theres another important point usability and
intuitivity, I very often install linux to new users who never used
linux before, everytime i installed them a kde4, they were completely
lost at first, then tried to customize it their way and broke it all,
then I put kde3/trinity and they re happy and never need me again ;)


I'd go as far as to say that KDE3 was for me the pinnacle of desktop 
usability.  It was clean, discoverable, configurable, and was a coherent 
and consistent interface from the window manager to the file manager and 
all the applications.  It was very professionally done, a real credit to 
all the developers who worked on it, and an absolute pleasure to use. 
It's quite sad that it's all been downhill from this point on, not just 
for KDE but for all of its contemporary peers.


I switched to KDE4 with Debian, but it felt subjectively far slower, and 
I never got the point of activities, hated akonadi, and while the UI 
looked nice it never felt quite as right as KDE3, which fit like a 
glove.  The current stuff is almost unusable.



Regards,
Roger
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Re: [DNG] Detailed technical treatise of systemd

2015-10-16 Thread Rainer Weikusat 
richard white  writes:
> A detailed technical treatise of systemd
> http://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2015/10/11/0/

A little bit off topic in the given context but something I feel like
mentioning as 'data point' for our friends from "my laptop's my castle"
front: A certain real-world system I happen to know of writes in excess
of 20G of diagnostic logs per day for the sole purpose of enabling
post-mortem analysis of problems insofar problems occur. As they usually
don't, the only required processing for all of this data is "write it to
a file". This alone accounts for 1/10 to 1/6 of the used CPU time on
this box.
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